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Aermas wrote:

Wise_Owl wrote:
You don't understand the mentality that India is a hug esubcontinent with tonnes of awesome stuff about it and I might want a worldbook about it cause it could be awesome? I'm not sure I understand your objections here in the context of this thread, which was literally about how to change the Rifts setting. One of my main critiques is the over-focus, especially in later books, on North America at the expense of fleshing out the rest of the planet was a weakness that contributed to me not buying more rifts books.

After thinking about my conversation with Cyber I think part of the problem was they did it to themselves; The First World-books were Vampire Kingdoms, Atlantis and England. I really enjoyed each of those and they set up this sort of travelouge impression of the world. Expanding and setting new places, new things. Mutants in Orbit was similar. Africa was lack-lustre, but then Triax, South America, and Undersea's, which is debatably the best of the world books and set up a sort of travel paths between places and, at the time, suggested an upcoming book that would deal more expressly with the Pacific/Indian Oceans.

The First Nine Worldbooks were places other than the continental US and it wasn't until Juicer Uprising that we then had a seeming definitive shift in World Book production, the next Seven being various book in NA. Then two books on Russia, one on Australia, One on Canada... sorta...? the Splyunn Dimenisonal Market, then sort of flopping back and forth between NA and the WOrld.

My point in reiterating this is that Worldbooks produce alot of information about alot of the world, but left out HUGE portions of it, and still kind of do. Coupled with the broad failures of Rifts Africa, which I think have been discussed at length, well they are holes that to me, need to be patched.

It ultimately doesn't matter if it's huge, or "awesome" as you put it. The Ganges could have been hit with magic & made an entire ocean out of the subcontinent. A demon plague could have left it barren. It could have been teleported wholecloth to wormwood. Just because it's big or interesting to you doesn't mean it's going to be similar in RIFTS Earth. Could be just a bunch of boring places not doing much. Just because you are interested in it doesn't mean anyone else is, & it doesn't mean that it deserves a book. I would LOVE a France book, but its just not happening.

Yes it's focused on North America. Because it was written largely by North Americans who know about North America, not a staff of purposefully picked multinational writers with a focus of bringing every corner of the globe into a focus. There is nothing wrong with that.

For me it's not about culture or history or anything; it's about population density and other factors that might help determine who survives an apocalypse.
A nation with a billion people (more or less) is more likely to have some survivors than a place with half that population, all else being equal, just due to random chance.
A disaster strikes with 99.9% lethality, a nation with a billion people will have more survivors than a place with 1 million people.

So I can see good reason on that front alone why India should have some kind of survivors and civilization in Rifts Earth.
It's not like Japan, which we were told in the RMB was destroyed.

At the same time, I definitely have that North American bias, and IF they'd made a Rifts: India book back in the 1990s or 2000s, I would have basically been like "That makes sense, but I still don't care."
Especially if Palladium did India in the style of their other books:

Supernatural Cows!
MDC Dirt Roads!
Techno-Wizard Curry!
New, Exciting OCCs such as Medical Doctor, Hotel Owner, Tour Guide, White Savior, Convenience Store Owner, Cyber-Thugee, and Feral Child Raised By A Pack Of Wolves And A Bear!!
New Caste System background generation!
Hand To Hand: Gurkha!
East India Tea Company Power Armor!
Explore the secrets of the magical Taj Mahal!!

Aermas wrote:It ultimately doesn't matter if it's huge, or "awesome" as you put it. The Ganges could have been hit with magic & made an entire ocean out of the subcontinent. A demon plague could have left it barren. It could have been teleported wholecloth to wormwood. Just because it's big or interesting to you doesn't mean it's going to be similar in RIFTS Earth. Could be just a bunch of boring places not doing much. Just because you are interested in it doesn't mean anyone else is, & it doesn't mean that it deserves a book. I would LOVE a France book, but its just not happening.

Yes it's focused on North America. Because it was written largely by North Americans who know about North America, not a staff of purposefully picked multinational writers with a focus of bringing every corner of the globe into a focus. There is nothing wrong with that.

Very good points. Absolutely, the world as we know it doesn't exist in Rifts Earth and there should be no expectation that anything man-made or natural would survive the Cataclysm. Without a book for a given region, GMs are free to world-build on their own, drawing from game rules, other settings, and meta-story elements. (Though Rifts France would make a lot of sense for a book given it would be the NGR's western front and could bridge the huge gap through to England. Just please no sentient mutant baguettes...)

On the NA focus, I'm glad that they have been expanding on this region in greater detail as that is what I as a GM and player can relate to. I have no point of reference for places like SAmerica, Africa or Asia even with so many books out there already, so my games typically stay away from there, except for elements brought in as an exotic element. I can understand why other GMs and players may want other regions to be detailed, as they may be parts of the world the players are familiar with or have an interest in. However, that also means the authors have to treat those regions with creativity and respect, or it could turn off the very people who asked for that content.

But the world is a big place and the map of Rifts Earth is patchy requiring a lot of effort (i.e. real world $$$) to fill in - perhaps it comes down to what people are willing to pay for. If most GMs/players buy books about where they are from because it is easier to visualize in the theatre of the mind, then that's what PB will likely publish. However, as pointed out, this doesn't mean the locale will still be recognizable. There is the question of using familiar elements to drive strategic expansion of the Rifts RPG into emerging markets, but that's a whole different topic. Bottom line, if the bulk of PB customers continue to pay for NA oriented content, then that's what will likely be the focus of most future books. My 2 credits worth.

Real World South America is 5.4 times larger than India. I want at least that proportion of factions on Rifts Earth. And while the Rifts South America books had some stuff based on stereotype it's mostly just random Rifts nonsense. The Pantheons book had a couple of references on India, for instance a Neuron Beast pretending to be a god. The Vedic and Hindu deities as depicted in Pantheons aren't active on Rifts Earth, which is roughly the way to go with current real world religions. Russia has a couple of churches ran by Mystics acting as priests whom aren't game-mechanically Priests, for instance.

A book on India might spend a paragraph or two on yogic siddhis and how they can be mostly modeled with psionics, instead of making up some new sort of culturally-specific category of character.

Maybe even whatever expectation a reader may have for religious caricature could be subverted. From the maps in Underseas/Lemuria there's a nexus in Kolkata. Perhaps some god from another dimension came in with an organized but small priesthood, intent on conquest despite being absolutely unsuited for some reason.

Curbludgeon wrote:And while the Rifts South America books had some stuff based on stereotype it's mostly just random Rifts nonsense.

This is a fair assessment.

I would also want to change the way people talk about it.

It would be "The setting of Rifts." or "The Rifts Game's setting." Because Rifts is a whole Game unto itself. Not a fraction of a large game.
Just like PFRPG is a game unto itself, as is Splicers, and all the other different GAMES that PB makes/made.

The closest RE has to a Bug People region, I think, is Cibola with its Gatherers, or the Xiticix, so maybe there's one in India. It shouldn't have arisen from Golden Age Science like Achilles or Tritonia, deities like Omagua or the Phoenix Empire, alien intelligences like Cibola and Atlantis, and not dealing with a recent leadership change like Lagarto. Perhaps it's a colony of science-based dimension travelers, who learned hatching near different nearby nexii have reproduceable effects. Or instead maybe bug people tend to congregate in Astral Realms and the dimensional hub is somewhere in Central to Southern India, and some sort of psychic chaff is emitted which explains why North Indian Tiger Robots don't tend to find their way to the coast.

