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Axelmania wrote:I dunno, dragons are devious creatures, perhaps that's all a ruse to get Lazlons to trust him until he can steal power and negotiate a high position in the cult.

Axelmania wrote:I dunno, dragons are devious creatures, perhaps that's all a ruse to get Lazlons to trust him until he can steal power and negotiate a high position in the cult.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Axelmania wrote:I dunno, dragons are devious creatures, perhaps that's all a ruse to get Lazlons to trust him until he can steal power and negotiate a high position in the cult.

But there's no reason to think that is the case.

SolCannibal wrote:Nah, would have taken power long ago if it were really his kind of gig.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:But there's no reason to think that is the case.

Axelmania wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:Nah, would have taken power long ago if it were really his kind of gig.

He's already taken some power, but sometimes it pays to be the power behind the throne, like how Merlin does it.

Axelmania wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:But there's no reason to think that is the case.

Except for general wisdom regarding dragons.

SolCannibal wrote:General wisdom regarding dragons is what makes this improbable. The great majority of them rule quite openly with little to no stealth or subterfuge. And the few that use some subterfuge - Saber Lasar - does so more on the matter of his nature, not of rulership, what he's quite blunt and open about, might be said.

SolCannibal wrote:Plato as written in the books shows no signs of either attitude - in fact, he doesn't even show any signs of leadership beyond being a classic "wise sage/advisor" figure archetype, might be said - so, going by what official sources give us on his figure, it appears far more probable he's one of those dragons that do not care much about "lording over their lessers" and such.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think New Lazlo is an afterthought even Kevin's forgotton exists by now.

Axelmania wrote:A world book called "Offshoots" focusing on some kind of alliance between New Lazlo / Magestar on the frontiers would be pretty cool. Maybe they could be linked between several Circles of Travel allowing regular trade between each other so they aren't as wholly dependent on their parent cities.

Hotrod wrote:

Mack wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Actually....I suddenly wonder if this isn't why Kevin keeps putting off writing anything about Lazlo forever. If that's the case he kind of wrote himself into a Corner. Erin Tarin from the first day has done nothing but Praise Lazlo as a bastion of tolerance, respect, learning and peaceful commerse with never a bad thing to say. So subconiously he CAN'T write Lazlo into Rifts because if he did he'd have to shatter the dream. The Lazlo book cannot exist beucase Lazlo cannot exist, he cant' write Utopias, so he'd have to shatter the dream that Lazlo IS all it's said to be. Because then Erin Tarn would be wrong or a fool and he can't have that!

One of the freelance writers (I forget which) said something similar. To create drama, tension, etc, you need to have something dark to contrast the light against. He said he didn't know how to write a Lazlo book without including some sort of dark underside. Otherwise he felt it would be a pretty boring book.

See Rifter 58 for an excellent article on Lazlo.

I'm moving this into its own thread to keep from derailing the England campaign discussion, because I think it's worth exploring how to write up Lazlo in a compelling way that's consistent with Rifts. Lazlo is described in fawning terms by Erin Tarn in most of the books, in spite of the fact that, in Kevin's own words, "There are no utopias in Rifts."

In truth, the cracks in the facade of perfection are already beginning to show. In Aftermath, Lazlo is described as being inundated with refugees, rife with unemployment, and plagued by crime. I'd play this angle up.

When I was a kid, I once read in Mad Magazine: "How far can you open your mind before your brains fall out?" This would be the spiritual core of how I'd write Lazlo. By taking in so many, so fast, it's a would-be melting pot utopia that's quickly degenerating in prosperity, security, and identity. It's got shiny and clean parts surrounded by slums and refugee camps that are messy, dirty, and often dangerous. I'd describe Lazlo as a city undergoing rapid cultural, social, and demographic change with three main groups and philosophies vying for control.

First, there's the pre-Tolkeen crowd in power that's all about high-minded idealism and trying to save the world. They've hiked taxes way up and are trying to provide all kinds of aid both within the city and abroad. Erin Tarn is a staunch supporter of this group, but their support is waning, and they may get voted out of power soon without allying themselves with one of the other two power blocks.

