What do you do to make Rifts Earth feel dangerous again?

[Johnathan]

The cost structure in Rifts is all messed up. A lot of the costs are probably just what KS thought sounded good after 10 seconds of thought when he was GMing his game. "Yeah sure, that'll work." Now it's 25 years later and it's still the same.

I just write off a lot of that as price gouging. There's no way you should ever have to pay 5000 credits to recharge an e-clip, unless you're out in the wilderness and there's only one guy who has a power generator. There's a large amount of "screw over the guy from out of town" built into the pricing structure.

Either the prices on everything need to be adjusted down, or mercenary contracts should pay way better than they do.

I think it is because of salvage value.

You jump (or get jumped, otherwise kill) a group of 5 CS Deadboys, each has a C-20 Pistol (16,000 credits, or 80,000 for all 5) and a CV-212 Rifle (50,000 credits, or 250,000 for all 5) and 2 spare e-clips (5,000 credits, or 50,000 for all 10) then you are talkng about over a quarter million (380,000) credits worth of salvage. Even if you can only sell it for half that value (190,000) you're still making a massive profit. Split between a group of 4 PCs and that is at least 47,500 credits each... For one encounter.

You know, I'm trying to remember where I read about the cost on salvage. However, assuming all weapon you get off the aforementioned encounter is in solid, decent, "new dead boy" smell type condition... you're still presented your own list of complications.

1 - Coalition gear is "hot" for most buyers and sellers. It's distinct and isn't actively sold to outsiders. Any arms dealer worth their salt would have their fair share of assumptions about just how these items were acquired. IF they buy the gear at all, they're going to low ball your group. Chances are though, better than not, they'll want no part of it.

2 - Say you do find a buyer who wants the gear. At best, your 50% estimate is WAY too high. Shoot more for the 15%-20% area. Remember, your buyer is in the market of selling guns and such. They're looking to make a profit, and will be selling this gear at market value. Not buying it at market value.

Now, the first scenario obviously plays to the aforementioned ambushing of Coalition soldiers. The second one? That's going to be across the board almost anywhere. Gear never sells back for market value. Ever. There's usage, wear and tear, etc. Your group needs to keep that in mind when selling stuff to merchants. I'd suggest bartering and trading for goods and services for most encounters like this. You'll get A LOT more on your return (supplies, repairs, lodging, food, etc.).

Now. In regards to the original reason for this thread. RIFTS is dangerous as sin. Always has been. My current PC, based off of RIFTS, is currently 13th level magus, knows more spells than I'll ever reasonably have him use, and could probably take down a greater demon one-on-one if given the chance (he hasn't faced one, yet.). In essence, he'd rank up on a Godling/Demigod level in terms of "raw power". However, it ends there. In RIFTS, he'd handle himself well but he can't keep up with every contingency out there. He has weaknesses, like every character should. He's horribly ill prepared against surprise attacks and is very vulnerable to psionics (he's about as psychic as a rock, and doesn't have any bonuses against psychic attacks). Magic does absolutely NO GOOD if a bio-manipulation: mute/paralysis nails him. He's toast at that point. About as useful as a wet noodle...

In truth. No PC is "perfect". They all have flaws and weaknesses that a clever and cunning enemy can exploit; and RIFTS is in no short supply of clever and cunning enemies...

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

2 - Say you do find a buyer who wants the gear. At best, your 50% estimate is WAY too high. Shoot more for the 15%-20% area. Remember, your buyer is in the market of selling guns and such. They're looking to make a profit, and will be selling this gear at market value. Not buying it at market value.

Now, the first scenario obviously plays to the aforementioned ambushing of Coalition soldiers. The second one? That's going to be across the board almost anywhere. Gear never sells back for market value. Ever. There's usage, wear and tear, etc. Your group needs to keep that in mind when selling stuff to merchants. I'd suggest bartering and trading for goods and services for most encounters like this. You'll get A LOT more on your return (supplies, repairs, lodging, food, etc.).

I'd have to agree, while the items would be worth that much from a retail but the resale value would be way less. Nonetheless, salvaged gear at resale value is still money that one didn't have before. One should just hope it balances out the overhead costs of running a merc group.

[Johnathan]

2 - Say you do find a buyer who wants the gear. At best, your 50% estimate is WAY too high. Shoot more for the 15%-20% area. Remember, your buyer is in the market of selling guns and such. They're looking to make a profit, and will be selling this gear at market value. Not buying it at market value.

