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Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:42 pm
by Library Ogre
Rogerd wrote:Going to ask the question here, but is it available in pdf yet?
The sneak peak is, but no sign of the actual book on DT.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:34 pm
by kiralon
I think only the first the first ed stuff is available in pdf
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:16 pm
by Whiskeyjack
Almost every 2nd edition book is available on Drive Thru.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:28 am
by Rogerd
Mark Hall wrote:Rogerd wrote:Going to ask the question here, but is it available in pdf yet?
The sneak peak is, but no sign of the actual book on DT.
Here's hoping it is available soon.
As I just do not have the space for physical books anymore.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:51 pm
by Stone Gargoyle
Rogerd wrote:Mark Hall wrote:Rogerd wrote:Going to ask the question here, but is it available in pdf yet?
The sneak peak is, but no sign of the actual book on DT.
Here's hoping it is available soon.
As I just do not have the space for physical books anymore.
I think they give it a requisite amount of months before selling it on pdf. They make more money selling actual books.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:40 am
by Rogerd
Stone Gargoyle wrote:They make more money selling actual books.
I cannot for the life of me see how that can be true.
You have to get it printed, bind it, ship it etc. Wang it in pdf and there is none of that and all profit without the surplus on top.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:30 pm
by Stone Gargoyle
Rogerd wrote:Stone Gargoyle wrote:They make more money selling actual books.
I cannot for the life of me see how that can be true.
You have to get it printed, bind it, ship it etc. Wang it in pdf and there is none of that and all profit without the surplus on top.
Well, maybe hey just think they do. I do know I prefer actual books to pdfs personally.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:10 pm
by Father Goose
Rogerd wrote:Stone Gargoyle wrote:They make more money selling actual books.
I cannot for the life of me see how that can be true.
You have to get it printed, bind it, ship it etc. Wang it in pdf and there is none of that and all profit without the surplus on top.
Palladium Books is a publishing company. They have all the equipment for publishing already, so it really is better for them to publish print books rather than pdfs.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:53 pm
by Library Ogre
Father Goose wrote:Rogerd wrote:Stone Gargoyle wrote:They make more money selling actual books.
I cannot for the life of me see how that can be true.
You have to get it printed, bind it, ship it etc. Wang it in pdf and there is none of that and all profit without the surplus on top.
Palladium Books is a publishing company. They have all the equipment for publishing already, so it really is better for them to publish print books rather than pdfs.
They send out to a printer (i.e. they must pay the printer); they don't do it in-house. A published book these days starts as a PDF that the printer then prints and binds.
I know lots of folks prefer printed books; I like them for table reference. But PDFs are going to be cheaper (though not as cheap as some people seem to think they should be).
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:10 pm
by Father Goose
Personally, I think all the books need to be available in both formats for greatest exposure.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:08 pm
by Rogerd
Father Goose wrote:Palladium Books is a publishing company. They have all the equipment for publishing already, so it really is better for them to publish print books rather than pdfs.
You're not going to print the pdf that is my point, just make it available at DTRPG.
Mark Hall wrote:But PDFs are going to be cheaper (though not as cheap as some people seem to think they should be).
Exactly this, as one printed you then have to ship which incurs extra cost which some people in far off countries, or hard to deliver places, are not willing to pay. But getting it in pdf from DTRPG negates all of this.
So I just do not understand why it has not been made available - it just makes zero sense.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:12 pm
by Stone Gargoyle
Mark Hall wrote:They send out to a printer (i.e. they must pay the printer); they don't do it in-house. A published book these days starts as a PDF that the printer then prints and binds.
I know lots of folks prefer printed books; I like them for table reference. But PDFs are going to be cheaper (though not as cheap as some people seem to think they should be).
Okay, I did not know that. In that case a pdf is cheaper to sell. So why doesn't Palladium just market their own pdfs? Why use Drive Thru RPG?
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:25 pm
by Library Ogre
Stone Gargoyle wrote:Mark Hall wrote:They send out to a printer (i.e. they must pay the printer); they don't do it in-house. A published book these days starts as a PDF that the printer then prints and binds.
I know lots of folks prefer printed books; I like them for table reference. But PDFs are going to be cheaper (though not as cheap as some people seem to think they should be).