Second, there's the refugee population. Thanks to Lazlo's efforts, they aren't starving and desperate anymore. However, they are very poor, mostly unemployed, crammed into slums and refugee camps, and reliant on meager relief supplies while the citizens of Lazlo enjoy luxuries in comfortable, shiny buildings just a mile or two away. Many among the refugees that resent and even hate the Lazlo leadership for doing nothing while the CS crushed Tolkeen. Others resent the citizens of Lazlo who won't hire them and look down on them. Most hate the Coalition with a passion and want to see Lazlo take a more aggressive stance against the Prosek regime. Their leaders are veterans of the Tolkeen war, and some locals who live and work closely with this group are coming around to their point of view.

Finally, there's a growing group of reactionary Pre-Tolkeen residents that's all about putting Lazlo First and wants the refugees re-settled somewhere far away. For the most part, this group is isolationist and consists of a broad mix of humans and debees. They're willing to support the fight against existential threats like the Xiticix, Four Horsemen, Mechanoids, and the Minion War, but otherwise prefer to keep out of foreign affairs. This line of thinking has spread to some of the folks in power, as Plato himself has recently aligned himself with this faction, splitting the Council of Learning.

Anyway, if I were to write up Lazlo, that's how I would do it. What do you think? How would you write up Lazlo?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think New Lazlo is an afterthought even Kevin's forgotton exists by now.

dreicunan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think New Lazlo is an afterthought even Kevin's forgotton exists by now.

Someday he'll remember about it and mention how they were all eaten by Tyranids Xiticix.

SolCannibal wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think New Lazlo is an afterthought even Kevin's forgotton exists by now.

Someday he'll remember about it and mention how they were all eaten by Tyranids Xiticix.

Actually, the city is located in Lower Michigan, so i would guess even Northern Gun would be eaten first by the bugs. That said they are relatively close to Detroit, that has a situation similar to Calgary, so becoming Demon Chow during Megaverse in Flames would be a feasible way to discreetly phase it out of continuity.

dreicunan wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think New Lazlo is an afterthought even Kevin's forgotton exists by now.

Someday he'll remember about it and mention how they were all eaten by Tyranids Xiticix.

Actually, the city is located in Lower Michigan, so i would guess even Northern Gun would be eaten first by the bugs. That said they are relatively close to Detroit, that has a situation similar to Calgary, so becoming Demon Chow during Megaverse in Flames would be a feasible way to discreetly phase it out of continuity.

That was actually part of the joke. "They were all eaten by Tyranids" originates with WH40K and how they basically wrote the Squats (Space Dwarves) out of existence because even though the army worked really well at the Epic level, it didn't work so well (in their view, anyways) at the standard WH40K table top level. The Squat homeworlds were located in an area of the Imperium that would have meant that a whole lot of other worlds would have had to have gotten eaten first before the Tyranids got to them.

SolCannibal wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

dreicunan wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think New Lazlo is an afterthought even Kevin's forgotton exists by now.

Someday he'll remember about it and mention how they were all eaten by Tyranids Xiticix.

Actually, the city is located in Lower Michigan, so i would guess even Northern Gun would be eaten first by the bugs. That said they are relatively close to Detroit, that has a situation similar to Calgary, so becoming Demon Chow during Megaverse in Flames would be a feasible way to discreetly phase it out of continuity.

That was actually part of the joke. "They were all eaten by Tyranids" originates with WH40K and how they basically wrote the Squats (Space Dwarves) out of existence because even though the army worked really well at the Epic level, it didn't work so well (in their view, anyways) at the standard WH40K table top level. The Squat homeworlds were located in an area of the Imperium that would have meant that a whole lot of other worlds would have had to have gotten eaten first before the Tyranids got to them.

In WH40K i guess there's a bit of an excuse with genestealer infiltration (maybe) and travelling the Warp is a weird thing, one might "jump the gun" and arrive on target without appearing in the systems in the path.

Kind of like if one or more Xiticix hives opened a huge rift in the middle of New Lazlo to attack. Theoretically possible though very improbable afaik, having never heard of the bugs opening rifts, just using available ones at most.

It's weird either way, (a hive fleet's "warp shadow" messing interestellar travel and communications might alert systems crossing of its passing, so ignoring them could mean losing the opportunity for a surprise attack, but then maybe not, as i said, the Warp ain't linear) but i guess fits a little better with Tyranids setup, in that the Hive Fleets' path is guided by major genestealer infestations working as a beacon marking where to strike and gulp all lifeforms.