Now, the first scenario obviously plays to the aforementioned ambushing of Coalition soldiers. The second one? That's going to be across the board almost anywhere. Gear never sells back for market value. Ever. There's usage, wear and tear, etc. Your group needs to keep that in mind when selling stuff to merchants. I'd suggest bartering and trading for goods and services for most encounters like this. You'll get A LOT more on your return (supplies, repairs, lodging, food, etc.).

I'd have to agree, while the items would be worth that much from a retail but the resale value would be way less. Nonetheless, salvaged gear at resale value is still money that one didn't have before. One should just hope it balances out the overhead costs of running a merc group.

Hence why I suggested trading of goods and services. Repairs, refueling, recharging e-clips/re-arming other ammo. A merchant is usually much more willing to trade in services, at a higher value, than just flat out paying out credits. It's cheaper for them in the long run and your fledgling merc group has a reliable way to repair damaged equipment and rearm themselves.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

2 - Say you do find a buyer who wants the gear. At best, your 50% estimate is WAY too high. Shoot more for the 15%-20% area. Remember, your buyer is in the market of selling guns and such. They're looking to make a profit, and will be selling this gear at market value. Not buying it at market value.

Now, the first scenario obviously plays to the aforementioned ambushing of Coalition soldiers. The second one? That's going to be across the board almost anywhere. Gear never sells back for market value. Ever. There's usage, wear and tear, etc. Your group needs to keep that in mind when selling stuff to merchants. I'd suggest bartering and trading for goods and services for most encounters like this. You'll get A LOT more on your return (supplies, repairs, lodging, food, etc.).

I'd have to agree, while the items would be worth that much from a retail but the resale value would be way less. Nonetheless, salvaged gear at resale value is still money that one didn't have before. One should just hope it balances out the overhead costs of running a merc group.

Hence why I suggested trading of goods and services. Repairs, refueling, recharging e-clips/re-arming other ammo. A merchant is usually much more willing to trade in services, at a higher value, than just flat out paying out credits. It's cheaper for them in the long run and your fledgling merc group has a reliable way to repair damaged equipment and rearm themselves.

It's likely easier in the wilderness anyways as credits aren't really always taken by people. It just means that the merc group will have to have an extra vehicle to carry all the extra gear to trade, would be worth it in the end. Barter, services, and gold are the main staple in trade for those in the wilderness.

[Johnathan]

2 - Say you do find a buyer who wants the gear. At best, your 50% estimate is WAY too high. Shoot more for the 15%-20% area. Remember, your buyer is in the market of selling guns and such. They're looking to make a profit, and will be selling this gear at market value. Not buying it at market value.

Now, the first scenario obviously plays to the aforementioned ambushing of Coalition soldiers. The second one? That's going to be across the board almost anywhere. Gear never sells back for market value. Ever. There's usage, wear and tear, etc. Your group needs to keep that in mind when selling stuff to merchants. I'd suggest bartering and trading for goods and services for most encounters like this. You'll get A LOT more on your return (supplies, repairs, lodging, food, etc.).

I'd have to agree, while the items would be worth that much from a retail but the resale value would be way less. Nonetheless, salvaged gear at resale value is still money that one didn't have before. One should just hope it balances out the overhead costs of running a merc group.

Hence why I suggested trading of goods and services. Repairs, refueling, recharging e-clips/re-arming other ammo. A merchant is usually much more willing to trade in services, at a higher value, than just flat out paying out credits. It's cheaper for them in the long run and your fledgling merc group has a reliable way to repair damaged equipment and rearm themselves.

It's likely easier in the wilderness anyways as credits aren't really always taken by people. It just means that the merc group will have to have an extra vehicle to carry all the extra gear to trade, would be worth it in the end. Barter, services, and gold are the main staple in trade for those in the wilderness.

Any merc group that doesn't have something to haul loot away with... needs to be reevaluated.

I am currently of the mindset that this is another thing that makes the wilderness settings so exciting.

"What!? You want creds!? Shooooo-weeee! Best be gettin back to where you done came from then, Mr. Big City. We ain't got none o that stuff round these parts... if'n ya want some repairs done or a shower'n a hot meal... I can help ya out! Now, we gonna do bid'ness or what...!"

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

I think my group may need to re-evaluate some things then LOL.


