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Posted: **Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm**

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Right... because the militarized nation, who can build nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks, and by and large have a cultural fear of magic and the supernatural, and want none of that in their mega fortress cities, would build defenses at their entrances and just allow multiple people though their screening at once.

If one is undetectable, they wouldn't perceive it as multiple people.

Which is the point of security proceedure... to detect people. That's like going "If one's hiding. You can't see them. DUH they're HIDING' That's why you LOOK for them.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Or if they DID actually have the beaded curtain. Wouldn't watch for someone holding them open so an invisible person could sneak in behind them.

I'm not talking about someone standing there and holding it open, I mean waiting by the beads for someone to come through who 100% belongs there and trying to enter a half-step behind them so that the beads hitting you might not be easily perceptible compared to the residual momentum in the beads left in the first legitimate entrant's wake.

And if you have such a precaution, you're going to watch for this exact thing, for this exact reason. You'll be trained to specificly watch for this sort of 'wake' behindpeople and if you see it, hault them and inspect the area.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:because they're so stupid they wouldn't have them reach the floor, to .... purposefully prevent some idiot from trying to crawl under them. I mean it's just the safety and security of their fortress city. Sure. Have them cut off at.. hip level? Knee? Let the baddies just limbo on in....

You misread. Notice I said MINIMAL disturbance, not NO disturbance. This implies the beads are low enough to be disturbed by the ground-roller. I never said anything about them being raised or there being a gap.

If you're rolling under the beaded curtain they're going to clatter and flick this way and that and you're going to get detected. That's the point. Why would you have such a thing and not have it reach the floor? It's not like they're out side to be swayed around by the breeze. As soon as the curtain moves at ALL you know someone's trying to breach security.

Axelmania wrote:
Instead: there would simply be reduced visible movement the lower down (and slower) you moved through them.

Which is still movement, which still triggers the lock down and the hallway filled with weaponry of choice. Laser barrage, rail gun, flick the switch and the floor is electrified, etc etc add infin. Which ever one they wanted.

Axelmania wrote:

You might also have impatient guards (if this is a busy entrance) not waiting for beads to come to a natural stop from the previous entrant, or minor fluctuations from air currents. Depends on how heavy these beads are. If they're super heavy then they should come to a rest faster and resist breezes.

Because... you're going to build this as a defense against people who can throw fireballs from their fingertips.. and you're going to cheap out on it, or run it with less observation than the guards at disney world?

If you're using it as a defense, you're going to send people through single file. There's going to be a pause between to prevent the curtain from just swinging like crazy when you send the next person through... again, to prevent this sort of sloppyness.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:The CS would have multiple redundancy but have MILLIONS of troops under arms. They would likely have multiple skelebots in the hallway, Dogboys, psi stalkers and normal troops, along with power armor troops at the points of egress.

Agree 100%. I think the Psi-Hounds would be focusing on using their noses instead of looking at a curtain, of course.

Believe it or not, you can smell and see ... AT THE SAME TIME! lol

Axelmania wrote:
In fact, it might work better to just have a motion-detector camera aimed at the beads which beeps any time a certain amount of movement measurably occurs.

Yes. And the Motion cameras with laser rifles. I.E. Skelebots.

Which were mentioned above in the multiple redundancy.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:I wasn't proposing the be all and end all of the defenses be the beaded curtain. Just that a simple beaded curtain would put a stop to the above mentioned infiltration tactic.

It would be a very useful countermeasure, but I do think there are tactics to reduce the movement to make it harder to notice, particularly as troops get tired and less observant of the forever-boring beads, with their attention divided on other things, like looking at the people lining up. That's why I think an alarm system which detects the beads might work better.

Well 1) With millions of troops under arms you'll have more than one set of eyes on the curtain. With that many troops under arms you rotate people in and out, to prevent that exact sort of thing. "Tired and bored watching a curtain" You move them around so their jobs vary through out their shift. and 2) Again.. Skelebots. They don't get tired, they don't pay less attention, they don't frak off, they don't go to the head. Multiple Redundancy. Skelebots might not be able to write a love poem but "notify the human troops if X Y or Z happens" is fully with in their ability and skill set. "If the beaded curtain moves" is really easy to watch for. and this alarm system has a laser rifle and vibroblades.

Axelmania wrote:

Perhaps a "bead tunnel" with a sealed door on both ends, so you know when to actually focus on the beads?

I actually mentioned that at some point. You could have a hallway with multiple curtains if needed. And yes it'd be sealed at both ends. The two doors never being opened at the same time.

Posted: **Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Right... because the militarized nation, who can build nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks, and by and large have a cultural fear of magic and the supernatural, and want none of that in their mega fortress cities, would build defenses at their entrances and just allow multiple people though their screening at once.

If one is undetectable, they wouldn't perceive it as multiple people.

Which is the point of security proceedure... to detect people. That's like going "If one's hiding. You can't see them. DUH they're HIDING' That's why you LOOK for them.

I'm not understanding what tangent you're going of on here, "just allow multiple people" makes it sound like they're intentionally allowing them through. If people are sneaking through, they're not being allowed.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:if you have such a precaution, you're going to watch for this exact thing, for this exact reason. You'll be trained to specificly watch for this sort of 'wake' behindpeople and if you see it, hault them and inspect the area.

True: and how hard it is to spot this will depend on the skill and size of the follow-sneaker, how visible a shadow-wake they create in the beads.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:If you're rolling under the beaded curtain they're going to clatter and flick this way and that and you're going to get detected. That's the point.

If you're rolling under there will be less clattering and less flicking. The less disturbance, the lower the chance of detection. Probably different target numbers for perception rolls.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Why would you have such a thing and not have it reach the floor?

I never said it didn't reach the floor, no idea why you're still insisting on that.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's not like they're out side to be swayed around by the breeze. As soon as the curtain moves at ALL you know someone's trying to breach security.

Breezes don't only exist outdoors, air currents exist indoors too, caused by people moving about, blowing on their coffee, ventilation shafts, fans for people who aren't wearing environmental PA with built-in AC, etc.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Instead: there would simply be reduced visible movement the lower down (and slower) you moved through them.

Which is still movement, which still triggers the lock down and the hallway filled with weaponry of choice. Laser barrage, rail gun, flick the switch and the floor is electrified, etc etc add infin. Which ever one they wanted.

If you have a skelebots with a zero-tolerance policy for micro-percepted movements, sure. In which case you'll also have a series of false positives from other sources.

One major problem with this is unless you have a way to halt bead movement after someone legit goes through (like magnet curtains) you're not talking about "some movement" vs "zero movement", you're actually talking about move v. move, as the follower wouldn't be creating movement in a void of movement, but instead changing the pattern of already existing movement.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:you're going to build this as a defense against people who can throw fireballs from their fingertips.. and you're going to cheap out on it, or run it with less observation than the guards at disney world?

Partitioning resources isn't necessarily cheaping out. You think the CS would only use MDC walls, for example? I'm sure they use SDC walls too, due to expense restrictions, as it allows them to spread their credits to broader use.

I don't know that you necessarily even need a human skelebot or guard watching the curtain, a wall-mounted video camera with a skelebot-like AI behind it might be a more efficient example.

Or: maybe you could have a position-based monitoring system like what Motion Capture Suits use?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:If you're using it as a defense, you're going to send people through single file. There's going to be a pause between to prevent the curtain from just swinging like crazy when you send the next person through... again, to prevent this sort of sloppyness.

Which will work perfectly fine in situations when there is a small amount of people who are not in a rush, but sloppiness might occur in emergencies when they feel a heightened need to get people through faster.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:you can smell and see ... AT THE SAME TIME! lol

True: but however amazing you are at doing them simultaneously, you can probably still do either at least slightly better if you're not splitting your attention.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
In fact, it might work better to just have a motion-detector camera aimed at the beads which beeps any time a certain amount of movement measurably occurs.

Yes. And the Motion cameras with laser rifles. I.E. Skelebots. Which were mentioned above in the multiple redundancy.

Yes, my point is more that just a camera could be cheaper than a skelebot. Of course, if you're going to have the skelebot there already to engage an intruder, yeah just rely on it.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) With millions of troops under arms you'll have more than one set of eyes on the curtain. With that many troops under arms you rotate people in and out, to prevent that exact sort of thing. "Tired and bored watching a curtain" You move them around so their jobs vary through out their shift.
2) Again.. Skelebots. They don't get tired, they don't pay less attention, they don't frak off, they don't go to the head. Multiple Redundancy. Skelebots might not be able to write a love poem but "notify the human troops if X Y or Z happens" is fully with in their ability and skill set. "If the beaded curtain moves" is really easy to watch for. and this alarm system has a laser rifle and vibroblades.

So you're figuring even though a skelebot could do the job better they'll insist on having a human backup in case the skelebot is compromised?

It would be interesting subterfuge, tweaking a skelebot so that it has a different motion detector threshold, like you might also psychically condition a grunt to think he hallucinates curtains moving when they actually aren't, so that he won't report the actual thing happening.

eliakon wrote:a CS officer bringing the contraband through

About this: are we talking magic contraband? Unless it's certain TW items, magic items are going to have a stench even when not in use, and I don't know if you can even cast stuff like Mystic Invisibility on items instead of people to stop that.

Posted: **Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:38 pm**

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Right... because the militarized nation, who can build nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks, and by and large have a cultural fear of magic and the supernatural, and want none of that in their mega fortress cities, would build defenses at their entrances and just allow multiple people though their screening at once.

If one is undetectable, they wouldn't perceive it as multiple people.

Which is the point of security proceedure... to detect people. That's like going "If one's hiding. You can't see them. DUH they're HIDING' That's why you LOOK for them.

I'm not understanding what tangent you're going of on here, "just allow multiple people" makes it sound like they're intentionally allowing them through. If people are sneaking through, they're not being allowed.

Because the entire point of it would be to disallow people sneaking through, you're going to watch for the exact things that would indicate someone sneaking through. lol

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:if you have such a precaution, you're going to watch for this exact thing, for this exact reason. You'll be trained to specificly watch for this sort of 'wake' behindpeople and if you see it, hault them and inspect the area.

True: and how hard it is to spot this will depend on the skill and size of the follow-sneaker, how visible a shadow-wake they create in the beads.

Yes.. and if a person is trying to sneak through you'll see the beaded curtain bounce off them. because people don't actually have two or three foot thick invisible sections behind them. You could velcro yourself to someone's back and it's still going to be detectable. People have mass and take up space

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:If you're rolling under the beaded curtain they're going to clatter and flick this way and that and you're going to get detected. That's the point.

If you're rolling under there will be less clattering and less flicking. The less disturbance, the lower the chance of detection. Probably different target numbers for perception rolls.

The entire curtain moves when you hit any part of it. if it extends to the floor you have to either displace it to the point your shoulders pass through or length wise your entire body. Are you seriously trying to sell the concept of "The curtain is just flicking and bouncing around at the bottom.... so noone standing there purposefully watching to see if it moves... will notice a foot or two at the bottom suddely flicking and moving around, big enough to allow egress of a person?