.....and i don't even know anymore what i'm rambling about actually.

Gonna leave it at that, guess someone else might get weird ideas of their own from "40K x Rifts" or "Xiticix x Tyranids" tactical comparisons.

Orin J. wrote:Apparently trying to directly discuss new lazlo is so confusing it causes people to end up with the wrong universe for a frame of reference...

Hotrod wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:
In WH40K i guess there's a bit of an excuse with genestealer infiltration (maybe) and travelling the Warp is a weird thing, one might "jump the gun" and arrive on target without appearing in the systems in the path.

Kind of like if one or more Xiticix hives opened a huge rift in the middle of New Lazlo to attack. Theoretically possible though very improbable afaik, having never heard of the bugs opening rifts, just using available ones at most.

It's weird either way, (a hive fleet's "warp shadow" messing interestellar travel and communications might alert systems crossing of its passing, so ignoring them could mean losing the opportunity for a surprise attack, but then maybe not, as i said, the Warp ain't linear) but i guess fits a little better with Tyranids setup, in that the Hive Fleets' path is guided by major genestealer infestations working as a beacon marking where to strike and gulp all lifeforms.

.....and i don't even know anymore what i'm rambling about actually.

Gonna leave it at that, guess someone else might get weird ideas of their own from "40K x Rifts" or "Xiticix x Tyranids" tactical comparisons.

There's also the fact that the galaxy is essentially a flat disc, and the Tyranids aren't necessarily moving along the galactic plane; there's canon art showing them coming from "above' the galactic plane.

dreicunan wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:
In WH40K i guess there's a bit of an excuse with genestealer infiltration (maybe) and travelling the Warp is a weird thing, one might "jump the gun" and arrive on target without appearing in the systems in the path.

Kind of like if one or more Xiticix hives opened a huge rift in the middle of New Lazlo to attack. Theoretically possible though very improbable afaik, having never heard of the bugs opening rifts, just using available ones at most.

It's weird either way, (a hive fleet's "warp shadow" messing interestellar travel and communications might alert systems crossing of its passing, so ignoring them could mean losing the opportunity for a surprise attack, but then maybe not, as i said, the Warp ain't linear) but i guess fits a little better with Tyranids setup, in that the Hive Fleets' path is guided by major genestealer infestations working as a beacon marking where to strike and gulp all lifeforms.

.....and i don't even know anymore what i'm rambling about actually.

Gonna leave it at that, guess someone else might get weird ideas of their own from "40K x Rifts" or "Xiticix x Tyranids" tactical comparisons.

There's also the fact that the galaxy is essentially a flat disc, and the Tyranids aren't necessarily moving along the galactic plane; there's canon art showing them coming from "above' the galactic plane.

Yeah, getting to the Squat homeworlds still would have involved moving skipping past a bunch of other systems regardless of direction, though less than lateral movement.

Remember that Tyranids do not travel through the warp. If anyone is curious, look up "Narvhal." It is actually an interesting concept to port over into 3 galaxies (you may not want to keep the whole "our method of travel causes earthquakes in your system before we arrive" bit, however).

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I really don't think Lazlo was ever said to receive a large number of Refugees. Actually barring some transported by Rifts, the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way and Chi-Town the other way make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal. The books discribed the Refugees all fleeing into the northwest and that Lazlo was prevented from receiving that many refugees.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I really don't think Lazlo was ever said to receive a large number of Refugees. Actually barring some transported by Rifts, the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way and Chi-Town the other way make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal. The books discribed the Refugees all fleeing into the northwest and that Lazlo was prevented from receiving that many refugees.

So only Holmes is able to pass through the Hives with relative impunity?
I call shenanigans!

SolCannibal wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I really don't think Lazlo was ever said to receive a large number of Refugees. Actually barring some transported by Rifts, the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way and Chi-Town the other way make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal. The books discribed the Refugees all fleeing into the northwest and that Lazlo was prevented from receiving that many refugees.

So only Holmes is able to pass through the Hives with relative impunity?
I call shenanigans!