I would consider taking the solid-oxide power cells from Northern Gun and some weapons having a recharge time like in Triax 2, and make those core.

I feel like if the default assumption is that power armors and vehicles need their batteries charged or replacement cells you can still get away with some ridiculous vehicles that are limited by their power needs instead of everything virtually lasting forever.

Additionally if different heavy weapons have different recharge rates you can enable different power armors to have different benefits, such as a light armor with a far too big cannon only being able to fire it once per five minutes, but the design pushes for maneuvering for the weakest spot to blast into. Or alternatively a heavy armor that has loads of light lasers that can fire simultaneously to shred opponents unlucky enough to be hit by them all.

This could also lead to a reevaluation of TW armors and vehicles if traveling the ley lines was one of the ways to guarantee your gear was powered. Also possibly establish some new roadways and trade routes when people learn there's a solar plant that offers battery recharges in the middle of the stinking desert and not a lot of alternatives for miles each way.

Lastly it would also promote the importance of weaker suits that could exist due to using up less charge over a longer period of time, though that would also require reconsidering how many MDC creatures are out there

Wow, a loaded topic.

Ignoring game mechanical issues…

1) Coalition.

a. Education The Coalition needs to be more educated. Both because an educated populace can be manipulated as well as an uneducated one, and because it increases productivity. Education can also be used to build a common culture and direct it.

b. Propaganda. Otherizing not only the non-terrestrial natives but the non-Coalition types as well. Being able to take pride in not using that ‘weird, unclean magic’ as well as that you’re more educated than Joe Pecos Kingdom guy, even if you’re ‘just’ a farmer yourself. You’re a Coalition farmer, and that grain you grow feeds your troopers and makes them healthy and strong to reclaim Earth for Humanity! Also the propaganda is used to make people do the basic tasks feel part of something greater. You’re working that 10 hour factory shift not for the glory of Prosek, but for the glory of making Earth safe! (yes, I know earth isn’t capitalized, in English, but it’s going to be in the Propaganda.)c. Logistics: Saving humanity takes a lot of effort. The Coalition shouldn’t have a huge army concentrated in one place, smaller units out on the border, protecting the farms, mines etc. This leads to my next topic


2) Earth is big.

a. So, using modern roads (and google maps) it takes about 8 hours to bicycle from my little town of Cambridge to Columbus Ohio. From Springfield, Ohio (roughly where Magesstar is) to Joliet, IL is about a day and 8 hours by bike. Now that’s without 200 years of lack of maintenance on the roads and no cataclysm. The point I’m making is moving troops across undeveloped woodland is hard. Moving supplies is harder. All of the little states should be more focused on protecting what they own. Especially the Tech dominant states like the CS, since in addition of defending their own borders, nothing prevents a rift opening in their territory and dropping something dangerous.[/marq]

b. Likewise, I’d (re)isolate Triax from the US and make Quebec more remote. Again, sending envoys back and forth can be done, but these huge cargo ships carrying tons of cargo over untamed ocean and wilderness, no. Allies or not who’s going to risk that much war material for little reward?[/marq]


3) Make Mega-Damage Mega-Rare again. Power creep is inevitable in any game system, it’s one things new editions try to help curb. Here I think Savage Worlds themes have it right. Mega-Damage weapons should be big, cumbersome, and rare. So should Mega-damage armor. SDC armor works for troopers, standard sized robots, most supernaturals, etc. The “Oh crap, we need Mega-Damage weapons now!” should be a rare instant. As it stands not only do we have the possibility of the one guy with a MD laser scalpel blowing up houses, how do these poor farmers actually farm when a single MD raptor like the Blood Hawk can eat his entire flock and he can’t do squat? “Ho Adventurers, I once was a rancher but now am a simple garlic farmer. Would you kill that indestructible bird for me?

I've more thoughts, but this is already pretty long

My suggestion might seem like heresy, but I find Rifts rather too BUSY. I would probably put things on say 7 to 20 worlds located in different dimensions connected by the rifts. That way you could have each world with a number of cultures and a chance for each world to focus on a specific form of development. Such as an entire world where Psionicis much more advanced and you explore the breadth of psychic technology. You might still have one "hodgepodge" world where the others join, but it would make more sense to see each culture more fully fleshed out. A world where genetic engineering is the norm and you have all the Dog Boys and the Birds, Cats, and Amphibs from Achilles would be another one to see...

WesleySnacks wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 3:15 pm I would consider taking the solid-oxide power cells from Northern Gun and some weapons having a recharge time like in Triax 2, and make those core.

I feel like if the default assumption is that power armors and vehicles need their batteries charged or replacement cells you can still get away with some ridiculous vehicles that are limited by their power needs instead of everything virtually lasting forever.
...

Self-recharging e-clips could help gameplay focus on dynamic action of hit and evade (to recharge) rather than just endlessly swapping out of standard e-clips. And you are right, a better understanding of the energy economy of gear would be helpful, though the NG world books gave some useful data on the drain of batteries. Enough that I was able to postulate some assumptions and guesstimate home brew equivalencies between batteries, gas/diesel, solar conversion, and e-clips based on consumption of energy (MJ).

The_Livewire wrote:a. Education The Coalition needs to be more educated. Both because an educated populace can be manipulated as well as an uneducated one, and because it increases productivity. Education can also be used to build a common culture and direct it.

Meh, I like the idea that the masses are not highly educated. Think of it as making sure the gameplay in the rural areas will be different than city settings. The pragmatic tyrant might think ignorance is cheaper than education, particularly when you have an educated core safely hidden away in the upper levels of megacities, leaving most city dwellers as ignorant consumers and the disposable bumpkins to huddle in their villages hoping "heroic" SAMAS patrols keep monsters and savages away. This means that PCs have a very distinct world view that separates them from the NPCs they encounter, creating opportunities for drama or tension.

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:18 pm
Meh, I like the idea that the masses are not highly educated. Think of it as making sure the gameplay in the rural areas will be different than city settings. The pragmatic tyrant might think ignorance is cheaper than education, particularly when you have an educated core safely hidden away in the upper levels of megacities, leaving most city dwellers as ignorant consumers and the disposable bumpkins to huddle in their villages hoping "heroic" SAMAS patrols keep monsters and savages away. This means that PCs have a very distinct world view that separates them from the NPCs they encounter, creating opportunities for drama or tension.

To each their own of course. I just think of us real life 'bumpkins' who know how to do basic auto, carpentry, mechanics anyway. It makes sense that even the rural folks are running at at least an 8th grade (US education system) level.

The_Livewire wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:09 pm

Grazzik wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 8:18 pm
Meh, I like the idea that the masses are not highly educated. Think of it as making sure the gameplay in the rural areas will be different than city settings. The pragmatic tyrant might think ignorance is cheaper than education, particularly when you have an educated core safely hidden away in the upper levels of megacities, leaving most city dwellers as ignorant consumers and the disposable bumpkins to huddle in their villages hoping "heroic" SAMAS patrols keep monsters and savages away. This means that PCs have a very distinct world view that separates them from the NPCs they encounter, creating opportunities for drama or tension.

