Forums of the Megaverse®

MadGreenSon wrote:

Mack wrote:However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Mack wrote:However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

MadGreenSon wrote:Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Mack wrote:Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Likewise, I've had a concept in mind for a TW works as a merc version of the CS Skelebot Specialist, only with TW-enhanced Triax 'bots.

Blue_Lion wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Mack wrote:However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Throw in a high megas for access to high level spells, and they could really start getting nasty.

Well you did not remove the heart/leaking nuke core so the robots golem powers allow it to full heal and get back up in a day.

Mack wrote:Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Warshield73 wrote:I have never had anyone play a Psi-Tech but they seem underpowered compared to most of the other OCCs.

Mack wrote:Likewise, I've had a concept in mind for a TW works as a merc version of the CS Skelebot Specialist, only with TW-enhanced Triax 'bots.

Blue_Lion wrote:Throw in a high megas for access to high level spells, and they could really start getting nasty.

Blue_Lion wrote:Well you did not remove the heart/leaking nuke core so the robots golem powers allow it to full heal and get back up in a day.

Warshield73 wrote:I'm not going to let a PC do this but you just gave me a great idea for an evil TW antagonist.

Warshield73 wrote:This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I don't use England because I don't like the weird take on Arthur. Well, I do use millenium trees. Those are cool.

I hate Rifts Japan because Rifts Earth was more interesting with Japan being what was originally described: a small cluster of islands where nothing of note happens.
BUT I did use the material in Rifts Japan to update the Foot Clan for Rifts Earth, so I can't say I've never used it.

I dislike New West because it's way too cartoony, and it's overpowerd compared to other places, as if all the gun manufacturers were holding back their best toys for the most sparsely populated area. Also, I object to the idea that somebody out west is going to be THAT much better with a pistol than somebody in the East or anywhere else.
Oh, and they boosted the already overpowered dinosaurs from the first printing RMB up to be on par with dragons, without giving any reason WHY these non-supernatural, non-augmented animals would be so powerful.
Also, New West is kind of the epitome of where Rifts (IMO) went terribly wrong, scrapping original ideas that fit the post-apocalypse setting (vampires in Mexico, bug men up north, tentacle critters and monsters on Atlantis, Dinosaurs in Florida, etc.) in favor of the much, much cheesier "let's just take modern cliches of each area, and update them for Rifts. So... Mounties in Alaska, Cowboys & Indians out West, Knights in England, Ninjas & Samurai in Japan, MDC Kangaroos in Australia, MDC lobsters in Main, Magic cheese and wine in France, etc. etc. etc.
(Okay, I made the last two up.)

I dislike Spirit West for the same reasons why I dislike New West, PLUS there's a weird kind of racist Noble Savage take on Native Americans in it that rubs be the wrong way, the epitome of which is the Laser Bow... which I also hate for reasons of science and logic.
(If you want to know more, just Search for any number of rants I've made about the Laser Bow in the past.)

Hotrod wrote:I agree that Rifts is at its best when it's novel and keeps any cultural/historical cliches with M.D.C. to a minimum. That said, I also think it's possible to work creatively with a lot of that content or build up other material and content that makes a region more interesting and compelling. My side project expanding Africa is such an attempt. My preference is to try to look forward and create a future history/culture that's different than what has come before for a given region.

I should also mention that there are ways in which it's quite possible to look forward and back simultaneously in ways that are novel and interesting. Rifts Madhaven is a great example of this, combining a natural extension of the setting (Mystic Knights of the White Rose) in a twisted and novel take on what we might expect. My only disappointment about that book is its lack of treasure and incentive for people to go there; it would have been nice to see some interesting rewards put into the book.

I'm hard-pressed to think of any world books that I wouldn't ever use *something* from. Even books that lean hard on cultural cliches usually have something that might be useful.

I suppose a bigger obstacle to using a given world book is the isolation of that setting. I think this matters more in practice than the cultural cliche issues. The China books, Australia, and Japan are good examples of this isolation. If there's not much in the way of trade or interaction with the rest of the world, then why would a GM and/or players ever go there? Super-isolated places need some kind of strong incentive to get players and GMs interested, or else they seem to become irrelevant to most of the fans. At least, that's been my observation.