I wouldn't go that far, i think Nekira's point would be that, while far from nonexistent, the number of refugees going the way of Lazlo is probably not as large as waves towards other areas like New West, the Magic Zone, Kingsdale, Merctown, Pecos and other places due to distances and the close presence of multiple xiticix hives, specially of concern for larger groups, that might more easily turn into targets for the bugs.

Though Holmes being able to pass through the Hives with relative impunity is worth calling shenanigans no matter the circunstances anyway.

SolCannibal wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I really don't think Lazlo was ever said to receive a large number of Refugees. Actually barring some transported by Rifts, the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way and Chi-Town the other way make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal. The books discribed the Refugees all fleeing into the northwest and that Lazlo was prevented from receiving that many refugees.

So only Holmes is able to pass through the Hives with relative impunity?
I call shenanigans!

I wouldn't go that far, i think Nekira's point would be that, while far from nonexistent, the number of refugees going the way of Lazlo is probably not as large as waves towards other areas like New West, the Magic Zone, Kingsdale, Merctown, Pecos and other places due to distances and the close presence of multiple xiticix hives, specially of concern for larger groups, that might more easily turn into targets for the bugs.

Though Holmes being able to pass through the Hives with relative impunity is worth calling shenanigans no matter the circunstances anyway.

Warshield73 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I really don't think Lazlo was ever said to receive a large number of Refugees. Actually barring some transported by Rifts, the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way and Chi-Town the other way make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal. The books discribed the Refugees all fleeing into the northwest and that Lazlo was prevented from receiving that many refugees.

So only Holmes is able to pass through the Hives with relative impunity?
I call shenanigans!

I wouldn't go that far, i think Nekira's point would be that, while far from nonexistent, the number of refugees going the way of Lazlo is probably not as large as waves towards other areas like New West, the Magic Zone, Kingsdale, Merctown, Pecos and other places due to distances and the close presence of multiple xiticix hives, specially of concern for larger groups, that might more easily turn into targets for the bugs.

Though Holmes being able to pass through the Hives with relative impunity is worth calling shenanigans no matter the circunstances anyway.

I'm calling out the word impunity. I've heard this many times but to this day it doesn't fit. When I go to a place with impunity I don't drive my car at walking pace, I don't let my friends get picked off one by one and not fire back. Holmes march through Xiticix territory is often described as if he shot in and out without a scratch but that's not what is described in the book.

I think the reason this trip is impossible for civilians, and one of the reasons I find Holmes trip so unbelievable, is the near superhuman discipline of his troops. When faced with constant buzzing of the xiticix and their near constant snatching of fellow CS soldiers that they somehow held together knowing that if they fire back at all everyone dies.

Where is the Vasquez from Aliens who when told to NOT fire here heavy weapon inside the giant fusion reactor still does it, thus dooming them all. Civilians could never hold together during this, they would scatter and shoot back with whatever they had and they would all die as soon as they did. Also, another reason Lazlo would not get refugees this way is the difference in terrain (much more difficutl travel areas between Lazlo and Tolkeen), time of year (the weather would kill off all but the most prepared traveler), and finally the political map of the area which would have any refugee going either through Lake Superior (which was probably crawling with CS navy units assuming you could make it to the coast through either the CS lines or the Duluth hive territory) or you would have to go North between Duluth and Big Falls hive and into Ontario and then around CS Iron Heart.to me the easy part of that trip is between the hives.

While I'm not a fan of SoT I do love Xiticix invasion and I have had lots of fun using that book in my own games and at convention games.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:barring some transported by Rifts,
the fact the Xitixic Hivelands lay between Tolkieen and Lazlo one way
and Chi-Town the other way
make refugees fleeing to Lazlo suicidal.

Hotrod wrote:In my head-canon, Holmes made a deal with the Vanguard to keep his forces alive/fed through the hivelands.

Fenris2020 wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I'm calling out the word impunity. I've heard this many times but to this day it doesn't fit. When I go to a place with impunity I don't drive my car at walking pace, I don't let my friends get picked off one by one and not fire back. Holmes march through Xiticix territory is often described as if he shot in and out without a scratch but that's not what is described in the book.

I think the reason this trip is impossible for civilians, and one of the reasons I find Holmes trip so unbelievable, is the near superhuman discipline of his troops. When faced with constant buzzing of the xiticix and their near constant snatching of fellow CS soldiers that they somehow held together knowing that if they fire back at all everyone dies.

