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Catheters.

ShadowLogan wrote:

PSI-Lence wrote:I doubt a GB really needs to be (or had been planed to be) in full scale direct combat for that long, for one it has the ranged advantage, meaning enemies need to be willing to rush it's position, under heavy fire that is destroying their heavy armor, a good portion of the enemy forces is going to see the battle turning against them before they are even in range, I'd expect most targets to flee the fight.

While the GB has a range advantage there are things that can mitigate that advantage (with no defined scenario):
-Magic (teleport, stealth, force field/armor/invulnerability)
-terrain (blocking line of sight)
-speed (a 300mph flyer could close the gap in ~15seconds to come within mini-missile range, surviving that run is an issue of course, less time if you don't mind the penalties for shooting beyond effective range, slower ground platforms like the CS GB-Killer will take longer)
-the Boom Gun is not the king of range, that goes to missiles (while Mini are very common in Rifts, SRM and MRM are still a thing though I do believe MRM are more common than SRM*), and there are some gun (energy or projectile) that can match/better it in range. So with the right assets an attacker can negate or even flip the range advantage
-raw armor (there are things the BG can't kill quickly)

That is why i specified 'designed for" since it's pre-rifts, magic, psionics, dragons etc are not even a consideration

-1 flyer having to fly into the GB under fire I'd expect to get hit at least once, sustaining heavy damage, 3-4 flyers have much better odds, but since the GB was not designed to be a solitary unit I'd expect NEMA to have enough counter aircraft to deal with it, or enough GB's in a formation that aircraft would be needed(GB killer being recent, is also not a consideration when he armor was designed), although I do concede that pre-rifts they would probably be more likely to encounter jet aircraft going well over 300mph, although, that furthers my point, anything putting GB units in that much risk, is not going to be solved by giving them more ammo

-short, medium and long range missiles do all beat the boom gun for range, but even post rifts, weapons platforms that carry those munitions, have a pretty limited number of shots, and finding pre-rifts examples seems even smaller (that could be survivorship bias of ones that didn't last to the current era (especially ones that were abandoned after the payload was spent)

-for hills I'll ignore the GB carrier in free quebec since that is post rifts, I can see GB's being deployed on a hill or ridge to hold it, I doubt they would be sent to take one, once again they were designed to be used in conjunction with other bots/vehicles by what was one of the most well funded armed forces

- the only reasonable per-rifts examples I can think of that a GB can't kill quickly are things that are probably out of their range anyway, like naval warships, any type of super bunker is where NAMA would use it's own long range missles to soften up, before sending in troops backed by GB firepower, also I' expect NEMA to go into full scale war with anything that had the budget to buy many GB resistant targets or enough firepower to counter a wave of troops


The GB was designed as one of many units with varied roles, not for the lone adventurer to fight off waves of Xiticix and that is where I see the bureaucracy taking over, even if GB rounds cost $1 you'd be talking a difference of $900 per unit, over what tens of thousands of units? maybe 100 thousand or more? you also need o have bases that are meant to resupply GB's having hundreds of thousands of rounds on hand.

I'm sure someone would look at GB survivability rate and see that any engagement in which a GB was destroyed, would see that 'running out of ammo' is a very low percentage, hardly more than anecdotal, and thus not worth the cost redesigning the unit to carry 10x the ammo (or designing the unit to carry that much in the first place since they would probably have run thousands of computer simulations before even making one)

glitterboy2098 wrote:which is actually a very good example that the 1000 round load is a mistake.. as the fatboy's description states that they expanded the ammo supply by putting bins all over its rotund body.. which indicates it was meant to be a major *increase* in ammunition (with 400 rounds per boomgun) rather than the decrease it became due to RUE. it is worth noting that the regular triax glitterboy retains the 100 round capacity of the RMB's standard GB, even after post-RUE reprintings of WB5.

I agree the RUE-GB should be viewed as a typo. All I am saying is that the good for "1,000" attacks claim you made is not unheard of for PC level equipment, it's rare but not impossible. I noticed the payload for the other Triax GBs to had not changed, and the X700 was packing them in anyway it could.