Now I know some people play the CS like they're staring into the sun all day long drooling over themselves, but how stupid would one have to be, who's job is to "Watch the curtain for movment" and not notice the curtain moving, yes.. even down close to the ground??

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Why would you have such a thing and not have it reach the floor?

I never said it didn't reach the floor, no idea why you're still insisting on that.

Because other wise it's going to be glaringly obvious to anyone that's not blind AND deaf that a body is displacing the beaded curtain to gain egress.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's not like they're out side to be swayed around by the breeze. As soon as the curtain moves at ALL you know someone's trying to breach security.

Breezes don't only exist outdoors, air currents exist indoors too, caused by people moving about, blowing on their coffee, ventilation shafts, fans for people who aren't wearing environmental PA with built-in AC, etc.

So it's your contention that a dog boy, on duty, blowing on his hot chocolate displaces enough air to part a beaded curtain in a sealed hallway, specificly designed to weed out mystical invisable invaders, and due to such ambient aircurrents that someone could just wait untill the AC kicks on and commando roll through?

Again... they can build nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks. And can lab grow altered canines with full sapience, bipedal stance, human thought, awareness, hands, and speech, not to mention petranatural senses, to work as a companion spieces with them and help to keep them safe from supernatural predators.

But they can't design a hallway with a beaded curtain that doesn't lash around like a car wash when someone blows on their coffee......

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Instead: there would simply be reduced visible movement the lower down (and slower) you moved through them.

Which is still movement, which still triggers the lock down and the hallway filled with weaponry of choice. Laser barrage, rail gun, flick the switch and the floor is electrified, etc etc add infin. Which ever one they wanted.

If you have a skelebots with a zero-tolerance policy for micro-percepted movements, sure. In which case you'll also have a series of false positives from other sources.

It's not 'micro percepted' movments if you're trying to get a body through it. lol

Axelmania wrote:
One major problem with this is unless you have a way to halt bead movement after someone legit goes through (like magnet curtains) you're not talking about "some movement" vs "zero movement", you're actually talking about move v. move, as the follower wouldn't be creating movement in a void of movement, but instead changing the pattern of already existing movement.

Which is, as you, yourself state, simply avoided by having the curtains contain magnets at the bottom. But you would let the beads return to full rest before allowing the next person through security.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:you're going to build this as a defense against people who can throw fireballs from their fingertips.. and you're going to cheap out on it, or run it with less observation than the guards at disney world?

Partitioning resources isn't necessarily cheaping out. You think the CS would only use MDC walls, for example? I'm sure they use SDC walls too, due to expense restrictions, as it allows them to spread their credits to broader use.

And skimping on security to keep out fireball throwing threats to humanity is where you think they're making the cuts? I don't see any indication of that sort of thing from the books. Waste money to maintain a Skull Motif because it's a rpg? Sure. "Oh we'll just halfass our security getting into our fortress cities to save a buck" no. After all one of the main complaints about the CS is that cost is never counted. They have millions and millions of troops under arms, with a relatively small population. Their resource allocation was all but ignored untill very recently and even then is pretty much handwaved.

Axelmania wrote:
I don't know that you necessarily even need a human skelebot or guard watching the curtain, a wall-mounted video camera with a skelebot-like AI behind it might be a more efficient example.

The CS have Skelebots by the millions and they can attack the invader. A videocamera by itself cannot. this is a security check point. Not a Clairs in the mall.

Axelmania wrote:
Or: maybe you could have a position-based monitoring system like what Motion Capture Suits use?

or.... Flesh and blood guards... sapient bipedal, mystically aware guard dog people, and military grade androids that never sleep or take bathroom breaks.. ALL there.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:If you're using it as a defense, you're going to send people through single file. There's going to be a pause between to prevent the curtain from just swinging like crazy when you send the next person through... again, to prevent this sort of sloppyness.

Which will work perfectly fine in situations when there is a small amount of people who are not in a rush, but sloppiness might occur in emergencies when they feel a heightened need to get people through faster.

In an emergency the CS is slamming the doors shut. You don't allow people through secure checkpoints in a rush due to an emergency, or the only thing needed to sneak in is... a manufactured emergency.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:you can smell and see ... AT THE SAME TIME! lol

True: but however amazing you are at doing them simultaneously, you can probably still do either at least slightly better if you're not splitting your attention.

I can't tell if you're serious or trolling.... People use multiple sets of senses all the time, just fine. Trained guards, even more so. Predatory animals.. more so still.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
In fact, it might work better to just have a motion-detector camera aimed at the beads which beeps any time a certain amount of movement measurably occurs.

Yes. And the Motion cameras with laser rifles. I.E. Skelebots. Which were mentioned above in the multiple redundancy.

Yes, my point is more that just a camera could be cheaper than a skelebot. Of course, if you're going to have the skelebot there already to engage an intruder, yeah just rely on it.

They have millions of them and for the CS the Skelebots are written to be a cheap expenditure. (( of course the same books say that a robot that costs like a million credits is a cheap labor alturnative for farmers and such but hey. ))

They have millions of Skelebots. And very limited number of egress into and out of their fortress cities. You can bet every point of entry and exit will have dozens of Skelebots standing around scanning, keeping their unblinking eyes on the area for anything that flesh and blood eyes might miss. To point it out to said flesh and blood eyes or move to intercept on their own, which would draw flesh and blood attention as well. As stated, they never need sleep and don't blink or fall for the guy with the killer abbs or the girl with the wonderful smile.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) With millions of troops under arms you'll have more than one set of eyes on the curtain. With that many troops under arms you rotate people in and out, to prevent that exact sort of thing. "Tired and bored watching a curtain" You move them around so their jobs vary through out their shift.
2) Again.. Skelebots. They don't get tired, they don't pay less attention, they don't frak off, they don't go to the head. Multiple Redundancy. Skelebots might not be able to write a love poem but "notify the human troops if X Y or Z happens" is fully with in their ability and skill set. "If the beaded curtain moves" is really easy to watch for. and this alarm system has a laser rifle and vibroblades.

So you're figuring even though a skelebot could do the job better they'll insist on having a human backup in case the skelebot is compromised?

100% they will have human AND dog boy present. Not 'in case the skelebot is compromised, but for multiple redundancy. Your humans will spot most things trying to sneak through. Your dog boys will catch most magical things, EXCEPT those using three or four spells stacked as mentioned high above, and the Skelebots back up both of those, incase something slips by. All three cover each other, and you have multiple sets along the avenue of egress so that even if something slips by the first group, they have to sneak past a second, third, fourth, fifth etc. To get all the way through. layered defense.

Axelmania wrote:
It would be interesting subterfuge, tweaking a skelebot so that it has a different motion detector threshold, like you might also psychically condition a grunt to think he hallucinates curtains moving when they actually aren't, so that he won't report the actual thing happening.

If you can tweek a skelebot in such a fashion while it and how ever many others are standing guard along with human troops and Dog boys..... all with out being noticed by someone that you're doing it..... would you really be wasting your time trying such shenannigans, or would you just pilot the SDF1 into orbit and fire on Chitown?

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:17 am**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Right... because the militarized nation, who can build nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks, and by and large have a cultural fear of magic and the supernatural, and want none of that in their mega fortress cities, would build defenses at their entrances and just allow multiple people though their screening at once.

If one is undetectable, they wouldn't perceive it as multiple people.

Which is the point of security proceedure... to detect people. That's like going "If one's hiding. You can't see them. DUH they're HIDING' That's why you LOOK for them.

I'm not understanding what tangent you're going of on here, "just allow multiple people" makes it sound like they're intentionally allowing them through. If people are sneaking through, they're not being allowed.

Because the entire point of it would be to disallow people sneaking through, you're going to watch for the exact things that would indicate someone sneaking through. lol

Correct: but nobody's perception is perfect, and if perception fails, they aren't "allowing" anyone.

If you're making some metaphor for this being easy, I never said it'd be easy.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:if a person is trying to sneak through you'll see the beaded curtain bounce off them. because people don't actually have two or three foot thick invisible sections behind them. You could velcro yourself to someone's back and it's still going to be detectable. People have mass and take up space

Yes, but that mass and space are variable.

Height is also something I think would be important here, a gnome could "ride in the bead wake" of a tall human easier than a human of the same height.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:The entire curtain moves when you hit any part of it. if it extends to the floor you have to either displace it to the point your shoulders pass through or length wise your entire body. Are you seriously trying to sell the concept of "The curtain is just flicking and bouncing around at the bottom.... so noone standing there purposefully watching to see if it moves... will notice a foot or two at the bottom suddely flicking and moving around, big enough to allow egress of a person?

Your use of "suddenly" shows you are misremembering what I said: "try to roll/wriggle very slowly"

If you are shifting the bead-bottom slowly it would be a much-minimized disturbance that would not convey itself to the top as apparently as a quick impact on the beads would.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Now I know some people play the CS like they're staring into the sun all day long drooling over themselves, but how stupid would one have to be, who's job is to "Watch the curtain for movment" and not notice the curtain moving, yes.. even down close to the ground?

Guys who get bored and start talking to co-workers, who have multiple simultaneous duties, etc. It's hard to believe they'd actually have a guy dedicated to this, it would make more sense to have a motion-detector "beep" go off any time the curtain rustles.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Because other wise it's going to be glaringly obvious to anyone that's not blind AND deaf that a body is displacing the beaded curtain to gain egress.

How obvious it is depends on the size of the body and the speed it carefully rolls.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So it's your contention that a dog boy, on duty, blowing on his hot chocolate displaces enough air to part a beaded curtain in a sealed hallway, specificly designed to weed out mystical invisable invaders, and due to such ambient aircurrents that someone could just wait untill the AC kicks on and commando roll through?

No, hot chocolate might be poisonous to dog boys, chocolate is for human grunts.

Dog-boys create indoor air currents by wolf-whistling at Battle Cats.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:But they can't design a hallway with a beaded curtain that doesn't lash around like a car wash when someone blows on their coffee......

Sure they can, I'm just saying they'd have to use heavy beads to avoid that (more inertia) and preferably metal ones with a floor-magnet that pulls the beads back into place faster after displacement, so it takes less time for the residual momentum to stop swinging them.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's not 'micro percepted' movments if you're trying to get a body through it. lol

The contrast would be greater with heavier beads, and how micro a body moves depend on how micro the body is. A 6-inch mage wouldn't displace them that much.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Which is, as you, yourself state, simply avoided by having the curtains contain magnets at the bottom. But you would let the beads return to full rest before allowing the next person through security.

The magnets would still take a small amount of time doing this, so human walkers would leave a wake for short people to follow through.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:skimping on security to keep out fireball throwing threats to humanity is where you think they're making the cuts?