To each their own of course. I just think of us real life 'bumpkins' who know how to do basic auto, carpentry, mechanics anyway. It makes sense that even the rural folks are running at at least an 8th grade (US education system) level.

You are right - the city-centric bias of the CS leadership might underappreciate the practical know-how required to make a life in a rural setting away from all the mod-cons of android butlers and mango chicken-flavored rat burgers. However, it depends what is considered "highly educated" in the CS. Practical trades and skills, absolutely would be known outside the urban settings - in fact, probably mastered. Even the ability to mechanically tinker with or soup up a hover-vehicle or basic laser rifle. However, probably all learned from family or neighbors or through trial and error, rather than formal academic studies either in a school or by correspondence / radio / online. In game terms, I'd still envision the average NPC as a frontier type OCC or a generic skill set with a focus on the menial work expected of them with a sprinkling of secondary skills.

Formal learning is probably vociferously discouraged by the authorities as it would give the peons ideas and cause trouble. More likely, in the mind of many CS officials sent to oversee rural communities, it just means that the locals aren't dedicated enough to the State (or to the betterment of the official's standing) since they are taking time for themselves to be educated instead of working. Theoretical sciences, computer programming, genetic manipulation beyond horticulture or animal husbandry, basically anything that requires dedicating a substantial amount of time to gather and understand an advanced body of knowledge would not be feasible or allowed outside a city if most of your time is dedicated to the forestry/farming/mining/etc. to feed the insatiable appetites of the megacities and fighting off raiders and beasties while you're at it.

While in Rifts communities that are more "free", there may be more social mobility and educational opportunities if you can get to a town or city and afford it. However, the less restrictive social order doesn't alleviate the ever-present demands on most people outside of urban enclaves to toil and survive at the expense of a formal education.

Stop pretending that Coalition soldiers are heroes.

Looking from the outside, I don't think anyone sees the Coalition as the good guys. Even my cohost who likes to get people worked up by acting like a Coalition shill up doesn't actually see them as the good guy.

However, if you consider a world where people and even city-destroying monsters can show up anywhere, the rise of something like the Coalition does make sense.

"Well, it sucks that I'm not allowed to read, and I'm sure this police state does some nefarious stuff, but I'm alive and I can just look away from [redacted]." There is more than one example of this phenomenon happening in the 20th century... and many, many more throughout history.

No matter how tough they talk, most people aren't heroes when their life is on the line. They just want to live their lives; the Coalition provides that illusion of security.

As far as the OP goes, I would somewhat limit MDC armor and weapons, and I would make MDC creatures a bit more rare and more impactful at the same time.
• 1) Makes MDC monsters even scarier.
• 2) Makes the impact of adventurers, mercenaries, and even groups like the NGR and The Coalition more understandable.
• 3) Brings back the relevance of SDC armor and weapons (which in theory should be way more common than presented in most games).

Sure, all of this can be done right now in anyone's campaign, but if I were Emperor of Rifts for one day, I would just find a way to promote more SDC encounters and make MDC even scarier.

[To be clear, I'm not calling the Coalition the good guys and I'm not hating on MDC!]

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:36 am Stop pretending that Coalition soldiers are heroes.

1) The thread is 'how would you change the setting.' Not "Stop changing the setting."

2) A Better educated, more defensive Coalition doesn't make them less bad guys by default. It does allow for more dynamic stories, much like other suggestions made of downplaying the Prosek family and the Fascism in general.

3) It also allows for 'border towns' who technically are part of the CS, but so remote that if the coalition doc isn't available, they'll turn to the witchy woman in the woods, for example

The_Livewire wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:02 pm

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:36 am Stop pretending that Coalition soldiers are heroes.

1) The thread is 'how would you change the setting.' Not "Stop changing the setting."

2) A Better educated, more defensive Coalition doesn't make them less bad guys by default. It does allow for more dynamic stories, much like other suggestions made of downplaying the Prosek family and the Fascism in general.

3) It also allows for 'border towns' who technically are part of the CS, but so remote that if the coalition doc isn't available, they'll turn to the witchy woman in the woods, for example

This wasn't about you. Why do you act like it was?

The books have a VERY long history of saying "Yes, they're part of a fascist war machine, and most think everything non-human should be exterminated (except maybe the slave races uwu), but that doesn't mean they're BAD."

every time i've seen this topic i've said the same things.
1:curtail the CS's power expantion. the coalition states get a LOT of things weirdly handed to them in terms ot resources and politics, and i get to a point thats because sales numbers but it's honestly over the line of "nazi apoligism" at this point and it never should have gotten as bad as it is. making the CS's failures more concrete and forcing them to reassess their abilies to project force, making it clear there's limits to their war material instead of constantly giving them more absurd reports of troop numbers, these sorts of things would go a long way towards unknotting the issue of the CS looking better than they are. the readers shouldn't have to read between the lines to grasp they're not the righteous powerhouses the propaganda shows them as, it's just a bad overall look for the franchise.

2:normalize E-clip power levels. this has always been a problem and it never should have been. some baseline rules laid out in-house for how e-clip charge is drained by various weapon types with accounting for range, power, and rapidity of fire would have done a lot to cut down on the power creep and avoid the endless argument about efficency at tables with even one goldbricker, and would have allowed for more use of the automatic fire rules instead of frequently poorly balanced preset bursts.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:10 pm

The_Livewire wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:02 pm

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:36 am Stop pretending that Coalition soldiers are heroes.

1) The thread is 'how would you change the setting.' Not "Stop changing the setting."

2) A Better educated, more defensive Coalition doesn't make them less bad guys by default. It does allow for more dynamic stories, much like other suggestions made of downplaying the Prosek family and the Fascism in general.

3) It also allows for 'border towns' who technically are part of the CS, but so remote that if the coalition doc isn't available, they'll turn to the witchy woman in the woods, for example

This wasn't about you. Why do you act like it was?

The books have a VERY long history of saying "Yes, they're part of a fascist war machine, and most think everything non-human should be exterminated (except maybe the slave races uwu), but that doesn't mean they're BAD."

1) Gee, you replied to a thread that I posted in, after I posted, talking about the Coalition. Why wouldn't I think it 'was about me?'

2) Can someone point you to the 'quote' function so you can actually allow people to read your mind w/o using I.S.P.

3) point 1 still stands.

Orin J. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:11 pm every time i've seen this topic i've said the same things.


2:normalize E-clip power levels. this has always been a problem and it never should have been. some baseline rules laid out in-house for how e-clip charge is drained by various weapon types with accounting for range, power, and rapidity of fire would have done a lot to cut down on the power creep and avoid the endless argument about efficency at tables with even one goldbricker, and would have allowed for more use of the automatic fire rules instead of frequently poorly balanced preset bursts.

More standardization of E-clips and similar things (and downplaying MDC) I think would definitely change the game for the better.

Sambot wrote: ↑Sat Jun 24, 2023 6:50 pm

To add to what I posted earlier.

