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Mark Hall wrote:

Tor wrote:Without knowing how thick a layer or how wide a line, I don't see how we could possibly estimate the blood needed for summoning circles.

Heck, in higher-tech settings they probably have 'blood pens' that substitute blood for ink and allow you to draw super-thin lines.

Even in PF though, I could see someone using a quill dipped in blood rather than a paintbrush if they really wanted to conserve supplies.

It'd be nice if there were some rules on how hard it was to scuff out a circle. You could make it harder for thicker lines or multiple thick layers of blood.

In the MoM manuscript, I ruled that an active circle more or less required deliberate scuffing to scuff but, barring specific actions to protect, could be scuffed out easily... otherwise, summon elemental forces had a good chance to cancel itself out as you call down a thunderstorm and find your iron dust washed away.

I also had some rules about recovering components. Wish the stuff I'd written had seen the light of day.

Sumoners can use all the binding agent tricks same as the Diabolist uses for wards (glue, wax and what not) to help keep components from blowing around and washing away. Once activated, the magic circle remains functioning indefinitely; all components are magically kept fresh!

You have to delibrately try to destroy a circle to make it not work. Either by washing away and scrubbing over 50% of the circle (Which is a lot). Accidentally kicking a portion of the symbols or smugging the lines will not do anything once it is activated.

Only removing a major componet (like the gems from the elemental circle) really has a chance to deactivate it. A summoner can deactivate it by pumping in PPE. However, I wouldn't understand why he would burn half the PPE he to took to make the circle to deactivate it; since a srub brush, soap and water will do the same thing.

Lukterran wrote:Only removing a major componet (like the gems from the elemental circle) really has a chance to deactivate it. A summoner can deactivate it by pumping in PPE. However, I wouldn't understand why he would burn half the PPE he to took to make the circle to deactivate it; since a srub brush, soap and water will do the same thing.

Time. If you've got to leave in a hurry, and don't want to leave active circles behind, you might have time to deactivate, but not to destroy.

My Circles get magically reinforced when they are made, so even if its drawn in blood it wont just wash away by a bucket of water. The lines have 3 sdc per level of creator generally, and if you break them they explode and do the level of the creater d6 magic damage to everything within 50ft (sometimes bigger or smaller depending on circle). Blowing it up, Deactivating it and killing the maker are the 3 main ways to turn off a circle in my games.

Lukterran wrote: Accidentally kicking a portion of the symbols or smugging the lines will not do anything once it is activated.

Tell that to the demon that is being trapped by a properly drawn circle... smudging the line is basically signing the summoners death sentence.

That happens a lot in stories and such, but is specifically not what has been stated for summoning circles in Palladium Fantasy.

In regards to the Summon Elemental Forces circle, what you get out of it is a couple of Warlock spells that are high level and REALLY nasty. There isnt anything to resist your control, unless you just want to throw 3/5 D20s for no apparent reason. How do you assign an ME to a will-less spell? Tornado is one of the spells you can use with the circle, and you CAN lose control of it, but remember that the circle protects you from it as well (just not any of your friends standing outside of it).

Also, we have examples of circles lasting hundreds of years, being covered in muck and other such things. I agree with the sentiment that there must be an act of intention/will required to actually destroy a circle. The rain from your own rainstorm shouldn't do it, unless that was what you intended.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

Lukterran wrote:The industry standard for paint coverage is 350 ft² per gallon.
There are 128 fl. oz. in a gallon, so 1 fl. oz. will cover (350/128) = 2.734 ft².
There are 144 in² per ft², so multiply: (2.734 ft²)(144 in²/ft²) = 393.7 in². (Round this to 393 or 394 in² as you see fit.) So now we know how much 1 fl. oz of paint covers.

Except we're not talking paint, we're talking blood.
Viscosity of latex house paint is about 1500 centipoise. Blood is about 3.
[snip]

It isn't necessarily a question of viscosity, though. Heavy body paints--used in thick, impasto artwork--are still able to be brushed to films of about 5 mils (or less). A 5 mil film is what gives you coverage of 300-400 square feet per gallon. I would need a more convincing argument than just viscosity why a material can't create a thin film. (Yeah, yeah, paint mediums tend to be thixotropic. Hush.) Just goobering it on wont get you very far, but taking a semi-enormous amount of time to work it out thin is a different matter altogether.

