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eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:
I think my post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't criticizing the book or the game. Rather, I was reflecting on just how awful the Rifts World is and has become with the Minion Wars. In the context of this topic, the relative inefficacy of the Cyber Knights due to their principled stand against taking sides or building a political power structure leaves the Coalition as the preeminent guardians of humanity by default.

Why does it have to be a choice between the CS and the CK?
Why is it a binary condition where if the CK (and only the CK) do not become the rulers of NA then the CS must be?
Why can't it be a choice between the CS and Not-CS where Not-CS is "Any force or alliance of forces that creates a counterbalance sufficient to limit, stop or outweigh the CS and/or have prevented its creation in the first place"?

That's an excellent point; it's hard to capture all the nuance of a scenario like Rifts North America in a two-sentence reply. To answer your questions, it doesn't have to be a binary choice or condition. That said, I think it's a fair approximation of the situation, because the same critique could be applied to most of the "guardian" types of factions out there, including the Tundra Rangers, Justice Rangers, et cetera.

One might even argue that this applies to a lesser degree to Lazlo and New Lazlo; while both are more established powers, their lack of ambition beyond the meager borders of their city-states hamstrings their ability to fight a major conflict. The one effort in which they have made any significant difference has been against the Xiticix threat, and that's been mostly by surgical strike assassinations than by any large-scale action. While the "not CS" factions together could create an effective counterbalance to the CS, it's an implausible scenario. Imagine what it would take for the Federation of Magic to team up with Lazlo, Free Quebec, New Lazlo, the gangs of the Pecos Empire, the Republicans, ARCHIE, Northern Gun/Ishpeming, et cetera. Supply lines aside, many of those groups are so fundamentally incompatible that they might well shoot each other on sight.

Still, it might be possible for some more plausible alliance to counter the CS. How would you do it?

eliakon wrote:

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity.

Neither can Hades or Dyvall.
In fact the only group that has any ability what so ever over souls canonically is the Chinese who get them via subcontracting from their Jade Emperor who sends them the souls of sinners for punishment (or of course those who make the appropriate pacts)

I think you may need to look over the minion war books again. Both demons and devils make heavy use of blood magic and soulmancy that are powered by and designed to rip souls out of unwilling victims and then utilize them to power various weapons/evil artifacts/war machines. So yes when you are fighting the forces in the minion war one side can and will rip your soul out to use it for its own devices and the other side will not. As evil as the CS can be they do not attempt to rip your soul out and entrap it.

eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity. For all the myriad flaws the CS has and the evil they do nobody can argue they don't hate demons and the supernatural with a white hot passion and are willing to throw the entire power of their nation into fighting demons/devils.

They also were rational enough that when they saw a possible new demon plague starting to immediately go into full out response to smash it as fast as possible before the demons gain to many footholds.

I think my post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't criticizing the book or the game. Rather, I was reflecting on just how awful the Rifts World is and has become with the Minion Wars. In the context of this topic, the relative inefficacy of the Cyber Knights due to their principled stand against taking sides or building a political power structure leaves the Coalition as the preeminent guardians of humanity by default.

Why does it have to be a choice between the CS and the CK?
Why is it a binary condition where if the CK (and only the CK) do not become the rulers of NA then the CS must be?
Why can't it be a choice between the CS and Not-CS where Not-CS is "Any force or alliance of forces that creates a counterbalance sufficient to limit, stop or outweigh the CS and/or have prevented its creation in the first place"?

Simply because the CS has multiple well fortified cities with a large industrial base and a large population base and the cyber knights are few/have no major industrial might and minimal numbers. Even if they all concentrated in one spot with their entire force and squires and friend it still is a drop in the bucket compared to the CS. The cyberknights are good at a lot of things such as covert strikes up vs the calgary hell pit but they simply lack the numbers and might to be a player on the scale of the CS.

Even if every other major city of "good" in north america banded together under the banner of the cyberknights they still likely would wind up being pretty tiny in comparison. Look at the population listing of the various cities like lazlo and dweomer they just are not that big.

kaid wrote:

eliakon wrote:

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity.

Neither can Hades or Dyvall.
In fact the only group that has any ability what so ever over souls canonically is the Chinese who get them via subcontracting from their Jade Emperor who sends them the souls of sinners for punishment (or of course those who make the appropriate pacts)

I think you may need to look over the minion war books again. Both demons and devils make heavy use of blood magic and soulmancy that are powered by and designed to rip souls out of unwilling victims and then utilize them to power various weapons/evil artifacts/war machines. So yes when you are fighting the forces in the minion war one side can and will rip your soul out to use it for its own devices and the other side will not. As evil as the CS can be they do not attempt to rip your soul out and entrap it.

I have read the books rather thoroughly. That is why I said what I did.
Setting aside the fact that there still isn't a canon description on what a soul is.
I would still point out that you don't "go to hell"
There is, quite literally, no canonical after life in Palladium with the unique exception of the Chinese.
Using Rune Magic or Soulmancy it is possible to capture the souls (maybe. Gelba did a pretty heavy retcon there in Armageddon Unlimited and souls may not actually be souls for example...) and use them a fuel for certain forms of magic.
What happens then is, canonically a total mystery.

And of course one could point out that the CS is still genocidal evil and that it is a false dilemma to pretend that you are required to pick only one of the two evils as the one that you want making the entire issue moot.

kaid wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

kaid wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Heroes of Humanity: The genocidal skull-fetish Nazis who outlaw books and breed entire races of slaves are the good guys now!

Well when the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity. For all the myriad flaws the CS has and the evil they do nobody can argue they don't hate demons and the supernatural with a white hot passion and are willing to throw the entire power of their nation into fighting demons/devils.