PSI-Lence wrote:-1 flyer having to fly into the GB under fire I'd expect to get hit at least once, sustaining heavy damage, 3-4 flyers have much better odds, but since the GB was not designed to be a solitary unit I'd expect NEMA to have enough counter aircraft to deal with it, or enough GB's in a formation that aircraft would be needed(GB killer being recent, is also not a consideration when he armor was designed), although I do concede that pre-rifts they would probably be more likely to encounter jet aircraft going well over 300mph, although, that furthers my point, anything putting GB units in that much risk, is not going to be solved by giving them more ammo

I don't expect them to have to deal with only 1 flyer. My point is that the speed of a flyer is going to be such that the GB is going to have a very narrow widow to engage. 300mph is toward the high end for a PA (some go faster, but not many), but for the Fixed Wing aircraft that is on the low end.

PSI-Lence wrote:-short, medium and long range missiles do all beat the boom gun for range, but even post rifts, weapons platforms that carry those munitions, have a pretty limited number of shots, and finding pre-rifts examples seems even smaller (that could be survivorship bias of ones that didn't last to the current era (especially ones that were abandoned after the payload was spent)

While the typical payload might not match up to the Boom Gun on these vehicles, it doesn't necessarily have to if it can be coupled with other aspects. Post-Rifts vehicles exist with these launchers, and are much easier to manufacture than Glitterboys (only a few powers actually can produce new suits). A missile isn't as cheap as a GB round, but then missiles always lose out to gun-based projectiles in terms of cost. You could have these missile launchers empty their racks, then return for reload (in effect they do damage w/o taking any, theoretically) and repeat.

Moving beyond missiles, GAW (MercOps) sells Howitzer's and Mortars that would be more cost effective than missiles, and out range the GB's BG to boot.

PSI-Lence wrote:-for hills I'll ignore the GB carrier in free quebec since that is post rifts, I can see GB's being deployed on a hill or ridge to hold it, I doubt they would be sent to take one, once again they were designed to be used in conjunction with other bots/vehicles by what was one of the most well funded armed forces

It isn't just hills, you also have forests to obscure movement or even buildings in a urban environment. Just because you have the top of a ridge or hill or building doesn't mean you automatically get a perfect vantage point as there could be other hill/building/ridges that can obscure you line of sight.

PSI-Lence wrote:- the only reasonable per-rifts examples I can think of that a GB can't kill quickly are things that are probably out of their range anyway, like naval warships, any type of super bunker is where NAMA would use it's own long range missles to soften up, before sending in troops backed by GB firepower, also I' expect NEMA to go into full scale war with anything that had the budget to buy many GB resistant targets or enough firepower to counter a wave of troops

That we know of you mean. In the pre-Rifts Earth it is hard to see adversaries not looking to having options to counter the GB (in post-Rifts Earth we see the CS developed the Skelebot and Variable Freq. Laser, and the "GB-Killer" PA).

Am I the only one who thinks GB's are over-hyped and unless you are talking MiO versions, not as good as people think?

Honestly unless you TW Boost, I don't really see them lasting long enough in a fight to worry if it is 100 or 1000 rnds.

If you compare one GB (25M cr) to 12 SAMAS (2M cr each) OR 25 Flying Titans (1M cr each) we all know how this fight goes - because we have seen jet vs tank, even helicopter vs tank.

The fact that the head is a small target but the gun isn't? The gun is 175MDC; the 770 main body is almost meaningless, because - no back up weapon. The weapon itself does 3D6x10 MDC - which sounds great and the range is just ridiculous; well until you realise a clean shot at that range is unlikely in any terrain. There is a flying mode called NoE (nap of the earth) for a reason. Flying power armour would almost always have cover closing range. And given most weapons (SAMAS has 4000' and most hand-held have 2000' - 4000') don't need to close the full 2 miles.

Anyhow just my opinion, sorry to all those who love the GB - as a group we have played Rifts since it came out (played TMNT and Robotech before Rifts) and no one has ever even wanted to play a GB pilot. As an adventuring group they just don't appeal. Unless you have a bunch of them and repair facilities they are just not practical.

hup7 wrote:Am I the only one who thinks GB's are over-hyped and unless you are talking MiO versions, not as good as people think?

Honestly unless you TW Boost, I don't really see them lasting long enough in a fight to worry if it is 100 or 1000 rnds.

If you compare one GB (25M cr) to 12 SAMAS (2M cr each) OR 25 Flying Titans (1M cr each) we all know how this fight goes - because we have seen jet vs tank, even helicopter vs tank.

If you need 12 SAMs or 25 Flying Titans to take out one Robot Vehicle, it's a pretty darned decent robot vehicle.