With credits being a type of crypto-currency, it means any place with a deficiency of electricity or higher tech won't take them at all. I've introduce Northern Gun Notes into the fray as well, paper money, but it might meet the same fate in some places as credits do.


The setting is plenty dangerous if you run it as such. Previous posters have hit the marks on how it is dangerous, and how it might not be either. Gear has a play in it and kind of enemies you run against. Even the GI Joe rule really isn't a game breaker for PCs. Another hit - dead, or at least the chance to be. Laser or bullet may just go through cleanly, hopefully the PCs have a medic or a med kit to stabilize the wounded PC. Even a level 15 character could be killed by a level 1.

Surviving does go back to the abundance or availability of MDC armor and repair kits. If you can find them in a backwoods town, you've hit a gold mine essentially. I doubt a village of a couple hundred would even be able to service armor or vehicles unless they were SDC material. The town mechanic/operator may have the skill but not the resource at hand as he/she likely has other things to do everyday than help mercs and adventurers. Might have to make MDC leather armor until the next bigger town.

[Johnathan]

There's the truth to this whole thing. RIFTS can be very dangerous in many different ways than just who has the bigger guns and the tougher armor. All that stuff requires upkeep and repairs. Ammo needs to be reloaded/recharged. Armor needs to be repaired/replaced.

The PCs can't spend every hour of the day in their armor either. They can sleep with a gun, sure, but not in their armors. There are plenty of things that go bump in the night that'll give your PCs a damn good scare too.

Even THEN! Your local Necromancer/Shifter can beseech upon you a veritable horde of undead/minor supernatural baddies upon your group in the wilderness. How durable your armor is or how much MDC your plasma rifle does is pretty irrelevant when you're up against a group of possessing entities.

[Eagle]

We have actually worked to make the game less lethal in some ways. We made an MDC equivalent of Bondo, the stuff you use to fix dents in your car. Put a big dollop of putty onto the damaged part of your armor, smooth it out, and let it harden for a day or two. It won't make it "good as new", but it'll repair minor damage without you having to make a trip to the armor repair store. We also decided that a lot of "poor" adventurers are probably running around with MDC hide armor combined with scrap metal, which should be available almost everywhere.

[glitterboy2098]

I think my group may need to re-evaluate some things then LOL.


With credits being a type of crypto-currency, it means any place with a deficiency of electricity or higher tech won't take them at all. I've introduce Northern Gun Notes into the fray as well, paper money, but it might meet the same fate in some places as credits do.

in most games i've been in (and run) gold and silver has been the common trade good where Credits are no good (and even many places they are)
though usually trying to pay your bill in chunks of gold or bits of old jewelry does not get anywhere near the full value per ounce the book lists.

[Johnathan]

I think my group may need to re-evaluate some things then LOL.


With credits being a type of crypto-currency, it means any place with a deficiency of electricity or higher tech won't take them at all. I've introduce Northern Gun Notes into the fray as well, paper money, but it might meet the same fate in some places as credits do.

in most games i've been in (and run) gold and silver has been the common trade good where Credits are no good (and even many places they are)
though usually trying to pay your bill in chunks of gold or bits of old jewelry does not get anywhere near the full value per ounce the book lists.

There's also a reason why many characters in RIFTS Earth start off with credits AND tradable goods. Not every place in the world deals in credits. In fact, I'm fairly certain those that deal in credits are in the minority.

[guardiandashi]

I think my group may need to re-evaluate some things then LOL.


With credits being a type of crypto-currency, it means any place with a deficiency of electricity or higher tech won't take them at all. I've introduce Northern Gun Notes into the fray as well, paper money, but it might meet the same fate in some places as credits do.

in most games i've been in (and run) gold and silver has been the common trade good where Credits are no good (and even many places they are)
though usually trying to pay your bill in chunks of gold or bits of old jewelry does not get anywhere near the full value per ounce the book lists.

I seem to remember reading that in the "old days" a lot of the money changers charged anywhere from ~15-30% handling or transaction fees to convert money, they also tended to mis-calibrate their scales to get some more as well. of course if they get caught....

[HWalsh]

We have actually worked to make the game less lethal in some ways. We made an MDC equivalent of Bondo, the stuff you use to fix dents in your car. Put a big dollop of putty onto the damaged part of your armor, smooth it out, and let it harden for a day or two. It won't make it "good as new", but it'll repair minor damage without you having to make a trip to the armor repair store. We also decided that a lot of "poor" adventurers are probably running around with MDC hide armor combined with scrap metal, which should be available almost everywhere.

