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Hotrod wrote:Read the bolded part above. I'm not white washing anything. The CS is big and bad. They are a problem. I'm saying that there are bad guys aplenty in North America and presenting the CS as "the" villains of the setting doesn't seem to fit the setting as presented. Whether they seem better or worse than any of the other threats I mentioned depends greatly upon one's point of view. Thus, implying that they are some kind of monolithic epitome of all that is evil in the setting doesn't seem valid to me.

Killer Cyborg wrote:One of the things that I've always loved about the Rifts setting was that PCs are basically put into a situation where Nazis are on one side,
Demons are on the other,
and the PCs have to either pick a side, or go it alone caught between those two forces.

It's not exactly a no-win situation, but it's certainly hard to stay morally pure.

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:One of the things that I've always loved about the Rifts setting was that PCs are basically put into a situation where Nazis are on one side,
Demons are on the other,
and the PCs have to either pick a side, or go it alone caught between those two forces.

It's not exactly a no-win situation, but it's certainly hard to stay morally pure.

i mean, are they really? there are plenty of sides that are neither demons nor nazis. you can side against both of those groups and still have plenty of friends and allies. you're not necessarily going to stay morally pure either way, but you can certainly avoid those particular moral stains easily enough as a PC.

eliakon wrote:I will not sit by and let people try justify genocide by making false claims.

Second, even if they didn't (which they totally do and this is stated in canon so there is no way to argue it)
the definitions of the crime do not say "Human races" "human cultures" "Human religions"
They state "races" "cultures" "Religions" no qualifiers. They do not need a context that says "but if we find other species you can tots wipe them out no prob because they don't count.
So once again you are flat out wrong.

I get that some people want to desperately defend the Nazis CS even if I don't understand it.

eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote: Kudos on the quote research, though. As I said, it's a semantic point that doesn't make much of a difference morality-wise unless you consider non-human people to be less than human people (I don't... mostly. There are some seriously nasty non-human entities that I would consider to be of far less worth in Rifts: Vampires and intelligent supernatural predators/demons/dyvals, for example)

No it is NOT just a semantic point and it DOES matter morally.
It is important because the false claim that the "The CS does not engage in Genocide" is used as a defense of the CS by revisionists and apologists.
The fact of the matter is that the CS does engage in genocide. They may ALSO engage in what you want to call other things too...
It also allows for justifications of the CS actions to D-bees and other atrocities.
I will not sit by and let this go uncorrected.

EDIT: Also this is no longer on base classes, but the perennial defense of the CS and the perennial attempt to redefine Genocide. I suggest that as this is totally off topic that the entire sub-thread be moved to its own thread or simply dropped

Father Goose wrote:This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Hotrod wrote:

eliakon wrote:I will not sit by and let people try justify genocide by making false claims.

Relax. No-one here has said that genocide is ok. If you can point out anywhere in this or indeed any conversation in which I've said that genocide or xenocide or whatever you want to call the CS conducting mass killings of innocent people is in any way morally ok, I am happy to retract it.

Hotrod wrote:

eliakon wrote:Second, even if they didn't (which they totally do and this is stated in canon so there is no way to argue it)
the definitions of the crime do not say "Human races" "human cultures" "Human religions"
They state "races" "cultures" "Religions" no qualifiers. They do not need a context that says "but if we find other species you can tots wipe them out no prob because they don't count.
So once again you are flat out wrong.

I get that some people want to desperately defend the Nazis CS even if I don't understand it.

Real-life laws and language reflect our reality and history, neither of which include interacting with other species that we recognize as sentient people. I get that you don't think that matters. If a bunch of intelligent aliens revealed themselves tomorrow in real-life, I think there would be a lot of questions and debate over how to categorize them and what sorts of rights they might have.

Hotrod wrote:Also, enough with "some people" and other such weasel words. If you think I'm some kind of Nazi or Nazi defender, please say so. If you don't, then please stop conflating me with them. You and I have conversed civilly on these boards for years, and I don't think it's too much to ask that you not take me mentioning other threats to mean that I think Nazi-like policies of mass murder are in any way morally justifiable. I'm not in the habit of having to re-affirm that genocide, despotism, and banning literacy is wrong every time the topic of the CS's status as villain or valid playable faction comes up.