7) I'd have more nations of D-Bees. Like a Scotland populated by Dwarves and Switzerland by Elves, only they could be all over really. Dwarves in area in Nevada with lots of mines. Elves in the Santa Cruise redwoods. Cyclops on Alcatraz, etc. These nations could be primitive or advanced.

More Mutants, especially animals. I know we can have any mutants we want but outside the more "mass produced" types like Dog Boys, Outside a couple RCCs it' a forgotten character option. I'd expand it to a full Character Class, like Borg'. Depending on the mutation they could be treated completely Human to similar to how Psi-stalker are treated to being considered a D-bee or an experiment. I would also expand CS, and other's experiments, to include even more animal types. Penguin SCUBA Troops, Turtle Commandos, Seal SEALs, Elephant Machine/Rail Gunners, Bird Paratroopers/Jet Pack Troops, Sloth administration personnel, Bunny cops, Fish underwater salvagers, Cockroach scientists, etc. Dog Boys would remain the most numerous type in North America though. The animals used would depend on their location and could even include extinct species. The OCCs available would vary depending the organization. Few in the CS to completely open on Outback Station.

9) New OCCs.
I'd have road gangs to help emphasize how spread out and isolated the mega cities are. The CS may claim a lot of territory but doesn't control all of it. I'd also have their counterparts to escort convoys from the smaller towns to the bigger ones to protect the supply lines. I'd have a Trooper list for convoy size/importance, which would vary from CS troopers to Mercs riding shotgun.

10) Camping supplies. There's some, I think, but I'd widen the variety from MDC tents to campers they can attach or pull behind their vehicles. Campouts can be fun but with MDC animals, monsters, and armed bandits/enemy troops, Adventures and troopers are going to want someplace safe and secure to sleep, eat, stuff. They'd range from small 1-2 person side cars or trailers that can be used by motor/hover cycles to larger RVs for a full squad and everything in between. This would go along with 9 to help emphasis that people can be out in the wilderness for days to weeks to years at a time.

I'd get rid of 90% of the meta-plot stuff, and the CS plot armor.
I'd make sure it was explained that places like Chi-Town, the NGR, the War Camps in Russia, and so on are the exceptions to the rule of a post-apocalyptic setting. Same with the MD critters.
I'd tone down the MDC a bit, especially with dinosaurs.

First off, the challenge with the Rifts setting is that there is no overarching genre to set the tone for the setting - it is everything and the kitchen sink. This means the setting can be anything you want it to be. A sandbox world, so to speak. So, no matter what we each suggest, it may not work for someone else. And that's fine. A comic book experience. Gritty realism. Sweeping meta-stories of nation states and faceless loot pinatas. Going from cliche adventure to cliche adventure and calling that a campaign. Lone-wolf missions or personal vendetta. Rifts is versatile enough to do it all, depending on what you want. What works for meta-plots on a global scale may not be at all relevant between PCs and NPCs interacting in a bar somewhere leading up to a disagreement over a jukebox.

I look for the setting to be a backdrop for telling dramatic, but not comic book-esque, stories from the viewpoint of PCs. The versatility and opportunity for mature nuanced stories is a big draw of the Rifts setting. The good guy that struggles with having to do bad things every day. The family that has to give up something precious just to see the next dawn. The bad guy that does good things to lay up an even bigger caper later. The team that accomplishes a goal, but resentment leads to infighting or betrayal. This play on tension and duality / multiplicity of personal conflict keeps the story fresh and players engaged. That is the point of storytelling, to give participants an experience. The crisis points make alignments meaningful. It takes the game several degrees away from just rolling dice. It takes the best that Rifts has to offer and elevates it beyond the two-dimensional comic book Hero vs Villain dynamic.

Now that you have some context re my gameplay style, here's my list of what would improve the setting. I agree with many of the suggestions re thematic mechanic changes that impact setting. I've posted before about...

- Resetting MDC to 10:1. Having posted before on why and the impact it has on the world setting, no need to repeat.
- Starting with Golden Age tech and devolving it back to what survived the Cataclysm or rediscovered after.
- Clarity/correction on physics, whether it is about energy in e-clips or the speed of hover vehicles... anything that doesn't exist IRL should have a semi-plausible basis, even if that is a new element called Proto Culture or Handwavium. Just be clear and consistent.
- Clarity on Rift frequency. Just how magically active is Earth and how does this impact the PCs' experience?

I'd add...

- An arbitrary Rule of Cool only goes so far before it gets boring for GMs and players looking for story. The Rifts setting gives us an opportunity to be challenged, to overcome adversity, to accomplish a goal in a given context... and THEN brag about it or relish the feeling of success and comradery. So, when suspending our sense of disbelief but still using numbers or in-world cross-references, it makes a BIG difference when a modicum of preparation and research has gone into the world building to make sure those numbers and facts are reasonable and/or correct.

- Clarity on encounter frequency. Knowing the likelihood of running into bandits on a road vs the woodland paths in a given setting region could impact the PCs' choices and the story the GM lays out. How many encounters in a day travelling? How many encounters at night while in camp? How many encounters in a Burb's streets while getting supplies restocked? As a GM, this kind of information can be helpful when setting the tone for players, e.g. encounter frequency should reflect that Ciudad Juarez is a busier place than Sleepsville. How the PCs dress, act and engage with NPCs could impact the encounter frequency for a given place or scenario. Adding a degree of randomness from dice rolls might even make a trip into Juarez a pleasant uneventful visit if super lucky.

- Give GMs more creative things (and not just new weapons for PCs to buy) to pick and choose from in order to populate their respective sandbox world. Different d-bees, detailed descriptions of places, a collection of pre-rolled generic NPCs, specific NPCs at all levels and walks of life (not just the movers and shakers), new Rift/LL related phenomena, etc. Stop with the meta-plots... just give motivators, sentiments, general behavioral descriptions and leave it to the GMs to come up with the stories and their own meta-plots. If there is a compulsive need to write meta-plots and force GMs to craft their tales a certain way to accommodate canon meta-plots, write non-canon novels or write non-canon campaign/adventure books instead. [BTW for those of us GMs who are a tad overworked or simply lazy, more detailed adventure books would be GREAT! Scale back the number of HLS as ideas without detail just make it harder]

- By re-evaluating the setting, this will impact what OCCs and skills are relevant and valued. Perhaps sever the link between specific OCCs and the setting, so as the setting changes/evolves, OCCs don't need to be modified too much. It would also be an opportunity to fill in the skills gaps that keep popping up from time to time... i.e. farming for farmers... or clarifying what existing skill combinations were intended to represent the missing skill.

- An alien world. Earth should be a patchwork of alien and familiar vignettes, each populated with flora and fauna spat out by Rifts. Simply bolting on the odd magical or alien element to what is in effect just a beat up version of Earth is not interesting and fails to pull the player into the scene in which their PC is interacting.

