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Tor wrote:I've never got how ramjet rounds are so cheap yet supposedly rare. Something that cheap would be in very high demand as an easy-access MD infliction means. Maybe they are just expensive to transport so they are only found cheaply in certain locations where they are made? Maybe the jet fuel explodes if transported on bumpy terrain? *reaching for explanations*

They maybe rare, but the demand may not be present for them which drives cost down (ie cheap) since compared to other options they aren't nearly as effective (WI explosive rounds are cheaper/comparable and they do better damage).

Tor wrote:I've never got how ramjet rounds are so cheap yet supposedly rare. Something that cheap would be in very high demand as an easy-access MD infliction means. Maybe they are just expensive to transport so they are only found cheaply in certain locations where they are made? Maybe the jet fuel explodes if transported on bumpy terrain? *reaching for explanations*

My take on it is that they are a relatively recent technology with a single manufacturer who doesn't have the means yet to satisfy the market. Once other manufacturers recognize the demand, expect the market to be flooded with similar products.

Personally, until the APRJ came out, I never saw ramjets as particularly inexpensive for the damage they do. As such, I didn't expect demand to be very high.

--flatline

ShadowLogan wrote:the demand may not be present for them which drives cost down (ie cheap) since compared to other options they aren't nearly as effective

The ability to instantly kill most SDC beings (save bulky guys like juicers) is very valuable. As is the ability to do so with an inconspicuous weapon (people fear MD energy weapons, they might allow people to carry SDC firearms around though) and a cheap weapon (look at how many creds it costs to buy an MD energy weapon vs an SDC weapon)

I don't expect top-tier warriors with loads of wealth to be forming the core market of ramjet round purchasers (although it is still a good cost-saving idea) but rather poor people, who are going to be a much higher number.

ShadowLogan wrote:WI explosive rounds are cheaper/comparable and they do better damage

Nope, looking to Mercs 103 you need to use a burst of 20 explosive to inflict MD using explosive rounds while Ramjets can inflict MD using a single round.

The semantic classification for the WI-2E throws me off a bit:
*it gives MD for 20 round bursts from (1) sub machine guns (2) assault rifles (3) heavy machine guns
*it lists black market costs for (1) pistol bullets (2) rifle cartridge (3) heavy machine gun rounds

3 matches up perfectly. 2 is an easy "rifle must mean assault rifle" and 1 threw me off until I remembered reading in HU or something that machineguns use pistol ammo (however most pistols could not fire a 20 round burst).

It costs you 40 credits to inflict MD with explosive rounds (a sub machine burst) giving an average of 2.5 MD. For that amount you can buy at least 4 Ramjet rounds (possibly double) giving you 4 MD.

Where the Ramjet lags behind when bursting. A 20-round WI-10 burst's average 5 MD costs you 100-200 credits. You could get the same damage from firing 2 bursts from WI-2E via pistol rounds in a sub-machine gun and it would only cost you 80 credits.

When comparing Machine Guns though, the WI-20 needs comparing. A 20-round burst of explosive rounds gives average 7 MD for the cost of 120 credits. Ignoring the 12 MD you could get from WI-10s, spending this on WI-20s would give you 8 to 12 shots, or an average of 20 or 30 MD.

Aimed shots are always more efficient though, so let's compare the 40-round WI-20 burst. A burst will cost you 400 to 600 credits and net you average 17.5 MD. For this price you could buy 66 to 100 heavy machine-gun WI-2E rounds. This would net you 3 to 5 bursts, for an average of 21 to 35 MD. So again: Ram-Jets fall behind in cost economy while bursting, but fall ahead in cost-economy when firing single shots.

WI-2Es cannot reliably inflict MD with single shots. The tripling damage does make it possible for higher-tier weapons. We are told that 5.56mm do 2d4x10 (compare RMBp255 the M16A1 assault rifle normally does 4d6, so boost from average 14 to average 50)

Heavy Machine-Guns have a higher enough per-shot damage to surpass 100 when tripled (7d6 max 42 becomes 126) but I'm not even sure if any machine-guns CAN fire single shots (they would make great sniper rifles if they could, epic range). Pretty sure I saw in at least one core book a rule preventing machine guns from firing single shots. Not sure about sub-machine guns. Pretty confident autopistols can still fire single shots.

ShadowLogan wrote:the demand may not be present for them which drives cost down (ie cheap) since compared to other options they aren't nearly as effective

The ability to instantly kill most SDC beings (save bulky guys like juicers) is very valuable. As is the ability to do so with an inconspicuous weapon (people fear MD energy weapons, they might allow people to carry SDC firearms around though) and a cheap weapon (look at how many creds it costs to buy an MD energy weapon vs an SDC weapon)

I don't expect top-tier warriors with loads of wealth to be forming the core market of ramjet round purchasers (although it is still a good cost-saving idea) but rather poor people, who are going to be a much higher number.