Hotrod wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote: Kudos on the quote research, though. As I said, it's a semantic point that doesn't make much of a difference morality-wise unless you consider non-human people to be less than human people (I don't... mostly. There are some seriously nasty non-human entities that I would consider to be of far less worth in Rifts: Vampires and intelligent supernatural predators/demons/dyvals, for example)

No it is NOT just a semantic point and it DOES matter morally.
It is important because the false claim that the "The CS does not engage in Genocide" is used as a defense of the CS by revisionists and apologists.
The fact of the matter is that the CS does engage in genocide. They may ALSO engage in what you want to call other things too...
It also allows for justifications of the CS actions to D-bees and other atrocities.
I will not sit by and let this go uncorrected.

EDIT: Also this is no longer on base classes, but the perennial defense of the CS and the perennial attempt to redefine Genocide. I suggest that as this is totally off topic that the entire sub-thread be moved to its own thread or simply dropped

Mass murder of people who aren't a threat is what I find morally objectionable. Genocide is objectionable to me not because of the strictures of its definitions but by the scale of innocent death that generally comes with it. A specific killer's political motivations matter less to me than the amount of helpless and innocent people who suffer and die at that killer's hands. Thus, to me, discussion over which term better fits CS policies is a semantic point that makes no moral difference to me.

Hotrod wrote:
As for my bringing up that my semantic point is similar to that of revisionists and apologists, what's with the "guilt by association" attack? I have neither revised canon nor said that the CS's Nazi-like approach is morally ok. Please stop implying otherwise.

Hotrod wrote:

Father Goose wrote:This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

Father Goose wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Father Goose wrote:This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

I have not, but I think that is because they are written to shine in a a stationary urban game and I have yet to play in such a game. I very much like the City Rat, but until I have the chance to play in an all urban campaign, I doubt I will see reason to play one. On the flip side, if I only ever played in all urban games, I would see no reason to play a Wilderness Scout. In fact, even the Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist lose some of their punch in a fixed location game. Each OCC has their area in which to shine.

HWalsh wrote:

Father Goose wrote:

Hotrod wrote:On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

I have not, but I think that is because they are written to shine in a a stationary urban game and I have yet to play in such a game. I very much like the City Rat, but until I have the chance to play in an all urban campaign, I doubt I will see reason to play one. On the flip side, if I only ever played in all urban games, I would see no reason to play a Wilderness Scout. In fact, even the Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist lose some of their punch in a fixed location game. Each OCC has their area in which to shine.

I have never seen a City Rat played. Like. Anywhere.

Hotrod wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

HWalsh wrote:Though him hating the CS makes sense. They're Nazis. Nazis are evil with little to no redeeming values save for those who leave it. They're the big bad of North America. Coake is uber good. They're bound to clash.

The CS is certainly big, and they're certainly bad. I'm not sure if a "the big bad" paradigm fits them all that well, though, considering that North America is also the site of:

1. Vampire kingdoms who treat people as cattle. Also, their intelligences.
2. Xiticix that are far more territorial and hostile to other sentient life forms than the Coalition.
3. Much of the Splugorth's favorite slave-catching grounds
4. The Federation of Magic (where skulls aren't just a symbol, especially in SoulHarvest)
5. The Mechanoid Invasion
6. Two simultaneous invasions from Hell.
7. ARCHIE 3.
8. The Pecos Empire, a loose collection of bandit gangs.
9. Permanent rifts where more crazy threats can and do emerge on an ongoing basis.

Can the lesser of ~10 evils be still "the big bad?" I've certainly played the CS that way both as a player and a GM, and Coalition soldiers and cops can make great villains. I'm just not sure that I'd put them in the same category as Sauron/Voldemort/Palpatine.

I am sorry but trying to claim that the Nazi Empire isn't a problem because there are some other problems is pretty much a joke. at best.