All this said, the one Rifts book that just can't see myself using any part of is Mutants in Orbit. It doubles down on the isolation issues and adds in unworkable mechanics (I'd have to invent entire systems to make movement and/or space combat make any sense), a two-setting approach that feels like a poor fit for both Rifts and After the Bomb, and a lack of any compelling story, conflict, personalities, or adventures that I could see GMs or players get excited about. It's also a book that Phase World and the Three Galaxies series of books has utterly eclipsed for people who want to play Rifts in space. If there's one book in canon I would want to retcon and totally rewrite, Mutants in Orbit would be it.

Zer0 Kay wrote:I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

Warshield73 wrote:A Techno-Wizard is no different than any other OCC in that there are things you need to do outside of game time. Men-at-arms need to shop for new and better weapons or repair equipment. Example I had a RMB headhunter with a robot vehicle and he wanted smart multi-warhead Medium Range Missiles for his vehicle. The first time he did this I made it part of an adventure, but later it was just shopping between games as it would just get too boring.

TWs are the same. He wants to create a device you can make a few adventures around acquiring some really expensive or rare components but most of it is just shopping and can be done over email between adventures. Construction is the same. Sit down with the player and make the rolls until he has successfully made the device or the components are exhausted, determine how much time it will take and then just keep track of time between adventures and when you hit that time they have the device.

Mack wrote:However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

TWs have great psionics, spells (yes half power when not through a device but still useful in an emergency), and while they don't have a lot of skills there only real limitation is no espionage. With all this you can make any kind of character you want.

I had players make characters modeled on Batman, Flash Gordon, and of course WWII pilots.

MadGreenSon wrote:Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

Mack wrote:Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Likewise, I've had a concept in mind for a TW works as a merc version of the CS Skelebot Specialist, only with TW-enhanced Triax 'bots.

I have never had anyone play a Psi-Tech but they seem underpowered compared to most of the other OCCs.

A TW overseeing a group of TW modified drones would be terrifying.

Blue_Lion wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Mack wrote:However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Throw in a high megas for access to high level spells, and they could really start getting nasty.

Well you did not remove the heart/leaking nuke core so the robots golem powers allow it to full heal and get back up in a day.

I'm not going to let a PC do this but you just gave me a great idea for an evil TW antagonist.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Mack wrote:Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Warshield73 wrote:I have never had anyone play a Psi-Tech but they seem underpowered compared to most of the other OCCs.

A Psi Tech is pretty much an Operator with a few more psionic abilities, slightly less skill with building stuff, and pretty amazing potential as a pilot.

Having a Psi Tech for a pilot might be a good call...

Blue_Lion wrote:If you want a sneaky TW the NinjaTW, but as far as I know it was not updated to match rue. (still has the old TW two skill slot for tech skills.)

MadGreenSon wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

In my experience I have better, longer lasting, games when the group has focus. Whether that's similar occupations, or just fully coordinated with everyone to put a group together for a purpose.

Going free for all and letting everyone do whatever leads to short and unsatisfying campaigns in my experience.

Zer0 Kay wrote:I found Madhaven comparatively boring.
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

Zer0 Kay wrote:That isolation and reason for going to those strange places... same reason to go most places in the megaverse... random Rifts.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The three galaxies can't be used for Rifts in space. The way it is now should definately be redone but they can't go as far as phaseworld because the stations and colonies would have no reason not to descend and completely annihilate most of the "alien" invaders.

Warshield73 wrote:I agree with this but a purpose is far better unifying factor than similar OCCs. This also applies to skills and powers too. A group with a diversity of equipment and abilities opens up a wider range of adventure options than a group with a narrow focus of character.

I have told this before but several years back I ran a small group of 4 for about a year and each player chose a human, RUE OCC with no mage. It was a GB, operator, mind melter and something else but it was such a narrow group that there were adventure options that just weren't open to me as the GM.

Warshield73 wrote:
I disagree with your take on Madhaven, I haven't gotten to use it much but I do like it.

Warshield73 wrote:I kind of agree with the take on cliche' books,.

Warshield73 wrote:
I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

And this is why we're enemies.

Warshield73 wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:If you want a sneaky TW the NinjaTW, but as far as I know it was not updated to match rue. (still has the old TW two skill slot for tech skills.)