Maybe: because realistically, how often are mages going to pointlessly risk themselves on suicide missions like this when they can just sent an intangible tectonic entity right through the bead-wall to possess your de-activated skelebots?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:In an emergency the CS is slamming the doors shut. You don't allow people through secure checkpoints in a rush due to an emergency, or the only thing needed to sneak in is... a manufactured emergency.

Depends on how important those people are, I think.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I can't tell if you're serious or trolling.... People use multiple sets of senses all the time, just fine. Trained guards, even more so. Predatory animals.. more so still.

I'm serious: yes you can use both at the same time, and do so very well, but focusing on one thing will allow more of your attention to be used. That might be why for example, a running wolf might pause to sniff the air or examine something in the distance. The cessation of ambulation in the very least I think helps focus senses. I personally sometimes close my eyes to focus on what I'm hearing, and I think it helps.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
It would be interesting subterfuge, tweaking a skelebot so that it has a different motion detector threshold, like you might also psychically condition a grunt to think he hallucinates curtains moving when they actually aren't, so that he won't report the actual thing happening.

If you can tweek a skelebot in such a fashion while it and how ever many others are standing guard along with human troops and Dog boys..... all with out being noticed by someone that you're doing it..... would you really be wasting your time trying such shenannigans, or would you just pilot the SDF1 into orbit and fire on Chitown?

I imagine you would tweak the skelebot by intercepting it on transit to its stated outpost.

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:58 pm**

Axelmania wrote:

I'm not understanding what tangent you're going of on here, "just allow multiple people" makes it sound like they're intentionally allowing them through. If people are sneaking through, they're not being allowed.

Because the entire point of it would be to disallow people sneaking through, you're going to watch for the exact things that would indicate someone sneaking through. lol
[/quote]
Correct: but nobody's perception is perfect, and if perception fails, they aren't "allowing" anyone. [/quote]

Perception wouldn't need to be perfect if what you're trying to perceive is glaringly obvious. You must not have a mental image of what we're talking about here. All your 'Oh you could sneak under it by moving slow" and what not. The beads would still move and cause a void the size of a human body. you'd have to be literally retarded not to notice that and that's pushing it. You'd have to have a severe mental retardation to some how miss it and at that point we're talking "Can't dress yourself' sort of mental deficency. Not the person you have standing on guard duty.

Axelmania wrote:

If you're making some metaphor for this being easy, I never said it'd be easy.

This falls under the common sense category. A human isn't fitting through a gap of a cm or two.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:if a person is trying to sneak through you'll see the beaded curtain bounce off them. because people don't actually have two or three foot thick invisible sections behind them. You could velcro yourself to someone's back and it's still going to be detectable. People have mass and take up space

Yes, but that mass and space are variable.

Height is also something I think would be important here, a gnome could "ride in the bead wake" of a tall human easier than a human of the same height.

If you're an ant you could pull it off, but you're not playing an ant, so we can just table such stupidity.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:The entire curtain moves when you hit any part of it. if it extends to the floor you have to either displace it to the point your shoulders pass through or length wise your entire body. Are you seriously trying to sell the concept of "The curtain is just flicking and bouncing around at the bottom.... so noone standing there purposefully watching to see if it moves... will notice a foot or two at the bottom suddely flicking and moving around, big enough to allow egress of a person?

Your use of "suddenly" shows you are misremembering what I said: "try to roll/wriggle very slowly"

It doesn't matter how slowly you move. Your body displaces the beads. They move to allow the body through them. unless your body is a cm or less thick, you're displacing the beads. Moving slower will just make them part .... slowly. Where in the guard on duty smirks elbows his friend, Targets the middle of the gap and vaporizes your head. Because the beads aren't just going to part to allow an object through them on their own. So if/when they do part you know SOMETHING is coming through. If you can't see it, you know it's either 1) Magic. SHOOT IT or 2) High tech being used to try and infiltrate the city. SHOOT IT.

Axelmania wrote: If you are shifting the bead-bottom slowly it would be a much-minimized disturbance that would not convey itself to the top as apparently as a quick impact on the beads would.

Yes, but you can watch the entire curtain at once. What kind of metal rejects do you perceive on guard duty only watching the top few inches of the thing???

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Now I know some people play the CS like they're staring into the sun all day long drooling over themselves, but how stupid would one have to be, who's job is to "Watch the curtain for movment" and not notice the curtain moving, yes.. even down close to the ground?

Guys who get bored and start talking to co-workers, who have multiple simultaneous duties, etc. It's hard to believe they'd actually have a guy dedicated to this, it would make more sense to have a motion-detector "beep" go off any time the curtain rustles.

We've already been over this. They'd have all the above. Multiple guards, multiple dog boys and multiple skelebots as well as the standard security proceedures. The CS Has millions of all of the above. You're not going to leave the safety of your city to motion detector, when you're literally dealing with magic. With millions of troops under arms you're going to post a goodly number at every means of egress into your fortress city.

Yes, you have meat eyes watching the security just in case magic or psionics can block cyber ones, and you have Cyber eyes (skelebots, cameras, motion detectors etc) just in case the meat eyes are fooled. And yes you have your dog boys and psi stalkers there to detect magic and what not too.

"oh I think a camera could do it better" When we're literally discussing a spell that would make a camera fail. lol You think over the 100 years the CS has been a thing, they never heard about that spell? One of the vanguard din't give them a heads up? Or a mage caught INSIDE the city didn't give up how he got past the cameras under.... 'enhanced questioning'???

Again this only works if your CS are LITERALLY retarded.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Because other wise it's going to be glaringly obvious to anyone that's not blind AND deaf that a body is displacing the beaded curtain to gain egress.

How obvious it is depends on the size of the body and the speed it carefully rolls.

It doesn't matter if you roll at the rate of a cm every hour. The curtain is still going to bow out and move 'around' you. people notice it when it's moved out of standard placement. Even if it moves slowly. You're targeted and eliminated for being stupid.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So it's your contention that a dog boy, on duty, blowing on his hot chocolate displaces enough air to part a beaded curtain in a sealed hallway, specificly designed to weed out mystical invisable invaders, and due to such ambient aircurrents that someone could just wait untill the AC kicks on and commando roll through?

No, hot chocolate might be poisonous to dog boys, chocolate is for human grunts.

It's actually a well spread myth. Chocolate is 'poisonous' to dogs, if they eat their own body weight in high coca dark chocolate. The myth was mainly spread by parents that didn't want their kids sharing their (Realitivly) expensive treats with their pets, and some vets wink wink nudge nudge going along with it. Your dog is fine.

If your 4 pound yorkiepoo ate 2 POUNDS of dark chocolate it might get sick, but if it ate two pounds of anything it's likely going to get sick.

Axelmania wrote:

Dog-boys create indoor air currents by wolf-whistling at Battle Cats.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:But they can't design a hallway with a beaded curtain that doesn't lash around like a car wash when someone blows on their coffee......

Sure they can, I'm just saying they'd have to use heavy beads to avoid that (more inertia) and preferably metal ones with a floor-magnet that pulls the beads back into place faster after displacement, so it takes less time for the residual momentum to stop swinging them.

Probably MDC ones too so you don't have to worry about some jerk ripping them down and replacing them all the time. I wasn't envisioning 99 cent ones from Big lots.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's not 'micro percepted' movments if you're trying to get a body through it. lol

The contrast would be greater with heavier beads, and how micro a body moves depend on how micro the body is. A 6-inch mage wouldn't displace them that much.

So now you're playing 6 inch player characters. Well if we're going to add even MORE to the what is it? Three or four spells we've stacked up, why not super powers too, intangibility would get you past the curtain fine. added to allllllll the other absurd stuff you might just make it.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Which is, as you, yourself state, simply avoided by having the curtains contain magnets at the bottom. But you would let the beads return to full rest before allowing the next person through security.

The magnets would still take a small amount of time doing this, so human walkers would leave a wake for short people to follow through.

Which is why you enforce a pause. Have you ever been to an airport Axel? They don't just let 50 people streek through the metal detectors. "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

One person goes through... pause.. the next person goes through.. pause....

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:skimping on security to keep out fireball throwing threats to humanity is where you think they're making the cuts?

Maybe: because realistically, how often are mages going to pointlessly risk themselves on suicide missions like this when they can just sent an intangible tectonic entity right through the bead-wall to possess your de-activated skelebots?

You need to reread the 50 or so source material books. If anything, the CS is not skimping on security.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:In an emergency the CS is slamming the doors shut. You don't allow people through secure checkpoints in a rush due to an emergency, or the only thing needed to sneak in is... a manufactured emergency.

Depends on how important those people are, I think.

No it wouldn't. Very important people aren't going through the same security check that the plebes are. And in the CS, unless you're a Prosek, you're GOING through security. Because even generals and what not can be replaced or magic'd etc. And the Prosek's are surrounded by a security net that would prevent their replacement etc. (Or detect it almost instantly if it happened)

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I can't tell if you're serious or trolling.... People use multiple sets of senses all the time, just fine. Trained guards, even more so. Predatory animals.. more so still.

I'm serious:

Doesn't seem like it.

Axelmania wrote: yes you can use both at the same time, and do so very well, but focusing on one thing will allow more of your attention to be used. That might be why for example, a running wolf might pause to sniff the air or examine something in the distance. The cessation of ambulation in the very least I think helps focus senses. I personally sometimes close my eyes to focus on what I'm hearing, and I think it helps.

When you're a guard you use as many senses as you can at the same time to take in more information and process it. Your eyes to watch for things, ears to listen, nose to smell (More than one sneak has been betrayed by odor, and not just by dogs.) you even 'feel'. Displaced aircurrents or vibrations in floors have given sneaks away. Now it's doubt ful you'll taste someone, but the others you use.

guards aren't wearing ear plugs to cut out the sound so they can 'Watch harder' and some aren't sitting around with black out goggles on so they listen harder.

This is past silly and into stupid.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
It would be interesting subterfuge, tweaking a skelebot so that it has a different motion detector threshold, like you might also psychically condition a grunt to think he hallucinates curtains moving when they actually aren't, so that he won't report the actual thing happening.

If you can tweek a skelebot in such a fashion while it and how ever many others are standing guard along with human troops and Dog boys..... all with out being noticed by someone that you're doing it..... would you really be wasting your time trying such shenannigans, or would you just pilot the SDF1 into orbit and fire on Chitown?

I imagine you would tweak the skelebot by intercepting it on transit to its stated outpost.

Then you'd already be inside the mega city and have access to ultra secure military housing units for military grade robots that each and every one would kill you if they caught you tampering with one, if you could get away with that, you wouldn't need to do that....

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:00 pm**

Just for the record. I'm not proposing that the CS has grovy 70s beaded curtains at all their security checkpoints.

I was mearly pointing out that such a simple item could prevent the usage of the combo of spells upthread from resulting in an 'unbeatable infiltration mage'.

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:55 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Just for the record. I'm not proposing that the CS has grovy 70s beaded curtains at all their security checkpoints.

I was mearly pointing out that such a simple item could prevent the usage of the combo of spells upthread from resulting in an 'unbeatable infiltration mage'.