They also were rational enough that when they saw a possible new demon plague starting to immediately go into full out response to smash it as fast as possible before the demons gain to many footholds.

I think my post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't criticizing the book or the game. Rather, I was reflecting on just how awful the Rifts World is and has become with the Minion Wars. In the context of this topic, the relative inefficacy of the Cyber Knights due to their principled stand against taking sides or building a political power structure leaves the Coalition as the preeminent guardians of humanity by default.

Why does it have to be a choice between the CS and the CK?
Why is it a binary condition where if the CK (and only the CK) do not become the rulers of NA then the CS must be?
Why can't it be a choice between the CS and Not-CS where Not-CS is "Any force or alliance of forces that creates a counterbalance sufficient to limit, stop or outweigh the CS and/or have prevented its creation in the first place"?

Simply because the CS has multiple well fortified cities with a large industrial base and a large population base and the cyber knights are few/have no major industrial might and minimal numbers. Even if they all concentrated in one spot with their entire force and squires and friend it still is a drop in the bucket compared to the CS. The cyberknights are good at a lot of things such as covert strikes up vs the calgary hell pit but they simply lack the numbers and might to be a player on the scale of the CS.

Even if every other major city of "good" in north america banded together under the banner of the cyberknights they still likely would wind up being pretty tiny in comparison. Look at the population listing of the various cities like lazlo and dweomer they just are not that big.

That was sort of my point.
The presented choice was a false one to begin with. There never was an option for the Cyber-Knights to set up as a major power that would of set the CS and allow the CK to become the "preeminent guardians of humanity". Most of the states that make up the current CS were already in existence before the CKs were even a thing, let alone before Lord Coake had the 'street cred' to be anything other than yet another D-Bee warlord.
With out moving the timeline for the CKs back a century or two or giving Coake authorial level prescience so that he would know which threats to stop, which battles had to be prevented, which warlords would cause problems a century later and which ones could be safely ignored...
Short of that? Nothing could have been done to change things.
We have the luxury of looking back and being able to see the entire history and know every single turning point, we now know why they were critical and how and why they will shape events that will happen decades later. We now know that certain individuals are important because they will rise to power based on events in their youth...
...but it is rather like asking why no one stopped the Nazis because it was obvious that it all could have been prevented by setting up a better peace after WW I. Or asking why no one prevented Mao from taking over China by not getting the Tsars of Russia to pay attention to the concerns of the peasantry and establishing a just constitutional monarchy which would stop international Communism from ever happening.
Because no one at the time knew that those things were going to happen and thus because they couldn't predict ripple on effects of their actions 10, 20, 100, 200 years down the road acted in ways that seemed like the best ones at the time.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:I hear all the reasons why Coake SHOULDN'T or COULDN'T establish a nation led by Cyber-Knights, many of them have merit.

I am claiming that he WOULDN'T. Ask yourself if Lord Coake had discovered the Lone Star Complex in 55PA( before the Coalition) would he have walked away from the opportunity to build a nation that could compete with Chi-Town?

What about Lord Coake makes you think that he'd be interested in nation-building?

Nothing. I Reread the Cyber-Knights SoT4 and his own words pretty much spell out his aversion to the hard choices he would have to make as the leader of a nation. His decision not to help the inevitable refugees of Tolkien in a more organized way is also very telling.

I think a man of Coake's strength, wisdom, and renown could help more people as the head of a nation. He seems to think that the reputation of the Knights is more important, or perhaps there is another reason.

I am not trying to run him down. He is legendary, no doubt. I just think he is not as shiney bright as is portrayed. I makes me wonder what might have been, especially when viewed from the fantage of an eventual CS "Cleansing" of NA.


Thanks for your Post.

eliakon wrote:

kaid wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:I think my post gave the wrong impression. I wasn't criticizing the book or the game. Rather, I was reflecting on just how awful the Rifts World is and has become with the Minion Wars. In the context of this topic, the relative inefficacy of the Cyber Knights due to their principled stand against taking sides or building a political power structure leaves the Coalition as the preeminent guardians of humanity by default.

Why does it have to be a choice between the CS and the CK?
Why is it a binary condition where if the CK (and only the CK) do not become the rulers of NA then the CS must be?
Why can't it be a choice between the CS and Not-CS where Not-CS is "Any force or alliance of forces that creates a counterbalance sufficient to limit, stop or outweigh the CS and/or have prevented its creation in the first place"?

Simply because the CS has multiple well fortified cities with a large industrial base and a large population base and the cyber knights are few/have no major industrial might and minimal numbers. Even if they all concentrated in one spot with their entire force and squires and friend it still is a drop in the bucket compared to the CS. The cyberknights are good at a lot of things such as covert strikes up vs the calgary hell pit but they simply lack the numbers and might to be a player on the scale of the CS.

Even if every other major city of "good" in north america banded together under the banner of the cyberknights they still likely would wind up being pretty tiny in comparison. Look at the population listing of the various cities like lazlo and dweomer they just are not that big.