This is a problem with a lot of books that came out before RUE, especially the first 12 or so. There was just a discussion about what skills the Temporal Warrior has from WB3. GM and player just have to work together to make some modifications to the skills. The TW Ninja is easy as you can just look at the changes made to the TW from RMB to RUE and try to make similar adjustments.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

In my experience I have better, longer lasting, games when the group has focus. Whether that's similar occupations, or just fully coordinated with everyone to put a group together for a purpose.

Going free for all and letting everyone do whatever leads to short and unsatisfying campaigns in my experience.

I agree with this but a purpose is far better unifying factor than similar OCCs. This also applies to skills and powers too. A group with a diversity of equipment and abilities opens up a wider range of adventure options than a group with a narrow focus of character.

I have told this before but several years back I ran a small group of 4 for about a year and each player chose a human, RUE OCC with no mage. It was a GB, operator, mind melter and something else but it was such a narrow group that there were adventure options that just weren't open to me as the GM.

Zer0 Kay wrote:I found Madhaven comparatively boring.
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

I disagree with your take on Madhaven, I haven't gotten to use it much but I do like it. I kind of agree with the take on cliche' books, I like Japan and England, but my least favorite books are the cliche' and my favorite is the ultimate in weird non-cliche' and that is Atlantis. When Atlantis was first advertised some of my friends were expecting something out of Marvel or DC (Namor or Aqua Man) and we got the Splugorth.

Zer0 Kay wrote:That isolation and reason for going to those strange places... same reason to go most places in the megaverse... random Rifts.

Zer0 Kay wrote:The three galaxies can't be used for Rifts in space. The way it is now should definately be redone but they can't go as far as phaseworld because the stations and colonies would have no reason not to descend and completely annihilate most of the "alien" invaders.

I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.

Warshield73 wrote:I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

And this is why we're enemies.

Oh to the heart


Whatever. I know you guys just look over, pat me on the head and go "Awwww look so stupid he's cute."

Bah RP is full of cliche:
Tank as the ultimate weapon
Mecha
Cyborgs
MaGiC
Katana
Sword and... Sorcery
Arthur
Dragons
Atlantis
Legends
if nothing was cliche it would be all new and though we may be interested in it because of the wonder... if everything was new there would be no connection to it so there is some degree of cliche that we connect with

what you really hate is the cliche that is so cliche that it is irritating, trite and has lost its original meaning... but all of those in the list to some degree or another have already done that, the newest thing about Rifts was combining fantasy with sci-fi but even that had already been done before Rifts.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.

Definately this at best at worst it should be Firefly but in order to fix everything I sense they'll be more Space 1999 and just push the moon and all the tech away...

Zer0 Kay wrote:that would kind of make Earth more like Thundar...

Ariel! Ookla! RIDE

Wooly wrote:I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Wooly wrote:I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.

Exactly.

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Wooly wrote:I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.

Exactly.

Amen.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Wooly wrote:I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.

Exactly.

Amen.

Yeah...and nah. I can live either way. The views given IIRC were from Tarn and many of those hearsay.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Wooly wrote:I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.

Exactly.

Amen.

Yeah...and nah. I can live either way. The views given IIRC were from Tarn and many of those hearsay.

Tarn was the voice of Kevin; it's what the world was intended to be like.
The only ones that were hearsay were the ones that were stated to be.

But that's not the point here; the point is that a lot of us prefer a pretty unpopulated planet that's mostly wilderness and unexplored lands, rather than high-tech cities and magic on every continent and in most every former state or nation.
There's not much point in a post-apocalypse Earth where there's people everywhere, and the setting was MUCH more interesting when mundane humans had to make some pretty rough choices to survive, such as whether to live under Coalition protection, or to to a magic-friendly city where they'd be easy prey and wouldn't be able to compete as well for jobs and such, or try to live in the wilderness, or whether to make some serious sacrifices to be an M&M.
Now there are SO many choices and so many of them aren't that tough, so the setting's lost a lot of it's appeal for some of us, as written.
The original setting gave you a choice of joining the Nazis or joining the Demons/monsters, or trying to survive somewhere in-between the clashing forces.
Now it's like, "Or just go out west where you have inexplicably powerful gear without the baggage" and so forth.
One of the original themes was that power--and even survival--came at a price, and the price has deflated in so many ways it's changed the feel.

MadGreenSon wrote:The Illinois Nazis are an unstoppable force that already effectively controls the continent whenever they decide to roll their millions and millions of powered armor suits out to go do some genocide.