The fact that the head is a small target but the gun isn't? The gun is 175MDC; the 770 main body is almost meaningless, because - no back up weapon.

The rules say nothing about GBs not being able to carry backup weapons. They just don't have any built-in.
In our games, they usually carried a vibro-sword or two, and an extra energy weapon, as soon as they could afford to purchase them (or if they could get them in starting gear)

The weapon itself does 3D6x10 MDC - which sounds great and the range is just ridiculous; well until you realise a clean shot at that range is unlikely in any terrain. There is a flying mode called NoE (nap of the earth) for a reason. Flying power armour would almost always have cover closing range. And given most weapons (SAMAS has 4000' and most hand-held have 2000' - 4000') don't need to close the full 2 miles.

In a lot of terrain, the GB could theoretically arc their shots, but generally speaking, you're entirely correct here. 2 miles is great, but not often available unless you're in a desert or plains or something.
OR if your GB is on higher terrain than his targets.
OR if the target is flying high enough for the GB to get a shot.

Anyhow just my opinion, sorry to all those who love the GB - as a group we have played Rifts since it came out (played TMNT and Robotech before Rifts) and no one has ever even wanted to play a GB pilot. As an adventuring group they just don't appeal. Unless you have a bunch of them and repair facilities they are just not practical.

GBs are a very good OCC and/or piece of equipment, but a lot of people like to pretend they're unstoppable or invincible, and they're far from it.
Likewise, people on the other side like to act as if GB's are garbage, and they're not that either.
They're really pretty well balanced: really powerful in certain circumstances, and pretty useless in others.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The fact that the head is a small target but the gun isn't? The gun is 175MDC; the 770 main body is almost meaningless, because - no back up weapon.

The rules say nothing about GBs not being able to carry backup weapons. They just don't have any built-in.
In our games, they usually carried a vibro-sword or two, and an extra energy weapon, as soon as they could afford to purchase them (or if they could get them in starting gear)

since you get a weapon per WP with the OCC, you can actually start with a pretty decent arsenal if you pick right.

i have a lv1 GB pilot i ran in a game years ago that started with C-18 laser pistol, an L-20 pulse rifle, and an NG-101 railgun. the latter of which tended to see use as the suit's secondary weapon.
i then used some of the starting equipment money to buy an SDC flamethrower (which i fluffed as a copy of the M9E1-7) to give battle field options. the railgun and flame thrower nozzle had slings attached to the suit so they could be released without losing them, and their ammo containers were attached to tie down points on the back of the suit.

Mack wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Per the U.S. DOD the Mach 7 railgun firing a 23 lbs, 18" long round at 100 yards away sounds like a .30-06.

If the sabot discards immediately after exiting the muzzle then the "flechettes", which should darts or they're not flechettes, should spread wildly as they're depicted as flat pieces (of metal?). If they were flechettes they would deflect less as they wouldn't tumble, collide and create lift planes that take them off in odd directions. In order to get them to consistently produce the same amount of damage the blades would have to have a programmed sabot that would discard when it got to a certain distance from the target (it would kind of explain the need for all the optics in the art).

They're not flechettes.

It fires a single flechette which releases 200 slugs. (RUE p72--Don't look at me, I didn't write the thing.)

That isn't a flechette that is a casing. A flechette is a dart neither the case nor the blades are flechettes. (Obviously still looking at you. STARE )

Fenris2020 wrote:

Mack wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Per the U.S. DOD the Mach 7 railgun firing a 23 lbs, 18" long round at 100 yards away sounds like a .30-06.

If the sabot discards immediately after exiting the muzzle then the "flechettes", which should darts or they're not flechettes, should spread wildly as they're depicted as flat pieces (of metal?). If they were flechettes they would deflect less as they wouldn't tumble, collide and create lift planes that take them off in odd directions. In order to get them to consistently produce the same amount of damage the blades would have to have a programmed sabot that would discard when it got to a certain distance from the target (it would kind of explain the need for all the optics in the art).

They're not flechettes.

It fires a single flechette which releases 200 slugs. (RUE p72--Don't look at me, I didn't write the thing.)

It is a problem when someone doesn't know what they're writing or talking about; clearly, the author doesn't know anything about flechettes or slugs.
It's a worse problem when they don't research something they don't know about.

Research? WTH is that? Oh wait it is a skill and someone failed their roll... critically.