ShadowLogan wrote:WI explosive rounds are cheaper/comparable and they do better damage

Nope, looking to Mercs 103 you need to use a burst of 20 explosive to inflict MD using explosive rounds while Ramjets can inflict MD using a single round.

The semantic classification for the WI-2E throws me off a bit:
*it gives MD for 20 round bursts from (1) sub machine guns (2) assault rifles (3) heavy machine guns
*it lists black market costs for (1) pistol bullets (2) rifle cartridge (3) heavy machine gun rounds

3 matches up perfectly. 2 is an easy "rifle must mean assault rifle" and 1 threw me off until I remembered reading in HU or something that machineguns use pistol ammo (however most pistols could not fire a 20 round burst).

It costs you 40 credits to inflict MD with explosive rounds (a sub machine burst) giving an average of 2.5 MD. For that amount you can buy at least 4 Ramjet rounds (possibly double) giving you 4 MD.

Where the Ramjet lags behind when bursting. A 20-round WI-10 burst's average 5 MD costs you 100-200 credits. You could get the same damage from firing 2 bursts from WI-2E via pistol rounds in a sub-machine gun and it would only cost you 80 credits.

When comparing Machine Guns though, the WI-20 needs comparing. A 20-round burst of explosive rounds gives average 7 MD for the cost of 120 credits. Ignoring the 12 MD you could get from WI-10s, spending this on WI-20s would give you 8 to 12 shots, or an average of 20 or 30 MD.

Aimed shots are always more efficient though, so let's compare the 40-round WI-20 burst. A burst will cost you 400 to 600 credits and net you average 17.5 MD. For this price you could buy 66 to 100 heavy machine-gun WI-2E rounds. This would net you 3 to 5 bursts, for an average of 21 to 35 MD. So again: Ram-Jets fall behind in cost economy while bursting, but fall ahead in cost-economy when firing single shots.

WI-2Es cannot reliably inflict MD with single shots. The tripling damage does make it possible for higher-tier weapons. We are told that 5.56mm do 2d4x10 (compare RMBp255 the M16A1 assault rifle normally does 4d6, so boost from average 14 to average 50)

Heavy Machine-Guns have a higher enough per-shot damage to surpass 100 when tripled (7d6 max 42 becomes 126) but I'm not even sure if any machine-guns CAN fire single shots (they would make great sniper rifles if they could, epic range). Pretty sure I saw in at least one core book a rule preventing machine guns from firing single shots. Not sure about sub-machine guns. Pretty confident autopistols can still fire single shots.

flatline wrote:until the APRJ came out, I never saw ramjets as particularly inexpensive for the damage they do. As such, I didn't expect demand to be very high.

10 creds for 1 MD is a pretty good rate, and this is totally ignoring the benefit of not needing to invest in thousands-of-creds energy guns or the big initial purchase prices of E-clips.

Even based solely on the cost of just recharging E-clips, if we compare this to say, the Wilk's 320, you get 70 MD for maybe 1000 creds.

Once we move beyond pistols into rifle territory E-clips do get more efficient (Wilk's 447 giving average 210 MD for 1000 creds, more efficient than even the lowest-cost ramjet) but rifles have even larger purchase prices and aren't easy to hide as close-range assassination weapons.

I could see close-range defense or assassins favoring ramjets and all kinds of city rats and vagabonds too poor to afford ten-thou guns and thou-clips flocking to buy these weapons. With the expense of MDC armor there will be all kinds of unarmored people, so it's a lot like the old west where it might be a better defense to own a MD weapon for mutually assured destruction.

If people don't have MDC armor then it might be even more cost effective to just use SDC rounds (30-60 per 100 per RUEp268 and Mercs103 gives you 100 caseless for 60 creds)

Grenades and other explosives can be cheaper but more dangerous due to area-effect. Not ideal if in close range MD combat or if there are people or precious cargo nearby you don't want to 'splode.

If you are equipping a street gang to attack a target at close range, rather than spend 13 000 creds to buy an NG-57 and short clip for 1 guy, letting him do 3d6 per attack (average 21 MD per 2 shots, let's allow him to do that in 1 action via double-tab or short burst rules in spite of RUE, nice and clean). Let's say the guy has 5 attacks and can empty his e-clip in a round this way.

