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Odin is Aberrant and Tyr is principled but believes in human sacrifice is my favorite go-to when explaining how widely interpretable the rifts alignments can be.

I dont think most of the people in the CS are baby eaters that host deliriously entertaining baby eating parties (compete for best sauce!).

But I do think that the environment of the CS makes it easier for the Drogues and Bradfords to become powerful and gain authority.

Greepnak wrote:I think shifters can change the destination of dimension spells if they sense them being cast by someone else.. not sure about switching rifts that are still open but hmmm.

Even if "moving" a hellpit or invasion rift isn't an option (a perfectly reasonable call), finding out the general location of in-hell staging ground and opening a rift to it will suddenly create a strong impetus for the Xiticix and the demons to be fighting each other. And from the "makin' advencha" standpoint you still have the adventure/macguffin/expert who scouts out/finds the staging ground, the covert run into Xiticix territory to plant the portal next to a hive, and whatever ideas you prefer for riling up either side.

Greepnak wrote:♪alignment stuuuuuuuff♫

Fatal and Friends has a takedown of the alignment thing when it reviews sourcebook 1. The book also stats up Prosek as diabolic evil. I mean you're ABSOLUTELY within your rights to change things, it's a game where you're fundamentally shattering the system and it's status quo, rock on with the illuminati retcon; or even mostly-abandoning the alignment system. You'll get no nay-saying from me.

Greepnak wrote:What WOULD it take to convince the space stations and luna colony to stop being jerks?

Buy them off. Their primary unit of trade is H20 (get them water), their primary challenge in life is surviving the radiation (get some anti-rad tech from phase world/etc.), lack of resources (get them resources, maybe use magic to do it), the lack of law and order that come from that, (start knocking over pirates and re-educating them instead of brutally executing them). And in the case of a lot of the mutants, the problem is "being horrible mutants" to which the answer is, "hey I have a permanent metamorphosis human ritual". Some think they're "the new flesh", they'll probably have to be purged. Omelet, eggs, etc.

I mean there are a lot of specifics to each station, but the general theme always ends up being the carrot of "here's some stuff you need/want" and the stick of "I can break you like I broke Black Balfour the Ice Pirate."

Luna's a bit of a bigger problem with the whole xenophobia thing, but it was (as of PA 100) under constant attack by the Arkhons (SA 2). Since they are Space Conquerors with a distinct lack of redeeming features and are squatting on Mars anyway, crush them. I don't know if there are rules for boarding actions on capital ships, but it seems like the gang could grab a bunch of space weapons, whack a bunch of trouble-makers, and garner some political capital with the Orbitals with the same set of actions.

As for the bugs...most bug spray is biodegradable? As is Sarin? And I think there are some nasty vermin-control spells or critter powers a resourceful team could dig up. Nothing like turning enemies into useful (expendable) pawns. If not...their numbers are only so great, and a deathless army of murderbots is easier to win with when the enemy is really, really stupid. Arguably (the fluff of the same book contradicts itself) aren't SMART enough to crush the hearts of broken golems.

Getting from Earth to space is...unclear. By all rights the CS or Triax should have been able to get a boat up there by simply throwing on enough armor and force fields. The debris fields don't do *that* much damage, the killsats (that are statted up) only hit so hard (and missiles can be dodged/shot), the stuff that DOESN'T have stats (but is implied to exist) should be good enough that the Orbitals know more about what is going on down on Earth and be more involved. But that's Crazy Aunt Phyllis for you, I suppose.

Probably best to just Rift it to wherever, I like Mars because there's a pregen adventure a party can just choose to end differently in the back of Mutants in Orbit for it, but as long as you make sure it's the right universe there are a lot of "back ways" around to space.

boring7 wrote:

Greepnak wrote:I think shifters can change the destination of dimension spells if they sense them being cast by someone else.. not sure about switching rifts that are still open but hmmm.

Even if "moving" a hellpit or invasion rift isn't an option (a perfectly reasonable call), finding out the general location of in-hell staging ground and opening a rift to it will suddenly create a strong impetus for the Xiticix and the demons to be fighting each other. And from the "makin' advencha" standpoint you still have the adventure/macguffin/expert who scouts out/finds the staging ground, the covert run into Xiticix territory to plant the portal next to a hive, and whatever ideas you prefer for riling up either side.

Greepnak wrote:♪alignment stuuuuuuuff♫

Fatal and Friends has a takedown of the alignment thing when it reviews sourcebook 1. The book also stats up Prosek as diabolic evil. I mean you're ABSOLUTELY within your rights to change things, it's a game where you're fundamentally shattering the system and it's status quo, rock on with the illuminati retcon; or even mostly-abandoning the alignment system. You'll get no nay-saying from me.

Greepnak wrote:What WOULD it take to convince the space stations and luna colony to stop being jerks?

Buy them off. Their primary unit of trade is H20 (get them water), their primary challenge in life is surviving the radiation (get some anti-rad tech from phase world/etc.), lack of resources (get them resources, maybe use magic to do it), the lack of law and order that come from that, (start knocking over pirates and re-educating them instead of brutally executing them). And in the case of a lot of the mutants, the problem is "being horrible mutants" to which the answer is, "hey I have a permanent metamorphosis human ritual". Some think they're "the new flesh", they'll probably have to be purged. Omelet, eggs, etc.

I mean there are a lot of specifics to each station, but the general theme always ends up being the carrot of "here's some stuff you need/want" and the stick of "I can break you like I broke Black Balfour the Ice Pirate."

Luna's a bit of a bigger problem with the whole xenophobia thing, but it was (as of PA 100) under constant attack by the Arkhons (SA 2). Since they are Space Conquerors with a distinct lack of redeeming features and are squatting on Mars anyway, crush them. I don't know if there are rules for boarding actions on capital ships, but it seems like the gang could grab a bunch of space weapons, whack a bunch of trouble-makers, and garner some political capital with the Orbitals with the same set of actions.

As for the bugs...most bug spray is biodegradable? As is Sarin? And I think there are some nasty vermin-control spells or critter powers a resourceful team could dig up. Nothing like turning enemies into useful (expendable) pawns. If not...their numbers are only so great, and a deathless army of murderbots is easier to win with when the enemy is really, really stupid. Arguably (the fluff of the same book contradicts itself) aren't SMART enough to crush the hearts of broken golems.

Getting from Earth to space is...unclear. By all rights the CS or Triax should have been able to get a boat up there by simply throwing on enough armor and force fields. The debris fields don't do *that* much damage, the killsats (that are statted up) only hit so hard (and missiles can be dodged/shot), the stuff that DOESN'T have stats (but is implied to exist) should be good enough that the Orbitals know more about what is going on down on Earth and be more involved. But that's Crazy Aunt Phyllis for you, I suppose.

Probably best to just Rift it to wherever, I like Mars because there's a pregen adventure a party can just choose to end differently in the back of Mutants in Orbit for it, but as long as you make sure it's the right universe there are a lot of "back ways" around to space.

I heart you for that alignment stuff comment haha. Yeah the Mutants in Orbits book as applied to RIFTS is like ... ehhh.. the numbers might have made sense in like 75PA. I sense I'm going to have to do some reconstructing and definitely learn more about the Arkhons ( I have SA and SA2 but have not used much from them yet)

Permanent Morph: Human spell? How? Or am I opening a pandoras TW-box?

Buy them off. Their primary unit of trade is H20 (get them water), their primary challenge in life is surviving the radiation (get some anti-rad tech from phase world/etc.), lack of resources (get them resources, maybe use magic to do it), the lack of law and order that come from that, (start knocking over pirates and re-educating them instead of brutally executing them). And in the case of a lot of the mutants, the problem is "being horrible mutants" to which the answer is, "hey I have a permanent metamorphosis human ritual". Some think they're "the new flesh", they'll probably have to be purged. Omelet, eggs, etc.