[] :
quote="ShadowLogan"-1 flyer having to fly into the GB under fire I'd expect to get hit at least once, sustaining heavy damage, 3-4 flyers have much better odds, but since the GB was not designed to be a solitary unit I'd expect NEMA to have enough counter aircraft to deal with it, or enough GB's in a formation that aircraft would be needed(GB killer being recent, is also not a consideration when he armor was designed), although I do concede that pre-rifts they would probably be more likely to encounter jet aircraft going well over 300mph, although, that furthers my point, anything putting GB units in that much risk, is not going to be solved by giving them more ammo[/quote]
I don't expect them to have to deal with only 1 flyer. My point is that the speed of a flyer is going to be such that the GB is going to have a very narrow widow to engage. 300mph is toward the high end for a PA (some go faster, but not many), but for the Fixed Wing aircraft that is on the low end.

PSI-Lence wrote:-short, medium and long range missiles do all beat the boom gun for range, but even post rifts, weapons platforms that carry those munitions, have a pretty limited number of shots, and finding pre-rifts examples seems even smaller (that could be survivorship bias of ones that didn't last to the current era (especially ones that were abandoned after the payload was spent)

While the typical payload might not match up to the Boom Gun on these vehicles, it doesn't necessarily have to if it can be coupled with other aspects. Post-Rifts vehicles exist with these launchers, and are much easier to manufacture than Glitterboys (only a few powers actually can produce new suits). A missile isn't as cheap as a GB round, but then missiles always lose out to gun-based projectiles in terms of cost. You could have these missile launchers empty their racks, then return for reload (in effect they do damage w/o taking any, theoretically) and repeat.

Moving beyond missiles, GAW (MercOps) sells Howitzer's and Mortars that would be more cost effective than missiles, and out range the GB's BG to boot.

PSI-Lence wrote:-for hills I'll ignore the GB carrier in free quebec since that is post rifts, I can see GB's being deployed on a hill or ridge to hold it, I doubt they would be sent to take one, once again they were designed to be used in conjunction with other bots/vehicles by what was one of the most well funded armed forces

It isn't just hills, you also have forests to obscure movement or even buildings in a urban environment. Just because you have the top of a ridge or hill or building doesn't mean you automatically get a perfect vantage point as there could be other hill/building/ridges that can obscure you line of sight.

PSI-Lence wrote:- the only reasonable per-rifts examples I can think of that a GB can't kill quickly are things that are probably out of their range anyway, like naval warships, any type of super bunker is where NAMA would use it's own long range missles to soften up, before sending in troops backed by GB firepower, also I' expect NEMA to go into full scale war with anything that had the budget to buy many GB resistant targets or enough firepower to counter a wave of troops

That we know of you mean. In the pre-Rifts Earth it is hard to see adversaries not looking to having options to counter the GB (in post-Rifts Earth we see the CS developed the Skelebot and Variable Freq. Laser, and the "GB-Killer" PA).[/quote]


to start I should correct I quoted myself saying "designed for" instead of "planed for" but to me they are basically synonymous

but keeping with that, high speed aircraft against GB's are not what they are meant to fight, and not something that having more ammo would solve, so there is no reason for them to carry more ammo to deal with aircraft.

for launchers i do not care about anything POST rifts, GB's were not designed post rifts, an alien intelligence can kill GB's too, I'm talking about a pencil pusher at NEMA dictation budget reasons to not give them 1000 rounds
give every short to long rang missile launcher you want 10,000 missiles if you want, but it wont change anything, if they have enough firepower to kill the GB, then the GB having 1000 rounds on it wont help it survive.

the hills ledges etc are still MEANINGLESS GB's are designed to be used where the range, and firepower is effective, anything you describe where the GB can be killed, only furthers my point, having more ammo does not increase their survival rate

Pre-rifts it's not hard to see adversaries that would like to have something that can counter U.S. military aircraft carriers and nuclear subs either, but they don't. citing the CS for anything that can stand up to a GB when the CS is working off of many of NEMA's own plans (like the samas) and with effectively unlimited military budget? can you find any pre-rift government that could oppose NEMA? Japan also has GB's Triax has advanced tech, but even combines it seems very unlikely that even at their peak they could withstand a conflict with NEMA by sheer numbers

to re-iterate the important part GB's were designed to be one part of a much larger military where the difference of 900 more rounds would not be likely to effectively increase their survival rate, but drastically increase strain on supply lines moving hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo to any resupply depots, if any opposing force has the range/damage required to kill a GB, is probably going to prioritize he GB and have to kill it quickly (before other units can take them out, or the GB can retreat) meaning the difference is a GB will be killed with 950 unspent rounds of ammo, instead of 50 rounds of unspent ammo.