It might be preferably to buy a .45 Model 15 General Officers' Automatic pistol for 400 creds. Even ignoring the option to double-tap or short burst (it is unclear if that weird 2d4 for 20 rule overrides standard bursting rules) let's say we only fill 5 of the 7 rounds (to match the 5 attacks NG-57 guy is using) that brings is to a cost of 450 creds for 5 MD in that round.

You could equip 22 gang members with this for 9900 creds. While he's putting out 105 MD per 15secs the gang is putting out 110 MD per 15secs.

I guess armor is the big thing here: repair costs are horrible as is initial investment, but even a small amount would allow you to soak up ramjet shots while using your weapon (even if you are also using ramjets) to take out unarmored guys.

The Hardware Weapons Specialist can make and alter ammunition.
could they make the ramjet and other specialty rounds??

HU2p134 has exploding bullets but they are not as good as wellington industries' version. Rather than tripling the damage they can at best double it (and even less than this for ammo that does higher than 3d6).

To get Wellington-tier exploding ammo the GM should come up with higher skill penalties and costs and risks associated with it. Even moreso for Ramjets (3d6x10 damage per shot is pretty sweet in SDC settings, even before burst rules)

say652 wrote:The Hardware Weapons Specialist can make and alter ammunition.
could they make the ramjet and other specialty rounds??

If they have the needed equipment sure.....

These rounds are closer to a missile than a bullet though. This is not something your just going to hand load in your basement. But if you have had access to the tech, and you have the gear to make this stuff.....sure a Hardware character could probably make some.

And in SDC settings I suspect that the damage would be lower. I would personally use the Micro-Jet ammunition rules from pg. 180 of Aliens Unlimited Revised/

Hunter/Vigilante as has the ability to make and modify Ammunition. I have a pc with this ability and she has spent several years on Rifts Earth.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Tor wrote:I've never got how ramjet rounds are so cheap yet supposedly rare. Something that cheap would be in very high demand as an easy-access MD infliction means. Maybe they are just expensive to transport so they are only found cheaply in certain locations where they are made? Maybe the jet fuel explodes if transported on bumpy terrain? *reaching for explanations*

The answer to your question always seems to be "Because we said so." I lump it in with how they claim that MD weapons and armor are supposed to be scarce, and yet I don't think they've created a single Rifts book without some new MD toys. Seriously, name any 3 world books that don't introduce new MD equipment. Why? "Because we said so."

How many HU books introduce new super powers?

Does the large number of possible powers mean that super powers are really common on HU Earth?

That still doesn't invalidate the point that I was making. Rifts and HU are different genres, and we're in the Rifts forums.

Soo a T-man with the necessary skills would be a valued slave then. Sold to Captain Org to make bullets. Hmm with demolition and the trap/snare is it possible to set traps sufficient to if not kill, disable a giant??

Tor wrote:The ability to instantly kill most SDC beings (save bulky guys like juicers) is very valuable. As is the ability to do so with an inconspicuous weapon (people fear MD energy weapons, they might allow people to carry SDC firearms around though) and a cheap weapon (look at how many creds it costs to buy an MD energy weapon vs an SDC weapon)

SDC technology is allowed into towns and such where MDC technology is restricted. Ramjet rounds though have limited in what roles they can be employed for though. A ramjet doesn't seem the best approach to hunting, or if you want to try for the "live" bounty (instead of the "dead").

Tor wrote:Nope, looking to Mercs 103 you need to use a burst of 20 explosive to inflict MD using explosive rounds while Ramjets can inflict MD using a single round.

Will admit I didn't look at the damage values close enough.

Per round though the EXP are 2-6 credits per round, RJ are 5-15credits per round (lumping the -10 and -20 version). Obviously depending on the size of the cartridge the price will vary. That means an EXP cost per burst is 40-120credits, for a RJ that range will be 100-300credits for a 20 round burst. For the non-heavy machinegun rounds, the RJ does 33-200% more damage than the EXP using the same weapon but at 250% extra cost (clearly not economical). The heavy weapons are not directly comparable because the RJ are using a 40round burst vs an EXP with a 20round burst. Equalizing the burst sizes (lets say your firing a twin weapon for the EXP), the damage difference is only 25% more with an RJ, but the cost still favours the EXP.

You are correct though in a single shot mode the RJ has better value over the EXP in terms of damage, but in MD combat single shots of this potency just do not seem like a viable option unless you are facing someone else with similar capability. Only a WI-20 makes any sense in single shot, but that can be overcome with EXP type rounds as I will note that the Machinegun on the CAS-30 (pg145Merc) fires EXP bullets, but is otherwise identical to the WI-20 in terms of performance (damage per round/burst-size) So obviously the WI-20 isn't the end all be all of exploding bullets (cost per round is not available, so it may be WI-20 or it maybe some other producer).