Too late. From now as far as I am concerned, all CS entry points have extremely groovy beaded curtains, and "Incense and Peppermints" by Strawberry Alarm Clock is playing as people move through them.

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:25 pm**

dreicunan wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Just for the record. I'm not proposing that the CS has grovy 70s beaded curtains at all their security checkpoints.

I was mearly pointing out that such a simple item could prevent the usage of the combo of spells upthread from resulting in an 'unbeatable infiltration mage'.

Too late. From now as far as I am concerned, all CS entry points have extremely groovy beaded curtains, and "Incense and Peppermints" by Strawberry Alarm Clock is playing as people move through them.

Sufficient incense smoke could also serve to alert guards (in fully environmental armor, naturally) due to unnatural movement in the smoke.

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:24 pm**

All those posts PJ and you still missed the one thing that needed a response. The dog boy's breath from when he blew on his hot coffee was strong enough to move curtains. Clearly that's a supernatural creature in some sort of metamorphic disguise and the other guards there are failing their primary duty because they're all too busy looking at the curtains. :-P

Posted: **Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:38 pm**

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Perception wouldn't need to be perfect if what you're trying to perceive is glaringly obvious. You must not have a mental image of what we're talking about here. All your 'Oh you could sneak under it by moving slow" and what not. The beads would still move and cause a void the size of a human body. you'd have to be literally retarded not to notice that and that's pushing it.

That depends on where your attention is focused, how much sleep you got, what's on your mind, etc. I've sometimes been so disoriented I don't even notice a door is open/closed when I'm right next to it and assumed the latter. It's an eventual risk with any human guard.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You'd have to have a severe mental retardation to some how miss it and at that point we're talking "Can't dress yourself' sort of mental deficency. Not the person you have standing on guard duty.

Mental deficiency/retardation can be a temporary state that even very competent humans can sink to when under extreme stress, and I imagine it's stressful being a CS soldier. I think much of the reliance on competence with this approach would be on the fatigue-immune Skelebot, making them the point of failure enemies would target.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:If you're an ant you could pull it off, but you're not playing an ant, so we can just table such stupidity.

If a 6 foot guy is say, 2 feet broad, then a shrunk to 6 inches guy would be 2 inches broad. A slow-motion 1 inch radius cylinder rolling under this will ALWAYS be detected?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It doesn't matter how slowly you move. Your body displaces the beads. They move to allow the body through them. unless your body is a cm or less thick, you're displacing the beads. Moving slower will just make them part .... slowly. Where in the guard on duty smirks elbows his friend, Targets the middle of the gap and vaporizes your head.

I think the human eye is attracted to faster movement and uber-slow movement might not register.

If you're rolling the "middle" of the gap would by your abdomen not your head.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Because the beads aren't just going to part to allow an object through them on their own. So if/when they do part you know SOMETHING is coming through.

Only if your brain can register they are parting. If shower curtain was being slowly opened at a speed of 1 millimetre per minute and you were set to stare at that door for an hour, when exactly would you notice it is opening?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:you can watch the entire curtain at once. What kind of metal rejects do you perceive on guard duty only watching the top few inches of the thing???

The greater the area you focus on, the less you would be able to perceive subtle movements.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes, you have meat eyes watching the security just in case magic or psionics can block cyber ones, and you have Cyber eyes (skelebots, cameras, motion detectors etc) just in case the meat eyes are fooled.

This brings up an interesting idea:

What if, rather than invisibility, the solution is simply to create a magical illusion over the area of an unparted curtain?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:"oh I think a camera could do it better" When we're literally discussing a spell that would make a camera fail. lol You think over the 100 years the CS has been a thing, they never heard about that spell? One of the vanguard din't give them a heads up? Or a mage caught INSIDE the city didn't give up how he got past the cameras under.... 'enhanced questioning'???

Again this only works if your CS are LITERALLY retarded.

The spell in question would make a camera fail to detect a person, not fail to detect a curtain. Some other spell cold probably manage that, but then some other spell could make humans fail to detect a curtain too. I think 'illusion' in either case.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It doesn't matter if you roll at the rate of a cm every hour. The curtain is still going to bow out and move 'around' you. people notice it when it's moved out of standard placement. Even if it moves slowly. You're targeted and eliminated for being stupid.

Oh? So WHEN do they notice? I think it's potentially a slow-boiled frog situation.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's actually a well spread myth. Chocolate is 'poisonous' to dogs, if they eat their own body weight in high coca dark chocolate. The myth was mainly spread by parents that didn't want their kids sharing their (Realitivly) expensive treats with their pets, and some vets wink wink nudge nudge going along with it. Your dog is fine.

If your 4 pound yorkiepoo ate 2 POUNDS of dark chocolate it might get sick, but if it ate two pounds of anything it's likely going to get sick.

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxicolo ... /chocolate claims "One ounce of milk chocolate per pound of body weight is a potentially lethal dose in dogs.", so rather than 2 pounds (32 ounces) it sounds like 4 ounces would be enough for fatal effects. MILD (non-fatal) symptoms also appear to start at 0.02 oz/lb according to Merck.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So now you're playing 6 inch player characters. Well if we're going to add even MORE to the what is it? Three or four spells we've stacked up, why not super powers too, intangibility would get you past the curtain fine. added to allllllll the other absurd stuff you might just make it.

Who needs Intangibility? Already mentioned the temporal spell d-phase.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
The magnets would still take a small amount of time doing this, so human walkers would leave a wake for short people to follow through.

Which is why you enforce a pause.

Like a "the beads are sitting atop my head and back" pause to see if you grew a tiny gnomish hunchback or bead-booty?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You need to reread the 50 or so source material books. If anything, the CS is not skimping on security.

No matter how many billions you spend on security, you can always make it more secure, so inevitably you relativistically "skimp" somewhere desired if some other desired placed seems more important.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:When you're a guard you use as many senses as you can at the same time to take in more information and process it. Your eyes to watch for things, ears to listen, nose to smell (More than one sneak has been betrayed by odor, and not just by dogs.) you even 'feel'. Displaced aircurrents or vibrations in floors have given sneaks away. Now it's doubt ful you'll taste someone, but the others you use.

I 100% agree that guards will be instructed to use many senses: which will make them slightly sub-optimal than they would be if focusing one sense on one task. Even if it's as minor as being 99% as good.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:guards aren't wearing ear plugs to cut out the sound so they can 'Watch harder' and some aren't sitting around with black out goggles on so they listen harder.

I agree, because the net benefit of using all senses is better: but it does mean they wouldn't be as good as if they did that. They might not need to be, but if you were trying to utterly maximize one sense and avoid distraction, I think you would do that.

dreicunan wrote:all CS entry points have extremely groovy beaded curtains, and "Incense and Peppermints" by Strawberry Alarm Clock is playing as people move through them.

Don't forget the potted roses.

Mark Hall wrote:Sufficient incense smoke could also serve to alert guards (in fully environmental armor, naturally) due to unnatural movement in the smoke.

What if the person going through the checkpoint is merely farting? You couldn't even smell it due to the environmental BA so it might be an entity escaping his pockets.

The Beast wrote:The dog boy's breath from when he blew on his hot coffee was strong enough to move curtains. Clearly that's a supernatural creature in some sort of metamorphic disguise and the other guards there are failing their primary duty because they're all too busy looking at the curtains.

I can blow my bedroom door shut if I stand close enough, and dog-boys probably have lungs thrice as powerful as mine.

A better explanation than coffee however might be if dog-boys pant to stay cool, which they might need to, since they don't often get full environmental body armor (only occasional surplus) with built-in AC, yet they are still dressed in heavy black plate, have loads of muscle, fur, etc.

Makes me wonder what the seasonal temperatures of chi-town are. Are we going to assume the CS with its unlimited resources can keep all checkpoints perfectly air-conditioned?

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:05 pm**

The Beast wrote:All those posts PJ and you still missed the one thing that needed a response. The dog boy's breath from when he blew on his hot coffee was strong enough to move curtains. Clearly that's a supernatural creature in some sort of metamorphic disguise and the other guards there are failing their primary duty because they're all too busy looking at the curtains.

Because they're so groovy!

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:35 pm**

Assign a skelebot to stare at the curtain. Skelebots don’ blink, or get bored, or inattentive.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 pm**

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Perception wouldn't need to be perfect if what you're trying to perceive is glaringly obvious. You must not have a mental image of what we're talking about here. All your 'Oh you could sneak under it by moving slow" and what not. The beads would still move and cause a void the size of a human body. you'd have to be literally retarded not to notice that and that's pushing it.

That depends on where your attention is focused, how much sleep you got, what's on your mind, etc. I've sometimes been so disoriented I don't even notice a door is open/closed when I'm right next to it and assumed the latter. It's an eventual risk with any human guard.

Which is why there's not just one guard, guarding a point of entry to a highly fortified fortress city. There's multiples. So if someone starts slacking off you can pimpslap the back of their helmet and get them back on tasks. That's what NCO's are for. And... did you some how miss... the what.. 5 or so times I pointed out multiple redundancy? So your one mentally defective guard that some how got placed on guard duty.. and can't see a frigging curtain move... isn't the last line of defense for the CS fortress city? The others would pick up the glaringly obvious thing?

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:You'd have to have a severe mental retardation to some how miss it and at that point we're talking "Can't dress yourself' sort of mental deficency. Not the person you have standing on guard duty.

Mental deficiency/retardation can be a temporary state

So it's your contention now... that the guard, who's life literally depends on the actions he's conducting... just so happens to have a momentary attack of retardation, the instant someone tries to breech security.

Wow. Lucky infiltrator....

Axelmania wrote: that even very competent humans can sink to when under extreme stress,

This is their chosen profession, and while stressful, wouldn't be any more stressful than any other day on the wall.

Axelmania wrote: and I imagine it's stressful being a CS soldier.

Any soldier really. But one stationed inside of Chi town is going to be a lot more chill than one out on the frontier. One working a security check point isn't going to be more stressed than someone working the US border or the TSA, or more likely the DMZ in South Korea. They do their jobs and go home at the end of the day and watch tv

Axelmania wrote: I think much of the reliance on competence with this approach would be on the fatigue-immune Skelebot, making them the point of failure enemies would target.

Because you're acting like all the human troops and all the dog boy troops are just alseep at the switch. this is the CS military. We don't have it typed out in a book, what happens to people that slack off at guard duty, but I'm guessing it's going to be something akin to the Mobile Infantry of Starship troopers.

Perhaps a stern talking to by your NCO for first offense (Maybe skipping that) and strung up and lashed for a second, and drummed out with a dishonorable discharge for a second or third, if not jail. This is the safety of the CS at stake here. your personification of Bevis and Butthead jerkingaround, picking their noses and staring at the sun, so oblivious that they can't even see a curtain part to admit a human sized individual because... that individual was sooooo crafty as to part the curtain at the bottom, is absurd. Are there jerkoffs and lay abouts in the CS military? Oh yes.