- There should be radically diverse variations of all kinds of social, political, cultural and economic models. Consider if 98% of a Golden Age town or city were wiped out in the Cataclysm, who might be left to rebuild? What would they choose to rebuild? What food might they eat? What language might they prefer to speak? What clothes might they prefer to wear? A diverse city like Chicago or Austin might not be recognizable as a stereotypically "American" city after such an event. Lazlo is a case in point - it isn't and nor should it be a continuation of Toronto. It is simply a completely new city/society/culture built on top of the ruins with maybe a hint of what came before.

- Power blocs. As suggested by others, the idea of a state government with control over vast swaths of land is highly unlikely, when most of their effort is likely spent to secure food/resources and sites of production. So, the idea of formal national borders is unworkable and the idea of porous spheres of influence and control are more likely. Citizenship, fealty, and tribute will vary depending on the type of social order. Others have suggested a different ways to visualize this power vacuum in the space between city states.

- Roads. During the Golden Age, most personal transport was by hovercar, not requiring roads. So most surface road traffic was heavy industrial or commercial transport. This required 2-3 main arteries radiating from the outer edge of major cities to be built using MDC material to prevent wear and tear from massive vehicles. Except for geological of dimensional shifting of regions, large stretches of these roads remain intact or repairable leading to an important means of moving through the wilderness quickly regionally between communities built over the ruins. However, using these roads comes with risks as they are plagued with bandits, beasties and local warlords looking to impose tolls. Also, these roads are unlikely to stretch beyond 100 miles or cross state lines.

- Availability of tech. Assuming SDC:MDC is kept 100:1, there should be one vibro-blade or MD laser pistol per region. People not belonging to an armed group like a militia or bandit gang would probably go their whole life without even holding one. Even the armed group might only have a handful in the possession of their strongest warriors. GMs should think whether PCs get MD gear until reaching a certain level of experience, influence, or power. Baddies and beasties that wield MD power should be significantly reduced accordingly. Dropping SDC:MDC to 10:1 means the tech has less impact and may be more available since, though still powerful, a MD pistol won't be blowing up SDC tanks or bunkers in a single shot.

- Cost of tech. Keep in mind that, as listed, a cheap suit of PA or a rail gun would probably cost 20+ years of savings for the average city-based NPC to buy, so individuals likely shouldn't just be able to buy one in a marketplace somewhere. Anyone just walking around with that many credits to spend or showing tons of valuable gear is looking for instant trouble.

- Healing and squishies. Other than psionics, magic, or natural regeneration, healing is freaking slow. I'd expect a lot more use of super healing potions (both magical and perhaps scientific "potions" loaded with nanites) and stat out IRMSS and similar tech to rapidly repair damage quickly. Mainly just to keep the action going for tech-centric PCs, without having a TPK part way into a campaign.

- On top of that, I'd look at cultural attitudes to psychic/magical healers and the impact it has on the setting. During the witch hunts in Europe and America IRL, it was rare for so-called wise or cunning folk (people who used herbs, skills, or presumed magic to heal and help others) to be accused of witchcraft. Actually, they often played a role in protecting against witches. As already suggested, I see similar pragmatic attitudes in decentralized communities outside the megacities - fear of the threat from magic and the supernatural, but few willing to die for want of a healing potion. So, regardless of how xenophobic or paranoid the society, there will always be those on the fringe that are frowned upon or denigrated, even though their aid is sought when the need arises.

- D-Bee bio-diversity. Let's start with the bipedal humanoid... two-ish arms, two legs, head, etc. We need more creativity in the forms of intelligent people that walk/fly/slither/float through the Rifts. I get that it can sometimes be difficult to roleplay a being with which you have no common ground to understand their world view, but at least for NPCs it would be great to have more choice. Consider how this influences the setting - the shape and form of looted gear, the need for environmental systems, the choice and variety of food/drugs/meds. What if Cactus People didn't have legs, but instead had tiny prehensile roots that worked like the legs on a millipede?

- Mutants that are not mutant animals. Generational exposure to high Rift activity may have an impact on DNA. Bring out the freaks, the aberrations, the grotesque. They may rule the Wilds and adapt well to the alien landscapes introduced from the Rifts. How they are shunned/embraced by communities can vary from region to region.

- PPE as food or commodity. Just because PPE doubles at death doesn't mean every PPE vampire has to be a raving psycho. Again... nuance. The problem is that if PPE vampires, like psi-stalkers, thought through all the options open to them to get PPE, then PPE from sources other than death just becomes another commodity like frozen concentrated orange juice - a good enough facsimile of the real thing. By the current setting it can be bought, stolen, or hunted for, but there is little discussion on how this shapes PPE-based communities and their culture. The real impact could be immense as it can drive divisions based on perceptions of superiority/inferiority, restriction of supply, and PPE diversion for other purposes.

- Make magic hard and risky. Just because the place is awash in PPE doesn't mean anybody and everybody can do magic. By this I mean require higher IQ, ME and PE stats, have consequences for running PPE down to 0 (even for non-mages), have mages suffer from some form of debilitating PPE poisoning like juicers, if choosing a non-magic OCC have similar char gen rules for the ability to cast as is used for determining the potential for psionics, cast enough spells in rapid succession and possibly cause a small random Rift to appear, etc.

- Yellowstone. I'd have it blow but not covering everything with many feet of ash thousands of miles away. Instead, just use current projections of ash distribution x2 to account for all the other volcanoes that blow around the same time.

- Coastal areas. I would still have the coasts suffer tsunami that temporarily raise sea levels 150ft during the Cataclysm, but have the water recede early on to finish on roughly the same sea levels as today, so GMs and players can still use real maps without drastic changes (except the appearance of a new continent - Atlantis).

- Gods, AIs, VIs, Demon/Dyval Lords, etc. Dump most of their stats - it's a waste of page space and distracts from the setting. Just describe some of their key defining powers and some descriptive narrative. If you are going toe to toe in fisticuffs with a god, you are running a seriously munchkin game that probably requires weeks of real time dice rolling to resolve the fight. Who actually does this? So, realign material to focus on things GMs can actually use and players actually interact with. Namely their underlings - worshippers, minions, fragments, avatars, vamps, demons/dyvals, etc. Spend the time describing how these minions can influence the setting in a way that can directly impact PC experiences.

Get rid of merc town.
Have the people of CS over through corrupt nazi regime.
Stop making world books.

Start creating new worlds to explore.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:36 am Stop pretending that Coalition soldiers are heroes.

They are the only North American force still fighting a global invasion by forces that want to eat human souls, enslave humans, genocide humans, etc. An invasion that has spanned centuries.

Not every D-Bee is a threat but the Minion War, the bugs, the squids in Atlantis, etc, are absolutely evil colonizers & the Coalition is the only power trying to fight them. War is messy & usually the only difference between a Hero & a Villain is who's side you are on.

Aermas wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 4:20 am

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:36 am Stop pretending that Coalition soldiers are heroes.

They are the only North American force still fighting a global invasion by forces that want to eat human souls, enslave humans, genocide humans, etc. An invasion that has spanned centuries.

Not every D-Bee is a threat but the Minion War, the bugs, the squids in Atlantis, etc, are absolutely evil colonizers & the Coalition is the only power trying to fight them. War is messy & usually the only difference between a Hero & a Villain is who's side you are on.

they aren't the only power doing that, they're the only power that gets detailed doing that. Both tolkeen and lazlo have mentions of doing that but they're good guys and rifts writers are allergic to letting the good guys do anything cool.