It is worth noting that "[o]ne's actual coverage will vary and greatly depends on how smooth or absorbent a surface is, as well as how it is prepared and primed." I have this devilish grin thinking about "Well, you forgot to prepare and prime the surface, sooo...."

Juggling skills.

Starmage21 wrote:In regards to the Summon Elemental Forces circle, what you get out of it is a couple of Warlock spells that are high level and REALLY nasty. There isnt anything to resist your control, unless you just want to throw 3/5 D20s for no apparent reason. How do you assign an ME to a will-less spell?

The ME of the suummoned creature or force isn't directly in question; it can add bonuses, but it's not the thing checked against.

I guess I figured you need a will to resist a battle of it... so at least a ME of 1, something like wind seems like ME 0.

Mark Hall wrote:

Starmage21 wrote:In regards to the Summon Elemental Forces circle, what you get out of it is a couple of Warlock spells that are high level and REALLY nasty. There isnt anything to resist your control, unless you just want to throw 3/5 D20s for no apparent reason. How do you assign an ME to a will-less spell?

The ME of the summoned creature or force isn't directly in question; it can add bonuses, but it's not the thing checked against.

So here is a somewhat divergent line of thinking around your paradigm for that circle:

What happens if you fail the battle of wills? Do you automatically summon an uncontrolled Tornado spell? Does nothing happen? I ask because with the entity summoning circles you get an uncontrolled being and that could be bad to very bad depending on circumstances, but that circle really just summons what is apparently spells.

Also, what about a 1st level Summoner who uses that circle? Do the spells count as major or minor against their control limit and thus automatically fail?

Starmage21 wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Starmage21 wrote:In regards to the Summon Elemental Forces circle, what you get out of it is a couple of Warlock spells that are high level and REALLY nasty. There isnt anything to resist your control, unless you just want to throw 3/5 D20s for no apparent reason. How do you assign an ME to a will-less spell?

The ME of the summoned creature or force isn't directly in question; it can add bonuses, but it's not the thing checked against.

So here is a somewhat divergent line of thinking around your paradigm for that circle:

What happens if you fail the battle of wills? Do you automatically summon an uncontrolled Tornado spell? Does nothing happen? I ask because with the entity summoning circles you get an uncontrolled being and that could be bad to very bad depending on circumstances, but that circle really just summons what is apparently spells.

Also, what about a 1st level Summoner who uses that circle? Do the spells count as major or minor against their control limit and thus automatically fail?

You are summoning just spells!

No battle of wills. No limitation controls because it is just a "magical force" and not an intellegent being that your are calling upon. The other circle for the creation of stone ships is different. It summons an "Elemental force" which is basically a larger elemental than a Major since it can break up to be a dozen or so Major Elementals. Since in no context could a summoner ever control that many major being under control limitations this obviously isn't calling upon the same "Elemental Force" that is described in that High Seas book.

Earth Force
Alignment : Unintelligent Anarchist
Size: 50 to 85 feet long (before shaping)
A.R.: 17
Hit Points: 200 to 320
S.D.C.: 2300 to 4600
Average P.P.E.: 6D6x20
Number or Attacks (when control is lost): Thrashing does 1D6x10 damage and will affect a 20x20 foot (6x6 m) area per melee round. When control is lost. the Earth Force becomes the equivalent of a River of Lava (Earth Elemental Spell. see Palladium RPG. 2nd edition. page 232). doing 4D6+ 10 damage to anyone coming in contact with it. It also creates an area of heat. such that anyone within 500 feet ( 152 m) failing to save against P.E.. will take 1D6 points of damage per melee round! If attacked. every 50 or more points of damage has a 25% chance of causing the Earth Force to break up into 2D4 Major Earth Elementals! Each a giant mound of molten rock.

If it`s not... then I want to figure out how to summon that thing, but I guess that might be like trying to control a demon lord or a god.