Lack of resources is a joke. Seriously it is. Sure they have to go out and import it, but they really don't suffer from a lack of resources per say.

It's also important to remember that when MiO was written water ice on the Moon wasn't a thing they seemed to consider beyond unproven theory. That helps the Moon Colony, and might help the stations (IIRC they can mine the Moon for resources) if the Moon gets updated (either retroactively, or via "new" discovery for them). Even comet activity can be used to acquire water.

I misread the metamorphosis superior rules. My bad.

Edit: Full conversion borg can do a "passes for human" cyborg. At the Very least it does if you get Archie-tech involved. Probably less popular.

I am really enjoying this thread. I'm not for trying to make the CS leadership less evil but the ideas on kingdom building have been good so far. I've often thought of similar ideas when I began putting together my games (most recently using a portion of the Army of the Southern Cross dropping into the New West/Utah area)

Greepnak wrote:♪alignment stuuuuuuuff♫

Fatal and Friends has a takedown of the alignment thing when it reviews sourcebook 1. The book also stats up Prosek as diabolic evil. I mean you're ABSOLUTELY within your rights to change things, it's a game where you're fundamentally shattering the system and it's status quo, rock on with the illuminati retcon; or even mostly-abandoning the alignment system. You'll get no nay-saying from me.

I think that fatal and friends bit holds on to a 20th century absolute but the spirit of the alignment system is largely about point of view and distinguishes more on intent than action. Trolley problems are rooted in these sorts of judgments. Do you pull the lever and make the train run over X on the tracks instead of Y or by inaction do you let Y get gibbed? More importantly, why? It's the distinction we make with soldiers in war and stuff too. Intent colors the action. Murder vs manslaughter. Shoot Baby Hitler?

Thus, in the spirit, if the CS citizens are thoroughly sure thanks to firsthand experience (because both the FOM and Tolkeen just couldnt resist using summoned demons damnit) + the propaganda zeitgeist that the inhuman and supernatural is fundamentally evil by it's very nature (which demons, vampires etc actually are here.. biologically structured to be fundamentally evil) then the INTENT of the cs citizen turning in a D-bee makes him think he's a hero. He's likely terrified for himself, his family, burb etc and probably more afraid of the DBee finding out he turned him in than about what the ISS/NTSS would do about it. So by intent, he's practically a paladin, even if objectively from a reader point of view he's just misguided as heck. In real life if Thornheads and Baalrog were strolling around invisibly dismembering our daughters because they knew it would make us flip out and they love it, how many people would ask for temperance vs turning into Rambo? It's not a huge logical leap to make in a world populated with people who barely have a 3rd grade education by 20th century standards that "if it has bumps on it's head or more than 2 arms, kill it dead for your own safety" would be a popular point of view. Nevermind that there's a hell pit where human slaves are being worked to death and used for food/rape/sadist games maybe sixty miles to your west. Rally 'round the family with a pocket full of shells all day long.

Greepnak wrote:

Greepnak wrote:♪alignment stuuuuuuuff♫

Fatal and Friends has a takedown of the alignment thing when it reviews sourcebook 1. The book also stats up Prosek as diabolic evil. I mean you're ABSOLUTELY within your rights to change things, it's a game where you're fundamentally shattering the system and it's status quo, rock on with the illuminati retcon; or even mostly-abandoning the alignment system. You'll get no nay-saying from me.

I think that fatal and friends bit holds on to a 20th century absolute but the spirit of the alignment system is largely about point of view and distinguishes more on intent than action. Trolley problems are rooted in these sorts of judgments. Do you pull the lever and make the train run over X on the tracks instead of Y or by inaction do you let Y get gibbed? More importantly, why? It's the distinction we make with soldiers in war and stuff too. Intent colors the action. Murder vs manslaughter. Shoot Baby Hitler?

Thus, in the spirit, if the CS citizens are thoroughly sure thanks to firsthand experience (because both the FOM and Tolkeen just couldnt resist using summoned demons damnit) + the propaganda zeitgeist that the inhuman and supernatural is fundamentally evil by it's very nature (which demons, vampires etc actually are here.. biologically structured to be fundamentally evil) then the INTENT of the cs citizen turning in a D-bee makes him think he's a hero. He's likely terrified for himself, his family, burb etc and probably more afraid of the DBee finding out he turned him in than about what the ISS/NTSS would do about it. So by intent, he's practically a paladin, even if objectively from a reader point of view he's just misguided as heck. In real life if Thornheads and Baalrog were strolling around invisibly dismembering our daughters because they knew it would make us flip out and they love it, how many people would ask for temperance vs turning into Rambo? It's not a huge logical leap to make in a world populated with people who barely have a 3rd grade education by 20th century standards that "if it has bumps on it's head or more than 2 arms, kill it dead for your own safety" would be a popular point of view. Nevermind that there's a hell pit where human slaves are being worked to death and used for food/rape/sadist games maybe sixty miles to your west. Rally 'round the family with a pocket full of shells all day long.

Ignorance is an excuse for the ignorant though.
Those that know better though become willful evil.
The leadership of the CS knows that magic is not inherently corrupting for example. They know that the propaganda that is being shown to manipulate the public is made up. They have no excuse.
Its the WWII scenario.
The German citizen may not be evil. But the Nazi command is.

If buying other people's ******** was an acceptable excuse IRL people would have a lot more sympathy for terrorists than they do. Was the first thing you though when you heard about the attack on the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, "I know they did a bad thing but it's not their fault. They just bought person X's **** and so went out and killed a bunch of kids. They weren't really bad people."? No, you probably didn't.

No one is going to hold Osama bin Laden up as an example of Lawful Good unless it is as an example of why ingame alignment systems are ass.

Much as I'd like to discuss my opinions on the Manchester bomber / Osama, I think going into that territory is potentially too inflammatory for here or even for Sound Off. Your estimations aren't accurate for me though.

IGNG wrote:If buying other people's ******** was an acceptable excuse IRL people would have a lot more sympathy for terrorists than they do. Was the first thing you though when you heard about the attack on the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, "I know they did a bad thing but it's not their fault. They just bought person X's **** and so went out and killed a bunch of kids. They weren't really bad people."? No, you probably didn't.

No one is going to hold Osama bin Laden up as an example of Lawful Good unless it is as an example of why ingame alignment systems are ass.

Depends on your starting point and the assumptions you're building off of. Yeah everybody here in the west is like "that's terrible", but I'm sure there are people in Derkaderkastan who don't see it quite the same way.

Moving it away from politics, we all agree that shooting your neighbor in the face is a bad thing. Now let's say that your neighbor is a real practical joker. He knows you've been up half the night watching a horror movie marathon, and so he puts on a scary mask, and he gets a chainsaw. And he starts sneaking around your back yard tapping on the windows. And when you go look to see what the noise is, he starts the chainsaw and goes running for your back door. Then you grab your gun and blow his brains out.

Evil act? You were never actually in any danger, but of course you didn't know that. For a Coalition citizen, they don't have access to accurate information about which D-bees and which mages are actually dangerous. They rely on the information they have at hand.

Ethical edge case: Horune pirates are terrible people. Breaking their ships and enslaving them for sale at the Atlantis market is a useful way to make the oceans a bit safer and bring in some capital for bigger plans. Or just buying and freeing slaves that are NOT complete jerks.

Eagle wrote:we all agree that shooting your neighbor in the face is a bad thing. Now let's say that your neighbor is a real practical joker. He knows you've been up half the night watching a horror movie marathon, and so he puts on a scary mask, and he gets a chainsaw. And he starts sneaking around your back yard tapping on the windows. And when you go look to see what the noise is, he starts the chainsaw and goes running for your back door. Then you grab your gun and blow his brains out.

Evil act? You were never actually in any danger, but of course you didn't know that. For a Coalition citizen, they don't have access to accurate information about which D-bees and which mages are actually dangerous. They rely on the information they have at hand.

A great example.