That was sort of my point.
The presented choice was a false one to begin with. There never was an option for the Cyber-Knights to set up as a major power that would of set the CS and allow the CK to become the "preeminent guardians of humanity". Most of the states that make up the current CS were already in existence before the CKs were even a thing, let alone before Lord Coake had the 'street cred' to be anything other than yet another D-Bee warlord.
With out moving the timeline for the CKs back a century or two or giving Coake authorial level prescience so that he would know which threats to stop, which battles had to be prevented, which warlords would cause problems a century later and which ones could be safely ignored...
Short of that? Nothing could have been done to change things.
We have the luxury of looking back and being able to see the entire history and know every single turning point, we now know why they were critical and how and why they will shape events that will happen decades later. We now know that certain individuals are important because they will rise to power based on events in their youth...
...but it is rather like asking why no one stopped the Nazis because it was obvious that it all could have been prevented by setting up a better peace after WW I. Or asking why no one prevented Mao from taking over China by not getting the Tsars of Russia to pay attention to the concerns of the peasantry and establishing a just constitutional monarchy which would stop international Communism from ever happening.
Because no one at the time knew that those things were going to happen and thus because they couldn't predict ripple on effects of their actions 10, 20, 100, 200 years down the road acted in ways that seemed like the best ones at the time.

given how little they started with, the best course for the Cyberknights was the one they took in the official material.. to become inspirational protectors for the common people and inhabitants of the less industrialized villages and towns, helping them develop their own defenses, leadership, and justice systems. encouraging cooperation, and ensuring the towns are protected so they can grow. basically creating the fertile soil where the seeds of future nations and alliances can grow on its own.

such an approach is a better one too.. if they try to nation build around Coake as a king, taking over rule of towns and villages, and using cyberknights as an army, and they fail, that is a lot of people dead. and really.. the enviroment of rifts is filled with would be warlords, el-presidente's, and other people trying to build nations by force.. it is an overpopulated political ecosystem, even looking at the stuff outside the major players. the cyberknights don;t really bring anything special to that early on, aside from a few gimmicks. the towns they tried to take over and use as a core of a nation would have been overrun eventually.. and if not, would have been under constant siege by other would-be kings.
by encouraging the towns and villages to organize themselves and defend themselves, if the cyberknights failed.. well the towns would still go on the way they were before the cyberknights came. the cyberknight approach is one in which even if they failed, they didn't lose. given how tentative those early decades would have been in terms of whether the order would even grow and survive, this sort of approach is much better for the people the Knights wanted to protect. plus, if the town can defend itself, it lets the town have more control.. some of those would-be-kings might be perfectly willing to work alliances and deals to get a town if it is independent and defended enough to make conquest dicey. which gives the town a huge bargaining chip and influence.

That was sort of my point.
The presented choice was a false one to begin with. There never was an option for the Cyber-Knights to set up as a major power that would of set the CS and allow the CK to become the "preeminent guardians of humanity". Most of the states that make up the current CS were already in existence before the CKs were even a thing, let alone before Lord Coake had the 'street cred' to be anything other than yet another D-Bee warlord.
With out moving the timeline for the CKs back a century or two or giving Coake authorial level prescience so that he would know which threats to stop, which battles had to be prevented, which warlords would cause problems a century later and which ones could be safely ignored...
Short of that? Nothing could have been done to change things.
We have the luxury of looking back and being able to see the entire history and know every single turning point, we now know why they were critical and how and why they will shape events that will happen decades later. We now know that certain individuals are important because they will rise to power based on events in their youth...
...but it is rather like asking why no one stopped the Nazis because it was obvious that it all could have been prevented by setting up a better peace after WW I. Or asking why no one prevented Mao from taking over China by not getting the Tsars of Russia to pay attention to the concerns of the peasantry and establishing a just constitutional monarchy which would stop international Communism from ever happening.
Because no one at the time knew that those things were going to happen and thus because they couldn't predict ripple on effects of their actions 10, 20, 100, 200 years down the road acted in ways that seemed like the best ones at the time.[/quote]


Good points. At what point do you think Erin Tarn, Lord Coake, The Republicans, and Plato of Lazlo all saw that the CS had become too "Evilish'(That's for you Axelmania!) and too large to be managed? What are they waiting for?

It doesn't do much good to go back before 101PA, but the choices available to these individuals during the runup and into the SoT could have changed history for the better.

Mr. Seimbeida repeatedly shows us examples of towns booming up out of nowhere because of the hope of a better future and the promise of security. My premise isn't really so far fetched. Especially if we have these heroes at the fore and a large portion of the remains of Tolkein as a starting point.

Thanks for your post.

SereneTsunami wrote:

eliakon wrote: That was sort of my point.
The presented choice was a false one to begin with. There never was an option for the Cyber-Knights to set up as a major power that would of set the CS and allow the CK to become the "preeminent guardians of humanity". Most of the states that make up the current CS were already in existence before the CKs were even a thing, let alone before Lord Coake had the 'street cred' to be anything other than yet another D-Bee warlord.
With out moving the timeline for the CKs back a century or two or giving Coake authorial level prescience so that he would know which threats to stop, which battles had to be prevented, which warlords would cause problems a century later and which ones could be safely ignored...
Short of that? Nothing could have been done to change things.
We have the luxury of looking back and being able to see the entire history and know every single turning point, we now know why they were critical and how and why they will shape events that will happen decades later. We now know that certain individuals are important because they will rise to power based on events in their youth...
...but it is rather like asking why no one stopped the Nazis because it was obvious that it all could have been prevented by setting up a better peace after WW I. Or asking why no one prevented Mao from taking over China by not getting the Tsars of Russia to pay attention to the concerns of the peasantry and establishing a just constitutional monarchy which would stop international Communism from ever happening.
Because no one at the time knew that those things were going to happen and thus because they couldn't predict ripple on effects of their actions 10, 20, 100, 200 years down the road acted in ways that seemed like the best ones at the time.

(fixed quote for you for legibility. Now on to the actual issues.)

SereneTsunami wrote:Good points. At what point do you think Erin Tarn, Lord Coake, The Republicans, and Plato of Lazlo all saw that the CS had become too "Evilish'(That's for you Axelmania!) and too large to be managed? What are they waiting for?
It doesn't do much good to go back before 101PA, but the choices available to these individuals during the runup and into the SoT could have changed history for the better.