GB's are effectively modern day tanks, they are not for week long solo combat excursions (what a GB OCC does POST rifts does not factor in to their design, so a solo rambo GB shooting 100 rounds in a few minutes does not factor in)

I do not think the GB was intended to be anti air when built. It seams like a replacement for a MBT. If a aircraft is not loosing long range missiles are odds a GB can wait for it to hit range and take out a wing with called shot.

Had an amusing thought regarding the GB's limited ammo supply of 100 rounds. Since the GB fires from a stationary position, you could build a massive ammo drum completely separate from the armor. Basically, the GB walks up to it, unplugs his normal ammo belt and plugs into the massive drum.

It'd only be useful for firing from a pre-planned, fixed position. But as a separate drum it could easily hold a ridiculously large amount of rounds... like 10,000. OK, 10,000 is too much. But a 1,000 round external drum is workable.

I could see something like that used by the Free Quebec Legions. Where a Reload Team places a few massive drums at significant defensive points. If you wanted to get fancy, the drum could be mounted on small hover platform so the operator just tells it where to go.

Mack wrote:Had an amusing thought regarding the GB's limited ammo supply of 100 rounds. Since the GB fires from a stationary position, you could build a massive ammo drum completely separate from the armor. Basically, the GB walks up to it, unplugs his normal ammo belt and plugs into the massive drum.

It'd only be useful for firing from a pre-planned, fixed position. But as a separate drum it could easily hold a ridiculously large amount of rounds... like 10,000. OK, 10,000 is too much. But a 1,000 round external drum is workable.

I could see something like that used by the Free Quebec Legions. Where a Reload Team places a few massive drums at significant defensive points. If you wanted to get fancy, the drum could be mounted on small hover platform so the operator just tells it where to go.

I like it!

7PSI-Lence
Can you please fix the formatting on your last post to properly credit the poster's statements you copied, it makes it much easier to read.

As far as I'm concerned the 1000 round payload of the USA-G10 is a typo/misprint. 100 or 1000 rounds, it doesn't change the GB's vulnerabilities.

While I do not question the USA-G10 GB was a pre-Ritfs design, but that period is pretty sparse in terms of details when you think about it. The USA-G10 had to have some versatility to adapt to the new opponents it would face in its 300 year-ish operation period or it would have been abandoned and replaced (and we wouldn't have 8 manufacturers* of the suit and its variants post 110PA). I do agree the GB is best used in a mixed force structure, but that does not mean the GB will be the king of the overall battlefield.

Terrain will be an issue that can work for or against the unit, the problem is terrain is very variable. One place might not offer the height needed to create the same amount of line of sight as another location and the GB (or anyone really) can not count on having the best possible viewing position. (it might require airborne, satellites being unavailable Post-Rifts, support to provide targeting information on location but that still isn't a guarantee they have line of sight).


*

Blue_Lion wrote:I do not think the GB was intended to be anti air when built. It seams like a replacement for a MBT. If a aircraft is not loosing long range missiles are odds a GB can wait for it to hit range and take out a wing with called shot.

Given the range of the Boomgun is 11,000ft, it's ability to function as an anti-air platform would be limited to low flying targets. That and Japan developed an AA version ("Hawkeye" WB8 pg140-2), and it has a main gun with shorter range than a BG, but it packs a decent quantity of Medium Range Missiles (and Mini). Said text equates the G10-GB to" be used in place of traditional tanks and armored vehicles." It also notes the suits vulnerability to low flying but high speed fliers (anchoring to fire the BG seems to be the main reason). So yeah, it seems unlikely it was intended for anti-air.

Mack wrote:Had an amusing thought regarding the GB's limited ammo supply of 100 rounds. Since the GB fires from a stationary position, you could build a massive ammo drum completely separate from the armor. Basically, the GB walks up to it, unplugs his normal ammo belt and plugs into the massive drum.

It'd only be useful for firing from a pre-planned, fixed position. But as a separate drum it could easily hold a ridiculously large amount of rounds... like 10,000. OK, 10,000 is too much. But a 1,000 round external drum is workable.