I'd prefer the economy of single shots, especially since they can be called.

AU/AUGG has ramjet rounds for the Heroes universe and indicates they are something an earth Hardware Weapons character might be able to do.

wyrmraker wrote:

Tor wrote:I've never got how ramjet rounds are so cheap yet supposedly rare. Something that cheap would be in very high demand as an easy-access MD infliction means. Maybe they are just expensive to transport so they are only found cheaply in certain locations where they are made? Maybe the jet fuel explodes if transported on bumpy terrain? *reaching for explanations*

The answer to your question always seems to be "Because we said so." I lump it in with how they claim that MD weapons and armor are supposed to be scarce, and yet I don't think they've created a single Rifts book without some new MD toys. Seriously, name any 3 world books that don't introduce new MD equipment. Why? "Because we said so."

They're cheap because the demand is low.
They're rare because the demand is low, and only one company makes them.

Some of the weapons in AU might fit the bill for what he is trying. They have several exotic weapons not found in rifts that could be converted to MD in rifts. And the microwave weapons have the ability to damage through armor.

While I can understand the worry about imp energy most targets do not wonder around with it on. So a high damage energy sniper rifle for main and physical weapon for the rare cases of imperv to energy.

Tor wrote:I'd prefer the economy of single shots, especially since they can be called.

I prefer a more holistic approach. If the weapon(s) in question are capable of bursting (or even only capable of bursting) then that has to be considered in determine the economy of the weapon. Not to mention how one is going to use it in battle (burst vs single shot).

ShadowLogan wrote:

Tor wrote:I'd prefer the economy of single shots, especially since they can be called.

I prefer a more holistic approach. If the weapon(s) in question are capable of bursting (or even only capable of bursting) then that has to be considered in determine the economy of the weapon. Not to mention how one is going to use it in battle (burst vs single shot).

Oh, for a rule about Supression... Make the use of bursts more effective.

I use a house rule for suppressive fire already. currently. testing it out. after it finishes he the wringer I'll probably post it if no modifications were necessary.

Suppression already has rules if you pay attention.

1) It takes an attack to dodge, so unless you have some sort of superhuman reactions (ie Auto-Dodge) every time you get shot at (or are in the area affected b a spray type attack) you have to lose an attack to avoid being hit.

2) If you are behind cover, it takes an action to get out from behind it to take a shot (otherwise shooting blind with a substantial strike penalty). Because of the turn structure, your opponent will then get a chance to shoot you before you can do anything else but get out from behind cover.

The net effect of these things is that if you are being shot at and you aren't willing to take the hit, you have to use up a large portion of your attacks on defence, limiting your ability to return fire, manoeuvre, etc. Or, in other words, you are suppressed.


The problem is that most people follow the house rule of each player takes all their actions at once to speed up combat, which makes suppression far more difficult to accomplish.

I don't have them all happen at once, that would be silly. and I realize that dodges are a large part of suppression (glad someone else understands this) but I'm taking about a character on a high rate of fire weapon shooting into an area to force multiple targets to keep their heads down.

Alrik Vas wrote:I don't have them all happen at once, that would be silly. and I realize that dodges are a large part of suppression (glad someone else understands this) but I'm taking about a character on a high rate of fire weapon shooting into an area to force multiple targets to keep their heads down.

That's called a spray and it forces multiple targets to dodge at once.

spray doesn't exist in current rifts and the system for it arbitrarily has nothing to do with your skill.

Alrik Vas wrote:I use a house rule for suppressive fire already. currently. testing it out. after it finishes he the wringer I'll probably post it if no modifications were necessary.

I've been thinking about working on some suppression rules lately myself.
Please do post what you come up with.

Jefffar wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I don't have them all happen at once, that would be silly. and I realize that dodges are a large part of suppression (glad someone else understands this) but I'm taking about a character on a high rate of fire weapon shooting into an area to force multiple targets to keep their heads down.

That's called a spray and it forces multiple targets to dodge at once.

Yup.
Except that the damage for a spray is generally so low that it doesn't force many enemies to really dodge, and the rules were never really fleshed out enough to be very realistic, and they're not applicable to all the weapons that they should be.
I tend to think that if a SAMAS is firing 40 rounds at you, there should be some kind of suppression/fear check that can result in you diving for cover even if he doesn't roll a successful Strike against you.

Alrik Vas wrote:spray doesn't exist in current rifts and the system for it arbitrarily has nothing to do with your skill.