Although.... I don't agree that shooting neighbours in faces is inherently a bad thing, it could be fine if they were actually trying to attack you, for example. Or even if they were innocent Principled, it is fine to shoot them in the face with a water pistol during a consented-to aqua battle.

But you shouldn't squirt a neighbour in the face with a water pistol without prior consent in case they are a vampire or a wicked witch.

Eagle wrote:

IGNG wrote:If buying other people's ******** was an acceptable excuse IRL people would have a lot more sympathy for terrorists than they do. Was the first thing you though when you heard about the attack on the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, "I know they did a bad thing but it's not their fault. They just bought person X's **** and so went out and killed a bunch of kids. They weren't really bad people."? No, you probably didn't.

No one is going to hold Osama bin Laden up as an example of Lawful Good unless it is as an example of why ingame alignment systems are ass.

Depends on your starting point and the assumptions you're building off of. Yeah everybody here in the west is like "that's terrible", but I'm sure there are people in Derkaderkastan who don't see it quite the same way.

Moving it away from politics, we all agree that shooting your neighbor in the face is a bad thing. Now let's say that your neighbor is a real practical joker. He knows you've been up half the night watching a horror movie marathon, and so he puts on a scary mask, and he gets a chainsaw. And he starts sneaking around your back yard tapping on the windows. And when you go look to see what the noise is, he starts the chainsaw and goes running for your back door. Then you grab your gun and blow his brains out.

Evil act? You were never actually in any danger, but of course you didn't know that. For a Coalition citizen, they don't have access to accurate information about which D-bees and which mages are actually dangerous. They rely on the information they have at hand.

And your back to
Willful evil vs Ignorant Evil
People doing evil acts out of ignorance are different than people doing evil acts as deliberate acts of will.

It is a very common defense of evil though to try and equate the two as equivalent by claiming that since the outcome is the same that the act itself is the same. That is a facet of moral absolutism. And if that is true, then under that situation then your case is wrong because in an absolutist system you are wrong if you are wrong regardless of if you know it or not. A good example of moral absolutism is computer programing. If your code is bad, its bad...it doesn't matter if you intend it to be buggy or not, it Just Is.

eliakon wrote:

Eagle wrote:

IGNG wrote:If buying other people's ******** was an acceptable excuse IRL people would have a lot more sympathy for terrorists than they do. Was the first thing you though when you heard about the attack on the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, "I know they did a bad thing but it's not their fault. They just bought person X's **** and so went out and killed a bunch of kids. They weren't really bad people."? No, you probably didn't.

No one is going to hold Osama bin Laden up as an example of Lawful Good unless it is as an example of why ingame alignment systems are ass.

Depends on your starting point and the assumptions you're building off of. Yeah everybody here in the west is like "that's terrible", but I'm sure there are people in Derkaderkastan who don't see it quite the same way.

Moving it away from politics, we all agree that shooting your neighbor in the face is a bad thing. Now let's say that your neighbor is a real practical joker. He knows you've been up half the night watching a horror movie marathon, and so he puts on a scary mask, and he gets a chainsaw. And he starts sneaking around your back yard tapping on the windows. And when you go look to see what the noise is, he starts the chainsaw and goes running for your back door. Then you grab your gun and blow his brains out.

Evil act? You were never actually in any danger, but of course you didn't know that. For a Coalition citizen, they don't have access to accurate information about which D-bees and which mages are actually dangerous. They rely on the information they have at hand.

And your back to
Willful evil vs Ignorant Evil
People doing evil acts out of ignorance are different than people doing evil acts as deliberate acts of will.

It is a very common defense of evil though to try and equate the two as equivalent by claiming that since the outcome is the same that the act itself is the same. That is a facet of moral absolutism. And if that is true, then under that situation then your case is wrong because in an absolutist system you are wrong if you are wrong regardless of if you know it or not. A good example of moral absolutism is computer programing. If your code is bad, its bad...it doesn't matter if you intend it to be buggy or not, it Just Is.

I see alignment about intent.-so-
Killing a person that is no threat is often seen as an evil act.
However lets say a drunk mistook your unlocked house for his and has no intent to do harm. You mistake him for some one in the house to attack you and shoot him. While a tragic accident it was not an evil act, there was no intent to kill some one that is harmless.

Fallowing orders that you know are wrong/evil does not excuse you from being evil. So an order is to kill some one you know is harmless then fallowing that order is an evil act.

Creating excuses for acts you know are wrong or evil does not make them not evil, just that you are lying to yourself about said acts to ease your conscious.

The vast majority of the CS are unware of the evil acts being done. Part of the reason they focus on limiting literacy is to try and control flow of information.

Is it even possible for anyone in the CS to know they are harming innocents? How is one to evaluate that? Even mind probes could be fooled.

Axelmania wrote:Is it even possible for anyone in the CS to know they are harming innocents? How is one to evaluate that? Even mind probes could be fooled.

Yes it is possible. It comes when personal experience differs from propaganda. The ones that are most able to do that are CS rangers and SF, that by the books are more willing to work with D-bees.

When the people you gun down offer no real resistance you figure out they can not be a threat. So at the start they may be in the dark but burning a village and killing children you would quickly figure out they can not fight back. That shows propaganda that they are all inhuman monsters some what wrong. Other experiences can build on this to create personal experience that shows propaganda is wrong and they are no threat.

Not skeptical enough. How do you know you killed actual children and not illusions? How often would you stick around to dissect the bodies? How do you know it wasn't a Scarecrow using Metamorphosis: Humanoid and it was just playing dead to make you feel bad, but then followed you home and gave your wife's address to Dunscon?

D-bee children in service of wizards may try to get killed without resisting to destroy enemy mood, then just get resurrected back to life, for all the CS knows.

Axelmania wrote:Not skeptical enough. How do you know you killed actual children and not illusions? How often would you stick around to dissect the bodies? How do you know it wasn't a Scarecrow using Metamorphosis: Humanoid and it was just playing dead to make you feel bad, but then followed you home and gave your wife's address to Dunscon?

D-bee children in service of wizards may try to get killed without resisting to destroy enemy mood, then just get resurrected back to life, for all the CS knows.

Right.
Look at how the real-world reacts to perceived terrorist/criminal threats.
Look at all the real-world conspiracy theories, justification of prejudice, immediate accusations of false flag attacks, and so forth.

Then add in shapeshifters, mind-controllers, illusionists, and travelling circuses where the clowns are secretly vampires.
For starts.

I've seen plenty of players ambush the CS by using trickery to make the CS think the PCs were harmless, until it was too late.
As a player, I've had GM's mess with our heads by making it unclear whether what we were up against. We've killed innocents we thought were threats. We've been killed by threats that we thought were innocents. We've killed beings, and never known for certain what they were.
As a GM, I've had plenty of NPCs use trickery against PCs this way, and I've terrified the PCs with innocent children that they thought were enemies.

Add to all of that, CS propaganda:
You have people who have grown up indoctrinated not only in fake news telling them that the demons, mages, and demon-mages out there will use illusions and psionic douchebaggery to manipulate them, but also in whatever kind of state-approved mass media entertainment systems the CS has to offer.
And I don't see any way for it to make a lick of sense for CS entertainment to NOT have plenty of movies showing countless variations on the theme of "this person doubted their mission/cause, because it appeared that the CS was doing bad things, but it was all just demonic trickery!"
Think about all the entertainment we have today, where characters are killed off (or nearly killed) because they have a moment of sentiment, and we aren't a dictatorial nation where the Minister of Propaganda holds the third highest rank in the land.

Killer Cyborg wrote:[q
Think about all the entertainment we have today, where characters are killed off (or nearly killed) because they have a moment of sentiment, and we aren't a dictatorial nation where the Minister of Propaganda holds the third highest rank in the land.