(snipping out good, but irrelevant points)

NO ONE tries to white wash the Vampires and claim they are good, or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
NO ONE tries to white wash the Xictic and claim they are good or misunderstood. They are recognized for what they are.
But a group of genocidal fanatics, who run around in black, wear skulls and were explicitly based on the Nazis... are just "misunderstood"
:help:

Read the bolded part above. I'm not white washing anything. The CS is big and bad. They are a problem. I'm saying that there are bad guys aplenty in North America and presenting the CS as "the" villains of the setting doesn't seem to fit the setting as presented. Whether they seem better or worse than any of the other threats I mentioned depends greatly upon one's point of view. Thus, implying that they are some kind of monolithic epitome of all that is evil in the setting doesn't seem valid to me.

kaid wrote:Also it should probably be noted for as big and bad as the CS are their expansionism has been really minimal. The main areas they are expansing in either expressly ASKED for the expansion or shoring up already held areas. Tolkeen was the first major push into another powers sphere of influence and it looks like that was mostly because the CS was running low on some resources.

Overall that I think is why most places were focusing on other problems and threats because even though the CS has the forces to roll over most of their close neighbors they seem somewhat reluctant to do so.

Shark_Force wrote:

kaid wrote:Also it should probably be noted for as big and bad as the CS are their expansionism has been really minimal. The main areas they are expansing in either expressly ASKED for the expansion or shoring up already held areas. Tolkeen was the first major push into another powers sphere of influence and it looks like that was mostly because the CS was running low on some resources.

Overall that I think is why most places were focusing on other problems and threats because even though the CS has the forces to roll over most of their close neighbors they seem somewhat reluctant to do so.

eh, not quite.

we know they send out patrols to kill anything they don't approve of on their border, and given that they've already laid claim to it (along with the rest of the world) practically speaking that amounts to conquering those territories, just without actually calling it a war.

furthermore, while they don't necessarily expand by overt military action elsewhere, it is highly probable that they have agents in place to subvert nearby groups that are close enough to their views to be integrated, and that they definitely exert political pressure to push communities into being close enough to their views for future integration.

the CS started off quite a bit smaller than its current size. they didn't get bigger by just meekly sitting in the corner and waiting for others to beg the CS to restrict their liberties and remove their sovereignty all by themselves.

Shark_Force wrote:

kaid wrote:Also it should probably be noted for as big and bad as the CS are their expansionism has been really minimal. The main areas they are expansing in either expressly ASKED for the expansion or shoring up already held areas. Tolkeen was the first major push into another powers sphere of influence and it looks like that was mostly because the CS was running low on some resources.

Overall that I think is why most places were focusing on other problems and threats because even though the CS has the forces to roll over most of their close neighbors they seem somewhat reluctant to do so.

eh, not quite.

we know they send out patrols to kill anything they don't approve of on their border, and given that they've already laid claim to it (along with the rest of the world) practically speaking that amounts to conquering those territories, just without actually calling it a war.

furthermore, while they don't necessarily expand by overt military action elsewhere, it is highly probable that they have agents in place to subvert nearby groups that are close enough to their views to be integrated, and that they definitely exert political pressure to push communities into being close enough to their views for future integration.

the CS started off quite a bit smaller than its current size. they didn't get bigger by just meekly sitting in the corner and waiting for others to beg the CS to restrict their liberties and remove their sovereignty all by themselves.

Hotrod wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Father Goose wrote:

Hotrod wrote:On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

I have not, but I think that is because they are written to shine in a a stationary urban game and I have yet to play in such a game. I very much like the City Rat, but until I have the chance to play in an all urban campaign, I doubt I will see reason to play one. On the flip side, if I only ever played in all urban games, I would see no reason to play a Wilderness Scout. In fact, even the Rogue Scholar and Rogue Scientist lose some of their punch in a fixed location game. Each OCC has their area in which to shine.

I have never seen a City Rat played. Like. Anywhere.

Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever seen one played either, and I'm not sure that I understand why.