Back when I was Gming, one of my players was a summoner. Over the course of his career, he got more depraved and twisted, all in the quest for power. It became somewhat of a game for me to see how low I could make him sink. He had a nasty habit of losing control of the powerful entities he summoned, but instead of killing him, they would offer him knowledge/power/magical weapons etc. in exchange for him mutilating himself for their entertainment.

He gouged out his own left eyeball and ate it, sawed off his own right hand and testicle, split his tongue like a snakes, chopped off the pinky digit of his right hand and both feet. Gave up his appendix, 6 feet of his lower intestines (which he was forced to cook and eat) and pulled out 10 of his own teeth with a pair of pliers. In the end, he became so evil and wracked with insanities that the rest of the party was forced to kill him.

Then I took him over as an NPC. I can’t remember the exact detail of his creation, but his soul was put into a 1/2 demon 1/2 Deevil hybrid offspring of a Deevil and Demon Lord, who had some master plan to overthrow both Hades and Dyval and rule them as a pair of forbidder lovers. He broke free of the control of his “parents”, amassed an army of fallen demons and Deevils and went on a rampage across the megaverse the likes of which it had never seen.

In case you are wondering, my campaign started out as a simple palladium fantasy and over the course of 15 years evolved into an epic PF/Rifts/ 3 galaxies crossover campaign.

The summoners name? Selcric, which is Circles spelled backwards.

Ahhh, the good old day...

Suicycho wrote:Back when I was Gming, one of my players was a summoner. Over the course of his career, he got more depraved and twisted, all in the quest for power. It became somewhat of a game for me to see how low I could make him sink. He had a nasty habit of losing control of the powerful entities he summoned, but instead of killing him, they would offer him knowledge/power/magical weapons etc. in exchange for him mutilating himself for their entertainment.

He gouged out his own left eyeball and ate it, sawed off his own right hand and testicle, split his tongue like a snakes, chopped off the pinky digit of his right hand and both feet. Gave up his appendix, 6 feet of his lower intestines (which he was forced to cook and eat) and pulled out 10 of his own teeth with a pair of pliers. In the end, he became so evil and wracked with insanities that the rest of the party was forced to kill him.

Then I took him over as an NPC. I can’t remember the exact detail of his creation, but his soul was put into a 1/2 demon 1/2 Deevil hybrid offspring of a Deevil and Demon Lord, who had some master plan to overthrow both Hades and Dyval and rule them as a pair of forbidder lovers. He broke free of the control of his “parents”, amassed an army of fallen demons and Deevils and went on a rampage across the megaverse the likes of which it had never seen.

In case you are wondering, my campaign started out as a simple palladium fantasy and over the course of 15 years evolved into an epic PF/Rifts/ 3 galaxies crossover campaign.

The summoners name? Selcric, which is Circles spelled backwards.

Ahhh, the good old day...

Rule #1 when playing a Summoner never lose control over your servants. Never give them order too much outside of their nature that they get bonuses vs battle of wills, never keep them undercontrol long enough for them to get another battle of wills, and if possible never allow a summoned minion to live! They can't come back and get revenge against you if they are destroyed.
Rule #2 have a back up plan to deal with them, if and when you lose control. An A, B, C....plan to take them out. This is where having a diabolist as a friend becomes invaluable!

Starmage21 wrote:So here is a somewhat divergent line of thinking around your paradigm for that circle:

What happens if you fail the battle of wills? Do you automatically summon an uncontrolled Tornado spell? Does nothing happen? I ask because with the entity summoning circles you get an uncontrolled being and that could be bad to very bad depending on circumstances, but that circle really just summons what is apparently spells.

Also, what about a 1st level Summoner who uses that circle? Do the spells count as major or minor against their control limit and thus automatically fail?

I count the Elemental forces as minor, because they're not called out as major. When you summon it and lack control, you say what you're going for, THEN check for your ability to control it. You fail, and you're dealing with an uncontrolled tornado if you called for a tornado... treat it as if an uninvolved 3rd party cast the spells, who not allied (or specifically opposed) to any of the parties on the field.