I'm not sure.
By that time honestly... Tolkeen was a lost cause unless the rest of the Continent was willing to jump in on their side and bring in extra-dimensional allies.
Well before 101 PA (the date in the RMB) the CS was already clearly evil, and clearly setting up for a war against Tolkeen.
The only way to stop said war would have been to present a deterrent big enough to threaten the CS.

SereneTsunami wrote:Mr. Seimbeida repeatedly shows us examples of towns booming up out of nowhere because of the hope of a better future and the promise of security. My premise isn't really so far fetched. Especially if we have these heroes at the fore and a large portion of the remains of Tolkein as a starting point.

Thanks for your post.

Post SoT?
Then you run back into the issue of Coake.
If he suddenly decides give up a century of behavior to set up shop somewhere out west with all the refugees...
1) what is going to motivate him to mess with what seems to be working? (because I am still of the opinion that the CKs are working)
2) how does he convince all the CKs that its time to abandon the old codes and traditions and adopt totally new ones?
3) how does he deal with the issue of the various war criminals and dark mages mixed in the refugees?
4) where is he going to put this new country? We are rapidly running out of unclaimed room on the map so someone is going to have to give up their territory for this...who is going to do that peacefully?
I could go on but these are some good places to start,

eliakon wrote:I have read the books rather thoroughly. That is why I said what I did.
Setting aside the fact that there still isn't a canon description on what a soul is.
I would still point out that you don't "go to hell"
There is, quite literally, no canonical after life in Palladium with the unique exception of the Chinese.
Using Rune Magic or Soulmancy it is possible to capture the souls (maybe. Gelba did a pretty heavy retcon there in Armageddon Unlimited and souls may not actually be souls for example...) and use them a fuel for certain forms of magic.
What happens then is, canonically a total mystery.

And of course one could point out that the CS is still genocidal evil and that it is a false dilemma to pretend that you are required to pick only one of the two evils as the one that you want making the entire issue moot.

The existence of a canonical afterlife as shown in Rifts: China and of Nxla's Souk Harvesters being a thing (it even uses the phrase "immortal soul" on page 18 of WB12, and on page 22 it states that if a soulless xombie has been destroyed, the soul can still be freed and be "allowed to move on to the spirit world.") would lead one to conclude that the soul is a thing, however poorly defined it might be, and that there is an afterlife of some kind. The text from WB12 that I just noted certainly shows that China is not the only canonical afterlife in Palladium, because the freed soul moves on to the spirit world. That it is not further defined does not negate its existence.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. If willing to extend outside of purely Rifts, read the write-up of Utu in Dragons & Gods. There's lots of talk about souls in there, including the ability to let souls move on or resurrect, the Deevil Lords trying to steal souls, and his ability to stop souls from leaving the body (which is not a kindness). Take that for what you will. Farewell and safe journeys.

That's a great point, as well; I'd forgotten about Utu! Time to reread Dragons and Gods.

I've seen the term "nation-building" around here, which generally refers to an intervention by another country to try to build up another. Most of the second Iraq War, for example, was nation-building on the part of the U.S. and its allies. While a Cyber-knight might help some small communities in a way that's a little like this, they seem to be more about saving the day and then riding off.

This topic seems to be more about Cyber-Knights choosing or not choosing to build and essentially become a nation. Eliakon says this was never an option, but I would argue that it is a constant option given the vast amount of unclaimed territory. They essentially did this during the Tolkeen refugee crisis, but only as a temporary measure, setting up communities with some cloud magic. They could have seized that opportunity to guide those people to a common purpose and a better society, but instead, they focused on short-term relief with no guidance, direction, or vision for the refugees' future.

One person might see this as a lack of vision and naive idealism, others might call it selflessness and dedication to a principle of the strong protecting, but not directing, the weak. Both perspectives have merit, and the ambiguity of this aspect of the Cyber-Knights can make for some fascinating moral dilemmas and good stories.

Hotrod wrote:I've seen the term "nation-building" around here, which generally refers to an intervention by another country to try to build up another. Most of the second Iraq War, for example, was nation-building on the part of the U.S. and its allies. While a Cyber-knight might help some small communities in a way that's a little like this, they seem to be more about saving the day and then riding off.

This topic seems to be more about Cyber-Knights choosing or not choosing to build and essentially become a nation.

Right; nation building.
I think it's pretty clear in the context of this thread what they're talking about.

Technically, I guess it would be more "nation formation," but whatever.

dreicunan wrote:

eliakon wrote:I have read the books rather thoroughly. That is why I said what I did.
Setting aside the fact that there still isn't a canon description on what a soul is.
I would still point out that you don't "go to hell"
There is, quite literally, no canonical after life in Palladium with the unique exception of the Chinese.
Using Rune Magic or Soulmancy it is possible to capture the souls (maybe. Gelba did a pretty heavy retcon there in Armageddon Unlimited and souls may not actually be souls for example...) and use them a fuel for certain forms of magic.
What happens then is, canonically a total mystery.

And of course one could point out that the CS is still genocidal evil and that it is a false dilemma to pretend that you are required to pick only one of the two evils as the one that you want making the entire issue moot.

The existence of a canonical afterlife as shown in Rifts: China and of Nxla's Souk Harvesters being a thing (it even uses the phrase "immortal soul" on page 18 of WB12, and on page 22 it states that if a soulless xombie has been destroyed, the soul can still be freed and be "allowed to move on to the spirit world.") would lead one to conclude that the soul is a thing, however poorly defined it might be, and that there is an afterlife of some kind. The text from WB12 that I just noted certainly shows that China is not the only canonical afterlife in Palladium, because the freed soul moves on to the spirit world. That it is not further defined does not negate its existence.