But you don't station them at one of your few points of entry for your fortress city. you send them out to hold the line at some back of beyond wilderness out post.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:If you're an ant you could pull it off, but you're not playing an ant, so we can just table such stupidity.

If a 6 foot guy is say, 2 feet broad, then a shrunk to 6 inches guy would be 2 inches broad. A slow-motion 1 inch radius cylinder rolling under this will ALWAYS be detected?

You're moving the goal posts and adding in even more additional spells that this mage is pulling off all at the same time. If you're giving him superpowers too this becomes a different equasion. And my point wasn't that the curtain can stop any and all things. it was that the curtain would stop the combo proposed up thread.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It doesn't matter how slowly you move. Your body displaces the beads. They move to allow the body through them. unless your body is a cm or less thick, you're displacing the beads. Moving slower will just make them part .... slowly. Where in the guard on duty smirks elbows his friend, Targets the middle of the gap and vaporizes your head.

I think the human eye is attracted to faster movement and uber-slow movement might not register.

The human isn't a Trex from Jurassic park. Infact the Trex from Jurassic park wasn't even the Trex from Jurassic park. that misconception was cleaned up in later books as a misunderstanding of the movement bast visual acuity.

If you're a guard, set to guard a hallway and watch a curtain for movement, and movement indicates magical or high tech invaders, which have to be assumed to be hostile and at LEAST possessing magic and or tech to be rendered invisible... then yeah you're going to pay attention to any movement fast or slow.

Again your concept that the guards are too mind numbingly stupid, to register movement in the one thing they're watching for movement in, is frankly stupid.

Axelmania wrote:

If you're rolling the "middle" of the gap would by your abdomen not your head.

It doesn't matter, a human sized object has to displace a human sized hole.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Because the beads aren't just going to part to allow an object through them on their own. So if/when they do part you know SOMETHING is coming through.

Only if your brain can register they are parting. If shower curtain was being slowly opened at a speed of 1 millimetre per minute and you were set to stare at that door for an hour, when exactly would you notice it is opening?

When it starts to move. I.E. with in the first minute, and before you can fit an entire person through the gap. lol Just because it's moving slowly doesn't mean you don't notice the gap and you're going to notice it before its more than an inch wide, because... that's what you're watching for, and you're not slipping through in that small amount of space, with out MORE spells and super powers poured on top, changing the equation.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:you can watch the entire curtain at once. What kind of metal rejects do you perceive on guard duty only watching the top few inches of the thing???

The greater the area you focus on, the less you would be able to perceive subtle movements.

A human sized gap is not subtle unless you're far far away or your npc's are very very VERY stupid.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yes, you have meat eyes watching the security just in case magic or psionics can block cyber ones, and you have Cyber eyes (skelebots, cameras, motion detectors etc) just in case the meat eyes are fooled.

This brings up an interesting idea:

What if, rather than invisibility, the solution is simply to create a magical illusion over the area of an unparted curtain?

The skelebot just shoots the mage and a different one brings a mop? The motion detectors pick up the movement instead of the illusion, etc etc etc. the only way the above combo even has a chance is with the invisible to sensors thing included. With out it you're stopped before you start.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:"oh I think a camera could do it better" When we're literally discussing a spell that would make a camera fail. lol You think over the 100 years the CS has been a thing, they never heard about that spell? One of the vanguard din't give them a heads up? Or a mage caught INSIDE the city didn't give up how he got past the cameras under.... 'enhanced questioning'???

Again this only works if your CS are LITERALLY retarded.

The spell in question would make a camera fail to detect a person, not fail to detect a curtain. Some other spell cold probably manage that, but then some other spell could make humans fail to detect a curtain too. I think 'illusion' in either case.

Illusion isn't going to trick the motion sensors and Skelebots, and the dog boys are going to pick you up. Even if they can't see you they'll sense and smell you and hit the button dropping the blast doors, then you're toast.

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:It doesn't matter if you roll at the rate of a cm every hour. The curtain is still going to bow out and move 'around' you. people notice it when it's moved out of standard placement. Even if it moves slowly. You're targeted and eliminated for being stupid.

Oh? So WHEN do they notice? I think it's potentially a slow-boiled frog situation.

Only because you're attributing the guards with the brain of a frog. The easiest answer is that the magnetic strip on the floor that pulls the beads back into line, is painted a different color. So you can tell when the beads are off the mark.

And as simple as a sensor that triggers when ever a mild electrical contact is lost with the strand. if the beads break contact with the floor the light flashes. Light flashing draws the eye (As if they wern't already watching) and you look to see what sets it off. The beads are out of place? Why? Oh my there's a void in the curtain the size of a human or dbee. what could that possibly be? Maybe we should hit the button closing the blast door and investigate!

Axelmania wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:It's actually a well spread myth. Chocolate is 'poisonous' to dogs, if they eat their own body weight in high coca dark chocolate. The myth was mainly spread by parents that didn't want their kids sharing their (Realitivly) expensive treats with their pets, and some vets wink wink nudge nudge going along with it. Your dog is fine.

If your 4 pound yorkiepoo ate 2 POUNDS of dark chocolate it might get sick, but if it ate two pounds of anything it's likely going to get sick.

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxicolo ... /chocolate claims "One ounce of milk chocolate per pound of body weight is a potentially lethal dose in dogs.", so rather than 2 pounds (32 ounces) it sounds like 4 ounces would be enough for fatal effects. MILD (non-fatal) symptoms also appear to start at 0.02 oz/lb according to Merck.

As I said it's a well spread myth. I've worked in vets offices. I can't tell you how often panic'd people bring their dogs in for getting ahold of a chocolate bar. Dr Kourtney would just laugh softly and check them out. If the people insisted, (And they often did) he'd run a few tests. In literal -years- of working at the vet. I never once saw chocolate kill a dog. Nothing more than making the dog throw up. Which can happen with any 'people food' you give it. Depending on the dog. Kids give chocolate to dogs -aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll- the time. Very few of them even get sick. There's not 1000s of dogs killing over every day becaus they got a few ounces of chocolate. Heck I even saw it make it into an RPG about werewolves once. It's silly.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:So now you're playing 6 inch player characters. Well if we're going to add even MORE to the what is it? Three or four spells we've stacked up, why not super powers too, intangibility would get you past the curtain fine. added to allllllll the other absurd stuff you might just make it.

Who needs Intangibility? Already mentioned the temporal spell d-phase.

Riiight.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
The magnets would still take a small amount of time doing this, so human walkers would leave a wake for short people to follow through.

Which is why you enforce a pause.

Like a "the beads are sitting atop my head and back" pause to see if you grew a tiny gnomish hunchback or bead-booty?

I don't even know what you're talking about.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:You need to reread the 50 or so source material books. If anything, the CS is not skimping on security.

No matter how many billions you spend on security, you can always make it more secure, so inevitably you relativistically "skimp" somewhere desired if some other desired placed seems more important.

But choosing to skimp on points of entry, JUST So the other side has a better chance of getting in, would be pretty dumb.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:When you're a guard you use as many senses as you can at the same time to take in more information and process it. Your eyes to watch for things, ears to listen, nose to smell (More than one sneak has been betrayed by odor, and not just by dogs.) you even 'feel'. Displaced aircurrents or vibrations in floors have given sneaks away. Now it's doubt ful you'll taste someone, but the others you use.

I 100% agree that guards will be instructed to use many senses: which will make them slightly sub-optimal than they would be if focusing one sense on one task. Even if it's as minor as being 99% as good.

Which doesn't matter. You're just arguing to argue.

Axelmania wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:guards aren't wearing ear plugs to cut out the sound so they can 'Watch harder' and some aren't sitting around with black out goggles on so they listen harder.

I agree, because the net benefit of using all senses is better: but it does mean they wouldn't be as good as if they did that. They might not need to be, but if you were trying to utterly maximize one sense and avoid distraction, I think you would do that.

It's stupid. Full stop. No guard station in the WORLD has guards sitting with ear plugs in so they can 'watch 1% harder' or masks over their eyes so they "Can listen 1% harder"

It's stupid. Stop it.

Axelmania wrote:
I can blow my bedroom door shut if I stand close enough, and dog-boys probably have lungs thrice as powerful as mine.

So now we have the big bad wolf guarding the door..... and huffing and puffing and blowing at the security curtains... but they're too stupid to notice if the curtains move.....

Axelmania wrote:
A better explanation than coffee however might be if dog-boys pant to stay cool, which they might need to, since they don't often get full environmental body armor (only occasional surplus) with built-in AC, yet they are still dressed in heavy black plate, have loads of muscle, fur, etc.

Which doesn't move curtains more than an inch or two from their face...

Axelmania wrote: Makes me wonder what the seasonal temperatures of chi-town are. Are we going to assume the CS with its unlimited resources can keep all checkpoints perfectly air-conditioned?

The check points would lead through the hallway and secure location. They may 'start' out doors but you'll be funneled through quite a bit of indoor area before you're free to move about the city.

Chi town has the resources to build millions of nuclear reactors the size of hockey pucks. They can pull off AC if they wish.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:42 pm**

Mack wrote:Assign a skelebot to stare at the curtain. Skelebots don’ blink, or get bored, or inattentive.

I've said this. Often.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:20 pm**

While we're on the groovy train: instead of beads, why not just have a fan blowing glitter around? It would probably stick to any invisible guys making them easy to see, not just temporarily as they pass through a bead-door but for an extended period until they wipe/wash the glitter particles off.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:33 pm**

Axelmania wrote:While we're on the groovy train: instead of beads, why not just have a fan blowing glitter around? It would probably stick to any invisible guys making them easy to see, not just temporarily as they pass through a bead-door but for an extended period until they wipe/wash the glitter particles off.

Because then the glitter gets all over everything and into everything.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:12 pm**

dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:While we're on the groovy train: instead of beads, why not just have a fan blowing glitter around? It would probably stick to any invisible guys making them easy to see, not just temporarily as they pass through a bead-door but for an extended period until they wipe/wash the glitter particles off.

Because then the glitter gets all over everything and into everything.

Actually, one of the most effective attacks on Chi-Town might just be to Teleport Object in a bunch of glitter bombs.
Wouldn't set off 6th Sense or Clairvoyance, and the CS might eventually surrender just out of irritation!

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:21 pm**

Not if you have EBA armor. Though perhaps filters could be clogged over time... makes me wonder if there are any rules for doing that, Dead Boys in a sandstorm for example eventually suffocating due to clogged filters once their oxygen supply runs out, unless they remove their filters and clean them constantly. I vacuum a lot, I understand this prob.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:45 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:While we're on the groovy train: instead of beads, why not just have a fan blowing glitter around? It would probably stick to any invisible guys making them easy to see, not just temporarily as they pass through a bead-door but for an extended period until they wipe/wash the glitter particles off.

Because then the glitter gets all over everything and into everything.