Just use the Field Armor and Munitions Expert skill.

[glitterboy2098]

I think my group may need to re-evaluate some things then LOL.


With credits being a type of crypto-currency, it means any place with a deficiency of electricity or higher tech won't take them at all. I've introduce Northern Gun Notes into the fray as well, paper money, but it might meet the same fate in some places as credits do.

in most games i've been in (and run) gold and silver has been the common trade good where Credits are no good (and even many places they are)
though usually trying to pay your bill in chunks of gold or bits of old jewelry does not get anywhere near the full value per ounce the book lists.

I seem to remember reading that in the "old days" a lot of the money changers charged anywhere from ~15-30% handling or transaction fees to convert money, they also tended to mis-calibrate their scales to get some more as well. of course if they get caught....

certainly would be a factor. and in rifts you would also have the issues of things like jewelry and old bullion coins often being alloys of gold or silver with other metals. done to give the resulting piece strength, but also diluting the value. this effects the weighing. things like gold dust or silver nuggets too might well see a reduction in trade value due to the hindered of having to get it melted and worked later into more portable forms like coins or bars. that said, a fully intact bit of jewelry might actually net more than it's weight in equivalent metal purely for the fact it has a higher resale value.

i would presume that many travellers coming out the domain of man's more civilized regions would have transferred their trip's funds over to 1oz gold bars of .9999 purity (with all the right seals and anti-counter-fitting marks), as well as sub-1oz bullion coins for more day to day use.

[Axelmania]

Not quite. The average of a d10 is 5.5 not actually 5.

I'm usually always thinking about the decimals of dice averages, this is embarrassing

The cost structure in Rifts is all messed up. A lot of the costs are probably just what KS thought sounded good after 10 seconds of thought when he was GMing his game. "Yeah sure, that'll work." Now it's 25 years later and it's still the same.

When you talk about what'll work, this makes me wonder if you think KS designed it intending for things to be affordable? When we look at the high price of techno-wizardry compared to normal tech, I think otherwise.

I just write off a lot of that as price gouging. There's no way you should ever have to pay 5000 credits to recharge an e-clip

That's the price of a new clip, a recharge is only 1000.

unless you're out in the wilderness and there's only one guy who has a power generator. There's a large amount of "screw over the guy from out of town" built into the pricing structure.

That's because it's the usual rifts situation. Being in a big city where multiple guys have generators and are competing with price-gouging is supposed to be an unusual event.

What may prevent that is they might mutually agree to charge the same high price (partnerships) or one bullies the other into not lowering their prices or be retributed against.

You can certainly have a real nice altruistic operator with a 20 year nuclear robot he lets everyone tap for free, but he might get taken advantage of. Managing a resource like that probably requires hiring mercenaries to guard your recharge station, and to pay them he's going to need to charge high prices.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Either the prices on everything need to be adjusted down, or mercenary contracts should pay way better than they do.

Really depends on the contracts, i guess, and what we're sourcing from.

The example contracts in Merc Ops, for instance, are worth multiple millions.

The contract on the team driving the Naruni Hovertank is almost 10 mill, + the possibility of salvaging the tank itself, a HEAVILY modified Heavy Hovertank with a Boom Gun mounted on the cupola. (In a campaign i guest-starred in semi-recently, we completed this capture without firing a shot, except against one of them, who went down in a hail of gunfire, nowhere near the tank). Was a pretty quick ~30 million payday.

Now, some of the prices listed in early books, especially early HLS stuff, is absurdly low. Wouldn't cover the cost of shooting my gun a few times. Ill give ya that.

/quote]

I think it is because of salvage value.

You jump (or get jumped, otherwise kill) a group of 5 CS Deadboys, each has a C-20 Pistol (16,000 credits, or 80,000 for all 5) and a CV-212 Rifle (50,000 credits, or 250,000 for all 5) and 2 spare e-clips (5,000 credits, or 50,000 for all 10) then you are talkng about over a quarter million (380,000) credits worth of salvage. Even if you can only sell it for half that value (190,000) you're still making a massive profit. Split between a group of 4 PCs and that is at least 47,500 credits each... For one encounter.

WAAYYYYY off on salvage values.