That's the point.
China is the only after life so far
Valhalla is not an after life
The Spirit Lands of the Natives? Nope, no dead
Hades? Dyvall? Olympus? Anybody?
Nope.
There is some sort of nebulous place where souls go when they are not alive...
...but outside of the one, unique, exception of China it is not a place that is
-known
-can be known
-can be visited or interacted with in any way
-can be remembered

It is quite literally "where souls go to hang out, but hey, can resurrect people"

Now, sure, it is possible that a future book will again retcon things and change it so that some of these, if not all, of them become after lives and then we will get all the fun of watching game writers try and handle thorny issues like "how immortal are souls" and "what amount of experience in the afterlife do you remember if your resurrected"
THAT said, this is getting WAY off topic. I would suggest we start a new thread if further discussion about souls is desired.

Hotrod wrote:I've seen the term "nation-building" around here, which generally refers to an intervention by another country to try to build up another. Most of the second Iraq War, for example, was nation-building on the part of the U.S. and its allies. While a Cyber-knight might help some small communities in a way that's a little like this, they seem to be more about saving the day and then riding off.

This topic seems to be more about Cyber-Knights choosing or not choosing to build and essentially become a nation. Eliakon says this was never an option, but I would argue that it is a constant option given the vast amount of unclaimed territory.

I'm curious here.
Where are you finding this "vast amount of unclaimed territory"?
Because I don't see it in my books, so I'm sort of curious where you were looking.

Hotrod wrote:They essentially did this during the Tolkeen refugee crisis, but only as a temporary measure, setting up communities with some cloud magic. They could have seized that opportunity to guide those people to a common purpose and a better society, but instead, they focused on short-term relief with no guidance, direction, or vision for the refugees' future.

Seized would be the operative word there though.
They would have to take over the governance of the refugee's... by displacing their current leaders.
Oh yeah, and deal with all the other issues I raised... which I note that you conveniently ignored.
So sure... they could abandon 100+ years of their principles, throw aside their neutrality, give up their claim of independence... they could forfeit the ability for any of them to be wandering good guys, for the ability to seize, by force, a bunch of refugees that they will then settle in someone else's land (that I presume they will take by force?). I guess they will then have tons of professional leaders with lots of political experience and judicial experience to help set up their new government so they can immediately go to work on the needed war crimes trials and "de demonification" programs. Luckily though they have the tens of billions of credits handy so that they can finance this project so they won't have to worry about having to care what others think about them as they turn from noble heroes of legend to ruthless conquring warlords. Don't worry, they will be benevolent warlords who are just doing this for your own protection.

Hotrod wrote:One person might see this as a lack of vision and naive idealism, others might call it selflessness and dedication to a principle of the strong protecting, but not directing, the weak. Both perspectives have merit, and the ambiguity of this aspect of the Cyber-Knights can make for some fascinating moral dilemmas and good stories.

I see it as "They are not crusaders in the medieval sense of the word who are here to save the locals from themselves because they know better"
Good does not have to be smug nor does it have to be condescending.
Good guys can sometimes actually be good guys who want to help people help themselves.

Hotrod wrote:I've seen the term "nation-building" around here, which generally refers to an intervention by another country to try to build up another. Most of the second Iraq War, for example, was nation-building on the part of the U.S. and its allies. While a Cyber-knight might help some small communities in a way that's a little like this, they seem to be more about saving the day and then riding off.

This topic seems to be more about Cyber-Knights choosing or not choosing to build and essentially become a nation. Eliakon says this was never an option, but I would argue that it is a constant option given the vast amount of unclaimed territory. They essentially did this during the Tolkeen refugee crisis, but only as a temporary measure, setting up communities with some cloud magic. They could have seized that opportunity to guide those people to a common purpose and a better society, but instead, they focused on short-term relief with no guidance, direction, or vision for the refugees' future.

One person might see this as a lack of vision and naive idealism, others might call it selflessness and dedication to a principle of the strong protecting, but not directing, the weak. Both perspectives have merit, and the ambiguity of this aspect of the Cyber-Knights can make for some fascinating moral dilemmas and good stories.

Wow. You are much better then I am at this. Therefore, I yield the balance of my time to the honorable gentleman from the Orion Arm of the Milky Way.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Hotrod wrote:I've seen the term "nation-building" around here, which generally refers to an intervention by another country to try to build up another. Most of the second Iraq War, for example, was nation-building on the part of the U.S. and its allies. While a Cyber-knight might help some small communities in a way that's a little like this, they seem to be more about saving the day and then riding off.

This topic seems to be more about Cyber-Knights choosing or not choosing to build and essentially become a nation.

Right; nation building.
I think it's pretty clear in the context of this thread what they're talking about.

Technically, I guess it would be more "nation formation," but whatever.

Yea, I kinda used an inexact term. I have many ideas of how Lord Coake could have chosen a path that could have endangered the Knights reputation and gone against his principles. Helping an existing nation become stronger, like the Colorado Baronies, or to work with sympathetic memebers of Tolkein's Circle of Twelve would both fall under that term, I guess.

eliakon wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:

eliakon wrote: That was sort of my point.
The presented choice was a false one to begin with. There never was an option for the Cyber-Knights to set up as a major power that would of set the CS and allow the CK to become the "preeminent guardians of humanity". Most of the states that make up the current CS were already in existence before the CKs were even a thing, let alone before Lord Coake had the 'street cred' to be anything other than yet another D-Bee warlord.
With out moving the timeline for the CKs back a century or two or giving Coake authorial level prescience so that he would know which threats to stop, which battles had to be prevented, which warlords would cause problems a century later and which ones could be safely ignored...
Short of that? Nothing could have been done to change things.
We have the luxury of looking back and being able to see the entire history and know every single turning point, we now know why they were critical and how and why they will shape events that will happen decades later. We now know that certain individuals are important because they will rise to power based on events in their youth...
...but it is rather like asking why no one stopped the Nazis because it was obvious that it all could have been prevented by setting up a better peace after WW I. Or asking why no one prevented Mao from taking over China by not getting the Tsars of Russia to pay attention to the concerns of the peasantry and establishing a just constitutional monarchy which would stop international Communism from ever happening.
Because no one at the time knew that those things were going to happen and thus because they couldn't predict ripple on effects of their actions 10, 20, 100, 200 years down the road acted in ways that seemed like the best ones at the time.