Actually, one of the most effective attacks on Chi-Town might just be to Teleport Object in a bunch of glitter bombs.
Wouldn't set off 6th Sense or Clairvoyance, and the CS might eventually surrender just out of irritation!

Glitter: The Herpes of Craft Supplies

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:15 pm**

Mark Hall wrote:Glitter: The Herpes of Craft Supplies

Posted: **Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:12 am**

Is there any information on how much traffic Chi-Town sees each day? That would be rather important to know when it comes to infiltrating it.
If there are only 100 or so people coming in each they you can have so extensive checks that infiltrating that way, magic or not, is impossible.
On the other hand if tens of thousands people enter and leave daily + extensive freight handling then there are limits on the checks that can be performed when you want to handle it.

Same for air traffic. When the sky around Chi-Town os constantly filled with vehicles going to, from or past it it is a lot more easy to throw or shoot a package undetected onto a balcony then when you can count the number of crafts each day on one hand.

Posted: **Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:26 am**

Ixal wrote:Is there any information on how much traffic Chi-Town sees each day? That would be rather important to know when it comes to infiltrating it.
If there are only 100 or so people coming in each they you can have so extensive checks that infiltrating that way, magic or not, is impossible.
On the other hand if tens of thousands people enter and leave daily + extensive freight handling then there are limits on the checks that can be performed when you want to handle it.

Same for air traffic. When the sky around Chi-Town os constantly filled with vehicles going to, from or past it it is a lot more easy to throw or shoot a package undetected onto a balcony then when you can count the number of crafts each day on one hand.

Its that bolded one.

Its covered in Black Market. There's a large minority of the workforce for the city that commutes in, and the loading docks are busy 24/7.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:09 am**

dreicunan wrote:Teleport: Lesser and its 5 mile per level range is the spell that makes me think that Chi-town and other locations must have an undocumented way to prevent teleportation inside, because otherwise rhere should be explosions going off on a regular basis, especially during and after the war with Tolkeen. 50 lbs is an awful lot of explosive power with the right explosives! I'm now also wondeing what the closet ley line to Chi-town is, because since ley lines disrupt psi-stalker and psi-hound sensing, they'd have a heck of a time denying that area to maguc users to launch attacks. Wait a minute, ley lines increase range by 50%, and we know that Old Chicago has plenty of ley lines and Chi-town is only 80 miles away from Old Chicago, so that would confirm that magic users at least lvl 12 and up (And likely lvl 11, with an 82.5 mi range, and you only need to be within 2 miles of the ley line to get the range boost) could just regularly be terrorizing the residents of Chi-town with packs of frag grenades...or frag missile warheads rigged to go off. If medium warheads weigh under 50lbs, you coukd get the same radius with plasma warheads.

Lvl 11-12 spellcaster - so, about the same tier as the king of Tolkeen and some (not all, not even the majority, i think) of his councillors and warlords?

Something tells me those are not exactly easy to come by.... :-P

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:43 pm**

SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Teleport: Lesser and its 5 mile per level range is the spell that makes me think that Chi-town and other locations must have an undocumented way to prevent teleportation inside, because otherwise rhere should be explosions going off on a regular basis, especially during and after the war with Tolkeen. 50 lbs is an awful lot of explosive power with the right explosives! I'm now also wondeing what the closet ley line to Chi-town is, because since ley lines disrupt psi-stalker and psi-hound sensing, they'd have a heck of a time denying that area to maguc users to launch attacks. Wait a minute, ley lines increase range by 50%, and we know that Old Chicago has plenty of ley lines and Chi-town is only 80 miles away from Old Chicago, so that would confirm that magic users at least lvl 12 and up (And likely lvl 11, with an 82.5 mi range, and you only need to be within 2 miles of the ley line to get the range boost) could just regularly be terrorizing the residents of Chi-town with packs of frag grenades...or frag missile warheads rigged to go off. If medium warheads weigh under 50lbs, you coukd get the same radius with plasma warheads.

Lvl 11-12 spellcaster - so, about the same tier as the king of Tolkeen and some (not all, not even the majority, i think) of his councillors and warlords?

Something tells me those are not exactly easy to come by....

Perhaps not, but it would only take a few to make life very uneasy inside a fortress city. That said, this is why I was wondering what the nearest ley line to Chi-town is. If there is one that passes within 30 miles of it, you'd only need to be level 4 to pull it off!

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:21 pm**

SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Lvl 11-12 spellcaster - so, about the same tier as the king of Tolkeen and some (not all, not even the majority, i think) of his councillors and warlords?

Something tells me those are not exactly easy to come by....

... sorta?

Because then you run across descriptions of towns where the "average level" of the Mystics/TWs/Spellcasters who live there (hundreds to thousands of each) is 7-9, meaning that there have to be at least a decent percentage that are both lower and higher. So 12th level spellcasters aren't exactly super-duper rare. Just not common.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:29 pm**

dreicunan wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Teleport: Lesser and its 5 mile per level range is the spell that makes me think that Chi-town and other locations must have an undocumented way to prevent teleportation inside, because otherwise rhere should be explosions going off on a regular basis, especially during and after the war with Tolkeen. 50 lbs is an awful lot of explosive power with the right explosives! I'm now also wondeing what the closet ley line to Chi-town is, because since ley lines disrupt psi-stalker and psi-hound sensing, they'd have a heck of a time denying that area to maguc users to launch attacks. Wait a minute, ley lines increase range by 50%, and we know that Old Chicago has plenty of ley lines and Chi-town is only 80 miles away from Old Chicago, so that would confirm that magic users at least lvl 12 and up (And likely lvl 11, with an 82.5 mi range, and you only need to be within 2 miles of the ley line to get the range boost) could just regularly be terrorizing the residents of Chi-town with packs of frag grenades...or frag missile warheads rigged to go off. If medium warheads weigh under 50lbs, you coukd get the same radius with plasma warheads.

Lvl 11-12 spellcaster - so, about the same tier as the king of Tolkeen and some (not all, not even the majority, i think) of his councillors and warlords?

Something tells me those are not exactly easy to come by....

Perhaps not, but it would only take a few to make life very uneasy inside a fortress city. That said, this is why I was wondering what the nearest ley line to Chi-town is. If there is one that passes within 30 miles of it, you'd only need to be level 4 to pull it off!

Heroes of Humanity as some handwavium reasons as to why spellcasters can't teleport into Chi-Town. It mostly boils down to not knowing the interior and robust Dog Boy patrols. It's canon, but I recommend reading it and coming to your own conclusion as to it's validity.

For me, if mages can teleport into Chi-Town, then it would be reduced to rubble in short order and most of the setting would fall apart.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:17 pm**

not to mention that the whole mega-city is an armored MDC structure so likely damage would be fairly minimal and if someone pulled that the armed forces of the coalition would go **** hunting down every vaguely magically inclined sort in like 100 miles and killing them terribly, which would be bad both for whoever did that and countless people entirely unrelated to the conflict.

PC-logic is funny.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:50 pm**

Mack wrote:For me, if mages can teleport into Chi-Town, then it would be reduced to rubble in short order and most of the setting would fall apart.

I disagree.

Every crime needs a means, a motive, and an opportunity.

For something like leveling a MDC mega-city, you'd have to have somebody (or somebodies) with the right combination of spells/bombs/whatever, blind hatred, and a good plan that wouldn't let the attack be detected ahead of time.

I think that'd be a heck of a rare combo.

Look at how terrorism works in the real world.
Occasionally there's a pretty significant attack, but they're very rare, and not exactly city-threatening.
There has to be just the right combination of people, motive, resources, and circumstances.
When a truly damaging terrorist attack actually happens, it can be devastating, but such attacks are very few and far between.
Decades can pass between truly significant attacks in the real world.

The entire game of Rifts has been... what, like a little over 1 decade?

I don't find it implausible for a nation who has enemies, and who has vulnerabilities, to still be standing simply because the right combination of enemies and vulnerabilities hasn't met up yet.
That's how the real world tends to work.

Posted: **Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:01 am**

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Lvl 11-12 spellcaster - so, about the same tier as the king of Tolkeen and some (not all, not even the majority, i think) of his councillors and warlords?

Something tells me those are not exactly easy to come by....

... sorta?

Because then you run across descriptions of towns where the "average level" of the Mystics/TWs/Spellcasters who live there (hundreds to thousands of each) is 7-9, meaning that there have to be at least a decent percentage that are both lower and higher. So 12th level spellcasters aren't exactly super-duper rare. Just not common.

Honestly, i would recommend taking them with a grain of salt - not to say completely ignore those - because they are kind of ridiculous from a sense of scale, specially when one stops to think that a lot of actually stated, major, quite iconic and sometimes near legendary NPCs like, the Proseks, many of the CS most notorious generals, the King of Tolkeen & his council and warlords, Alistair Dunscon among others prime movers, are in the 8th-10 or 10th-12th range, depending on case.

Not to mention how it utterly ignores the basics in the deesscription of one of the essential spells of the game, See Aura:

Seeing an aura will indicate the following: • Estimate the general level of experience. Low (1-3), medium (4-7), high (8th and up).

Admitedly, YMMV, but the books kind of follow that scale when it comes to actual characters and not random lists of nameless figures for cities or organizations - and let's be honest, some of those can be utter nonsense, like the Tauton population of the Phoenix Empire or the percentage of demons in Dweomer's population. :wink:

Damn, the only canon NPCs above lvl 12 i can remember that are not demigods, godlings, dragons or any other such near-immortal beings Aramis Knight of the Grim Reapers and General Cabot of the CS, who are both 15th level and contemporaries of Joseph Prosek's Campaign of Blood, the conflict that would be the birthcry of the Coalition as we know it....

Sorry, there's also Rasputin the Grey, who's level 14 Shifter and about 56 years old in 109 PA, according to VK Revised. That said, i would take it with a grain of salt in that the character is hell of vague and sketchy - we know "the Old Russian Empire is his native land", and he is linked to a supernatural intelligence known as the Grey One, Lord of the Shadows; origin and powers unknown to all but Rasputin. Even to the GM. Yeah, really. :lol:

To boot, he speaks Euro, not Russian, exactly like his original write-up back in '91. No update or care whatsoever for this poor vaguely overpowered guy. Age change, a vague mention of the Gray One knowing Camazotz - actual status or truthfulness of relationship not givenn, in fact, it's suggested it might be a false rumor started by either Guild or the priests of Camazotz. So, he's an early superpower that has been in an Orcus on his Throne state from before Atlantis ever since.

Posted: **Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:57 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Mack wrote:For me, if mages can teleport into Chi-Town, then it would be reduced to rubble in short order and most of the setting would fall apart.

I disagree.

Every crime needs a means, a motive, and an opportunity.

For something like leveling a MDC mega-city, you'd have to have somebody (or somebodies) with the right combination of spells/bombs/whatever, blind hatred, and a good plan that wouldn't let the attack be detected ahead of time.

I think that'd be a heck of a rare combo.