RMB had a list of what the Black Market paid (that i am pretty sure was reprinted copypasta in Black Market).... nothing gets more than 25%, and those are only super-hot items that have a lot of resale value (I.E. the BM is going to mark it up well past the listed book-value market value). Most things hover at 10-15%. Vehicles, Power Armor and Bots are rarely more than 10%, weapons and armor in the 10-15% range depending on manufacturer, and E-clips (Charged) actually being one of the highest at 20%.

You know, I'm trying to remember where I read about the cost on salvage. However, assuming all weapon you get off the aforementioned encounter is in solid, decent, "new dead boy" smell type condition... you're still presented your own list of complications.

1 - Coalition gear is "hot" for most buyers and sellers. It's distinct and isn't actively sold to outsiders. Any arms dealer worth their salt would have their fair share of assumptions about just how these items were acquired. IF they buy the gear at all, they're going to low ball your group. Chances are though, better than not, they'll want no part of it.

Eh? Black Market will buy it no-questions-asked. I'd also have to say that its unlikely that its really that big of a deal how the items were acquired, as it is obvious from the RMB onward that CS weapons are an extremely common armament used by Mercs, as well as modified/repainted Old Style Dead Boy armor being the most commonly suggested heavy armor for most of the RMB/RUE classes. Now, a more "above board" merchant in CS territory that has an actual, legal business with a shop? Yeah, he's probably not going to pay you much - probably even less than the Black Market, because he's likely going to stash it in the back and call the Black Market and sell it to them.

That being said... the Coalition seems to have a "live and let live" policy as long as the items weren't freshly stolen and/or worth over a certain amount (like PA or Robots or Vehicles) ... and even then, they don't really seem to care THAT much, as refurbished Mark V APCs are a common vehicle even in early books and even in (pre-written, by Kev) adventures that take place within CS territory. There are a bunch of NPCs written up as working FOR the Coalition in some books that use stolen CS weaponry and armor, and a even a few that use SAMAS. Particularly if it is the old-style stuff, they dont really seem to be that cranky about it.

A bunch of the Mercenary companies in Mercenaries use SAMAS wings, and they operate in CS territory. (Larsen's Brigade, Braddock's Bad Boys)

Part of this seeming indifference is probably just another artifact of the setting not making the most sense. Its clear that Kevin intended the 'Burbs to be the place where PCs went to hang out between stories, missions, etc, and sell/buy/trade/repair and all that, especially in RMB and the early books....

Without seeming to realize that you have to cross hundreds of miles of well-patrolled CS territory to even GET to the Burbs.

The only way it can work is if the CS has (even if they are technically "unofficial") rules to just let it go, provided it isn't obvious (guys traveling carrying crates of CS weapons and armor, etc). People incidentally armed with anything up to and including body armor and maybe even old style SAMs are probably just told to move along and dont make trouble.

2 - Say you do find a buyer who wants the gear. At best, your 50% estimate is WAY too high. Shoot more for the 15%-20% area. Remember, your buyer is in the market of selling guns and such. They're looking to make a profit, and will be selling this gear at market value. Not buying it at market value.

Absolutely correct here, though, as i pointed out above.

I think my group may need to re-evaluate some things then LOL.

With credits being a type of crypto-currency, it means any place with a deficiency of electricity or higher tech won't take them at all. I've introduce Northern Gun Notes into the fray as well, paper money, but it might meet the same fate in some places as credits do.

Its not really a cryptocurrency, though, and you dont need electricity necessarily to exchange credits. Black Market explains how it works in more detail, but a simple battery powered little hand-held device can transfer credits from one card to another. The cards essentially work like bearer bonds. They aren't usually tied to a bank account (unless you are a CS citizen and have an account with a card tied to it). You can transfer the funds from one card to another to another infintely, basically.

The PCs themselves could have one of the card devices (they dont cost a lot). The devices work with "CS" cards - Universal Credit Cards (because the CS isn't the only issuer), and work with NG cards (which are basically the same as CS/UCC cards, but some people dont trust the CS and will take NG credits). Black Market cards work a bit differently (the cards are just worth X amount of credits, and when you spend them, they basically shred it and give you "change" - a new card with your remaining balance on it).

So, even frontier places MAY very well take credits, particularly if they are a town/settlement that does any trade with NG or any place that uses UCs regularly.

That being said, when you get far enough away from civilization that the town you're in doesn't directly trade with one of the big civilizations (though, given the current state of North America - where is that, exactly? The Dakotas, maybe... parts of Dino Swamp and Maine?) but rather with neighbors who trade with neighbors who trade with NG... then yeah, your likelihood of your credits being honored is a lot lower and its likely to be barter time.