Ah, you speak of Saving Private Ryan with the scumbag nazi soldier, no? Yeah, slow knife stab to the chest was the ugliest sequence in the movie, especially with the German sorta apologizing but "I can't help it, it's war".

Would be fun to review films the CS would show from pre-rifts and how extensively they have to be edited.

Would reading need to be erased in heroes? Or does the CS populace know the elite military reads and understands only they can handle its dangers?

Axelmania wrote:Would be fun to review films the CS would show from pre-rifts and how extensively they have to be edited.

Would reading need to be erased in heroes? Or does the CS populace know the elite military reads and understands only they can handle its dangers?

In my head-canon, the CS citizens know how to read. They just don't read well. They've got a 2nd or 3rd grade reading level, even to be functional (they know what an "Exit" sign means) but not enough to be a danger to the existing power structure.

That's why they speak American instead of English. Trying to read a book from today would be like having a 3rd grader try to read and understand Shakespeare. Everything is hard, they use funny words that are really big. The spelling is different. Everything has been dumbed down. Their reading capabilities are somewhere between See Spot Run and text message. "Ur" instead of you're and your. "2" instead of two, to, too.

This allows you to have things like street signs. Some high school kid can push the button that says combo meal #3. But nobody is reading Henry David Thoreau or John Locke. And people think they know how to read. Coalition soldiers who meet NGR soldiers don't feel like they're illiterate. They don't think they're missing anything. "You know how to read? Yeah, so do I."

Most CS schooling would be some kind of vocational training. You get trained to repair engines, and you learn a little bit of Techno-Can so you can read a repair manual. It has words for technical jargon, and some symbols and stuff that you're trained to recognize, but nothing like philosophical thought. It doesn't have the words for it. So your average citizen can function in a high tech society, but they can't express any kinds of deep thoughts in writing.

I'd even argue that the CS could have instituted this dumbing down of language as part of a pro-literacy program. Karl Prosek has been Emperor for what, 25 years? If they were actively stamping out literacy the way the book portrays it, then even then, anybody who was in their 30s should still know how to read. He hasn't been Emperor long enough to achieve the levels of illiteracy that the Coalition is supposed to have. I mean, 25 years ago we're talking Bill Clinton becoming President. Think of what percentage of people in the US today already knew how to read by that point.

So you've got one of three possibilities. Either people in the Coalition were just super-illiterate before, and ol' Karl just kept on not teaching them (which isn't really much of a super-evil plan, it's just business as usual), or there are a whole bunch of people who really do know how to read, or... what if most people were illiterate before, and Prosek has taught them all a really stripped down version of English? Under the auspices of "making it easier to learn, faster to teach", people start learning American. With very few rules of grammar, maybe an alphabet with only 20 letters, stuff like that, you can teach kids to read American in a few months. The fact that it's almost impossible to express philosophical thought with the language, or to read any of the old English novels, is a feature. To the people, it's better than being wholly illiterate. They feel like they're smarter, and it makes them love the Emperor even more. He's seen as the Great Educator. Because before, only 10% of people could read and write. Now everyone can read and write, just in a mostly useless language.

Axelmania wrote:Not skeptical enough. How do you know you killed actual children and not illusions? How often would you stick around to dissect the bodies? How do you know it wasn't a Scarecrow using Metamorphosis: Humanoid and it was just playing dead to make you feel bad, but then followed you home and gave your wife's address to Dunscon?

D-bee children in service of wizards may try to get killed without resisting to destroy enemy mood, then just get resurrected back to life, for all the CS knows.

That is the gist of how my conversations with one of my more stubborn players go. Also isnt that exact idea the reason for one of the Chaos Earth tech zombies, the ones that look like children but are really undead murderbots?

Axelmania wrote:Not skeptical enough. How do you know you killed actual children and not illusions? How often would you stick around to dissect the bodies? How do you know it wasn't a Scarecrow using Metamorphosis: Humanoid and it was just playing dead to make you feel bad, but then followed you home and gave your wife's address to Dunscon?

D-bee children in service of wizards may try to get killed without resisting to destroy enemy mood, then just get resurrected back to life, for all the CS knows.

Because most illustions are set at the time of casting and do not respond to the envoirment.

why some one think that the person they just splattered was an illusion? Why would you not believe your own eyes and experience.
You ride into a town and burn it kill women using there body to shield their baby and then gun down the baby you are going to fill something. When you see stuff like that happen it is hard for some one that is good to not question it.(The average grunt has no idea what a scarecrow is.)

The whole well they could be just faking it just does not clear you from internally gunning down a kid not fighting back. It is just an excuse to try and justify committing evil, what is important is that you with intent harmed something that did not fight back. You do not need to confirm the harm for the intent of inflicting harm to be wrong. It is the intent to do harm that is evil, there is no need to prove the harm was done just that you tried to do the harm.


(I would think if you deploy your military to settlement they would stick around for a little while to secure the area.)

Also just because some one can heal the harm you inflict does not make it any less wrong to inflict the harm. That would be like saying well we know the doctors can reattach your manhood so it is OK for me to chop it off. The part about the d-bee children working for a mage seams more an attempt to place the blame on the victim and a poor excuse.

It is easy to be evil in combat being good requires allot more effort and has greater risk.

Exactly how often are some people thinking this napalming the mom holding her baby trope happens?

Why are we talking about alignment...again?

So why don't we circle back to the original premise of this thread? Which I think was along the lines of kingdom building

SycophantNagaraja wrote:So why don't we circle back to the original premise of this thread? Which I think was along the lines of kingdom building

Pretty please?

One thought that crosses my mind is the proposed Lemurian alliance. They use a lot of magic, but a good lie is apparently pretty easy in the CS. The term "psi-tech" is pretty easy to invent an explanation for all magic items as ACTUALLY being psychic (somehow) and therefore sanctioned and okay. It's not a magic amulet that lets you see invisible things, it's psi-amp that lets any human brain punch through magical illusions with a sensitive psionic power. It's not an enchanted helmet of breath without air, it's a Resonance Helmet that a psychic can charge up with a mind-over-matter power that keeps replenishing the air in your lungs.

That was one of the books I missed picking up when it came out and I'm hoping when the finances are right I can circle back around and pick some of those up. But you bring up a good point. A simple lie from a reputable source can smooth over a lot to the masses so it might make it easier to cope with.

SycophantNagaraja wrote:That was one of the books I missed picking up when it came out and I'm hoping when the finances are right I can circle back around and pick some of those up. But you bring up a good point. A simple lie from a reputable source can smooth over a lot to the masses so it might make it easier to cope with.

Smart, I like that. It fits very well into my campaign premise (Vanguard playing illuminati games, with Joseph Prosek's involvement)

It's worth noting re:illusion that it's fully convincing unto the point of being able to be killed by the illusion (Apparition spell) so the afflicted's own mind must interact with the magical construct to keep it legitimate with the environment.
Also worth noting Doc Reid's writings on vampires and how they use the illusion of humanity as a means to get close and duck retribution. It's not grandma it's a bloodthirsty sadist, but it acts just like grandma until it's too late. Truly frightening. Mexico's gotta go, even Mexico City probably. Then again, the Mexico City VI as a source of mass superhuman creation....?

Just as I've been building up my own PS/GNE kingdom, utilizing Rifts Earth's RIFTS as a means of embracing interdimensional trade, I feel, is a good way to build a larger kingdom with the means to unbreak Rifts Earth. Control the Rifts, the flow of magical energy, secure interdimensional travel, and hold large enough swaths of Earth territory and you can be on your way to building a Phaseworld-style commerce/travel service empire on Rifts Earth. Even if you can't build the technology/manpower to deal with all your problems, with enough money, you can buy/hire outside means to deal with the problem.

taalismn wrote:Just as I've been building up my own PS/GNE kingdom, utilizing Rifts Earth's RIFTS as a means of embracing interdimensional trade, I feel, is a good way to build a larger kingdom with the means to unbreak Rifts Earth. Control the Rifts, the flow of magical energy, secure interdimensional travel, and hold large enough swaths of Earth territory and you can be on your way to building a Phaseworld-style commerce/travel service empire on Rifts Earth. Even if you can't build the technology/manpower to deal with all your problems, with enough money, you can buy/hire outside means to deal with the problem.