Suicycho wrote:Back when I was Gming, one of my players was a summoner. Over the course of his career, he got more depraved and twisted, all in the quest for power. It became somewhat of a game for me to see how low I could make him sink. He had a nasty habit of losing control of the powerful entities he summoned, but instead of killing him, they would offer him knowledge/power/magical weapons etc. in exchange for him mutilating himself for their entertainment.

Wow. That's pretty awesome. Messed up. But awesome.

Mark Hall wrote:
I count the Elemental forces as minor, because they're not called out as major. When you summon it and lack control, you say what you're going for, THEN check for your ability to control it. You fail, and you're dealing with an uncontrolled tornado if you called for a tornado... treat it as if an uninvolved 3rd party cast the spells, who not allied (or specifically opposed) to any of the parties on the field.

You don't need a control limitation. Control limitation are already built into the description of the circle. Is is not a minor or major entity.

"ONE elemental magic can be cast every minute (4 melee rounds)."
"As many as one elemental force per level of the circle maker can co-exist with others."

I could see maybe rolling a battle of wills once just to get the circle to work. (But that is not in the rules) However, one battle of wills for every spell casting is too much. Again you are not summoning a creature. It is only channeling elemental enegies into spell magic.

Lukterran wrote:I could see maybe rolling a battle of wills once just to get the circle to work. (But that is not in the rules) However, one battle of wills for every spell casting is too much. Again you are not summoning a creature. It is only channeling elemental enegies into spell magic.

It is not out of the rules, either, Lukterran; that SEF doesn't require a battle of wills is your interpretation. We've had this discussion before; I don't think you're right. You haven't provided any new evidence that sways me from thinking that Summon Elemental Forces requires a battle of wills like every other summoning circle. I wouldn't get upset at a GM ruling that Elemental Forces doesn't require a battle of wills, but I haven't seen any evidence that excludes it from the general rules about summoned creatures or forces requiring a battle of wills.

And I didn't mean to imply that I would require a battle of wills for each effect; just the first, and subsequent if you tried to keep things going too long (i.e. according to the usual battle of wills rules).

Mark Hall wrote:And I didn't mean to imply that I would require a battle of wills for each effect; just the first, and subsequent if you tried to keep things going too long (i.e. according to the usual battle of wills rules).

The power isn't a creature, and the creature decides when its going to try to do a battle of wills, because if it waits it gets +1 to save per month of waiting, so does it automatically try each month or does it bide its time to get its bonus, because the bonus resets every time it fails to break free, and then is it major or minor, for the amount of time between breakout attempts, and it only gets 1d4 attempts to break free as it has no ME score. Someone with a high ME could keep this circle going indefinitely easily as it doesn't really fit the summon creature description. How does something without intelligence decide to do something because to break free the summoned creature has to decide to do it, and once its 1d4 attempts are done its permanently a slave, barring someone forcing it to commit suicide (lol) or do something against its alignment (more lol). This circle needs to be moved to power circles.

kiralon wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:And I didn't mean to imply that I would require a battle of wills for each effect; just the first, and subsequent if you tried to keep things going too long (i.e. according to the usual battle of wills rules).

The power isn't a creature, and the creature decides when its going to try to do a battle of wills, because if it waits it gets +1 to save per month of waiting, so does it automatically try each month or does it bide its time to get its bonus, because the bonus resets every time it fails to break free, and then is it major or minor, for the amount of time between breakout attempts, and it only gets 1d4 attempts to break free as it has no ME score. Someone with a high ME could keep this circle going indefinitely easily as it doesn't really fit the summon creature description. How does something without intelligence decide to do something because to break free the summoned creature has to decide to do it, and once its 1d4 attempts are done its permanently a slave, barring someone forcing it to commit suicide (lol) or do something against its alignment (more lol). This circle needs to be moved to power circles.

I agree, it makes a whole lot more sense as a power circle. However, it got put into Summoning Circles, and summoning circles specify that forces get a battle of wills. I'd probably go with it resists you 1d4 times, but I think the alternative, that it does not resist your control, makes the circle too powerful, conflicts with the mechanics given for summoning, and doesn't really "work" with the cinematics of summoning powerful elemental forces.