The setting is plenty dangerous if you run it as such. Previous posters have hit the marks on how it is dangerous, and how it might not be either. Gear has a play in it and kind of enemies you run against. Even the GI Joe rule really isn't a game breaker for PCs. Another hit - dead, or at least the chance to be. Laser or bullet may just go through cleanly, hopefully the PCs have a medic or a med kit to stabilize the wounded PC. Even a level 15 character could be killed by a level 1.

Surviving does go back to the abundance or availability of MDC armor and repair kits.

Or refreshable MDC. Every Magic User i play feels like a naughty caster god around ~4th level. Cheap, ever-renewing MDC. Suck it, tech dude. Ironwood is also the gift that keeps on giving, for MDC vehicle armor. In the previously mentioned guest-star, i armored up the party's Mark V with some ablative Ironwood plating on the main body and upper turret.

Slowed her down some (about ~15%, which i felt was fair or even a little lenient on the GM's part) but given that they have a whole trailer full of bolt-on replacements.... worth it.

The PCs can't spend every hour of the day in their armor either.

EVERY hour of the day? No, probably not. You ARE going to want to take it off every few days and shower/clean/wash so you dont chafe and start developing bacteria and stuff... but... the armor, as presented, would be zero trouble to sleep it. Its fairly flexible, lightweight.

I've slept in head to toe plate armor. Once you get comfortable, it's not hard at all. In fact, with the right kind of breastplate, its quite comfortable, as it has great back support. Maile is super easy (so the flexible composite type armors would be analagous) - you dont even realize you're wearing it. And there's MDC clothing. MDC fatigues would be fine to sleep in.

We have actually worked to make the game less lethal in some ways. We made an MDC equivalent of Bondo, the stuff you use to fix dents in your car. Put a big dollop of putty onto the damaged part of your armor, smooth it out, and let it harden for a day or two. It won't make it "good as new", but it'll repair minor damage without you having to make a trip to the armor repair store. We also decided that a lot of "poor" adventurers are probably running around with MDC hide armor combined with scrap metal, which should be available almost everywhere.

I could have sworn this was in the game as far back as SB1 (im not at my home, out on business, so i cant look right now)... but i KNOW it is in the game *somewhere* - Merc Ops maybe?

Does quick repairs of up to ~20 MDC or something to armor. Can only be used so many times on one set until it is properly repaired (basically saying.. you cant bondo on the bondo too much - some of the original armor structure has to remain).

One of the ways i often see parties who dont mind run-ins with the CS get around this kind of thing, too, is Naruni personal force fields.

There's also a reason why many characters in RIFTS Earth start off with credits AND tradable goods. Not every place in the world deals in credits.

Absolutely correct.

In fact, I'm fairly certain those that deal in credits are in the minority.

This one... dunno. Since the vast majority of the sentient population lives in the Domain of Man (and about ~20% of it in the CS alone, rising to at least ~40% when you factor in Free Quebec, NG/Manistique, and Lazlo) i'd say, as a percentage of the population that you might want to buy things from.... probably incorrect.

Now, if we're talking about an absolute number of locations.... maybe closer to reality. There are probably dozens or hundreds of little tiny towns out there that dont take Credits, that probably add up to less than 30,000 people all-told, while a single 'Burb has ~50,000 people in it. I'd still say, given how truly NOT sparsely populated NA is... you're never TOO far from a place that DOES take credits... unless y ou're out in the Dino Swamp wilderness or the North-East (and even then... a few days travel to FQs territory), or maybe the Pacific Northwest (since we STILL somehow dont know what is there) or the Dakotas.

[HWalsh]

Even if you only get 15% value. You're still looking at 57,000 credits. With 4 people that's still 14,250 each. For a relatively weak enemy.

[Axelmania]

some of the prices listed in early books, especially early HLS stuff, is absurdly low. Wouldn't cover the cost of shooting my gun a few times. Ill give ya that.

Of course... sometimes simply having the gun can be enough to win. Some will surrender at the thought of you shooting. They don't know whether or not it's a strain to fill your gun or not. From the perspective of someone threatened by a laser rifle, you might have a free rechargeable TW gun, or know the spell Sub-Particle Acceleration, or have a Mystic Knight who does them for you, or jury-rig to a nearby nuclear battery on your rail gun.