Okay, I did not know that. In that case a pdf is cheaper to sell. So why doesn't Palladium just market their own pdfs? Why use Drive Thru RPG?
Probably cost of setting up and maintaining a store v. cost of giving DTRPG a cut. I can't find the cut DTRPG takes out of every sale off-hand (I know they told me when I set up my book), but when you compare it to the out-of-pocket for a server and a store, plus maintenance on the store, it's probably cheaper and/or easier.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:33 pm
by Stone Gargoyle
Mark Hall wrote:Stone Gargoyle wrote:Okay, I did not know that. In that case a pdf is cheaper to sell. So why doesn't Palladium just market their own pdfs? Why use Drive Thru RPG?
Probably cost of setting up and maintaining a store v. cost of giving DTRPG a cut. I can't find the cut DTRPG takes out of every sale off-hand (I know they told me when I set up my book), but when you compare it to the out-of-pocket for a server and a store, plus maintenance on the store, it's probably cheaper and/or easier.
They already have a store for their books. How hard would it be to add a way to download pdfs to their existing store?
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:02 pm
by kiralon
I don't think its a technical issue holding it back, its probably more likely to be the worry of the pdf's being pirated. Kevin seemed to be worried about that in days past and i'm guessing still does.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:04 pm
by Prysus
Greetings and Salutations. I'll start with this disclaimer: I am not a representative of Palladium Books and do not claim to have insider knowledge. I also have not self-published, and have little insights into such a field. My knowledge comes primarily from being on these boards for a while, and talks with Palladium when I've had the chance.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:Mark Hall wrote:Stone Gargoyle wrote:Okay, I did not know that. In that case a pdf is cheaper to sell. So why doesn't Palladium just market their own pdfs? Why use Drive Thru RPG?
Probably cost of setting up and maintaining a store v. cost of giving DTRPG a cut. I can't find the cut DTRPG takes out of every sale off-hand (I know they told me when I set up my book), but when you compare it to the out-of-pocket for a server and a store, plus maintenance on the store, it's probably cheaper and/or easier.
They already have a store for their books. How hard would it be to add a way to download pdfs to their existing store?
I'll say when releasing the
Palladium Fantasy Interactive Character Sheet, that I believe one of the things that caused a delay was setting up the store to handle that kind of product. This, to me, is an indication that prior to that they didn't have such a setup.
In addition, I believe there's a potential issue of traffic. By that, I mean that downloading a file (or several) takes up more resources than simply browsing a website, or even making an electronic purchase where the user doesn't require to download ~20MB per item they just purchased. I don't know Palladium's current setup or how often people buy their PDF, but this could add up and possibly would require an upgrade beyond what they're currently equipped to handle. I don't know a lot about this stuff. I do have a website, and that's kind of the impression I get ... if my site ever had enough traffic to really worry about such things.
Setting that aside though, I think there are also other benefits to using DriveThruRPG. DriveThruRPG probably has better traffic for this type of product (I mean, that is their specialty and all). So by having it there, I'd consider there to be a higher chance a random shopper may find their product and buy it. Meanwhile, if you go to Palladium's site directly, you probably already know what you want. I'd guess that it's more like setting up a personal website to selling on Amazon. Sure, you might get all the profit from your personal site, but you'll probably get more sales by going through Amazon even if you lose a bit of the profits.
Also, when Palladium first started releasing PDF, they did so with their old, out-of-print material. These files were NOT in PDF format, and I believe DriveThruRPG helped turn some of those into PDF products (not sure how much they helped, and also possible I'm misremembering). As stated earlier, I don't believe their store was setup for purchase and download options. So with DriveThruRPG helping convert files and having the setup, this seems like a simple solution to start off. At this point, it may also be just as easy to continue on as is instead of trying to restructure things.
There's also the possibility of Palladium having signed a contract of some sorts. I'm not saying they did. I genuinely have no idea. As stated in the disclaimer, I have little experience in such things. My brain just considers such possibilities. But, if they did, they may still be under contract.
Again, I'm not saying all of these things are true. These are just things I've considered. So when people ask: Why? I think of options, but I'm not claiming any of them are facts.
Father Goose wrote:Personally, I think all the books need to be available in both formats for greatest exposure.