I would be interested to know why the circle was created in the first place by Kevin. Obviously there is already a Summon Elementals circle, which according to Mark's interruption, would make this almost pointless if a battle of wills is needed. Just summoning an elemental would be better. Summoning an elemental is more powerful, can cast more spells at greater effect, and can aid in combat and isn't limited in spell casting rate than what can be done with this circle. The only advantage you would get is being able to cast spells from multiple elements.

I am assuming that it was reason it was created was to give the summoner a limited amount of spell casting ability automatic to the class, without needing to know an actual power circle. I think this circle was designed to be little bit overpowered. I believe was to compensate for the number of limiting factors.

1. It takes a very long time to create a circle and complete the ritual.
2. You need all the components and sacrifice.
3. It is stationary - (a summoned elemental is not stationary and can travel with the summoner after being summoned and not locked down to one location)
4. It has a set number of maximum spells that summoner can cast and a limited rate to the spells cast (once per minute is very slow)

Summoning an elemental also has the disadvantage that elementals dislike being held for a long time, and will work against a summoner if given a reason to (i.e. long captivity, faced with a warlock). SEF not only avoids the problems of dealing with elementals, but also adds potent defense against all elemental magic (summon elementals offers far less, and only against the magic of elementals themselves, not all elemental magic), and immunity to the effects of the magic.

If the Summoner uses SEF to create an earthquake or a tornado, he's completely protected from these. If someone else casts these spells at him, he's +3 to save and takes only half effect even if he fails the save. If he uses Summon True Elementals, he gets a +3 to save, but only if the magic is cast at him by an elemental (not a warlock or any being the GM judges "not elemental"), and failing his save exposes him to the full effect.

As for "It takes a long time to create a circle and complete the ritual" and "need all the components and sacrifice"... well, those hold true of the Summon Elemental circle. They're different tools, with different uses.

Stationary isnt a limitation either. With this circle, you really only need it big enough to hold the small sized components and for you to stand in. Carve it into the back of a wagon that you're adventuring with.

I like Summon Elemental Forces as a power circle, As a summoning circle that may or may not require a battle of wills, the ruling potentially takes something away from the Summoner that they could use at level 1. Protection Circles are awesome...for protecting your camp at night. Assuming that we DO require a battle of wills and a control requirement (that the summoner does NOT get at level 1), that relegates the Summoner to their meager skill selection, HtH: Expert if they picked it, and not a whole lot to do with a large battery of PPE except to fuel a caster that actually has spells.

Really hoping Mark's manuscript for MoM 2: Electric Boogaloo has something for summoners to do with all that PPE between circle drawings.

Mark Hall wrote:As for "It takes a long time to create a circle and complete the ritual" and "need all the components and sacrifice"... well, those hold true of the Summon Elemental circle. They're different tools, with different uses.

Yes true, about both circles having the same requirements - But if you summon an Major Earth elemental you can bring him along with you and continue using him for days and weeks. While traveling hundreds of miles and doing dungeon crawling or whatever else. So a one time sacrifice and PPE use and the time and effort for a circle creation really goes a long way.

Plus you can do the Elemental summoning long before you really ever "need" to use its magic.

The SEF on the other hand is only good at the single location. So you will have to take the time to make a new circle and use up the magical energy along with components and sacrifices if you want to use the circle again anywhere else. Also in the times when you really wish you had a tornado or equake spell on hand it is kind of untimely to tell the orc horde charging down the hill to raid the town to hold off while you take an 30 minutes to and hour to perform a ritual.

You are complaining that a hammer is not a saw.

The game obviously doesn't have this circle, or a lot of towns would be earthquaked, tornado messes. As there is no way to find out who is casting the spells the summoner makes the circle 2 miles out of town, comes to town and destroys it, then moves to next town. Rinse and repeat.

Mark Hall wrote:You are complaining that a hammer is not a saw.