You'll still need enough power to deal with MOST of your problems. The other dimensional markets don't care for competition and there's always some jerk who thinks he's the ONLY guy smart enough to realize if he conquers the market he can be the new king of commerce. It doesn't matter that everyone will spank him or abandon the burnt-out market he ends up ruling, he's still going to burn your market in the attempt unless you have a threat scary enough to make him think twice.

Actually that's another thing, there are a lot of dimensional markets (City of Brass, Atlantis, the other galaxy ones I'm only vaguely familiar with...).

Basically, everybody wants to be Sigil, but you can't be Sigil unless you've got (and are) a Lady of Pain.


Subject change: Capital Building! What are good ways for a party of insanely-powerful murderhobos who do not (yet) have an empire or even a home to go make big money fast? Remember that morality *is* an issue and just robbing the CS is probably not in the cards.

Related: what are good ways to get cheaper weapons and semi-trained personnel?

boring7 wrote:

taalismn wrote:Just as I've been building up my own PS/GNE kingdom, utilizing Rifts Earth's RIFTS as a means of embracing interdimensional trade, I feel, is a good way to build a larger kingdom with the means to unbreak Rifts Earth. Control the Rifts, the flow of magical energy, secure interdimensional travel, and hold large enough swaths of Earth territory and you can be on your way to building a Phaseworld-style commerce/travel service empire on Rifts Earth. Even if you can't build the technology/manpower to deal with all your problems, with enough money, you can buy/hire outside means to deal with the problem.

You'll still need enough power to deal with MOST of your problems. The other dimensional markets don't care for competition and there's always some jerk who thinks he's the ONLY guy smart enough to realize if he conquers the market he can be the new king of commerce. It doesn't matter that everyone will spank him or abandon the burnt-out market he ends up ruling, he's still going to burn your market in the attempt unless you have a threat scary enough to make him think twice.

Actually that's another thing, there are a lot of dimensional markets (City of Brass, Atlantis, the other galaxy ones I'm only vaguely familiar with...).

Basically, everybody wants to be Sigil, but you can't be Sigil unless you've got (and are) a Lady of Pain.


Subject change: Capital Building! What are good ways for a party of insanely-powerful murderhobos who do not (yet) have an empire or even a home to go make big money fast? Remember that morality *is* an issue and just robbing the CS is probably not in the cards.

Related: what are good ways to get cheaper weapons and semi-trained personnel?

one method to make money can be functioning as arms dealers, buy or otherwise aquire it cheap, then turn around and sell the stuff for a decent price through a "storefront" such as "bobs house of guns and armor, or do a "trader JOE" from mercenaries"
there is also likely to be some profit, in things like bounty hunting, item retrievals, (especially if you don't ask if the client really owns said item before you retrieve it for them)
trading in "protection" but a lot of times the rewards won't be cash etc.

boring7 wrote:Subject change: Capital Building! What are good ways for a party of insanely-powerful murderhobos who do not (yet) have an empire or even a home to go make big money fast? Remember that morality *is* an issue and just robbing the CS is probably not in the cards.

Related: what are good ways to get cheaper weapons and semi-trained personnel?

Well depends on the time frame you are working in I suppose. If it's during the Tolkeen war (like my campaign) then refugees could help build a support network and liberating slaves from slavers might help with weapons and semi-trained personnel. But your base of operations will likely need to be secluded and/or further out from the range you typically pounce on the slavers to avoid retribution.

But big money fast? Maybe ore processing? Places like Northern Gun, Ishpeming, CS, and other kingdoms would likely need more dependable sources of building resources. Recreate Big Pharma?

In addition building up a infrastructure in towns with profit from what ever you sale or adventures could a good way to make small towns want to join.

IE- you have plans for a 1.6 Mega watt wind turbine and build them in towns in your network, and wire the houses. People in towns and villages without power may want to be part of that.

Building and patrolling paved roads between towns to make travel and trade safer would stimulate the economy and make people want to be part of it.

If a town has resources placing a factory there to produce something others would buy would increase the resources. A food processing plant and shipping method in a farming town.

Having good ideals is just the start you need to build something to help every town grow and produce something that would be good for your economy.

Building a defense force to remove threats from the area would also be good idea.

boring7 wrote:Subject change: Capital Building! What are good ways for a party of insanely-powerful murderhobos who do not (yet) have an empire or even a home to go make big money fast? Remember that morality *is* an issue and just robbing the CS is probably not in the cards.

Related: what are good ways to get cheaper weapons and semi-trained personnel?

Best way to make lots of money is probably to hop over to another dimension, rob some totalitarian government blind, and then high-tail it back to Earth with all your stolen goods in tow. Maybe go to the Three Galaxies, steal a battleship from some bad guys, and then trade it for stuff you can sell on Rifts Earth. Even if you're taking a hit on every transaction (trade a ten billion dollar ship for 5 billion in goods, sell the goods for 2 billion back home), you're still making a ton of money. You could have some Guardians of the Galaxy type adventure to begin with, make a lot of cash, and then go set up your little kingdom.

I think any concerted effort to set up a place like this is going to require more than just powerful murderhobos. You're going to want powerful non-combat classes as well. Cyber-docs and Operators are probably necessary. I'd suggest after your "steal a starship" adventure, your ultra-powerful characters come to Rifts Earth and start recruiting. Each guy effectively goes out and starts his own player character group. So Bob the 9th level Cosmo-Knight is gonna go find 5 or 6 guys to adventure with and become friends with. Does his own little mini-campaign and then comes back to the rest of the primary group and brings his new buddies along. Steve the high level Shifter does the same thing, and so does Ricky the Temporal Wizard, Joey the dragon, and everybody else.

The goal is to get a bunch of people who are loyal to the original group, not just because they're being paid, but because they're on board with the philosophy of it and they're all friends. You aren't necessarily looking for combat monsters in these groups, you want a handful of guys with weird powers (psi-ghosts, nazca line drawers and such) and then a bunch of people with the ability to create stuff. They form the "second tier" of your organization. Some of them are going to go on special missions, and the rest are going to churn out weapons, armor, and soldiers for you. You probably want a few biomancers from South America, several operators and cyber-docs, and a few tattoo masters wouldn't hurt.

The next level of the organization are going to be the troops that your second tier guys create. Juicers, crazies, tattooed men, borgs. Offer competitive pricing and give good terms to guys who stay on as employees. Since you aren't doing it to make a profit, you can create these troops at cost.

The fastest way I know to make money as good guys.

Hunt slaver barges. Boarding a slaver barge and killing the slaver without destroying it can net you some profit add in the loot from the blind warrior women and hold items and you can turn a decent profit. The plus side you can offer the freed slaves sanctuary and a job in your town (they can trained to produce some sort of trade good to help build the base of a long term economy).

Other things that can help would be-
finding a working(or almost working) hidden pre Rifts factory.
Uncovering a catch of PA or military gear.
Skills to pay the bills(operators and TW with the right skills can trade or scavenge parts to build up infrastructure and defenses)
Protection-standing contract to protect a town or village for X amount every so often.
Medical clinic-a body fixer or cyber doc can almost always make money.
Prostitution-a well run whore house stands to make a regular income.
Discovering a resource catch of value that can be mined-stake and defend your claim.
Build a merc group. The players would be founding members and as they train and recruit new members the size grows.

boring7 wrote:Subject change: Capital Building! What are good ways for a party of insanely-powerful murderhobos who do not (yet) have an empire or even a home to go make big money fast? Remember that morality *is* an issue and just robbing the CS is probably not in the cards.