Orin J. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:48 pm
they aren't the only power doing that, they're the only power that gets detailed doing that. Both tolkeen and lazlo have mentions of doing that but they're good guys and rifts writers are allergic to letting the good guys do anything cool.

Yes they are. Lazlo, & Tolkeen etc. are okay with cohabitation with peaceful D-Bees. Only the CS & Triax are drawing the line at Humans. And yeah the books have bias, but you can't say that humans don't have a right to fight for their homeworld. Hell, for all the villainous stuff the CS does do, they still don't shoot every D-Bee on sight. The 'Burbs are full of D-Bee's

Would it be fair to say that the attitudes of CS leadership, troopers, and the average "person on the street" may vary from person to person? Just like real people within the same family, community and nation may have different attitudes, beliefs, and alignments IRL. How far they are willing to go to achieve safety, security, and a future for themselves, their families, and neighbors will also vary by individual, but also be constrained within the customs, laws and society in which they live for good or ill.

Since the OP was about recreating the Rifts setting from scratch, would it also be fair to say that how the characterization of the CS as xenophobic extremists is described desperately needs to be revisited and/or clarified from the perspectives of various levels of CS society - CS leadership, troopers, and the average person? Perhaps wrt attitudes of city folk, colonists, and wilderness folk that may each have different interactions with d-bees. Painting all CS citizens as cartoonish parodies doesn't seem to work for a lot of people as this flares up time and time again. Whether that revisit results in a partial or full overhaul is part of the creative process, but if we only focus on what is currently written rather than what could be written, the debate between moral absolutism, moral relativism, and everything in between will likely go around in circles. Particularly given the lack of clarity/practical realism and occasional inconsistencies in the current text.

To try and keep this in line with the OP; THe Problem with the CS has a few layers, the biggest one being people portraying Nazi's positively. But honestly, alot of them stems from the fanbase and not the 'text'. People have been trying to paint the genocidal, actively described as basing their society on Nazi Germany, Coalition as the 'good guys' for decades at this point. For some people the narrative of 'humans fighting against the monsters to retake their land' has essential appeal, though I am always a tad suspicions how they stand the Coaltiion rather than say the NGR, who are also a human centric organization, but are actively engaged in a long-standing war against a demonic enemy and are observably less genocidal.

The Coalition works as cartoonish bad-guys, but because they are the 'favoured' baddies of the setting you can't apply 'reality' to them, and you need to be resistant to the idea of...well portraying Nazi's as the good guys.

Because I mean the Splugorth are the obvious good guys... humanities right to the planet? Splynncryth as a person has existed since before the domestication of the dog, asking him to respect humanity is like asking somebody not to spray for ants...

Seriously though, the Coalition can 'work' in a variety of ways, I think others have mentioned the main in universe issues with them are their 'plot armour' and cartoonishness(not in that they are skullw earing nazi's, but in that they suddenly have more advanced military tech in the orders of hundreds of thousands of units that nobody knows about in a world with psychics...among other things.) The Coalition work fine as Future Human Nazi's and provide plenty of great fodder as that angle.

A fair assessment, Wise Owl.

Wise_Owl wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:00 pm ... the main in universe issues with them are their 'plot armour' and cartoonishness(not in that they are skullw earing nazi's, but in that they suddenly have more advanced military tech in the orders of hundreds of thousands of units that nobody knows about in a world with psychics...among other things.) ...

The best thing about the OP question is that if one is recreating the setting from scratch... poof! all that plot armor goes away. Now the Coalition can be reinvented any way one wishes. And that is the point of the OP. What should be changed about the setting from the bottom up?
So, let's see what we can do with this re the CS...

• Drop all the Nazi crap... good riddance.

• Unbelievable resources for a society barely hanging on... hmm, the armory is suddenly empty.

• Ending of the Tolkeen War... never happened. Better yet - it did happen but done completely differently.

• Expansionist goals unchecked by other regional powers... not if the armory is bare. Though the setting still needs a good antagonist with loot pinatas so give 75% of the CS army (probably the conscripts and Burb volunteers) SDC armor and weapons and a massive trade imbalance with NG and MI giving them substantial regional influence.

• An SDC android in every CS home... because there isn't enough time in the day to make dinner and CS citizens can't be trusted to spy on themselves.

• Corrupt elites squeezing the lifeblood out of the oppressed... life ain't fair. I'd expect that in any traumatized society to a certain degree. We don't play Rifts to waltz through an utopia. But at least toilets flush on all levels of the CS megacities.

• CS citizens scared of obvious outsiders who might enslave and/or eat them... well, without irrational fear, where's the chance to save the innocent and be a hero? Whether it's superstitious villagers convinced they are cursed by a foundling toddler or a d-bee from a crazed lynch mob.

• Distrusting of the very powers - psionics (psi-stalkers, dog boys, and Psi Batt) and magic (Vanguard and mercs) - that they blame for destroying their world, but they turn to in order to save themselves... a real Oppenheimer moment there when they realize what they have become... or, alternatively, poof! After a hundred years of intense propaganda, the insular CS masses are so indoctrinated in the power of technology and that magic isn't natural that they have no capacity to cast magic and are all Nega-Psychics, except a select few who are carefully chosen and bred/trained to be Psi-Nullifiers!!!

That was pretty easy to do when starting with a blank slate.

Aermas wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 5:34 pm

Orin J. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 12:48 pm
they aren't the only power doing that, they're the only power that gets detailed doing that. Both tolkeen and lazlo have mentions of doing that but they're good guys and rifts writers are allergic to letting the good guys do anything cool.

Yes they are. Lazlo, & Tolkeen etc. are okay with cohabitation with peaceful D-Bees. Only the CS & Triax are drawing the line at Humans. And yeah the books have bias, but you can't say that humans don't have a right to fight for their homeworld. Hell, for all the villainous stuff the CS does do, they still don't shoot every D-Bee on sight. The 'Burbs are full of D-Bee's

listen, you don't get to argue what the CS is doing strictly from the viewpoint of the CS. tolkeen and lazlo both have been mentioned opposing splugorth, the xixtickx, and other evil factions, and the openly racist argument that some of the people they're protecting aren't "human" for them doesn't dismiss that.

this is what decades of trying to soften the image of fascist rhetoric gets you, people who don't clue into the fact it's fascist rhetoric. they need to be more careful about how they portray these things because the CS is every bit as evil as the splugorth, and being human doesn't make them any better.

Nerf the Xiticix. They are useless as story elements since they don't communicate and don't interact except to fight. Basically, less useful to the setting than weather that causes MD. There's no roleplaying value, just rollplaying.

Either:

• Make them SDC creatures that continue to breed exponentially so they serve as loot pinatas for TK weapons

or

• Have them become delicacies for the demons and monsters of Calgary so they get eaten out of existence eventually

Orin J. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:14 am listen, you don't get to argue what the CS is doing strictly from the viewpoint of the CS. tolkeen and lazlo both have been mentioned opposing splugorth, the xixtickx, and other evil factions, and the openly racist argument that some of the people they're protecting aren't "human" for them doesn't dismiss that.