So Mark what is your point? ....lol

Mark Hall wrote: I ruled that an active circle more or less required deliberate scuffing to scuff
otherwise, summon elemental forces had a good chance to cancel itself out as you call down a thunderstorm and find your iron dust washed away.

Couldn't you just aim the storm at areas outside the circle?

I could see the risk if you were at the bottom of a valley and the water aimed elsewhere ran downhill at you...

But you would be fine if you made the circle at the top of a hill or something.

kiralon wrote:The game obviously doesn't have this circle, or a lot of towns would be earthquaked, tornado messes. As there is no way to find out who is casting the spells the summoner makes the circle 2 miles out of town, comes to town and destroys it, then moves to next town. Rinse and repeat.

The game has it, every summoner can make this circle.

It is for us to discern why towns continue to exist in spite of such massive power existing in the hands of summoners.

The majority of Summoners simply wouldn't do this because there's not necessarily going to be anything in it for them to just destroy some town. What do they gain?

They are also not immune to discovery. There should be ways to find out if a Summoner is planning mass destruction like this (Oracle, Clairvoyance) or to discern who cast the magic after the destruction ends, and anyone engaging in this behavior would probably be hunted down.

Someone who would do this would seem pretty evil so maybe this is why evil people get hunted down a lot.

Clairavoyance and Oracle are the magic and psionic version of the same thing, and if the summoner wears a mask you wont be able ID him even if you are lucky enough to get a vision of him, and even if you do ID him and he travels around disguised you will still have a hell of a time finding him.

And evil might be part of the reason, revenge or being at war.
e.g. 6 summoners from the middle kingdoms of the western empire go to Caer Itom and the military bases and level them, since they can just walk around and bring the pain a little bit of preparation on their behalf makes them close to unstoppable as there isn't anything in the game as written to stop them. This falls back on the no magic defences for buildings issue, the cities are just earth cities transplanted into a magic world mostly, as the things that would have evolved to let them exist haven't.
I have forensic mages in my world basically to help catch the people who do this, but there isn't a whole lot you can do to stop it once it starts, except anti magic cloud, and that is limited in area and duration. A summoner with a grudge could wipe most eastern towns off the map.
Its just way too easy to do for the damage it causes.

Tor wrote:

Mark Hall wrote: I ruled that an active circle more or less required deliberate scuffing to scuff
otherwise, summon elemental forces had a good chance to cancel itself out as you call down a thunderstorm and find your iron dust washed away.

Couldn't you just aim the storm at areas outside the circle?

I could see the risk if you were at the bottom of a valley and the water aimed elsewhere ran downhill at you...

But you would be fine if you made the circle at the top of a hill or something.

I would assume that the circle is impervious to the magics it creates just like it makes all those inside its radius immune to those same magics.

"Characters within the area of the circle's protection are +3 to save vs all elemental magic, and those who fail to save suffer half damage and the magical duration and effects are half as potent. Plus they are impervious to the elemental forces summoned by the circle."

Just to play Deevil advocate here, even though they may be forbidden inherently from attacking their master, acts that do not do them harm like sneaking a look at the face of their master as they sleep would have to be explicitly forbidden to stop them from doing that on their own.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

Lukterran wrote:The industry standard for paint coverage is 350 ft² per gallon.
There are 128 fl. oz. in a gallon, so 1 fl. oz. will cover (350/128) = 2.734 ft².
There are 144 in² per ft², so multiply: (2.734 ft²)(144 in²/ft²) = 393.7 in². (Round this to 393 or 394 in² as you see fit.) So now we know how much 1 fl. oz of paint covers.

Except we're not talking paint, we're talking blood.
Viscosity of latex house paint is about 1500 centipoise. Blood is about 3.

Initial Viscosity doesn't necessarily mean how much you need to use to cover something. This is coming from some one who has experience in both painting and having to deal with blood on stuff. Blood likes to stick on stuff why, clotting factor. I also know that I can get with a bloody nose get pretty creative in what gets drawn on walls or floors. Also remember that although summoning circles do require to be complete, they are also stated to be fragile and most summoner like them easily removed to avoid evidence of they being their you know when they are not at their lab.