There are still weapons with spray capabilities listed in the various game books (first coming to mind is the FQ pulse laser that uses the old machine gun rules) so there are rules for that form of attack still in the current version of rifts.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Except that the damage for a spray is generally so low that it doesn't force many enemies to really dodge, and the rules were never really fleshed out enough to be very realistic, and they're not applicable to all the weapons that they should be.
I tend to think that if a SAMAS is firing 40 rounds at you, there should be some kind of suppression/fear check that can result in you diving for cover even if he doesn't roll a successful Strike against you.

The biggest part of that is the damage rules do little to make a single potential hit from most weapons frightening. Only when a character is already low on MDC or the weapon has some sort of unusual supplemental effect to players seem to provide their characters with a sense of self preservation.

Could paralytic poison or acid be set in the core of ramjet rounds??
To be administered when hit by one??

say652 wrote:Could paralytic poison or acid be set in the core of ramjet rounds??
To be administered when hit by one??

I would rule not. Since the core of the round is a tiny ramjet, air intakes along the leading curve of the round, the tip would be MD material, while the center would be fuel.

i would also point out they do their damage by kinetic impact, like regular bullets. such additions to regular bullets tend not to work very well unless your using low velocity rounds.. higher velocity rounds tend to over-penetrate and not spend a lot of time inside the body. and if they mushroom they already leave huge wound channels, toxins wouldn't add much.

In WW2 Germany tried to use a high velocity armour penetrating round to deliver teargas inside of a tank. The idea proves not to work as the deformation of the bullet as it worked through the armour resulted in the chemical paylod almost invariably winding up on the outside of the armour.

By coincidence I just wrote this:

Suppressive Fire: Any weapon that may fire in bursts may be used to lay down suppressive fire on an area up to five feet in diameter for every round in the burst. (i.e. a three round burst affects up to a 15 foot area while a 30 round burst may be spread across a 150 foot area.) Suppressive fire is not specifically intended to hit anybody, instead it is used to pin down an opponent and prevent them from effectively shooting back. That said, persons in an area under suppressive fire can be injured or killed by it. Note: Firing into a crowd of civilians is not suppressive fire. The GM should decide how many people are killed when a character turns his or her weapon on a crowd.
After declaring suppressive fire, randomly select one target in the area to execute a wild shot against (-6 to strike) for every 10 rounds in the burst (minimum 1). If the target is hit, inflict the damage for a single shot from the weapon. If a critical is rolled, inflict the damage for a single shot (not double damage) and randomly select a target to execute a wild shot against again. The same target may be hit more than once. Repeat the process if another critical is rolled until all shots are accounted for. It is highly improbable that a player will roll more than a single critical, but it is possible. Targets behind full cover are exempt from randomized hits. Note: Only MDC cover can protect a character from Mega-Damage attacks.
In addition, any character in the area under suppressive fire or attempting to cross it must save vs Horror Factor to move or shoot without penalty. The base Horror Factor of suppressive fire is 10; add +1 for every 10 rounds in the burst (i.e. a 30 round burst has a HF 13). If the character fails their save, they may not move from their location except to take cover and any attempt to return fire is considered a wild shot (-6 to strike). Suppressive fire remains in effect on an area until the end of the current initiative round.

What book is the FQ pulse laser in?

<edit>Polished up my thoughts.</edit>

Free Quebec, I'd assume from the code designation.

Lets skip the chemical and go with pure cheese whiz(c) viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48529&p=931097&hilit=Depleted+Uranium+Ramjet+Vibro+Homing#p931097

Svartalf wrote:Free Quebec, I'd assume from the code designation.

Jefffar must mean the Q2-30 rapid fire heavy laser. It looks like it adapts the old RMB burst/spray rules, effectively granting a bonus to hit and increased damage for firing more shots. It really only allows for multiple targets to be hit when emptying the whole clip though and doesn't include any suppression effect. It's not quite what I'm looking for in spray/suppression rules.

Tor wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:the demand may not be present for them which drives cost down (ie cheap) since compared to other options they aren't nearly as effective

The ability to instantly kill most SDC beings (save bulky guys like juicers) is very valuable. As is the ability to do so with an inconspicuous weapon (people fear MD energy weapons, they might allow people to carry SDC firearms around though) and a cheap weapon (look at how many creds it costs to buy an MD energy weapon vs an SDC weapon)

I don't expect top-tier warriors with loads of wealth to be forming the core market of ramjet round purchasers (although it is still a good cost-saving idea) but rather poor people, who are going to be a much higher number.

ShadowLogan wrote:WI explosive rounds are cheaper/comparable and they do better damage

Nope, looking to Mercs 103 you need to use a burst of 20 explosive to inflict MD using explosive rounds while Ramjets can inflict MD using a single round.