Step 1: Murder a dragon and drain all of its blood into refrigerated containers. Also, steal its bones.
Step 2: Go to the Palladium Fantasy Realm. Sell the blood and bones.
Step 3: Profit.

Related: what are good ways to get cheaper weapons and semi-trained personnel?

Haggle.

boring7 wrote:[

Related: what are good ways to get cheaper weapons and semi-trained personnel?

Start your own factory making Chipwell-style knockoffs in a region outside the core areas of high-tech industry....Pay the surrounding tribes in the knockoffs you're making to act as your militia, and hire the locals to work at your factories at a lower rate than those distant high-tech regions. They wouldn't be as good as the quality stuff from Triax or Northern Gun, but it will be better than nothing, and both local pride and necessity will keep the locals supporting you.
Mind you, there's always the chance that some local leader will figure THEY can run your business, and keep you as the captive wizard turning out cool new stuff, so don't abuse your authority and keep the good stuff to protect yourself.

Greepnak wrote:

SycophantNagaraja wrote:That was one of the books I missed picking up when it came out and I'm hoping when the finances are right I can circle back around and pick some of those up. But you bring up a good point. A simple lie from a reputable source can smooth over a lot to the masses so it might make it easier to cope with.

Smart, I like that. It fits very well into my campaign premise (Vanguard playing illuminati games, with Joseph Prosek's involvement)

It's worth noting re:illusion that it's fully convincing unto the point of being able to be killed by the illusion (Apparition spell) so the afflicted's own mind must interact with the magical construct to keep it legitimate with the environment.
Also worth noting Doc Reid's writings on vampires and how they use the illusion of humanity as a means to get close and duck retribution. It's not grandma it's a bloodthirsty sadist, but it acts just like grandma until it's too late. Truly frightening. Mexico's gotta go, even Mexico City probably. Then again, the Mexico City VI as a source of mass superhuman creation....?

Mexico City is, at least in theory, reasonable. Possibly more reasonable than Doc Reid (he *is* a crazy monster, any "clean out the vampires" plan usually needs a "deal with the monstrous half of Reid's Rangers" subsection) but it's still troublesome. On the flip side you don't have to CREATE superhumans, you can just hire the ones already there. The OTHER deal is that they fight each other so much you can take out the VIs with the help of other VIs, at least until late in the game.

Here's how I'd do it:

First I would get the Techno-Wizard to craft a line-powered (or pyramid-powered) device that mixes Magic Warrior, Create Golem, and Power Bolt. I don't know what would come out, but I would be willing to gamble the gems and time involved that it will do SOMETHING that can be used to defend an area. I might have to go pirate some pirates or knock over some bandits to buy the gems and/or spells, but that's detail-work. Planning and crafting such a device wouldn't take very long, unless I am mistaken, and testing the device is as easy as going to a leyline.

Success or failure, step 2 is to march into the Yucatan. I spend a few weeks working on establishing an alliance (or at least acquaintance) with the Were-jaguar tribes. I try to get an "observer" to come along (and create one of those really hoss melee weapons) when our gang kills Camazotz. We also kill his pet not-quite-runesmith and his slave VI and stick his head in a duffel bag. I realize knocking over a demon-lord as the first move is a big deal, but it needs to be done and doing it first helps in a lot of ways.

Step 3, with Chichen Itza cleared, we fortify it with whatever I have (hopefully energy-bolt shooting stone warriors) and try to convince/cajole one or more werejaguar tribe to settle there. As long as I have steady access to the healing spring (which I will be using sparingly) and the place is fortified by people you can reason with, the details are of little consequence. I might end up turning the well's resurrection power into a defense system. Collect dead heroes, bring 'em back, tell them, "You have been restored to life, the price is that you must remain here and defend the well for one year." And considering one vial is a potion of "heal all the damage" it's REAL nice for anyone in the party whose HP/MDC matter.

Step 4 may take some time. I'd want to get my ducks in a row, gather up a decent (and loyal) force of soldiers and competent administrators ready to move in. Fortunately Chichen Itza water is VERY valuable and even if I have to resort to buying slaves and (after freeing them) begging them to join me I can probably get a group together fairly quickly. I need some teachers, some professionals, some soldiers, some police, and some administrators, I also need 4-6 heavy APCs and at least one guy who can cast the Dig spell (other earth spells are a plus). Possibly a boat will also be involved.

Step 5, Muluc dies. Raiding him is EASIER than raiding Camazotz, so no big deal there. My minions will know he's dead when the staked vampire they're watching turns to dust, and they will immediately move in on Eltajin and Muluc City. Capitalizing on the confusion should be easy, and "winning hearts and minds" will be fairly simple. A few hunting trips followed by a few free-for-all Dinosaur cookouts and establishing decent vampire defenses (both cities have enough water to build a multi-layer moat and stick crosses on every house) should do most of it.

Step 6, Use the head of Camazotz and a combination of diplomacy and intimidation to convince Mexico City and Milta to recognize our sovereignty. If necessary we "make a few examples" by killing vampires and beating back counter-raids. ALWAYS offer both the carrot and the stick.

At this point I have to decide if I'm going to use the vampires or just remove them. If I intend to use them I just start hiring secondary vampires as mercenaries, having them "thrallherd" large groups of wild vampires in Northern Mexico, and then throwing both at whatever targets need to be hit.

If I just wanna kill 'em all, I manipulate Reid's Rangers into conquering Ixzotz (when I kill the VI it becomes RELATIVELY easy...they'll still need to deal with some Brodkil, shifters, and related beasties). When the rangers are spread out I assassinate the crazy jerk half of their leadership (Reid, Planktal-Nakton, Sir Lazarious, General Wilding...Carlotta and Pequita might not even be a problem if my assassinations are sneaky enough) and frame the vampires. While the treaties I signed with Mexico City and Milta preclude me from directly striking my neighbors the white-hot vengeance drive of the Rangers and some under-the-table assistance from me to their Lemurian allies (degrees of separation) should result in the remaining two known VIs ceasing to be a problem.

After that, it's simply a matter of using magic, technology, and magitech to turn the various cities into industrial powerhouses. The remaining free members of Ironheart Armaments *specifically* have experience turning backwards communities into industrial powers and are currently hiding in Vampire territory. If I'm quick enough the farms that I upgrade and start defending will end up saving the CS from starvation during the Minion War, and Mexico has a lot of useful resources. As does anyone who abuses a handful of item creation spells.

More on how to fortify farms against all the things later, it's already WAY later than I should be up.

The way I would go about dealing with vampires with out vast use of metagame knowledge?
I would start making the various anti-vampire spells available to mages. As in organize the teaching of them to every mage possible with instructions that they are to teach any other mages that they can...
...the goal here is to get them so common that they enter the 'generic' zone.
Aka in some future you would roll up a mage and just note them on your sheet before picking your spells because "everyone knows those spells duh"

While this won't in and of itself kill off the vampires it will do a lot to making things really unpleasant for them. It will also provide the dual bonus of helping to make sure that groups facing them are better equipped to do so and helping to improve the reputation and status of magic users... win/win right there.

Spells I would pick for this included
Globe of Daylight
Lifeblast
Eyes of the Dead
Divining Graves and Tombs
Sense Undead
Undo Undead
Blood Ward
Enchant the Mighty Rooster*

eliakon wrote:The way I would go about dealing with vampires with out vast use of metagame knowledge?
I would start making the various anti-vampire spells available to mages. As in organize the teaching of them to every mage possible with instructions that they are to teach any other mages that they can...
...the goal here is to get them so common that they enter the 'generic' zone.
Aka in some future you would roll up a mage and just note them on your sheet before picking your spells because "everyone knows those spells duh"

While this won't in and of itself kill off the vampires it will do a lot to making things really unpleasant for them. It will also provide the dual bonus of helping to make sure that groups facing them are better equipped to do so and helping to improve the reputation and status of magic users... win/win right there.