(fixed quote for you for legibility. Now on to the actual issues.)

SereneTsunami wrote:Good points. At what point do you think Erin Tarn, Lord Coake, The Republicans, and Plato of Lazlo all saw that the CS had become too "Evilish'(That's for you Axelmania!) and too large to be managed? What are they waiting for?
It doesn't do much good to go back before 101PA, but the choices available to these individuals during the runup and into the SoT could have changed history for the better.

I'm not sure.
By that time honestly... Tolkeen was a lost cause unless the rest of the Continent was willing to jump in on their side and bring in extra-dimensional allies.
Well before 101 PA (the date in the RMB) the CS was already clearly evil, and clearly setting up for a war against Tolkeen.
The only way to stop said war would have been to present a deterrent big enough to threaten the CS.

SereneTsunami wrote:Mr. Seimbeida repeatedly shows us examples of towns booming up out of nowhere because of the hope of a better future and the promise of security. My premise isn't really so far fetched. Especially if we have these heroes at the fore and a large portion of the remains of Tolkein as a starting point.

Thanks for your post.

Post SoT?
Then you run back into the issue of Coake.
If he suddenly decides give up a century of behavior to set up shop somewhere out west with all the refugees...
1) what is going to motivate him to mess with what seems to be working? (because I am still of the opinion that the CKs are working)
2) how does he convince all the CKs that its time to abandon the old codes and traditions and adopt totally new ones?
3) how does he deal with the issue of the various war criminals and dark mages mixed in the refugees?
4) where is he going to put this new country? We are rapidly running out of unclaimed room on the map so someone is going to have to give up their territory for this...who is going to do that peacefully?
I could go on but these are some good places to start,

Thanks for posting, and thanks for helping with the Quote machine, I haven't mastered it yet.

The SoT tells us there was a significant amount of opposition to the path to war that King Creed had chosen. With Erin Tarn and Lord Coake doing the asking how hard would it of been to convince a group of Tolkeinites to form an "Undergound RR' to a new location? Impossible? That happens in RIFTS before breakfast.

Lord Coake's motivation is saving lives, supposedly his idea for the Knights.

He convinces the Knights and works with those who agree with him. Choosing to build up a community does not mean they cannot also continue their hobo's crusade.

The idea of war criminals in the refugees is a sticky one, but I'm sure Coake and Tarn could work it out, because the impossible happens in Rifts all the time.

The location isn't all that important IMO. With a little forethought and help from his friends it would be easy to find a hidden spot in Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Utah. You assert that the west is "full up", but that's not canon. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding that point.

There's lots of leylines and great climate around Olympia National Forest, how about that for starters? There is literally 10,000 hidden valleys and secluded rivers in NA to hide 150,000 people.

You are throwing up reasons why doing something more then Coake chose to do would be hard. Heroes do things that are hard in order to save lives. Coake didn't do those things. I'm supposing that he made the choice to do nothing more then he did for less savory reasons then "it's too hard".

In SoT 4 the text gives me the impression that Coake's choice not to help Tolkein was a selfless act born from a steadfast adherence to principles that were essential to the Cyber-Knight's identity. It portrays the Knights who broke with Coake as short-sighted and or foolish, even if good hearted. I offer the idea that it is the other way around, and that Coake was the foolhardy and short-sighted one.

That's not near as good as Hotrod, but it's the meat of my argument/theory/question.

eliakon wrote:

kaid wrote:the alternative is getting enslaved or worse by demons/devils and being dragged literally into hell than at least if the CS kill you they can't trap your soul for eternity.

Neither can Hades or Dyvall.
In fact the only group that has any ability what so ever over souls canonically is the Chinese who get them via subcontracting from their Jade Emperor who sends them the souls of sinners for punishment (or of course those who make the appropriate pacts)

I don't know about kaid's "eternity" but both Hades and Dyval contain abilities over souls canonically:

Hades - Pits of Hell (DB10) p 65 has Soul Catchers who can trap a soul for at least 10 years, and souls will die after 6-9 years, or immediately if "consumed" for a huge bonus. Body dies 1 year after. Armageddon Unlimited expanded this to some weapons (pg 57 Deevil Soul Slayers and pg 66 Demon Soul Eaters BOTH have a "Soul Drinker" ability similar to the Soul Catcher, though death for soulless bodies is 2D6 years after loss instead of 1 year after destruction) and Library of Bletherad had Tentac, a minor demon lord who had a Deathkiss-like ability to destroy souls of those it killed (actually worse than drinking/imprisoning)

Dyval - Hell Unleashed (DB10) p 212 had the Soul Pools where hours of wading could result in being subject to a Soul Drinking attack. This consumes the body but apparently it can be rebuilt by a Resurrection spell. 213 indicates soul-drinking weapons can also free you and that it is possible to retrieve souls from soul-drinking rune weapons (presumably with the weapon's consent). 214 mentions a Soul Chamber and 215 mentions souls trapped there can be burned for PPE (similar to what Soul Catcher demons do). I'm not sure how souls get there to begin with, my best guess is that Sahtalus has some demons with a Soul Drinker who come and suck up souls from the Pools and transfer them to the Chamber as-needed, unless there's a more direct connection like all the pools trickling into a big lake below the chamber or something.

eliakon wrote:there still isn't a canon description on what a soul is.