The semantic classification for the WI-2E throws me off a bit:
*it gives MD for 20 round bursts from (1) sub machine guns (2) assault rifles (3) heavy machine guns
*it lists black market costs for (1) pistol bullets (2) rifle cartridge (3) heavy machine gun rounds

3 matches up perfectly. 2 is an easy "rifle must mean assault rifle" and 1 threw me off until I remembered reading in HU or something that machineguns use pistol ammo (however most pistols could not fire a 20 round burst).

It costs you 40 credits to inflict MD with explosive rounds (a sub machine burst) giving an average of 2.5 MD. For that amount you can buy at least 4 Ramjet rounds (possibly double) giving you 4 MD.

Where the Ramjet lags behind when bursting. A 20-round WI-10 burst's average 5 MD costs you 100-200 credits. You could get the same damage from firing 2 bursts from WI-2E via pistol rounds in a sub-machine gun and it would only cost you 80 credits.

When comparing Machine Guns though, the WI-20 needs comparing. A 20-round burst of explosive rounds gives average 7 MD for the cost of 120 credits. Ignoring the 12 MD you could get from WI-10s, spending this on WI-20s would give you 8 to 12 shots, or an average of 20 or 30 MD.

Aimed shots are always more efficient though, so let's compare the 40-round WI-20 burst. A burst will cost you 400 to 600 credits and net you average 17.5 MD. For this price you could buy 66 to 100 heavy machine-gun WI-2E rounds. This would net you 3 to 5 bursts, for an average of 21 to 35 MD. So again: Ram-Jets fall behind in cost economy while bursting, but fall ahead in cost-economy when firing single shots.

WI-2Es cannot reliably inflict MD with single shots. The tripling damage does make it possible for higher-tier weapons. We are told that 5.56mm do 2d4x10 (compare RMBp255 the M16A1 assault rifle normally does 4d6, so boost from average 14 to average 50)

Heavy Machine-Guns have a higher enough per-shot damage to surpass 100 when tripled (7d6 max 42 becomes 126) but I'm not even sure if any machine-guns CAN fire single shots (they would make great sniper rifles if they could, epic range). Pretty sure I saw in at least one core book a rule preventing machine guns from firing single shots. Not sure about sub-machine guns. Pretty confident autopistols can still fire single shots.

flatline wrote:until the APRJ came out, I never saw ramjets as particularly inexpensive for the damage they do. As such, I didn't expect demand to be very high.

10 creds for 1 MD is a pretty good rate, and this is totally ignoring the benefit of not needing to invest in thousands-of-creds energy guns or the big initial purchase prices of E-clips.

Even based solely on the cost of just recharging E-clips, if we compare this to say, the Wilk's 320, you get 70 MD for maybe 1000 creds.

Once we move beyond pistols into rifle territory E-clips do get more efficient (Wilk's 447 giving average 210 MD for 1000 creds, more efficient than even the lowest-cost ramjet) but rifles have even larger purchase prices and aren't easy to hide as close-range assassination weapons.

I could see close-range defense or assassins favoring ramjets and all kinds of city rats and vagabonds too poor to afford ten-thou guns and thou-clips flocking to buy these weapons. With the expense of MDC armor there will be all kinds of unarmored people, so it's a lot like the old west where it might be a better defense to own a MD weapon for mutually assured destruction.

If people don't have MDC armor then it might be even more cost effective to just use SDC rounds (30-60 per 100 per RUEp268 and Mercs103 gives you 100 caseless for 60 creds)

Grenades and other explosives can be cheaper but more dangerous due to area-effect. Not ideal if in close range MD combat or if there are people or precious cargo nearby you don't want to 'splode.

If you are equipping a street gang to attack a target at close range, rather than spend 13 000 creds to buy an NG-57 and short clip for 1 guy, letting him do 3d6 per attack (average 21 MD per 2 shots, let's allow him to do that in 1 action via double-tab or short burst rules in spite of RUE, nice and clean). Let's say the guy has 5 attacks and can empty his e-clip in a round this way.

It might be preferably to buy a .45 Model 15 General Officers' Automatic pistol for 400 creds. Even ignoring the option to double-tap or short burst (it is unclear if that weird 2d4 for 20 rule overrides standard bursting rules) let's say we only fill 5 of the 7 rounds (to match the 5 attacks NG-57 guy is using) that brings is to a cost of 450 creds for 5 MD in that round.

You could equip 22 gang members with this for 9900 creds. While he's putting out 105 MD per 15secs the gang is putting out 110 MD per .

I guess armor is the big thing here: repair costs are horrible as is initial investment, but even a small amount would allow you to soak up ramjet shots while using your weapon (even if you are also using ramjets) to take out unarmored guys.