Yes I can. There are MANY heroic factions, in many different flavors. I love Atlanteans & the Republicans, far more than I do the CS. But, you are painting the CS from a very simple minded point of view. There is nothing wrong with the CS fighting for human freedom. In RIFTS there is little way to discern the threat level or intention of anything. A Flooper is on paper, a hugely dangerous & deadly foe, regardless of how clowning it is. Most of the things on RIFTS earth want to kill you, & most can kill a human with a flick of its fine manipulatior appentage. The CS isn't "shoot on sight" with a lot of D-Bees. They don't want to waste resources on the ones in the 'Burbs unless they cause problems. I'm sure once the CS have somehow maybe ends the Minion War, & ousts the Splugorth, & kills the Lord of the Deep, & all the other big threats, they might consider toning down their policies, but those policies were created out of the living hell that was Chaos Earth. Those policies protected just enough of humanity to have a slim shot of keeping our homeworld. Are the Na'vi the villains of the movie Avatar? Or ANY scenario where people are protecting their home? Sure, absolutely not every D-Bee is on Earth by choice, but the CS doesn't have the luxury of figuring out who is nice & who isn't, not to mention that just because they got Riftwrecked on Earth, doesn't mean they should stay.

Orin J. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 3:14 am this is what decades of trying to soften the image of fascist rhetoric gets you, people who don't clue into the fact it's fascist rhetoric. they need to be more careful about how they portray these things because the CS is every bit as evil as the splugorth, and being human doesn't make them any better.

No, this is what happens when you think fascist = only bad, with no insight into nuance. And yes, being human does make it better when you are a powerless human trying to survive on a planet with giant evil squids that YOU LITERALLY CANNOT HARM.

It shouldn't have to be said, but just so I'm clear. This is not vindication or support of fascism in real life

For all you say "They're protecting humanity's right to their own planet", consider that they also make sophont slave races out of those same natives of the planet. Or relegate many natives of that planet (psychics) to 2nd class citizen status, or worse (hello, psi-stalkers). And that's without getting into the native supernatural creatures.

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:36 pm For all you say "They're protecting humanity's right to their own planet", consider that they also make sophont slave races out of those same natives of the planet. Or relegate many natives of that planet (psychics) to 2nd class citizen status, or worse (hello, psi-stalkers). And that's without getting into the native supernatural creatures.

Never said they don't do bad things. Also, there is no real humane way to deal with psychics. They are walking nukes (literally in some cases) how can you trust that they won't have a bad day & explode? Especially when you have no real way to fight back? Let alone teleporters & mind readers. Psi Stalkers are psychic vampires.

Also, my previous point stands, how can the CS determine that ANY GIVEN CREATURE is "native"?

Isn't there some named internet law about no matter how satirical a depiction of fascism is it will be increasingly taken at face value by consumers? Warhammer, as I understand it, is a good example of this. I'm sure back in the last millennium giving the supremacist nation a debilitating skull fetish was enough to paint them as unequivocally the bad guys, but a quarter century of shades of grey/whaddabout John Rabe probably suggests a reminder wouldn't go amiss.

One change I'd make to Rifts involves making explicit the relationship between energy from a ley line and personal PPE/ISP totals. It seems like a lot of people play as if a LLW can "top off" their personal PPE store whenever they're on a line. While PPE is described as being able to be collected to use in a spell or ritual to be cast at the time of collection, to be able to convert that PPE seems rife for abuse. Spells like Talisman and Energy Sphere can meet that need well enough. Conversely, RUE makes explicit that the amount of ISP drawn from a ley line can only be used in that round, and cannot apply to a personal store. I'd change that. This way, there's a fun contrast between PPE and ISP in this respect, where PPE can be readily used on site, but requires specialized knowledge to take away from a line, while ISP can't be gathered for massive effects but can be personally recharged in an effective act of accelerated meditation.

Blue_Lion wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:23 pm Get rid of merc town.
Have the people of CS over through corrupt nazi regime.
Stop making world books.

Start creating new worlds to explore.

Don't world books cover new worlds to explore?

Grazzik wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 6:57 pm Would it be fair to say that the attitudes of CS leadership, troopers, and the average "person on the street" may vary from person to person? Just like real people within the same family, community and nation may have different attitudes, beliefs, and alignments IRL. How far they are willing to go to achieve safety, security, and a future for themselves, their families, and neighbors will also vary by individual, but also be constrained within the customs, laws and society in which they live for good or ill.

Since the OP was about recreating the Rifts setting from scratch, would it also be fair to say that how the characterization of the CS as xenophobic extremists is described desperately needs to be revisited and/or clarified from the perspectives of various levels of CS society - CS leadership, troopers, and the average person? Perhaps wrt attitudes of city folk, colonists, and wilderness folk that may each have different interactions with d-bees. Painting all CS citizens as cartoonish parodies doesn't seem to work for a lot of people as this flares up time and time again. Whether that revisit results in a partial or full overhaul is part of the creative process, but if we only focus on what is currently written rather than what could be written, the debate between moral absolutism, moral relativism, and everything in between will likely go around in circles. Particularly given the lack of clarity/practical realism and occasional inconsistencies in the current text.

Yes, it would be fair to say that attitudes in the CS varies. That is mentioned in the books, especially Heroes of Humanity. The official CS policy is one thing, how far it's carried out is another. There were troopers who would work with D-Bees, Mages, et, at least temporarily and others that would shoot them on site and report anyone working with them. And the shooting on sight thing has been overblown a bit. It does happen but it isn't a constant thing or there wouldn't be D-Bees in the Burbs.

I remember being told a story by a woman who grew up in Hungary during WWII. She said there was a clear difference between German Soldiers. The locals didn't fear the Wehrmacht solders because were kind and respectful to the locals. They'd defend themselves but didn't treat people poorly. The Waffen-SS though were were feared by everyone as they were evil and treated everyone else terribly. There's also a couple times were where German and American troops joined forces to fight the Waffen-SS.

That's how I see the Coalition States. There's good troopers and evil troopers. The problem is we can't tell them apart ,so how bad they are is up to us. If we want CS troopers to be evil bad guys, we can do that. If we want them to be heroes, we can do that too.

Curbludgeon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 5:29 pm Isn't there some named internet law about no matter how satirical a depiction of fascism is it will be increasingly taken at face value by consumers? Warhammer, as I understand it, is a good example of this. I'm sure back in the last millennium giving the supremacist nation a debilitating skull fetish was enough to paint them as unequivocally the bad guys, but a quarter century of shades of grey/whaddabout John Rabe probably suggests a reminder wouldn't go amiss.

One change I'd make to Rifts involves making explicit the relationship between energy from a ley line and personal PPE/ISP totals. It seems like a lot of people play as if a LLW can "top off" their personal PPE store whenever they're on a line. While PPE is described as being able to be collected to use in a spell or ritual to be cast at the time of collection, to be able to convert that PPE seems rife for abuse. Spells like Talisman and Energy Sphere can meet that need well enough. Conversely, RUE makes explicit that the amount of ISP drawn from a ley line can only be used in that round, and cannot apply to a personal store. I'd change that. This way, there's a fun contrast between PPE and ISP in this respect, where PPE can be readily used on site, but requires specialized knowledge to take away from a line, while ISP can't be gathered for massive effects but can be personally recharged in an effective act of accelerated meditation.