Agreed. And Palladium does, in general, release their products in both formats. From my observations, their releases tend to be about 2 years after initial physical copy release. So, following that pattern, Garden of the Gods should be released sometime around January 2022 (earlier if we're lucky).
This is based on Rifter PDF, as well as others such as (most) Megaversal Insider offers. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that Palladium feels that 2 years is the window that their physical books will sell the best. After that point, release of the PDF will have a minimal impact on their physical sales. This is, of course, just my theory.
I was going to respond to a couple of other things with my speculations, but I've decided to stop there. Too much guesswork probably isn't a good thing. Thanks to everyone for their time and hope you all have great days. Farewell and safe journeys.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:18 am
by Rogerd
kiralon wrote:I don't think its a technical issue holding it back, its probably more likely to be the worry of the pdf's being pirated. Kevin seemed to be worried about that in days past and i'm guessing still does.
It is the 21st Century, there is nothing you can do to stop that.
Releasing in paper is not going to stop it either, that is what handheld OCR stuff is for. In fact one of the most beautiful rpg's in existence, Eoris Essence has incredibly over complicated and flawed rules - the digital art is amazing and second to none! It was only available in paper copy. Did not stop someone using an OCR scanner on that. Palladium needs to get with the times!
Prysus wrote:I suspect, but cannot confirm, that Palladium feels that 2 years is the window that their physical books will sell the best. After that point, release of the PDF will have a minimal impact on their physical sales. This is, of course, just my theory.
Just to be clear, I am not having a go at you when I say this.
If this is the case, that is just dumb stance on Palladium's part. If it is 2022 when it comes out I will have lost interest by that point and wouldn't really care about reading it anyway. It is no wonder with this mentality they're slowly dying as brand and as a company. As much as oldsters like me want paper copies, once you have kids and pets, space is at a premium and such things are luxury. Plus, to get the younger generation involved, they all want electronic stuff nowadays anyway.
In short we want pdf's released as soon as possible. Exposure.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:17 am
by Library Ogre
Rogerd wrote:Prysus wrote:I suspect, but cannot confirm, that Palladium feels that 2 years is the window that their physical books will sell the best. After that point, release of the PDF will have a minimal impact on their physical sales. This is, of course, just my theory.
Just to be clear, I am not having a go at you when I say this.
If this is the case, that is just dumb stance on Palladium's part. If it is 2022 when it comes out I will have lost interest by that point and wouldn't really care about reading it anyway. It is no wonder with this mentality they're slowly dying as brand and as a company. As much as oldsters like me want paper copies, once you have kids and pets, space is at a premium and such things are luxury. Plus, to get the younger generation involved, they all want electronic stuff nowadays anyway.
In short we want pdf's released as soon as possible. Exposure.
I'd also wager (again, like Prysus, we're speculating; I have no actual knowledge of Palladium's financial position, practices, or the reason for their choices) that they may wind up needing to get a certain number of books printed, and they want to make sure those sell, because they're a sunk cost. Palladium has long made a big deal out of how well their books are bound, and so switching to something like Lulu for POD would impact that perception of their work. Cutting into the sales of their physical books means they have to store the stuff until it can be sold or Grab Bagged.
These are a few things to consider, assuming they are making financial and not emotional choices (they may, themselves, prefer physical books and want to encourage those, for example)
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:20 am
by Stone Gargoyle
I din't like the idea of only getting pdfs because they are vulnerable to file corruption and possible erasure if my computer hard drive crashes and has to be reformatted or such. I have had that happen many times. And while Drive Thru RPG keeps track of your downloads and you only have to buy a pdf once, it is still a hassle.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:28 am
by Prysus
Rogerd wrote:Prysus wrote:I suspect, but cannot confirm, that Palladium feels that 2 years is the window that their physical books will sell the best. After that point, release of the PDF will have a minimal impact on their physical sales. This is, of course, just my theory.
Just to be clear, I am not having a go at you when I say this.
If this is the case, that is just dumb stance on Palladium's part. If it is 2022 when it comes out I will have lost interest by that point and wouldn't really care about reading it anyway. It is no wonder with this mentality they're slowly dying as brand and as a company. As much as oldsters like me want paper copies, once you have kids and pets, space is at a premium and such things are luxury. Plus, to get the younger generation involved, they all want electronic stuff nowadays anyway.