You talking IG or IRL for that MG using pistol rounds? IRL MG uses rifle rounds SMG use pistol rounds... That is THE difference between MG and SMG the size difference of the weapons is inconsequential to the designation.

Wait wait, payload delievered to the outside of the target.
So acid would infact be a viable payload.

say652 wrote:Wait wait, payload delievered to the outside of the target.
So acid would infact be a viable payload.

So would gas, against a MDC creature or against a target with non-environmental MDC armor.

Bill wrote:By coincidence I just wrote this:

Suppressive Fire: Any weapon that may fire in bursts may be used to lay down suppressive fire on an area up to five feet in diameter for every round in the burst. (i.e. a three round burst affects up to a 15 foot area while a 30 round burst may be spread across a 150 foot area.) Suppressive fire is not specifically intended to hit anybody, instead it is used to pin down an opponent and prevent them from effectively shooting back. That said, persons in an area under suppressive fire can be injured or killed by it. Note: Firing into a crowd of civilians is not suppressive fire. The GM should decide how many people are killed when a character turns his or her weapon on a crowd.
After declaring suppressive fire, randomly select one target in the area to execute a wild shot against (-6 to strike) for every 10 rounds in the burst (minimum 1). If the target is hit, inflict the damage for a single shot from the weapon. If a critical is rolled, inflict the damage for a single shot (not double damage) and randomly select a target to execute a wild shot against again. The same target may be hit more than once. Repeat the process if another critical is rolled until all shots are accounted for. It is highly improbable that a player will roll more than a single critical, but it is possible. Targets behind full cover are exempt from randomized hits. Note: Only MDC cover can protect a character from Mega-Damage attacks.
In addition, any character in the area under suppressive fire or attempting to cross it must save vs Horror Factor to move or shoot without penalty. The base Horror Factor of suppressive fire is 10; add +1 for every 10 rounds in the burst (i.e. a 30 round burst has a HF 13). If the character fails their save, they may not move from their location except to take cover and any attempt to return fire is considered a wild shot (-6 to strike). Suppressive fire remains in effect on an area until the end of the current initiative round.

I'd say that any cover with enough SDC will protect from MD attacks, especially if the damage is on the low end.
Other than that, the rules look pretty good at a first glance.
Hope they work out for you!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

say652 wrote:Wait wait, payload delievered to the outside of the target.
So acid would infact be a viable payload.

So would gas, against a MDC creature or against a target with non-environmental MDC armor.

Well then we run into the other issue, the payload of the round. The teargas in the bullet only worked because it would have been released inside a relatively confined space inside of the tank where the crew was unprotected against its effects.

With the payload deposited on the outside, there wasn't enough to get the necessary concentrations to have any notable effect.

Jefffar wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

say652 wrote:Wait wait, payload delievered to the outside of the target.
So acid would infact be a viable payload.

So would gas, against a MDC creature or against a target with non-environmental MDC armor.

Well then we run into the other issue, the payload of the round. The teargas in the bullet only worked because it would have been released inside a relatively confined space inside of the tank where the crew was unprotected against its effects.

With the payload deposited on the outside, there wasn't enough to get the necessary concentrations to have any notable effect.

That might depend on how many rounds you used.
But if gassing the target is the plan, it'd make more sense to just use an SDC attack that's better at the job.

ultimately though the big reason the nazi's stopped using tear-gas enhanced rounds was two fold..
1st, it hindered combined arms operations because the gas would contaminate the battlefield and debilitate their own troops
2nd, the tear gas pellets had a bad tendency to go off during handling of the ammo, with the result of ruining the round and increasing the number of duds.. or debilitating the ammo handling crews.

Jefffar wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

say652 wrote:Wait wait, payload delievered to the outside of the target.
So acid would infact be a viable payload.

So would gas, against a MDC creature or against a target with non-environmental MDC armor.

Well then we run into the other issue, the payload of the round. The teargas in the bullet only worked because it would have been released inside a relatively confined space inside of the tank where the crew was unprotected against its effects.

With the payload deposited on the outside, there wasn't enough to get the necessary concentrations to have any notable effect.

and, as noted by killer cyborg already, the standard method of delivering those payloads (ie not as a bullet) can already apply the payload to the outside of the target. if you want to apply a gas attack to the outside of a target... you just use a standard gas grenade, not a special gas bullet that puts gas into the person's lungs as it passes through them.

(that said, a special kind of round that punches holes in environmental armour would be very interesting for some customers i'm sure... there are a lot of spells that don't work on environmental armour just because it's environmental after all )

Borast wrote:They're cheap because the demand is low. They're rare because the demand is low, and only one company makes them.