I could see something like that used by the Free Quebec Legions. Where a Reload Team places a few massive drums at significant defensive points. If you wanted to get fancy, the drum could be mounted on small hover platform so the operator just tells it where to go.

I've had the same thought (I thought something like that would be obvious given some power armor rail guns can be setup as crew served weapons I really could not see why the USA-G10 using its RG-14 couldn't). You could even theoretically mount the drum on the alternate firing shoulder of the GB ala something like the Taurus with its twin cannons (only one is the ammo drum), ironically size wise it would not be to dissimilar to RG-14 in size (see a previous post on last page). Or use another Power Armor or Robot Drone in place of the Hover vehicle.

Does anyone know off hand which GBs are printed as having the 1000 round capacity? I know the Chromium Guardsman in the Chaos Earth Main Book does.

ShadowLogan wrote:7PSI-Lence
Can you please fix the formatting on your last post to properly credit the poster's statements you copied, it makes it much easier to read.

As far as I'm concerned the 1000 round payload of the USA-G10 is a typo/misprint. 100 or 1000 rounds, it doesn't change the GB's vulnerabilities.

While I do not question the USA-G10 GB was a pre-Ritfs design, but that period is pretty sparse in terms of details when you think about it. The USA-G10 had to have some versatility to adapt to the new opponents it would face in its 300 year-ish operation period or it would have been abandoned and replaced (and we wouldn't have 8 manufacturers* of the suit and its variants post 110PA). I do agree the GB is best used in a mixed force structure, but that does not mean the GB will be the king of the overall battlefield.

Terrain will be an issue that can work for or against the unit, the problem is terrain is very variable. One place might not offer the height needed to create the same amount of line of sight as another location and the GB (or anyone really) can not count on having the best possible viewing position. (it might require airborne, satellites being unavailable Post-Rifts, support to provide targeting information on location but that still isn't a guarantee they have line of sight).


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Spoiler:

Free Quebec
Triax (acquired from Free Quebec)
Silver Republics in South America (and a variant to boot)
New Navy (IIRC, I know they have a small contingent of the suits)
Archie-3 (who distributes "new" suits occasionally, plus his NEMA Sleepers equipment IINM)
Freedom Space Station (in orbit, variants to boot)
Republic of Japan (variants to boot)
Republicans (Stockpile as they stay in the shadows)
Blackmarket (in NA, produces their own variant. I'm not counting this one as I don't have their SB and don't consider them a single entity)

I thought it was correct, but I don't know how to fix it, it should be easy to tell I was replying to you, since you are the only one that replied to my points all with what essentially breaks down to "GB's can be killed" which only furthers my point, so I don't understand what you are trying to get at.

I don't know how many times you want me to say that "having more bullets" would not have seen an increase in survivability of GB's PRE-RIFTS (outside of maybe anecdotal stories)
POST-RIFTS is a modification was going to be made you'd expect to see them listed (like the Triax variation having a built in laser etc) none of them mention hauling around a cargo carrier with the extra 900+ rounds, and they have the same physical dimensions of the GB with the 100 round drum

GB's DO have versatility in that they can pick up and use other weapons built for large borgs and smaller robot vehicles, I don't see what your point about that is though, as it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said, and you already mentioned other variants... again, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said. for some reason you're arguing that "the GB will be the king of the overall battlefield." when I never said that either, what I said is that the GB would be a pile of shiny scrap metal before it could burn through 1000 rounds.

again with terrain for some reason? yes a GB is not suited for hand to hand combat in the back of a Volkswagen (it's a very uncomfortable place) or deep dense forests, and the ones that did, probably did not survive (and yet once more it would not be due to lack of ammo), ones that used them on open terrain or in mixed units would have a much higher survivability rate.

for manufacturers you have
Free Quebec, using Pre-rifts manufactories and designs, using them in a mixed army as intended (IE modification not required)
Triax that recently got the information needed to make them, and DID modify them
silver republic i don't remember well enough, but as you say they have variations
New Navy having a "small contingent" is not he same as having manufacturing, but I assume a NAVY would be using a mixed army
ARCHIE 3 who has no imagination and reproduces exact copies (of course there wont be modifications)
space station... Not. On. Earth, also modified for space (put your redundant argument about terrain here)
Japan...where it was used in a mixed military and variations on it to widen the roles it could serve
republican stockpile...and? a stockpile is something hidden, not used, and not a manufactory
Black Market... that can't even fully replicate the armor to Pre-Rifts specs

and none of that matters, because all that means, is that if a GB get's destroyed, more can be built, or recovered from stockpiles.