Speaking of annoying things in World Books. WB 28 Arzno starts talking about this hardcore bunch of vampires and how tough they are on page 125 and then, after giving all the details on them, on page 139 it gives us the "Important Story Note" telling us that all that neato vampire stuff that made them look like a real threat? Not a problem! Those vampires are turbo-screwed because they're gonna screw it all up and die!

Wow. Why bother telling us about these feckless losers then? The PCs won't be needed to turn the tide against evil here, it's handled! Were we supposed to feel bad for the vampires and want to help them or something?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Wooly wrote:I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.

Exactly.

Amen.

Yeah...and nah. I can live either way. The views given IIRC were from Tarn and many of those hearsay.

Tarn was the voice of Kevin; it's what the world was intended to be like.
The only ones that were hearsay were the ones that were stated to be.

But that's not the point here; the point is that a lot of us prefer a pretty unpopulated planet that's mostly wilderness and unexplored lands, rather than high-tech cities and magic on every continent and in most every former state or nation.
There's not much point in a post-apocalypse Earth where there's people everywhere, and the setting was MUCH more interesting when mundane humans had to make some pretty rough choices to survive, such as whether to live under Coalition protection, or to to a magic-friendly city where they'd be easy prey and wouldn't be able to compete as well for jobs and such, or try to live in the wilderness, or whether to make some serious sacrifices to be an M&M.
Now there are SO many choices and so many of them aren't that tough, so the setting's lost a lot of it's appeal for some of us, as written.
The original setting gave you a choice of joining the Nazis or joining the Demons/monsters, or trying to survive somewhere in-between the clashing forces.
Now it's like, "Or just go out west where you have inexplicably powerful gear without the baggage" and so forth.
One of the original themes was that power--and even survival--came at a price, and the price has deflated in so many ways it's changed the feel.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

MadGreenSon wrote:The Illinois Nazis are an unstoppable force that already effectively controls the continent whenever they decide to roll their millions and millions of powered armor suits out to go do some genocide.

And yet still take years to roll over a speedbump like Tolkeen.

Zer0 Kay wrote:but in order to fix everything I sense they'll be more Space 1999 and just push the moon and all the tech away... that would kind of make Earth more like Thundar...

Ariel! Ookla! RIDE

Warshield73 wrote:I disagree with this. I cut Earth off with a combination of massive ley line and dimensional storms surrounding the earth and self replicating orbital weapons system that shoots everything that tries to enter or leave the planet. Small, very stealthy craft can maneuver their way through if they are lucky but it is a risk and too difficult for invaders from space to get to Earth. It's cheese and and convenient as all ... but it keeps them separate enough while still letting the PCs move between them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:But that's not the point here; the point is that a lot of us prefer a pretty unpopulated planet that's mostly wilderness and unexplored lands, rather than high-tech cities and magic on every continent and in most every former state or nation.

MadGreenSon wrote:Also, there's no real choice in NA anymore. The Illinois Nazis are an unstoppable force that already effectively controls the continent whenever they decide to roll their millions and millions of powered armor suits out to go do some genocide.

Killer Cyborg wrote:And yet still take years to roll over a speedbump like Tolkeen.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
lol
I still haven't really read through Arzno much. Sounds like a lot of great ideas, but I haven't gotten around to them yet.
THAT part sounds like it could be ignored for anybody who wants the vamps to be a big deal in NA.
Seems weird.

ShadowLogan wrote:Better tell that to Archie-3, because he's said in text to be able to take on the CS and win. The reason why the CS seems like an unstoppable force is because they don't really have a proper check in NA acting to oppose them, those that can operate more in the Shadows (Archie, Republicans, Fed. of Magic) or the CS avoids provoking (like the Atlantis or the 'Bugs) because they know its a fight they can't win (I suspect if Naruni could give them a headache just like Atlantis if a business case could be made).

MadGreenSon wrote:Archie's never gonna do anything that really matters. Because yeah, by rights he should be a huge threat, but he's just... not. He's too busy hating the Splugorth and hiding from everyone and now the Republicans, who also don't really do anything else of note, are also messing with him. He needs to step up his game because other than making robo-waifus for fans to obsess over he ain't been doing his share of villaining.

Blue_Lion wrote:Honestly if his idea man decides the CS is a threat Archie would do something.
If he changed his idea man he could have a good reason to fight the CS.