Demand could only realistically be low if there is super-low awareness of the weapons, like if they are new on the market or if competitors are actively suppressing their spread.

All kinds of bottom-feeders would want these things. The want is there, even if demanding has not occurred due to lack of knowing that this exists to fulfill the want.

awareness is low because there is only one source for them, and that source makes most of its money selling more advanced gear.

Why would Wellington Industries make more money selling the other stuff? The expense means that only a minority of rich people could afford them. Just look at the creds adventurers start off with, the salaries people make...

The market able/willing to spend 30 000 credits on a WI-23 or WI-40M or the even more expensive grenade launchers would be minute compared to the large number of people able to part with 100 credits for 10-20 rounds able to inflict an MD point using a cheap firearm.

If I am not mistaken aren't ramjet shotgun rounds available? ? I would be ok with trading range for damage and the poison, acid, explosive effects.

say652 wrote:If I am not mistaken aren't ramjet shotgun rounds available? ? I would be ok with trading range for damage and the poison, acid, explosive effects.

There are indeed. My preferred solid are the APRJ rounds for the NG-11S. They do 3D6MD at a range of 500 feet. In my opinion, loading an automatic shotgun with APRJ rounds is extremely economical, and is my usual loadout for bandits who can't afford the good energy weapons.

wyrmraker wrote:

say652 wrote:Could paralytic poison or acid be set in the core of ramjet rounds??
To be administered when hit by one??

I would rule not. Since the core of the round is a tiny ramjet, air intakes along the leading curve of the round, the tip would be MD material, while the center would be fuel.

I would concur with this. You would need to sacrifice some of the ramjet's fuel to make way for the other agent, which means you reduce the range of the round. And that assumes you can pack enough agent to work with enough fuel to be practical, which I have my doubts that one could get enough of both materials to be practical in anything but the largest caliber (canon rounds are different).

Tor wrote:Why would Wellington Industries make more money selling the other stuff? The expense means that only a minority of rich people could afford them. Just look at the creds adventurers start off with, the salaries people make...

The market able/willing to spend 30 000 credits on a WI-23 or WI-40M or the even more expensive grenade launchers would be minute compared to the large number of people able to part with 100 credits for 10-20 rounds able to inflict an MD point using a cheap firearm.

The GLs have versatility on their side compared to the Ramjet rounds being able to be used in much wider roles based on what type of grenade they fire/use. Granted this is not a fair comparison since a GL and projectile fill different roles.

In terms of actual firepower though Ramjets aren't economical for mega-damage combat. We can see that in the burst cost vs EXP bullets from the same manufacturer. Compared to energy energy weapons the cost to recharge a standard Eclip (RMB) is 1500credits (if we assume a 20shot average payload that means 75credits per shot or 100 for a Long Eclip), to get in this range for damage you are firing 20round bursts from a RJ and you might still not be doing the same damage). Now it would be different if one had to buy a new Eclip each time 5,000credit Standard Eclip (same assumptions as recharge) works out to 250credits per shot, that can make RJs more attractive cost wise but I don't think you are doing the same damage.

Plus Grenades have that area effect working in their advantage allowing one to attack multiple targets at once (if they are close enough). So you may spend more per attack, but you also have the potential to damage more targets with it making it more cost effective.

wyrmraker wrote:

say652 wrote:If I am not mistaken aren't ramjet shotgun rounds available? ? I would be ok with trading range for damage and the poison, acid, explosive effects.

There are indeed. My preferred solid are the APRJ rounds for the NG-11S. They do 3D6MD at a range of 500 feet. In my opinion, loading an automatic shotgun with APRJ rounds is extremely economical, and is my usual loadout for bandits who can't afford the good energy weapons.

The GMG changed their stats. Now they do 2D6MD, but are considerably cheaper.

I actually allow both versions of the round. You can pay extra to do 3d6 or pay less to do 2d6.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

say652 wrote:If I am not mistaken aren't ramjet shotgun rounds available? ? I would be ok with trading range for damage and the poison, acid, explosive effects.

There are indeed. My preferred solid are the APRJ rounds for the NG-11S. They do 3D6MD at a range of 500 feet. In my opinion, loading an automatic shotgun with APRJ rounds is extremely economical, and is my usual loadout for bandits who can't afford the good energy weapons.

The GMG changed their stats. Now they do 2D6MD, but are considerably cheaper.

I actually allow both versions of the round. You can pay extra to do 3d6 or pay less to do 2d6.

--flatline

Northern Gun 1 has them back at 3D6 but also at the original price. Still, even with the full price they're more economical than energy pistols at the same range and damage.