There is... or "are" more correctly, since there are several. The problem isn't so much a lack of description so much as there have been several tidpits we have to piece together and no cohesive overview to help give a consolidated idea.

If we're talking Megaversally, TTGD 58 "Soul in a Bottle" mentions:

the "soul" (psychic energy)"

and quantifies its loss as half the PPE / ISP along with some penalties. That's just one piece of the puzzle, of course. Ideally we could compile a list of all the tidbits and try and fit them together.

eliakon wrote:Gelba did a pretty heavy retcon there in Armageddon Unlimited and souls may not actually be souls for example...)

WB10 was August 2007, Armageddon was February 2011. The tweaking the Rune Weapons had relative to the Catchers was pretty minor.

dreicunan wrote:The existence of a canonical afterlife as shown in Rifts: China and of Nxla's Souk Harvesters being a thing (it even uses the phrase "immortal soul" on page 18 of WB12, and on page 22 it states that if a soulless xombie has been destroyed, the soul can still be freed and be "allowed to move on to the spirit world.") would lead one to conclude that the soul is a thing, however poorly defined it might be, and that there is an afterlife of some kind. The text from WB12 that I just noted certainly shows that China is not the only canonical afterlife in Palladium, because the freed soul moves on to the spirit world. That it is not further defined does not negate its existence.

We should note that "world" could actually refer to multiple dimensions, just as "The Demon Netherworld" (Nightlands pg 128) refers collectively to Hades, Dyval, and probably several others. I expect "the spirit world" includes not just the Demon Netherworld but also all the various pantheons/D+G dimensions.

D+G in particular has a deity who can stop the flow of souls, considered a major deterrent. Pg 123-127 describes Utu and "Stop the Flow of Souls" which is "very upsetting to the gods, who see such a thing as an unnatural break in the proper order of things". He is "the channel through which all souls must pass."

Pass to WHERE though? Well looking earlier "It is up to Utu to decide into which hands to deliver that soul." the "who" is pretty strongly implied to be the deities worshipped by the being. We're also told:

When the Deevil Lords and their realm first came to the Palladium World, one of the first things they did was attempt to steal
away souls that were in transit.

So that is also an explanation to how the Soul Chamber might get filled: theft from souls on their way to their gods.

The Tristine Chronicles quote Utu as saying "I have revived the recent dead, whose souls had not yet reached Anubis" indicating that this is where they go, assuming the Tristine Chronicles accurately quote Utu and he was being honest.

It may not be all gods who do this though, but certain ones designated to the task. Anubis in the Egyptians, for example, or Hades of the Greek. I think Odin handles that stuff personally, which is probably smart. Zeus and Set have to keep a close eye on their brother/nephew to avoid that privilege being abused.

My guess is the PPE that gods get from worshipers may also include the PPE of spirit worshippers they allow to live in their home dimensions.

eliakon wrote:China is the only after life so far
Valhalla is not an after life
The Spirit Lands of the Natives? Nope, no dead
Hades? Dyvall? Olympus? Anybody?
Nope.
There is some sort of nebulous place where souls go when they are not alive...
...but outside of the one, unique, exception of China it is not a place that is
-known
-can be known
-can be visited or interacted with in any way
-can be remembered

It is quite literally "where souls go to hang out, but hey, can resurrect people"

Now, sure, it is possible that a future book will again retcon things and change it so that some of these, if not all, of them become after lives and then we will get all the fun of watching game writers try and handle thorny issues like "how immortal are souls" and "what amount of experience in the afterlife do you remember if your resurrected"
THAT said, this is getting WAY off topic. I would suggest we start a new thread if further discussion about souls is desired.

As mentioned already, DB 10 + 11 clearly have a means of trapping souls within demons (Hades) or pools (Dyval) where they are used as fuel.

SereneTsunami wrote:The SoT tells us there was a significant amount of opposition to the path to war that King Creed had chosen. With Erin Tarn and Lord Coake doing the asking how hard would it of been to convince a group of Tolkeinites to form an "Undergound RR' to a new location? Impossible? That happens in RIFTS before breakfast.

Again. What location?
Where are we putting this new nation?
And just saying "the impossible happens so I don't have to worry about it." is, to me, saying that its not a discussion its just saying that any flaw doesn't exist because plot.
It is also pretty disingenuous because it basically presupposes that 'boom' I want to prove that my way is better... so I will simply give myself a working system and take away all the problems that the current system has and there, proof, that my system is superior to the status quo.

SereneTsunami wrote:Lord Coake's motivation is saving lives, supposedly his idea for the Knights.

again.
He is already saving lives
And more over you still haven't explained how getting rid of the current knights and putting them all in one city state will save more people than the current system.

SereneTsunami wrote:He convinces the Knights and works with those who agree with him. Choosing to build up a community does not mean they cannot also continue their hobo's crusade.

Ummm yes it does.
For several reasons
the first and simplest is that if your going to argue that the "hobo crusade" as you derisively call it is wrong/bad and that they need to abandon it to make a city then presumably... they will abandon it to make a city
the second is that there isn't an infinite pool of knights to just pull out of thin air. So putting 'the knights in the city to protect it' sort of means that they are not out protecting the rest of the people
the third is that once the Knights give up their neutrality they give up their neutrality. You can't both pick a side and be the impartial one. The knights reputation is based on being impartial...