Hotrod wrote:

Father Goose wrote:This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

About 8 years back, I wound up running a group once that was 3 city rats, 1 cyber human, and their cyber-doc. Wound up making up a whole boat load of stuff for Lazlo based off of then-current real world info from Toronto to do it. The one I remember was based on the University of Toronto - Robarts Library building. The building is supposed to look like a peacock, so I had it be one of the few remaining buildings after the Chaos. I want to do that again some day, it was fun!

torjones wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

Father Goose wrote:This discussion departed from the title topic a while ago...
We should get back on track or get a lock.
The rest of this discussion belongs in a new thread.

Concur.

On that note, has anyone seen City Rats played much? I haven't.

About 8 years back, I wound up running a group once that was 3 city rats, 1 cyber human, and their cyber-doc. Wound up making up a whole boat load of stuff for Lazlo based off of then-current real world info from Toronto to do it. The one I remember was based on the University of Toronto - Robarts Library building. The building is supposed to look like a peacock, so I had it be one of the few remaining buildings after the Chaos. I want to do that again some day, it was fun!

Shark_Force wrote:officially, the CS had an astoundingly terrible time of invading tolkeen (for the sake of argument, let's just ignore that the war was run by spectacularly incompetent morons on both sides, and also ignore the fact that the authors failed to do even the most basic precursory checks of whether or not the CS military came out of the war several times larger than it was before the war, and accept that the plot demanded that the CS eventually stomp the crap out of tolkeen but take a beating along the way and pretend that the books actually support that outcome). and they pretty much hands down *lost* the fight against free quebec (mostly because FQ managed to completely destroy all credibility the CS had regarding the war being even the tiniest bit just).

that doesn't point to them being extremely eager to pick more fights from my perspective.

especially not when their other tactics cost a lot less and generally get them what they want, without damaging their image. i mean, you can bet pretty much everyone *else* on the continent knows that tolkeen was not a legitimate threat to the CS, and have adjusted their views on what the CS is doing accordingly. military conquest is just so much more expensive.

in the meanwhile, yeah, technically northern gun is a free nation. or, you know, a "free" "nation" that is already on the path towards being forced to march to the CS's tune in a variety of ways, and already giving up some portions of their sovereignty.

kaid wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:officially, the CS had an astoundingly terrible time of invading tolkeen (for the sake of argument, let's just ignore that the war was run by spectacularly incompetent morons on both sides, and also ignore the fact that the authors failed to do even the most basic precursory checks of whether or not the CS military came out of the war several times larger than it was before the war, and accept that the plot demanded that the CS eventually stomp the crap out of tolkeen but take a beating along the way and pretend that the books actually support that outcome). and they pretty much hands down *lost* the fight against free quebec (mostly because FQ managed to completely destroy all credibility the CS had regarding the war being even the tiniest bit just).

that doesn't point to them being extremely eager to pick more fights from my perspective.

especially not when their other tactics cost a lot less and generally get them what they want, without damaging their image. i mean, you can bet pretty much everyone *else* on the continent knows that tolkeen was not a legitimate threat to the CS, and have adjusted their views on what the CS is doing accordingly. military conquest is just so much more expensive.

in the meanwhile, yeah, technically northern gun is a free nation. or, you know, a "free" "nation" that is already on the path towards being forced to march to the CS's tune in a variety of ways, and already giving up some portions of their sovereignty.

As bad as the C.S are most of their 20 year plan is consolidating the mississippi corridor and over to lonestar. A lot of the territory they claim currently is CS in name only with a few big enclaves and a whole lot of wilderness. Now that they lost free quebec a lot of their old expansion plans over to CS iron heart and connecting to free quebec seem like they may go far onto the back burner. Without the pressing reason to try to connect up to quebec directly for the forseeable future after the minion war once they finish up their hold on the mississippi area it makes a lot more sense for the CS to expand west instead of east. Lots of area of expansion available west of the mississippi with basically bandits and tiny towns/outposts until you get all the way out to arzno/colorado baronies.