Look at how terrorism works in the real world.
Occasionally there's a pretty significant attack, but they're very rare, and not exactly city-threatening.
There has to be just the right combination of people, motive, resources, and circumstances.
When a truly damaging terrorist attack actually happens, it can be devastating, but such attacks are very few and far between.
Decades can pass between truly significant attacks in the real world.

The entire game of Rifts has been... what, like a little over 1 decade?

I don't find it implausible for a nation who has enemies, and who has vulnerabilities, to still be standing simply because the right combination of enemies and vulnerabilities hasn't met up yet.
That's how the real world tends to work.

Allow me to expand... if it’s straightforward to teleport into Chi-Town, then it would’ve been happening for the last century (or more). The current version of Chi-Town would not have come into being, if at all.

Posted: **Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:36 pm**

Mack wrote:Allow me to expand... if it’s straightforward to teleport into Chi-Town, then it would’ve been happening for the last century (or more). The current version of Chi-Town would not have come into being, if at all.

Agreed. If it was easy some group or another would be trying it weekly or monthly because they think they have a clever plan no one has ever tried before. "Let's teleport into the basement where the reactors are kept and plant some fusion blocks on the coolant system!" and "Let's teleport into Prosek's bedroom at 4am and kill the bastard!" and "Let's teleport into this area where we think the black vault is and see if we're right, if we're not we can teleport right back out!"

I'm guessing the most common spell for these attempts woudl be Mystic Portal which is a 10th level spell, costs 60 PPE and at level 10 has a 1000ft range. So they could probably be trying these from a building in the burbs as close to the wall of Chi-Town as they can get.

Teleport Superior is level 15 and costs 600 PPE, so that would be used less. Yes you can use a ley line to power the first casting, but to get out again you won't have a ley line to lean on inside Chi-Town. Maybe if you bring some kind of PPE battery with you.

I'm not sure what other spells people might be trying, as I tend to not play casters.

Super powers could be more of a headache for them, as they are total wildcards the coalition can't really prepare for unless they know of that specific person and their powers in advance. Invulnerability + teleportation (or other physics defying power like intangiblity) would basically make that guy a perfect terrorist against the CS. Teleport in, cause mayhem until psychics or some other effective respose (gas) start responding then teleport away, or to another part of chi-town and keep going. For maximum effect maybe teleport into the offices where the generals do their work or again go for the reactors.

Astral Transference would be a headache for the CS to deal with, I think. But that power is from the Nightbane world so I would guess you could count the number of people on Rifts Earth who have it on one hand. Maybe two. But that one would be very easy to astral walk in (avoiding the psychics if possible), materialize for a few seconds to plant some fusion blocks somewhere vulnerable and then go astral again and leave.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:16 pm**

You guys are looking at the wrong spells. No need to go in yourself and plant an explosive. If you can find a way to make the location "known" to you, you can send 50 lbs of explosives there with an 80% + 2% per level chance of success. Given that having a photo of the place is enough to give an 80% chance of success for Teleport: Superior, I'd rule that it would be enough for Teleport: Lesser as well, but I'm unaware of a clear canon guide on what counts as "known." That said, it wouldn't make sense to require having actually been there, as if that were the case one would just say that. Failure does mean that the explosives end up anywhere within your range, but the odds of success are high. Given that there is a ton of territory in which it can end up if a mage does fail, the odds of killing an innocent are pretty low (no actual rules for determining where it ends up, so I'm saying that on the assumption that there is an equal chance of it ending up anywhere within the range).

50 lbs of explosives can do an awful lot of damage if they are the right explosives.

Teleport: Lesser also only costs 15 PPE. It takes 2 melees to cast, but for terrorism purposes that isn't a big deal. I already talked about the range issues earlier in the thread. It is only a level 6 spell.

I double-checked heroes of humanity, and it addresses Teleport: Superior and Mystic Portal, but it seems that using Teleport: Lesser to send in explosives was not considered.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:44 pm**

I had the teleport lesser thought after posting. I would say if this (or any teleport worked) then every mage who could cast teleport lesser and get some explosives would be doing this. Chi-Town would be constantly under siege. But maybe this is why the patrols are so heavy in the Burbs and dogboy and psi-stalkers are included. Lesser is low enough level that a SIGNIFICANT number of mages could do it and if this was a viable tactic fed of magic would be throwing tons of personnel and explosives at it. Even if they fail to target what they were goign for or don't have a picture of what they want, odds are good they're hitting a person or power conduit or plumbing or whatever in the inner walls and affecting morale of citizens and such. If this type of bombardment kept happening, Chi-Town wouldn't have such a high population and it would hurt the Coalition's image of humanity's greatest hope.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:27 pm**

Pretty sure you guys are overlooking how hard it is to make the innards of chi-town "known" to a mage as well as how easy it is to find a large pile of explosives when they have explosive sniffing dog-guards checking any non-coalition shipment. This isn't an issue of the spell so much as the coalition is likely to find the bomb before you get into range and shoot you to pieces over it.

Doubt there's anyone with a large enough supply of suicidal mages to make it a viable plan of attack.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:16 pm**

Mack wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Mack wrote:For me, if mages can teleport into Chi-Town, then it would be reduced to rubble in short order and most of the setting would fall apart.

I disagree.

Every crime needs a means, a motive, and an opportunity.

For something like leveling a MDC mega-city, you'd have to have somebody (or somebodies) with the right combination of spells/bombs/whatever, blind hatred, and a good plan that wouldn't let the attack be detected ahead of time.

I think that'd be a heck of a rare combo.

Look at how terrorism works in the real world.
Occasionally there's a pretty significant attack, but they're very rare, and not exactly city-threatening.
There has to be just the right combination of people, motive, resources, and circumstances.
When a truly damaging terrorist attack actually happens, it can be devastating, but such attacks are very few and far between.
Decades can pass between truly significant attacks in the real world.

The entire game of Rifts has been... what, like a little over 1 decade?

I don't find it implausible for a nation who has enemies, and who has vulnerabilities, to still be standing simply because the right combination of enemies and vulnerabilities hasn't met up yet.
That's how the real world tends to work.

Allow me to expand... if it’s straightforward to teleport into Chi-Town, then it would’ve been happening for the last century (or more). The current version of Chi-Town would not have come into being, if at all.

I think you're over-estimating how many powerful mages would be willing to die (or risk death) in order to stop Chi-Town or the Coalition, as well as the effect they might have.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:52 pm**

dreicunan wrote:You guys are looking at the wrong spells. No need to go in yourself and plant an explosive. If you can find a way to make the location "known" to you, you can send 50 lbs of explosives there with an 80% + 2% per level chance of success. Given that having a photo of the place is enough to give an 80% chance of success for Teleport: Superior, I'd rule that it would be enough for Teleport: Lesser as well, but I'm unaware of a clear canon guide on what counts as "known." That said, it wouldn't make sense to require having actually been there, as if that were the case one would just say that. Failure does mean that the explosives end up anywhere within your range, but the odds of success are high. Given that there is a ton of territory in which it can end up if a mage does fail, the odds of killing an innocent are pretty low (no actual rules for determining where it ends up, so I'm saying that on the assumption that there is an equal chance of it ending up anywhere within the range).

50 lbs of explosives can do an awful lot of damage if they are the right explosives.

Teleport: Lesser also only costs 15 PPE. It takes 2 melees to cast, but for terrorism purposes that isn't a big deal. I already talked about the range issues earlier in the thread. It is only a level 6 spell.

I double-checked heroes of humanity, and it addresses Teleport: Superior and Mystic Portal, but it seems that using Teleport: Lesser to send in explosives was not considered.

As a level 6 spell, it would indeed be more common.

Teleport Superior is a level 15 spell, which would be extremely rare. In the places that have magic shops that are willing and able to sell spells, a level 10 or higher spell costs CR 250,000-1,000,000, and there's only a 10% chance of it being available.
RMB 164
Spell knowledge is power, thus it is guarded jealously by most mages. Even in friendly and open like Tolkeen, Lazlo, and New lazlo, there are sme spells that are guarded secrets, rarely taught; these generally include most spells above level 10.

Teleport: Lesser, on the other hand, being a level 6 spell, could be potentially obtained from a Guild (by a guild member) for "an incredible act of heroics or self-sacrifice" that helps the guild.
OR could be purchased from a magic shop for as little as CR 70,000, if you can find a magic shop that teaches spells, that teaches above level 4 spells, and that teaches that specific spell.

That still doesn't mean that it would be very commonly known.

The Venn Diagram intersection of:
mages who know the spell,
mages who want to attack chi-town,
mages who are competent enough to attack chi-town,
mages who have the means to attack chi-town,
mages who "know" their target location within chi-town,
mages whose alignment allows terrorism and/or a chance of blowing up random people anywhere within range,
mages who are (or could reasonably travel to being) within casting range of Chi-Town,
would likely still involve relatively low numbers.

But such an attack could definitely occur.
What kind of damage would it do?
Well, that depends on what kind of explosives are sent in.
NG 6 Plastique, for example, inflicts 2d4x20+20 MD/lb.
So 50 lbs of NG 6 would inflict 100d4x20+100 MD (check my math!), a damage range of 2100-8100 MD to the epicenter, or half that within the (unspecified) blast area.
It would also cost CR 48,000, which is pretty cheap relatively speaking, but not a price that most people could or would be willing to drop on something with a ~20% chance of not working the way you want it to.
Also, while the blast area of Plasique isn't specified, we are told (RGMG 158) that "the explosion is usually contained mainly to the area where the plastique was placed, causing little shrapnel and putting the full force of the explosion in one concentrated area.
So according to the rules, even 50 lbs of plastique wouldn't be likely to take out more than 1 room or so.
At CR 48k per pop, it'd take a lot of time, money, and talent, to threaten even a medium-sized city using plastique without any house rules or generous rules interpretations.

There are plenty of other explosive types, of course, so if you want to discuss any specific kind, I'm game.

But in general, I don't think that this kind of attack would be any more likely to take out a CS city (even before they were as big as they are in 101 PA),
than suicide bombers are likely to take out Israel in the real world.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:40 pm**

dreicunan wrote:You guys are looking at the wrong spells. No need to go in yourself and plant an explosive. If you can find a way to make the location "known" to you, you can send 50 lbs of explosives there with an 80% + 2% per level chance of success. Given that having a photo of the place is enough to give an 80% chance of success for Teleport: Superior, I'd rule that it would be enough for Teleport: Lesser as well, but I'm unaware of a clear canon guide on what counts as "known." That said, it wouldn't make sense to require having actually been there, as if that were the case one would just say that.

As an aside, i would expect an actual scouting session through Astral Projection to be much more effective or reliable than using a photograph.

But i agree on the "having actually been there" point - if the photo were just a mnemonic tool, relevant just to shake up memories of a place previously known, personal presence would be the key element and described as so, what does not occur here. I would guess there's a "the photo is an imprint of the place/takes a little bit of what is photographed soul" bit of modern folklore/parapsycology at work here, what i find kind of cool.