Where is the Vasquez from Aliens who when told to NOT fire here heavy weapon inside the giant fusion reactor still does it, thus dooming them all. Civilians could never hold together during this, they would scatter and shoot back with whatever they had and they would all die as soon as they did. Also, another reason Lazlo would not get refugees this way is the difference in terrain (much more difficutl travel areas between Lazlo and Tolkeen), time of year (the weather would kill off all but the most prepared traveler), and finally the political map of the area which would have any refugee going either through Lake Superior (which was probably crawling with CS navy units assuming you could make it to the coast through either the CS lines or the Duluth hive territory) or you would have to go North between Duluth and Big Falls hive and into Ontario and then around CS Iron Heart.to me the easy part of that trip is between the hives.

While I'm not a fan of SoT I do love Xiticix invasion and I have had lots of fun using that book in my own games and at convention games.

It's kind of impossible to believe for those of us who are veterans, as well.
Something's coming to kill me? Trigger-time.
Something's coming at my battle-buddy? Trigger-time.

Fenris2020 wrote:And they had enough stuff to have fought their way through without suffering more casualties than they did (yes, some friends of mine and I did some number-crunching and a bit of play-through... he might even have lost FEWER people if they'd been unloading, given how much they're shown to have when they came back and attacked Tolkeen after being out in the wilderness all that time without re-supply.

Fenris2020 wrote:Would have been impossible to stay out that long without a hefty amount of cannibalism.

Warshield73 wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I'm calling out the word impunity. I've heard this many times but to this day it doesn't fit. When I go to a place with impunity I don't drive my car at walking pace, I don't let my friends get picked off one by one and not fire back. Holmes march through Xiticix territory is often described as if he shot in and out without a scratch but that's not what is described in the book.

I think the reason this trip is impossible for civilians, and one of the reasons I find Holmes trip so unbelievable, is the near superhuman discipline of his troops. When faced with constant buzzing of the xiticix and their near constant snatching of fellow CS soldiers that they somehow held together knowing that if they fire back at all everyone dies.

Where is the Vasquez from Aliens who when told to NOT fire here heavy weapon inside the giant fusion reactor still does it, thus dooming them all. Civilians could never hold together during this, they would scatter and shoot back with whatever they had and they would all die as soon as they did. Also, another reason Lazlo would not get refugees this way is the difference in terrain (much more difficutl travel areas between Lazlo and Tolkeen), time of year (the weather would kill off all but the most prepared traveler), and finally the political map of the area which would have any refugee going either through Lake Superior (which was probably crawling with CS navy units assuming you could make it to the coast through either the CS lines or the Duluth hive territory) or you would have to go North between Duluth and Big Falls hive and into Ontario and then around CS Iron Heart.to me the easy part of that trip is between the hives.

While I'm not a fan of SoT I do love Xiticix invasion and I have had lots of fun using that book in my own games and at convention games.

It's kind of impossible to believe for those of us who are veterans, as well.
Something's coming to kill me? Trigger-time.
Something's coming at my battle-buddy? Trigger-time.

Fenris2020 wrote:And they had enough stuff to have fought their way through without suffering more casualties than they did (yes, some friends of mine and I did some number-crunching and a bit of play-through... he might even have lost FEWER people if they'd been unloading, given how much they're shown to have when they came back and attacked Tolkeen after being out in the wilderness all that time without re-supply.

Yeah I don't think this holds up. The numbers of Xiticix in this region are too great and the speed of the slowest vehicles on Holmes group is so slow over that terrain. It was clear that by not attacking the bugs that they did not come out in force to stop him. As soon as you start swatting bugs you get that wonderful death smell all over you and then they just start coming in such numbers that a group this size could never hold out.

Fenris2020 wrote:Would have been impossible to stay out that long without a hefty amount of cannibalism.

This I think is the biggest problem. He was out for too long to be without food resupply.

To me this point actually disproves your assertion that Holmes could have fought his way through. If he had fought the Xiticix, and even if he had taken few losses which I think is not likely,he would have had so little left in terms of armor and ammunition that don't believe he could have defeated Tolkeen in the way he did.