for some bizarre reason, you seem to think, that I think "GB's are so cool, they can do anything and are the best armor yo", when what I said was GB's are built for a very specific role, and that role would not be not helped by having ten times the initially listed ammo.

why would people still use them? because when a dozen scuzzy bandits show up at your town being in a GB increases your survivability more than wearing a T-shirt and jeans? and if 4 dozen bandits with medium range missiles park 10 miles outside of your town? I'll say it one (LAST) time, having more bullets, does not increase the survivability. a GB against those odds can have 50,000 rounds, it will still be turned into confetti

Curbludgeon wrote:Does anyone know off hand which GBs are printed as having the 1000 round capacity? I know the Chromium Guardsman in the Chaos Earth Main Book does.

Other than the RUE version in Rifts, none that I know of. I found a reference to the 400 round capacity in FQ (pg83), the most previous reprint before that AFAIK is WB8 and they still have it at 40 rounds. The only unit AFAIK with a greater than 100 round capacity is the Triax2 Fatboy GB variant (being a variant and not the historical one I don't think this counts for what you are looking for).

PSI-Lence wrote:I thought it was correct, but I don't know how to fix it, it should be easy to tell I was replying to you, since you are the only one that replied to my points all with what essentially breaks down to "GB's can be killed" which only furthers my point, so I don't understand what you are trying to get at.

It makes it easier to read. While right now it is fairly obvious, several weeks or even later it might not be. Also at a glance one does not easily see where my reply ends and your reply begins, or if someone else responds (later) to something in your post that is actually me but directed at you.

PSI-Lence wrote:I don't know how many times you want me to say that "having more bullets" would not have seen an increase in survivability of GB's PRE-RIFTS (outside of maybe anecdotal stories)
POST-RIFTS is a modification was going to be made you'd expect to see them listed (like the Triax variation having a built in laser etc) none of them mention hauling around a cargo carrier with the extra 900+ rounds, and they have the same physical dimensions of the GB with the 100 round drum

I do not advocate for the 1000 round drum. My posts toward you are centered around the GB's apparent range advantage it has and how it can be mitigated and has nothing to do with the payload.

The cargo carrier is an attempt to show (one possible way on) HOW you could load out the GB with 1,000 rounds NOT if it is practical or beneficial to do so.

PSI-Lence wrote:and none of that matters, because all that means, is that if a GB get's destroyed, more can be built, or recovered from stockpiles.

It matters because if you have people producing them in Post-Rifts period then their is a demand for the suit and the suit is still viable in this period. I doubt anyone would be producing GBs if they where not viable.

PSI-Lence wrote:why would people still use them? because when a dozen scuzzy bandits show up at your town being in a GB increases your survivability more than wearing a T-shirt and jeans? and if 4 dozen bandits with medium range missiles park 10 miles outside of your town? I'll say it one (LAST) time, having more bullets, does not increase the survivability. a GB against those odds can have 50,000 rounds, it will still be turned into confetti

The Bandit model though fails when you consider that is not how FQ deploys them in their war with the CS. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd wager the NGR, the Republic of Japan, Freedom Station all use them more like FQ. I'm not sure how the New Navy uses the ones in their inventory, or the Silver Republics. Archie-3 distributes them, but doesn't actually use them per say. The Republicans and the NEMA Sleeper Army maybe in hiding, but I'd wager they would use them similar to FQ or NGR or even the RoJ.

Mack wrote:Had an amusing thought regarding the GB's limited ammo supply of 100 rounds. Since the GB fires from a stationary position, you could build a massive ammo drum completely separate from the armor. Basically, the GB walks up to it, unplugs his normal ammo belt and plugs into the massive drum.

It'd only be useful for firing from a pre-planned, fixed position. But as a separate drum it could easily hold a ridiculously large amount of rounds... like 10,000. OK, 10,000 is too much. But a 1,000 round external drum is workable.

I could see something like that used by the Free Quebec Legions. Where a Reload Team places a few massive drums at significant defensive points. If you wanted to get fancy, the drum could be mounted on small hover platform so the operator just tells it where to go.