Do you recall which HLS ? I'd like to read the adventure and see if there might be ways to do it without draining an e-clip.

Some things might be suited to things like the Flying Titan PA, which has unlimited 4000 ft laser blasts and flies ~400mph and so could whittle down many opponents without getting shot back at.

the Coalition seems to have a "live and let live" policy as long as the items weren't freshly stolen and/or worth over a certain amount (like PA or Robots or Vehicles) ... and even then, they don't really seem to care THAT much, as refurbished Mark V APCs are a common vehicle even in early books and even in (pre-written, by Kev) adventures that take place within CS territory. There are a bunch of NPCs written up as working FOR the Coalition in some books that use stolen CS weaponry and armor, and a even a few that use SAMAS. Particularly if it is the old-style stuff, they dont really seem to be that cranky about it.

I think many may have a "as long as you repaint them" policy. Basically don't throw it in their face that you're using their gear, make an effort to hide your crime so they have deniability about you doing it, and the townsfolk aren't laughing at them for their negligence at taking you in.

I imagine that's much harder with something like a SAMAS though... but creativity can go a long way.

A bunch of the Mercenary companies in Mercenaries use SAMAS wings, and they operate in CS territory. (Larsen's Brigade, Braddock's Bad Boys)

Mercs 95 seems to indicate that Larsen's Brigade might be a lot more brutal regarding stolen gear than others...

Greg's quip to Simon seems to indicate that the Black Market is so snuggly with Larsen that they'll turn over anyone selling stolen gear from them.

Does this qualify as irony since Larsen is using stolen UAR-1 robots in the first place?

Without seeming to realize that you have to cross hundreds of miles of well-patrolled CS territory to even GET to the Burbs.

Patrolling it well doesn't necessarily mean they search every covered wagon that might have some Dead Boy armor under the straw.

I'm also wondering: what about whatever armor the CS was using prior to ~20 years ago when they made the Dead Boy armor after discovering Lone Star?

It's not standard issue so maybe that makes up a big chunk of black market armors?

there's MDC clothing. MDC fatigues would be fine to sleep in.

The NGR ones all had ARs, anyone know the first one to have none on Rifts Earth? I remember the CCW Jumpsuit didn't but that's off-dimension.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

I think my group may need to re-evaluate some things then LOL.

With credits being a type of crypto-currency, it means any place with a deficiency of electricity or higher tech won't take them at all. I've introduce Northern Gun Notes into the fray as well, paper money, but it might meet the same fate in some places as credits do.

Its not really a cryptocurrency, though, and you dont need electricity necessarily to exchange credits. Black Market explains how it works in more detail, but a simple battery powered little hand-held device can transfer credits from one card to another. The cards essentially work like bearer bonds. They aren't usually tied to a bank account (unless you are a CS citizen and have an account with a card tied to it). You can transfer the funds from one card to another to another infintely, basically.

The PCs themselves could have one of the card devices (they dont cost a lot). The devices work with "CS" cards - Universal Credit Cards (because the CS isn't the only issuer), and work with NG cards (which are basically the same as CS/UCC cards, but some people dont trust the CS and will take NG credits). Black Market cards work a bit differently (the cards are just worth X amount of credits, and when you spend them, they basically shred it and give you "change" - a new card with your remaining balance on it).

So, even frontier places MAY very well take credits, particularly if they are a town/settlement that does any trade with NG or any place that uses UCs regularly.

That being said, when you get far enough away from civilization that the town you're in doesn't directly trade with one of the big civilizations (though, given the current state of North America - where is that, exactly? The Dakotas, maybe... parts of Dino Swamp and Maine?) but rather with neighbors who trade with neighbors who trade with NG... then yeah, your likelihood of your credits being honored is a lot lower and its likely to be barter time.

If that's how it was described in Black Market, I'll have to look at it again. It was always described as quasi-crypto to me, so that's I've been taking it in some manners. I've actually used the cards idea and use a small computer to transfer between owner. It still gets hard to do that when a poor farmer barely has access to a running truck nonetheless a small computer. In MercTown, one of the banks actually does transfers of BM and Universal credits, as well as Northern Gun Notes, which I understand as more of a physical or paper currency. That makes things a lot easier to carry and lay down on a table at a saloon - if the place can use it as not all establishments have a need for NG products.