In short we want pdf's released as soon as possible. Exposure.
Greetings and Salutations. And I don't take any of that personally. Furthermore, I'll do one better and say: Looks like I was incorrect. While not fun to say, it's important to do so.
Rifter 84 was released November 2019, and has had a PDF for a while now. In the Face of Death was (May? 2020), and that's coming out this weekend.
Maybe what I said was accurate a few years ago, maybe I'm just remembering their Megaversal Insider timeline (until Bestiary) and got confused. Either way, currently, what I said is not true.
While I still suspect there's an intentional delay (and that is just speculation based on threads and comments from way back when fans were trying to convince Palladium to release PDF at all), my timeline was off. So there's still hope. Maybe Christmas? Farewell and safe journeys.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:14 am
by Rogerd
Mark Hall wrote:I'd also wager (again, like Prysus, we're speculating; I have no actual knowledge of Palladium's financial position, practices, or the reason for their choices) that they may wind up needing to get a certain number of books printed, and they want to make sure those sell, because they're a sunk cost. Palladium has long made a big deal out of how well their books are bound, and so switching to something like Lulu for POD would impact that perception of their work. Cutting into the sales of their physical books means they have to store the stuff until it can be sold or Grab Bagged.
These are a few things to consider, assuming they are making financial and not emotional choices (they may, themselves, prefer physical books and want to encourage those, for example)
Preferring to sell physical books over pdf's is plain dumb. As selling books incurs greater cost once you start adding transport costs on top, such that it becomes unfeasible to pay if you are out in the sticks (boonies) as that will increase delivery costs quite substantially sometimes. Plus if you are buying multiple books this may well take it out of dimensions thus incurring even greater charges.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:I din't like the idea of only getting pdfs because they are vulnerable to file corruption and possible erasure if my computer hard drive crashes and has to be reformatted or such. I have had that happen many times. And while Drive Thru RPG keeps track of your downloads and you only have to buy a pdf once, it is still a hassle.
True, but physical copies are also prone to damage -coffee or beer stains being the most likely. As well as theft, which also applies to pdf's. Thing is though, pdf's are easier to transport to your gaming groups around a table. But counterpoint is also that physical copies are easier to hand around. All that said though, pdf's are easier to store, require less physical space.
If you're anything like me, and are a collector of rpg's, that having hundreds of books around the house is not feasible. Don't get me wrong, there is a thread on rpg.net, where I know of at least one person with game room containing four or five hundred, and I mean this literally, of physical books in his game room. It is amazing.
If you want me to find the thread, shoot me a PM and I'll find the thread in question.
Unfortunately, I just do not have the space, and that is why pdf's are preferable. Plus, we need the younger generation involved, and they are all about electronic stuff.
Prysus wrote:Rifter 84 was released November 2019, and has had a PDF for a while now. In the Face of Death was (May? 2020), and that's coming out this weekend.
Maybe what I said was accurate a few years ago, maybe I'm just remembering their Megaversal Insider timeline (until Bestiary) and got confused. Either way, currently, what I said is not true.
While I still suspect there's an intentional delay (and that is just speculation based on threads and comments from way back when fans were trying to convince Palladium to release PDF at all), my timeline was off. So there's still hope. Maybe Christmas? Farewell and safe journeys.[/justify]
Many thanks for your reply, that is indeed much better news, and indeed good to know.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:21 am
by Library Ogre
Rogerd wrote:Preferring to sell physical books over pdf's is plain dumb. As selling books incurs greater cost once you start adding transport costs on top, such that it becomes unfeasible to pay.
As we said, we're speculating; none of this may be true. I know a bit about PDF publishing through DTRPG, because I've done it through their sister site, DTFiction, but I also don't know, for certain, what constrains Palladium or what their reasons might be.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:47 am
by Rogerd
Mark Hall wrote:As we said, we're speculating; none of this may be true. I know a bit about PDF publishing through DTRPG, because I've done it through their sister site, DTFiction, but I also don't know, for certain, what constrains Palladium or what their reasons might be.
Okay thanks Mark, that is helpful.
Re: Garden of the Gods has gone to press !
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:53 pm
by Rogerd
So with Christmas coming up, is there any chance, or updates on whether this will be released in pdf for the festive period?