Just my rambling thoughts.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:52 pm**

SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:You guys are looking at the wrong spells. No need to go in yourself and plant an explosive. If you can find a way to make the location "known" to you, you can send 50 lbs of explosives there with an 80% + 2% per level chance of success. Given that having a photo of the place is enough to give an 80% chance of success for Teleport: Superior, I'd rule that it would be enough for Teleport: Lesser as well, but I'm unaware of a clear canon guide on what counts as "known." That said, it wouldn't make sense to require having actually been there, as if that were the case one would just say that.

As an aside, i would expect an actual scouting session through Astral Projection to be much more effective or reliable than using a photograph.

There is nothing official that I'm aware of regarding CS Astral Patrols.
But they do have literally millions of psychics, a good deal of which would have astral projection.
I'd expect at least some resistance for astral travelers in CS astral territory.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:31 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:You guys are looking at the wrong spells. No need to go in yourself and plant an explosive. If you can find a way to make the location "known" to you, you can send 50 lbs of explosives there with an 80% + 2% per level chance of success. Given that having a photo of the place is enough to give an 80% chance of success for Teleport: Superior, I'd rule that it would be enough for Teleport: Lesser as well, but I'm unaware of a clear canon guide on what counts as "known." That said, it wouldn't make sense to require having actually been there, as if that were the case one would just say that.

As an aside, i would expect an actual scouting session through Astral Projection to be much more effective or reliable than using a photograph.

There is nothing official that I'm aware of regarding CS Astral Patrols.
But they do have literally millions of psychics, a good deal of which would have astral projection.
I'd expect at least some resistance for astral travelers in CS astral territory.

On literally millions of psychics, i very agree. A good deal of which would have astral projection, not so much....

Many psychics are minor and not all of them Sensitive, so just that might cut "a good deal" by a whole order of magnitude.

Psychics in the CS States might be better treated than in Free Quebec, but let's be honest, not by much and considering being psychic is one of those pesky little things that mark you as a mutant & 2nd class citizen in both societies, would say it's a pretty good bet many of those will be 'burb natives (possibly even criminals, or working on the edge of law).

Not all of which will have joining the military as a venue for inclusion/social acceptaance/respect. In fact, considering i have seen little to nothing in the books about CS use of anything beside Psi-Stalkers - feel free to correct me if i'm wrong - i would one's chances if anything else are not exactly so hot.

That said, yes, i do think the CS might have human psychics or dog-boys in sufficient numbers in the 'burbs to make any such shenanigans anything but a cakewalk.

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:46 pm**

SolCannibal wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:You guys are looking at the wrong spells. No need to go in yourself and plant an explosive. If you can find a way to make the location "known" to you, you can send 50 lbs of explosives there with an 80% + 2% per level chance of success. Given that having a photo of the place is enough to give an 80% chance of success for Teleport: Superior, I'd rule that it would be enough for Teleport: Lesser as well, but I'm unaware of a clear canon guide on what counts as "known." That said, it wouldn't make sense to require having actually been there, as if that were the case one would just say that.

As an aside, i would expect an actual scouting session through Astral Projection to be much more effective or reliable than using a photograph.

There is nothing official that I'm aware of regarding CS Astral Patrols.
But they do have literally millions of psychics, a good deal of which would have astral projection.
I'd expect at least some resistance for astral travelers in CS astral territory.

On literally millions of psychics, i very agree. A good deal of which would have astral projection, not so much....

Many psychics are minor and not all of them Sensitive, so just that might cut "a good deal" by a whole order of magnitude.

Psychics in the CS States might be better treated than in Free Quebec, but let's be honest, not by much and considering being psychic is one of those pesky little things that mark you as a mutant & 2nd class citizen in both societies, would say it's a pretty good bet many of those will be 'burb natives (possibly even criminals, or working on the edge of law).

Not all of which will have joining the military as a venue for inclusion/social acceptaance/respect. In fact, considering i have seen little to nothing in the books about CS use of anything beside Psi-Stalkers - feel free to correct me if i'm wrong - i would one's chances if anything else are not exactly so hot.

That said, yes, i do think the CS might have human psychics or dog-boys in sufficient numbers in the 'burbs to make any such shenanigans anything but a cakewalk.

Keep in mind that every Dog Boy has at least 1 Sensitive psychic power (barring odd mutations).
As of 102 PA, there were 2.4 million Dog Boys in the Coalition States.
With 23 Sensitive Psychic Powers available as of the RGMG,
IF we assume random distribution,
that's (check my math!) 103,347.826 Dog Boys who have Astral Projection.

Figuring for mutations...
4% would have NO Sensitive powers, so that's -4133.91304)
4% would have TWO Sensitive powers, so that's... crap... +179.73535?
4% would have 4 Psychic Sensitive powers... this is getting mathy... so.. that's like... +12,521.7391 more...?

Anyway, it's a LOT.

Granted, they'd be spread out over all of CS territory, perhaps beyond, and some of them have to sleep, but it's still a crazy crapton of Astral Projectors!

Posted: **Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:02 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
dreicunan wrote:You guys are looking at the wrong spells. No need to go in yourself and plant an explosive. If you can find a way to make the location "known" to you, you can send 50 lbs of explosives there with an 80% + 2% per level chance of success. Given that having a photo of the place is enough to give an 80% chance of success for Teleport: Superior, I'd rule that it would be enough for Teleport: Lesser as well, but I'm unaware of a clear canon guide on what counts as "known." That said, it wouldn't make sense to require having actually been there, as if that were the case one would just say that.

As an aside, i would expect an actual scouting session through Astral Projection to be much more effective or reliable than using a photograph.

There is nothing official that I'm aware of regarding CS Astral Patrols.
But they do have literally millions of psychics, a good deal of which would have astral projection.
I'd expect at least some resistance for astral travelers in CS astral territory.

On literally millions of psychics, i very agree. A good deal of which would have astral projection, not so much....

Many psychics are minor and not all of them Sensitive, so just that might cut "a good deal" by a whole order of magnitude.

Psychics in the CS States might be better treated than in Free Quebec, but let's be honest, not by much and considering being psychic is one of those pesky little things that mark you as a mutant & 2nd class citizen in both societies, would say it's a pretty good bet many of those will be 'burb natives (possibly even criminals, or working on the edge of law).

Not all of which will have joining the military as a venue for inclusion/social acceptaance/respect. In fact, considering i have seen little to nothing in the books about CS use of anything beside Psi-Stalkers - feel free to correct me if i'm wrong - i would one's chances if anything else are not exactly so hot.

That said, yes, i do think the CS might have human psychics or dog-boys in sufficient numbers in the 'burbs to make any such shenanigans anything but a cakewalk.

Keep in mind that every Dog Boy has at least 1 Sensitive psychic power (barring odd mutations).
As of 102 PA, there were 2.4 million Dog Boys in the Coalition States.
With 23 Sensitive Psychic Powers available as of the RGMG,
IF we assume random distribution,
that's (check my math!) 103,347.826 Dog Boys who have Astral Projection.

Figuring for mutations...
4% would have NO Sensitive powers, so that's -4133.91304)
4% would have TWO Sensitive powers, so that's... crap... +179.73535?
4% would have 4 Psychic Sensitive powers... this is getting mathy... so.. that's like... +12,521.7391 more...?

Anyway, it's a LOT.

Granted, they'd be spread out over all of CS territory, perhaps beyond, and some of them have to sleep, but it's still a crazy crapton of Astral Projectors!

Yeah, the doggos make a crapton of difference, no denying and must admit never stopped to seriously check on their numbers - among other things because having actual millions of dog boys would entail some social consequences that might really sidetrack things if seriously considered.

The matter of their distribution and actual effective use for such a role is the key issue.

Overall i tend to think of things in terms of coverage and priorities - the efficiency of the CS's arrangements being very strongly geared towards security of key areas against terrorist acts and espionage, but tightness against the occasional bit of contraband at spots, not so much, specially when one accounts for the occasional crooked officer in a well-placed position getting paid by the black market, when not an outright leading figure of it (like Lyboc, if memory tricks me not). Still risky and occasionally messy but possible for even a small band of smart low-level PCs that plays their cards right.

Posted: **Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:31 am**

SolCannibal wrote: Still risky and occasionally messy but possible for even a small band of smart low-level PCs that plays their cards right.

THIS is what it comes down to, in my view.
There are ways that CS security--whatever it is--could be bypassed, but that's not something that we can assume that PCs have necessarily done in the past:
It's an adventure hook.

Posted: **Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:26 am**

Aside from whatever % of psi-hounds have astral projection, there is the question of whether they have the ISP to astral project for long shifts.

RUE might help with this since it went a little BTS-y in allowing ISP to be siphoned off ley lines, but that would require psi-hounds to stay near lines to fuel their indefinite activation of the power.

Do we have a power for sending ISP to your psychic friends or am I thinking of Nightbane?

I seem to recall ley lines wreck the senses of psi-stalkers, not sure about psi-hounds... either way it does beg a couple questions though...

1) if you have an innate power to sniff out the supernatural, do you take it with you when astral projecting?

2) if so, while projecting, is the power impeded when your ASTRAL BODY is near a ley line, or when your ASTRAL BODY is near a ley line?

Of course, another question becomes: just what exactly can astral projectors due to impede each other, besides raise a "there's a spy in our midst" warning to others?

Astral punch each other? How hard is that when you're zipping around at mach speeds, able to pass though barriers which you can't see through? Easy to escape a tail, hard to track a tail. Imagine one astral guy trying to trail another through a maze where you can never see through the walls but can step through them like air. If someone makes a turn while out of sight, you won't know which wall to go through next to find them...

Astral grapple? Palladium basically doesn't try to explore grappling.

Throw some Mind Bolts? Not generally the realm of Psi-Hounds/Psi-Stalkers, so you're sort of limited to the lesser number of other super psis.

Use a psi-sword? Maybe that's an instant kill since it's MD vs SDC, although you should have fewer opportunities to close into melee range before someone can jump out of view by sinking under the nearest floor.

Ectoplasm should really come into its own here, if possible, since it might be ideal for grappling each other in a realm without weapons.

Posted: **Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:48 pm**

Axelmania wrote:Ectoplasm should really come into its own here, if possible, since it might be ideal for grappling each other in a realm without weapons.

Especially as the Astral is described, in a Nightbane book, as being filled with clouds of it. I wrote a Rifter article with powers to Command Ectoplasm and Harden Ectoplasm.

My solution for a lot of this is a bit simpler... force fields. While the CS does not, in 101 PA, have the technology to put them on robots or anything portable, they CAN put them on very large structures... build them in to the walls of Chi-Town, use them to seal off sections, things like that.

So, to teleport into Chi-Town, or do a lot of the other neat tricks that would make a fortress city a tempting target, you have to get through the force fields that protect it. Send a few LRMs, and you can crack the field... but it's going to take getting past Chi-Town air defense to do that, and you're going to have to sustain the assault long enough to get through the field, in and out. And that's a big deal assault.

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