We have actually worked to make the game less lethal in some ways. We made an MDC equivalent of Bondo, the stuff you use to fix dents in your car. Put a big dollop of putty onto the damaged part of your armor, smooth it out, and let it harden for a day or two. It won't make it "good as new", but it'll repair minor damage without you having to make a trip to the armor repair store. We also decided that a lot of "poor" adventurers are probably running around with MDC hide armor combined with scrap metal, which should be available almost everywhere.

I could have sworn this was in the game as far back as SB1 (im not at my home, out on business, so i cant look right now)... but i KNOW it is in the game *somewhere* - Merc Ops maybe?

Does quick repairs of up to ~20 MDC or something to armor. Can only be used so many times on one set until it is properly repaired (basically saying.. you cant bondo on the bondo too much - some of the original armor structure has to remain).

One of the ways i often see parties who dont mind run-ins with the CS get around this kind of thing, too, is Naruni personal force fields.

Likely thinking of the Metal Spray from MercOps page 117. Apparently really hard to get because it comes from an alien supplier of another dimension. Shame no other manufacturer seems to be able to replicate it even at a lesser rate.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

The NGR ones all had ARs, anyone know the first one to have none on Rifts Earth? I remember the CCW Jumpsuit didn't but that's off-dimension.

Northern Gun's Street Wolf Clothing does not have ARs mentioned in the descriptions and they are MDC clothing. Includes the dusters, business suits, slacks, and combat pants.

[Eagle]

We have actually worked to make the game less lethal in some ways. We made an MDC equivalent of Bondo, the stuff you use to fix dents in your car. Put a big dollop of putty onto the damaged part of your armor, smooth it out, and let it harden for a day or two. It won't make it "good as new", but it'll repair minor damage without you having to make a trip to the armor repair store. We also decided that a lot of "poor" adventurers are probably running around with MDC hide armor combined with scrap metal, which should be available almost everywhere.

I could have sworn this was in the game as far back as SB1 (im not at my home, out on business, so i cant look right now)... but i KNOW it is in the game *somewhere* - Merc Ops maybe?

Does quick repairs of up to ~20 MDC or something to armor. Can only be used so many times on one set until it is properly repaired (basically saying.. you cant bondo on the bondo too much - some of the original armor structure has to remain).

Likely thinking of the Metal Spray from MercOps page 117. Apparently really hard to get because it comes from an alien supplier of another dimension. Shame no other manufacturer seems to be able to replicate it even at a lesser rate.

I very well might have been thinking of that and then imagining it into a house rule. Or maybe we just came up with the same idea, I don't remember having Merc Ops at the time, but who knows. Either way, we were thinking something like that should be fairly commonplace.

We had also talked about having some kind of inexpensive industrial process for producing MDC steel and concrete. Like an additive that you mix in during the manufacturing process that makes it mega-better. That would explain how Chi-Town is able to have a million suits of SAMAS armor (or however many), and how the Coalition manages to build a thousand foot tall arcology after the Great Cataclysm. It's basically not that hard to do if you know how.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

well, MDC concrete is in Merc Ops, straight up. That i remember.

As for MDC steel.. i think there's MDC rebar or something. That one im not 100% on.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Even if you only get 15% value. You're still looking at 57,000 credits. With 4 people that's still 14,250 each. For a relatively weak enemy.

Better hope you didn't take 20MDC of damage to anything, or burn more than a single eClip, or you're in the negatives.

Small scale salvage is hard to profit on, particularly since you usually have to fight to get it.

Vehicles is where the cash is at, if you can capture them intact. A single Mark V APC can net you 2-4 million in one go.

If you're inventive in capturing it, you ALSO get a bunch of freebie small scale salvage (it has complete sets of rifles, grenades, and eClips as part of its standard complement).

[HWalsh]

Even if you only get 15% value. You're still looking at 57,000 credits. With 4 people that's still 14,250 each. For a relatively weak enemy.

Better hope you didn't take 20MDC of damage to anything, or burn more than a single eClip, or you're in the negatives.

Small scale salvage is hard to profit on, particularly since you usually have to fight to get it.

Vehicles is where the cash is at, if you can capture them intact. A single Mark V APC can net you 2-4 million in one go.

If you're inventive in capturing it, you ALSO get a bunch of freebie small scale salvage (it has complete sets of rifles, grenades, and eClips as part of its standard complement).

Eh... Single E-Clip is only 1,000 and there are ways to mitigate that and have your own method to charge them. It does take building a decent framework. Also, yes, capturing vehicles is great.