Quebecois Glitterboy ground "transport". Large tracked vehicle with four ammo drums, original idea was one huge drum with four plug ins but the loading mechanism was too complex and expensive. The four glitterboys are at the four corners on turn tables 5hat are designed to have the claws and pylon deployed into them and still allow 360 degree rotation. The vehicle is piloted by a fifth glitterboy from an open cockpit.

I can't help but feel that at some point it's easier to just put boom guns on a giant box full of ammo =P

(of course, since when has that ever stopped this game from doing things?)

Shark_Force wrote:I can't help but feel that at some point it's easier to just put boom guns on a giant box full of ammo =P

(of course, since when has that ever stopped this game from doing things?)

And strap unmanned Glotterboys to the outside for armor.

All held together with duct tape and ratchet straps.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Curbludgeon wrote:Does anyone know off hand which GBs are printed as having the 1000 round capacity? I know the Chromium Guardsman in the Chaos Earth Main Book does.

Other than the RUE version in Rifts, none that I know of. I found a reference to the 400 round capacity in FQ (pg83), the most previous reprint before that AFAIK is WB8 and they still have it at 40 rounds. The only unit AFAIK with a greater than 100 round capacity is the Triax2 Fatboy GB variant (being a variant and not the historical one I don't think this counts for what you are looking for).

PSI-Lence wrote:I thought it was correct, but I don't know how to fix it, it should be easy to tell I was replying to you, since you are the only one that replied to my points all with what essentially breaks down to "GB's can be killed" which only furthers my point, so I don't understand what you are trying to get at.

It makes it easier to read. While right now it is fairly obvious, several weeks or even later it might not be. Also at a glance one does not easily see where my reply ends and your reply begins, or if someone else responds (later) to something in your post that is actually me but directed at you.

Spoiler:

To edit the post, when Signed in go to the Post and click Edit and the end of the post, it is next to the reply button on all the posts.

That will take you to a different page (resembles the Full Post). At the beginning of my post put in brackets [] :
quote="ShadowLogan"

Now scroll down to the end of my part of the post, and put in brackets [] the following:
/quote

PSI-Lence wrote:I don't know how many times you want me to say that "having more bullets" would not have seen an increase in survivability of GB's PRE-RIFTS (outside of maybe anecdotal stories)
POST-RIFTS is a modification was going to be made you'd expect to see them listed (like the Triax variation having a built in laser etc) none of them mention hauling around a cargo carrier with the extra 900+ rounds, and they have the same physical dimensions of the GB with the 100 round drum

I do not advocate for the 1000 round drum. My posts toward you are centered around the GB's apparent range advantage it has and how it can be mitigated and has nothing to do with the payload.

The cargo carrier is an attempt to show (one possible way on) HOW you could load out the GB with 1,000 rounds NOT if it is practical or beneficial to do so.

PSI-Lence wrote:and none of that matters, because all that means, is that if a GB get's destroyed, more can be built, or recovered from stockpiles.

It matters because if you have people producing them in Post-Rifts period then their is a demand for the suit and the suit is still viable in this period. I doubt anyone would be producing GBs if they where not viable.

PSI-Lence wrote:why would people still use them? because when a dozen scuzzy bandits show up at your town being in a GB increases your survivability more than wearing a T-shirt and jeans? and if 4 dozen bandits with medium range missiles park 10 miles outside of your town? I'll say it one (LAST) time, having more bullets, does not increase the survivability. a GB against those odds can have 50,000 rounds, it will still be turned into confetti

The Bandit model though fails when you consider that is not how FQ deploys them in their war with the CS. I'm not 100% sure, but I'd wager the NGR, the Republic of Japan, Freedom Station all use them more like FQ. I'm not sure how the New Navy uses the ones in their inventory, or the Silver Republics. Archie-3 distributes them, but doesn't actually use them per say. The Republicans and the NEMA Sleeper Army maybe in hiding, but I'd wager they would use them similar to FQ or NGR or even the RoJ.

you seem to still completely miss the point I was trying to make, whether that was my failure, or yours for thinking I was advocating for GB's in anyway, other than merely pointing out their role, you keep hamming on the same points incessantly which have absolutely nothing to do with mine, same as trying to formulate ways they could carry 1000 rounds has nothing to do with my point either, which makes quoting me in responses as redundant as quoting me, and replying with your favourite flavour of ice cream

I'm not going to bother trying to explain it again since I can't do it any more basic than I already have that more bullets, does not increase survivability (if it did soldiers would be given 50 mags to carry)