The "problem" with fascism being bad in fiction, is that fascism works by using otherism to paint anyone who isn't [insert group here] as a villain. The problem is that in fiction there are usually these huge monolithic evils, so the otherism instead of being propaganda based hyperbole, becomes certifiable fact. The only way to not make fascism appealing in these cases is to either show the fascists as incompetent, which begs the question of how they can continue to be a threat to the "good guys" of the setting (see saturday morning cartoons), or to not make evils so vast & powerful as to justify fascism as a means to survival. From 40k to Starship Troopers, to the CS, & more fascism works in those settings. It might not be nice to everyone, but its effective at protecting people from the demons that want to eat your soul & wear your skin as go-go boots, & at the end of the day the powerless farmer or factory worker is gonna support the guys who shoot demons, over the guys who make peace with them.

Again this is not advocating for fascism or otherism in the real world

Might I suggest that if you want to engage in a detailed defence of Facism that you 1)This thread isn't the place to do it and 2)Just don't.

Create a new thread in which I am a variety of others will be happy to denounce your Fascist apologia.

Wise_Owl wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:55 am Might I suggest that if you want to engage in a detailed defence of Facism that you 1)This thread isn't the place to do it and 2)Just don't.

Create a new thread in which I am a variety of others will be happy to denounce your Fascist apologia.

I'm not defending real fascism in any way shape or form. If you cannot differentiate between the objective philosophical discussion of politics in fantasy & scifi worlds, that is your failure, not mine. This is why I ended some of my heavier posts with a caveat AGAINST it. My last post was an answer to Curbludgeon's question of why fantasy/scifi fascism becomes appealing. It's appealing because the victims aren't human, & for some, that's all the reasoning they need to destroy them. Some people find it hard to empathize with inhuman entities. Some people find it hard to excuse the invasion by aliens to colonize our world.

Personally the Federation of Magic & Lazlo are some of my favorite places in the setting, personally I love magic and psionics, & wouldn't mind D-Bees. But I'm not going to pretend to not understand or empathize with the CS mindset. There are things on RIFTS earth a non heroic NPC farmer, ignorant of what we as the audience are aware of, justify them joining the CS. In the great tapestry of RIFTS, they are not evil, they are righteous liberators of their planet, not unlike the French Resistance

the mistake you're making is you're arguing using their framing of things, and their framing of things is itself evil. even if you academically disagree, you're tacitly advocating their position by using their language and "i don't MEAN it i'm just saying-" is itself a common method of fascists to disseminate their opinions.

just take the L and move on, there's no time with you "have to hand it to" the proseks.

EDIT: actually this is just proving my point for wanting the CS to take more black eyes. i don't want them to be de-nazied i want the fact they're nazis to be stripped of any veneer of acceptability by having people realistically in-setting respond instead of the plot constantly knotting itself up trying to "have the discussion they might have a point".

Orin J. wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:07 pm the mistake you're making is you're arguing using their framing of things, and their framing of things is itself evil. even if you academically disagree, you're tacitly advocating their position by using their language and "i don't MEAN it i'm just saying-" is itself a common method of fascists to disseminate their opinions.

just take the L and move on, there's no time with you "have to hand it to" the proseks.

EDIT: actually this is just proving my point for wanting the CS to take more black eyes. i don't want them to be de-nazied i want the fact they're nazis to be stripped of any veneer of acceptability by having people realistically in-setting respond instead of the plot constantly knotting itself up trying to "have the discussion they might have a point".

I don't give a crap about real life fascist, but if you can't empathize or critically think about other people that's your issue. The CS is not evil for trying to reclaim earth.

Have you ever read "Old Man's War"? It does a much better job than I of articulating the problem.

Aermas wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:39 pm Also, my previous point stands, how can the CS determine that ANY GIVEN CREATURE is "native"?

I mean, they literally made several slave races. They took DNA from native creatures and custom-built slave races, who they then control the production and reproduction of.

"We can't tell if it's native" kinda looses its force when you built them yourselves.

The "CS is only doing what it must" also is given lie by Lazlo, Houstown, and Arzno... "We have to kill all the D-Bees to save Earth for the humans" doesn't really work when you can say "Ok, what about these places that work just fine with humans and D-Bees side-by-side?"

Library Ogre wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:09 pm

Aermas wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2023 4:39 pm Also, my previous point stands, how can the CS determine that ANY GIVEN CREATURE is "native"?

I mean, they literally made several slave races. They took DNA from native creatures and custom-built slave races, who they then control the production and reproduction of.

"We can't tell if it's native" kinda looses its force when you built them yourselves.

The "CS is only doing what it must" also is given lie by Lazlo, Houstown, and Arzno... "We have to kill all the D-Bees to save Earth for the humans" doesn't really work when you can say "Ok, what about these places that work just fine with humans and D-Bees side-by-side?"

Oh there's no defending Bradford. Everything about that is evil. I was talking more about how is a CS citizen or grunt supposed to know the difference between a good D-Bee like the devilman & a real demon

I mean, they could educate themselves, but the CS specifically forbids education, and what education they allow is mostly propaganda.

This conversation is derailing this thread, with a conversation that has been going on ad infinitum since like 1996. It was tedious and a bit icky in 1996 for people to try and put forth the Coalition as the 'Good Guys' or 'Heroes, just doing what they had to survive!', in 2023 it's more than icky and in the greater context of North America at the moment, suspect. But hey, wanna tread over the well worn paths once more...

So would you agree, looking from an objective point of view, that Splyncryth is in fact the Hero within Rifts? I mean Atlantis provides a multi-racial utopia to countless beings. Yes, there are humans being eaten there and enslaves, but by all reports it appears on balance humans in Atlantis are treated better than cows are the modern United States, and frankly Cows are A LOT closer to humans in pretty much every way than a human is to a Slugorth.

Splyncryth himself was born tens of thousands of years ago. He was tens of thousands of years old when humans domesticated the Dog. He preadtes written human languages on earth by several factors. He owns worlds covered with Billions of beings. A human civilization of a few million is like an anthill to him in terms of threat and in terms of moral obligation. Not only will he outlive every human alive in the coalition as of any given moment, he will outlive their entirety of their civilization. A civilization grown from the ashes of a 'great' human civilization that blew themselves up. To borrow from the Great Octavia Butler a bit; Looks like an attempt at species-wide suicide to me.

We also know that Splyncryth's mercantile empire acts as a counter-balance to a host of other hostile trans-dimensional powers and that he actively participates in a variety of things to curtail greater violations of Rifts Earth. He is at least as moral as any meat-eating multi-millionaire in the present US, and probably quite a bit more moral actually. Probably the biggest tick against him is that his mercantile interests are truly capitalistic in nature and he seems not to discriminate and thus almost assuredly transactions within his purview have led to greater evils.

For further curiosities regarding this debate, consider consulting Jonathan Swift.

Thread locked due to the heated nature some of these posts are taking.
Remember folks, this is just a game.