Spells I would pick for this included
Globe of Daylight
Lifeblast
Eyes of the Dead
Divining Graves and Tombs
Sense Undead
Undo Undead
Blood Ward
Enchant the Mighty Rooster*

Yeah, I am metagaming the heck out of things.

If you're allowed to make a new spell (that's on par with existing ones) a great one would be an earth-moving spell. If you can completely encircle an area you want to protect with water and add a pump or two to keep the water "running" (think the 'lazy river' rides in water parks) you make it VERY difficult for vampires to get in. All you need is a way to dig a big trench ('Dig' is an elemental spell, so that's a problem for regular invokers) and preferably a way to make the trench MDC (some sort of permanent 'Wall of Stone'...which is also an elemental spell).

It doesn't even have to be common knowledge, since a few people can use it to fortify entire communities.

*looks again* I'm not familiar with "Undo Undead". Which book is that in?

Anyways, along with getting every spellcaster kitted, it's important to remember the people WITHOUT magic. Silver is expensive as heck, and wooden bullets are a real thing in the real world. I would think that you can get a factory going which makes wooden SDC bullets and rapid-fire guns. Wood grenades exist in Arzno (mentioned ONCE as part of the TW vampire-killer chainsaw) and are awesome, though if memory serves they got nerf-hammered in Vampire Sourcebook.

For the groups with good equipment on their side, I have a hypothetical weapon that is essentially game-breaking as it pertains to vampires. You use lenses to concentrate sunlight onto one end of a fiber-optic cable, and end up creating a "sunlight hose". Of course, like the weapons that are both MD and silver/wood, things that one-shot vamps tend to be removed or nerfed.

boring7 wrote:Step 3, with Chichen Itza cleared, we fortify it with whatever I have (hopefully energy-bolt shooting stone warriors) and try to convince/cajole one or more werejaguar tribe to settle there. As long as I have steady access to the healing spring (which I will be using sparingly) and the place is fortified by people you can reason with, the details are of little consequence. I might end up turning the well's resurrection power into a defense system. Collect dead heroes, bring 'em back, tell them, "You have been restored to life, the price is that you must remain here and defend the well for one year." And considering one vial is a potion of "heal all the damage" it's REAL nice for anyone in the party whose HP/MDC matter.

Step 4 may take some time. I'd want to get my ducks in a row, gather up a decent (and loyal) force of soldiers and competent administrators ready to move in. Fortunately Chichen Itza water is VERY valuable

What could be the potential benefits of eating pizza made from that water?

There should be vampire pizza chefs. They wouldn't even need oven mitts.

Axelmania wrote:

boring7 wrote:

What could be the potential benefits of eating pizza made from that water?

There should be vampire pizza chefs. They wouldn't even need oven mitts.

Not sure mixing magic waters with mundane ingredients would be such a great idea....Though you might get some ideas from the Rifter article on megacookery and the effects of magic ingredients.
Any effect watering your pizza dough with magic water, though, would be on the negligible and negatively unpredictable side, as most of the water would evaporate off, unless you're diluting the sauce heavily to the point of it being less pizza and more tomato soup in a bread bowl.

Frankly, though, I wouldn't trust vamps with cooking; their tastes have moved towards blood. Fullcon cyborgs, if they still have tastebuds, on the other hand...

Got a couple of questions that are GM-ruling:

-As of Vampire Sourcebook Vampires take x2 damage from silver, VIs take x3 damage from silver, and vampires take "only" normal damage from silver bullets. If I point a Minigun (with silver ammo) at a Vampire Intelligence, how much damage am I going to do?

-SDC machine guns in Merc Ops can get up to 2d6x100 SDC (Merc ops 121), Vampire Sourcebook nerfs that into the ground (I wanna say 3d6*10 SDC). Would those new stats only apply against vampires in your game, or can super-heavy machine guns no longer do MD?

-If you have a weapon that is magically-hardened silver, capable of doing Mega-damage on its own, will it still only do HP to vampires despite being silver AND magic?

Yes, I *have* spent too much time trying to figure the best way to one-round a VI.

boring7 wrote:

eliakon wrote:The way I would go about dealing with vampires with out vast use of metagame knowledge?
I would start making the various anti-vampire spells available to mages. As in organize the teaching of them to every mage possible with instructions that they are to teach any other mages that they can...
...the goal here is to get them so common that they enter the 'generic' zone.
Aka in some future you would roll up a mage and just note them on your sheet before picking your spells because "everyone knows those spells duh"

While this won't in and of itself kill off the vampires it will do a lot to making things really unpleasant for them. It will also provide the dual bonus of helping to make sure that groups facing them are better equipped to do so and helping to improve the reputation and status of magic users... win/win right there.

Spells I would pick for this included
Globe of Daylight
Lifeblast
Eyes of the Dead
Divining Graves and Tombs
Sense Undead
Undo Undead
Blood Ward
Enchant the Mighty Rooster*

Yeah, I am metagaming the heck out of things.

If you're allowed to make a new spell (that's on par with existing ones) a great one would be an earth-moving spell. If you can completely encircle an area you want to protect with water and add a pump or two to keep the water "running" (think the 'lazy river' rides in water parks) you make it VERY difficult for vampires to get in. All you need is a way to dig a big trench ('Dig' is an elemental spell, so that's a problem for regular invokers) and preferably a way to make the trench MDC (some sort of permanent 'Wall of Stone'...which is also an elemental spell).

It doesn't even have to be common knowledge, since a few people can use it to fortify entire communities.

*looks again* I'm not familiar with "Undo Undead". Which book is that in?

Anyways, along with getting every spellcaster kitted, it's important to remember the people WITHOUT magic. Silver is expensive as heck, and wooden bullets are a real thing in the real world. I would think that you can get a factory going which makes wooden SDC bullets and rapid-fire guns. Wood grenades exist in Arzno (mentioned ONCE as part of the TW vampire-killer chainsaw) and are awesome, though if memory serves they got nerf-hammered in Vampire Sourcebook.

For the groups with good equipment on their side, I have a hypothetical weapon that is essentially game-breaking as it pertains to vampires. You use lenses to concentrate sunlight onto one end of a fiber-optic cable, and end up creating a "sunlight hose". Of course, like the weapons that are both MD and silver/wood, things that one-shot vamps tend to be removed or nerfed.

The only official rules for creating spells are found in a night bane source book Through the Glass Darkly. In of it self there is no conflict with Rifts rules that I know of so it should be viable to use in rifts. The faq in the cutting room floor suggest using it for other games.

Guys are missing an easy one the Vampires and Splugorth hate each other have them fight each other then take out the winner in a weakened state great job for the Coalition then take them out when there at a weak point. Archie just send a few nukes into his base and bury him or turn him to slag.

>thinking vampires could weaken Splugorth significantly

They at best are a best who create merchandise depreciation.

Greepnak wrote:So the theme of my campaign of the last few months has solidified into unbreaking the problems with Rifts Earth in meaningful lasting ways. The Coalition is actually being run by an illuminati type group of which an immortal Joseph Prosek (he is also his own grandpa) is a part to take the humans of North America on an abbreviated historical trajectory from "dirty tribal barbarians" to "civilized" in a very Lelouche of the Rebellion sort of way.

They're doing this because they want North America, at least, to be a safe home for humanity and to change the view of the Splugorth of Atlantis from seeing humans as slave stock/amusement to a legitimate entity to be feared or bargained with.

So to make this happen, NA needs to be made truly safe which means re-integrating magic into society in a way that works beyond something controlled almost tyrannically like Dweomer (DONT EAT PEOPLE.. BECAUSE THE LoM SAY SO..that wont work on a scale of millions)while maintaining the big scary shared enemy mindset that glues the CS together in the absence of the things that normally build large safe empires like trade and long range communication. I'm aiming for a similar story to the origin of the Federation of Planets from ST after the Eugenics Wars where the best of humanity gets a chance to shine but only after a period of terrible race-wide sufferring that becomes a shared experience the future is built upon.