SereneTsunami wrote:The idea of war criminals in the refugees is a sticky one, but I'm sure Coake and Tarn could work it out, because the impossible happens in Rifts all the time.

Again this is not an answer.
Simply saying that any problem with your argument will be solved because the impossible happens, but that any flaw on the other side must be explained, in detail and with book citations... well its a double standard.
I bring it up because it is quite literally one of the reasons that the Refugees are not being settled right now.
The reason that they are still refugees instead of being taken in by Lazlo or Arzno or the like? The issue of War Crimes and Necromancy, and Pacts with Demons, and Demon Summoning and Blood Magic and the rest...
So yes, just hand waving away the entire reason there is a problem right now to say that your solution is the one that works and that it proves your the good guys because no one else is providing a solution?
Yeah totally not legit.

SereneTsunami wrote:The location isn't all that important IMO. With a little forethought and help from his friends it would be easy to find a hidden spot in Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Utah. You assert that the west is "full up", but that's not canon. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding that point.

It is.
Those places are all claimed.
He is going to have to take territory that is claimed by an Indian Tribe, or a Psi-Stalker Tribe, or the Apocalypse Calvary... the west is basically already spoken for.
I know there is this European imperialist view that if there isn't a European style city on the land that its free for the taking...
...but that's not how it works.
So, again, where are they putting this kingdom? How big is it going to be? And how are they going to placate the neighbors who are pretty much all going to be Traditionalist Natives and militantly anti-technology and anti "white mans magic"

SereneTsunami wrote:There's lots of leylines and great climate around Olympia National Forest, how about that for starters? There is literally 10,000 hidden valleys and secluded rivers in NA to hide 150,000 people.

Okay. So lets
That's the territory of the Northern Plateau Tribes and the Cyber-Horsemen of Ixion as I read the maps. So who is going to tell these people that they need to give up their territory for this new city of people. Oh, and that city will be full of necromancers, and witches and people who are allied with demons and blood mages and murderers and stuff... but its all cool because the cyber-knights will keep an eye on them this time, promise.

Now, what resources are they using for their city?
What are they building it out of?
And just saying "Plot" doesn't cut it.
A city of 150,000 people is going to be pretty big. Its going to need a sewage treatment system, fresh water, power, garbage disposal (hundreds of tons per year) and so on...

SereneTsunami wrote:You are throwing up reasons why doing something more then Coake chose to do would be hard. Heroes do things that are hard in order to save lives. Coake didn't do those things. I'm supposing that he made the choice to do nothing more then he did for less savory reasons then "it's too hard".

I know.
Your thread title and constant derision of the knights makes it pretty clear that you dislike them, dislike Coake and choose to assign malice and cowardice to his actions so that you can then make any other action the heroic one.
I am just calling the spade a spade here.

SereneTsunami wrote:In SoT 4 the text gives me the impression that Coake's choice not to help Tolkein was a selfless act born from a steadfast adherence to principles that were essential to the Cyber-Knight's identity. It portrays the Knights who broke with Coake as short-sighted and or foolish, even if good hearted. I offer the idea that it is the other way around, and that Coake was the foolhardy and short-sighted one.

That's not near as good as Hotrod, but it's the meat of my argument/theory/question.

Again I get that you wish to make Coake out to be a villain that you are now redeaming. That's an interesting storyline to explore...
...but it requires discarding the entire written history of the Cyber-Knights, their leaders, their motivations and goals and substituting new ones.
I am wishing to point out that there is a world of difference between changing everything to turn Coake into a villain to redeem with a new noble gesture and the actual Coake.
I am wishing to point out that its disingenuous to try and equate the two Coakes as the same and that the motivations are the same
I am wishing to point out that simply stating that "everything is wrong and evil" is fine... but it needs to be explicitly stated that that is what is being done, not to try and pretend that the knights really are that way and then go off of that.

Basically I am saying "Coake isn't a "Hobo King"

Most of what you posted about the West and necromancers making up nearly all of the Tolkein refugees is not worth debating, but you assertion that COake is not a "Hobo King" is the point of my OP.

If you are willing, I would like to hear the case as to why he isn't exactly what I have described him as.

here is my position:

1. The Knights do tremendous good, but they could do more, and that is one man's choice.

2. Coake's motivations for that choice are to protect the integrity of the Knights' reputations.

3. This choice and it's motivations put the risk of damaging the Knights reputations(not a given) up against the opportunity to save more lives, and possibly stave off eventual extintion at the heands of the well-meaning and cuddly CS.

4. Coake is portrayed in the SoT as a steadfast and noble man, I am asserting that his choice was not noble or steadfast, but expedient and short-sighted.

PS Thanks again to Mr. Seimbeida for creating the characteers and world that are so fun to speculate on.

SereneTsunami wrote:what you posted about
the West and
necromancers making up nearly all of the Tolkein refugees
is not worth debating,

Looking at what you were responding to here...

eliakon wrote:The reason that they are still refugees instead of being taken in by Lazlo or Arzno or the like? The issue of War Crimes and Necromancy, and Pacts with Demons, and Demon Summoning and Blood Magic and the rest...

E did not say "nearly all", so you have projected a straw man argument, Tsunami.

You do not need a majority of refugees to be necromancers for this to be a problem. 99 refugees to 1 "I'm going to kill Lazlo farmers and make them my mummy armies" Diabolic Necromancer is still going to be a major problem. Especially since Juicer Uprising has clarified that Charismatic Aura hides their Horror Factor so they'd be very hard to ferret out.

Plus this isn't just the necromancer OCC with its HF you have to worry about. There's also the broad sense of "necromancer" being ANY spellcaster who has death magic. Pre-revised Planktal Nakton was a Ley Line Walker, after all.