So my party is VERY strong (including cosmo knights).

And I want to incentivize them to make real change everywhere from correctly assassinating the worst of the CS leadership (like the guy who ran the camps in the tolkeen war eff that guy... and scaard while I'm at it) to getting the orbital colonies and Lunar Base on board with the future.

So as I see it, the firmly in the setting problems appropriate for player characters to address could be...

Fix the Sky. Orbiting satellites are crucial. How would you do that, especially if you had cosmo knights to work with?

Fix Mexico. This one's sticky because Mexico City is technically the safest place for humans on earth already, but its under the yoke of evil. Thoughts?

Fix Canada. Calgary needs to be more or less nuked from orbit and the rift closed somehow.

Kick the Minion War's Butt. Self Explanatory. This should involve fixing the CS's resource problems as detailed in Heroes of Humanity, but my J. Prosek and the Vanguard want CS troopers to get more experience seeing d-bees and magic users in heroic scenarios as part of their Long Plan to steer the CS into a more egalitarian pre-Nostrous Dunscon society in the decades to come. Side note, I really like that the real reason behind the tolkeen war was mining in North Dakota as presented in HoH.

Fix International Travel. Possibly resolvable if the CS can solve the above and integrate magic ? The Lord of the Deep or Atlantis can't do much about cross-planet ley line teleportation. But that being said, I want to kill the Lord of the Deep and bring the Lemurians on board. Thoughts?

New Balance of Terror. Somehow get Phase World tech into hands of major human powers like the CS and NGR maybe without putting the Splugorth into " OUR KITTANI SHIPS WILL BLOT OUT THE SUNNNNNN" mode? Maybe?


What else?

If anyone cares much, I wrote a plea and abbreviated history lesson from Prosek himself to my player characters (who are all firmly anti-cs thanks to the whole imagery thing) for the sake of telling the story from an unreliable narrator's point of view plus to free my players from needing thirty world books.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11oE ... Fiz24/edit

What else would you think would be really needed to really unbreak rifts earth, or at least get North America in a solid position?

"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy."

Really step one is get a bunch of stone mages and start capping every nexus point. This seems like the best way to calm down the one biggest problem with rifts earth which is out of control rampaging magic stuff. Cap the flow to a level you can control and you have not only fixed the majority of incursions by things from beyond but also now have world wide instantaneous travel infrastructure and energy that can be used to build cities and towns.

In theory things even as bad as the ST lewis arch mega rift could be closed down if you could cap all the ley lines feeding into it and just choke it off. With the lemurians making more of an appearance it would be a pretty reasonable way to start working to stabilize large areas.

Until you can get all the portals either closed or controlled you can kill as many dbee's/monsters/demons/devils as you want but there is an infinite universe of more of them that will get perpetually dumped randomly about the world.

I think the CS could even get behind that because if their goal is to get rid of Dbees the first step needs to be stop more from coming every day. Once you accomplish that a lot of Dbee's would simply die out soon enough due to lack of population diversity over time. If you can't find more of your own kind to breed with and have a big enough genetic pool to work with the problem with Dbees is largely self correcting if you can stop new ones from coming.

kaid wrote:

Greepnak wrote:So the theme of my campaign of the last few months has solidified into unbreaking the problems with Rifts Earth in meaningful lasting ways. The Coalition is actually being run by an illuminati type group of which an immortal Joseph Prosek (he is also his own grandpa) is a part to take the humans of North America on an abbreviated historical trajectory from "dirty tribal barbarians" to "civilized" in a very Lelouche of the Rebellion sort of way.

They're doing this because they want North America, at least, to be a safe home for humanity and to change the view of the Splugorth of Atlantis from seeing humans as slave stock/amusement to a legitimate entity to be feared or bargained with.

So to make this happen, NA needs to be made truly safe which means re-integrating magic into society in a way that works beyond something controlled almost tyrannically like Dweomer (DONT EAT PEOPLE.. BECAUSE THE LoM SAY SO..that wont work on a scale of millions)while maintaining the big scary shared enemy mindset that glues the CS together in the absence of the things that normally build large safe empires like trade and long range communication. I'm aiming for a similar story to the origin of the Federation of Planets from ST after the Eugenics Wars where the best of humanity gets a chance to shine but only after a period of terrible race-wide sufferring that becomes a shared experience the future is built upon.

So my party is VERY strong (including cosmo knights).

And I want to incentivize them to make real change everywhere from correctly assassinating the worst of the CS leadership (like the guy who ran the camps in the tolkeen war eff that guy... and scaard while I'm at it) to getting the orbital colonies and Lunar Base on board with the future.

So as I see it, the firmly in the setting problems appropriate for player characters to address could be...

Fix the Sky. Orbiting satellites are crucial. How would you do that, especially if you had cosmo knights to work with?

Fix Mexico. This one's sticky because Mexico City is technically the safest place for humans on earth already, but its under the yoke of evil. Thoughts?

Fix Canada. Calgary needs to be more or less nuked from orbit and the rift closed somehow.

Kick the Minion War's Butt. Self Explanatory. This should involve fixing the CS's resource problems as detailed in Heroes of Humanity, but my J. Prosek and the Vanguard want CS troopers to get more experience seeing d-bees and magic users in heroic scenarios as part of their Long Plan to steer the CS into a more egalitarian pre-Nostrous Dunscon society in the decades to come. Side note, I really like that the real reason behind the tolkeen war was mining in North Dakota as presented in HoH.

Fix International Travel. Possibly resolvable if the CS can solve the above and integrate magic ? The Lord of the Deep or Atlantis can't do much about cross-planet ley line teleportation. But that being said, I want to kill the Lord of the Deep and bring the Lemurians on board. Thoughts?

New Balance of Terror. Somehow get Phase World tech into hands of major human powers like the CS and NGR maybe without putting the Splugorth into " OUR KITTANI SHIPS WILL BLOT OUT THE SUNNNNNN" mode? Maybe?


What else?

If anyone cares much, I wrote a plea and abbreviated history lesson from Prosek himself to my player characters (who are all firmly anti-cs thanks to the whole imagery thing) for the sake of telling the story from an unreliable narrator's point of view plus to free my players from needing thirty world books.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11oE ... Fiz24/edit

What else would you think would be really needed to really unbreak rifts earth, or at least get North America in a solid position?

"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy."

Really step one is get a bunch of stone mages and start capping every nexus point. This seems like the best way to calm down the one biggest problem with rifts earth which is out of control rampaging magic stuff. Cap the flow to a level you can control and you have not only fixed the majority of incursions by things from beyond but also now have world wide instantaneous travel infrastructure and energy that can be used to build cities and towns.

In theory things even as bad as the ST lewis arch mega rift could be closed down if you could cap all the ley lines feeding into it and just choke it off. With the lemurians making more of an appearance it would be a pretty reasonable way to start working to stabilize large areas.

Until you can get all the portals either closed or controlled you can kill as many dbee's/monsters/demons/devils as you want but there is an infinite universe of more of them that will get perpetually dumped randomly about the world.

I think the CS could even get behind that because if their goal is to get rid of Dbees the first step needs to be stop more from coming every day. Once you accomplish that a lot of Dbee's would simply die out soon enough due to lack of population diversity over time. If you can't find more of your own kind to breed with and have a big enough genetic pool to work with the problem with Dbees is largely self correcting if you can stop new ones from coming.

This is actually well supported by Canon...
The Atlantian colony of Alexandria in the 3 Galaxies was settled because the Atlantians needed to tend the series of Pyramids and stone structures they had constructed on the planet to control its raging ley lines...
which were said to be worse, and more powerful than Rifts Earth. So if they could shut down that then shutting down Rifts Earth should be a (relative) snap.
Of course you would have to stop killing all the mages who are trying to build Pyramids and TW control systems and such...
but that's a totally different issue.