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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:41 pm
by Toc Rat
Mech-Viper wrote:you know it wouldnt surprize me if the Coalition has anti-magic protection circles or symbols hidden in the walls of chi-town knowing Coalition once had a number of mages fighting for them at one time


Hmmm, an interesting possibility. Unlikely but possible. I say unlikely because any such active and stationary defenses would have been found out by now by the numerous Dogpack and Psi-Net patrols. Secondly immediately following the FoM attack there was an incredible back lash against magic giving birth to the Chi-Town empire we know today. Any such protections would have been destroyed by an angry populace and military.

So while possible it is a remote chance at best. Then again this is Rifts and more to the point the CS we are talking about. If anyone gets special rule bending, mind blowing extra treats by KS, it's them.

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:01 pm
by Kagashi
Toc Rat wrote:Ah yes...the "Magic and supernatural guys can regenerate" argument. Here's the problem with that...You can only renegerate if you are ALIVE at the end of the fight.


Because techs can do so much more when they are dead?

Toc Rat wrote:Second, since that wasn't enough, KS introduced U and DU rounds in the NGR/Traix book way back in the day. Now supernaturals can't simply run away and regenerate.


Sure, in Germany...on special assignments only...if the character wants to risk radiation poisoning...even the CS will not use DU and U rounds. They were not ment to be common rounds.

Toc Rat wrote:Third, spellcasters have a very limited supply of PPE. Even if they are lucky enough to be fighting on a nexus point. So while yes, for a short time they can "replenish" their MDC armor of Ithan, they will quickly run out of PPE.


PPE Batteries, Ley Lines, Nexus Points, Pyramids...there are so many other readily available sources of PPE...up to THREE times there normal limit! Saying that mages loose because they run out of PPE is just as moot as saying that your Glitter Boy will evenutally run out of slugs...except the mage does not have pay of replacement "ammo".

Toc Rat wrote:Forth, related to point three, while the mage is busy casting a spell to re-up his armor, he just used oneof his two magical actions that round. That means he may only take one more. Which he can either cast some sort of offensive spell or replenish his MDC yet again when it goes down later that same round because his Tech opponent just keeps pulling the trigger.


Now that is indeed true. Thats why there are equalizers like melee weapons, techno-wizard weapons, ley lines/nexus points, or the fact you make your demon/elemental lackies do the dirty work for you. Anyway, a mage that goes into battle without regular armor is insane. At least go in with fury beetle armor or some other natural armor that does not interfere with magic casting.

I really hope the Optional PPE channeling rules in Rifter 21 (its 21, right?) make there way into Ultimate, except they drop that "Optional" part.

Toc Rat wrote:To summerize, magic will lose against tech in a head on fight. It's ability to "repair" MDC during the fight has too many drawbacks to be a deciding factor during the battle.


Yep, thats why I said in a stand-up, toe-to-toe fight, tech will prolly win...but thats the view of a roll player, not a role player ;)

Seiously though, in a war of attrition, magic and supernatural is the way to go. The CS should have never won the war in Tolkeen, unless it ended in book one.

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:13 pm
by Toc Rat
Kagashi wrote:Seiously though, in a war of attrition, magic and supernatural is the way to go. The CS should have never won the war in Tolkeen, unless it ended in book one.


That I can agree with. The best the Coalition should have been able to achieve was mutually assured destruction. I would elaborate more on why I believe that but the SoT horse has already been beat to death so many times the poor thing has become a lich. :lol:

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:11 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Toc Rat wrote:Ah yes...the "Magic and supernatural guys can regenerate" argument. Here's the problem with that...You can only renegerate if you are ALIVE at the end of the fight.


True enough, but it's still an advantage. Especially for dragons and other creatures who can teleport. Or mages with talismans of Time Slip or Invisibility: Superior for those quick escapes.
Or for vampires, who can turn to mist.

But a more important factore is that a mage can cast protective spells over his armor, so he gets the best of both worlds.

Second, since that wasn't enough, KS introduced U and DU rounds in the NGR/Traix book way back in the day. Now supernaturals can't simply run away and regenerate.


And all the supernatural creatures in the NGR weep.
The rest of the world moves on as normal.

Third, spellcasters have a very limited supply of PPE. Even if they are lucky enough to be fighting on a nexus point. So while yes, for a short time they can "replenish" their MDC armor of Ithan, they will quickly run out of PPE.


Agreed.
But it's better than NOT having magic.
Again, Armor + Magical Protection = Better than just armor alone.

Forth, related to point three, while the mage is busy casting a spell to re-up his armor, he just used oneof his two magical actions that round. That means he may only take one more. Which he can either cast some sort of offensive spell or replenish his MDC yet again when it goes down later that same round because his Tech opponent just keeps pulling the trigger.


Sure. Unless he wants to make aimed shots, in which case it currently takes 2 attacks per aimed shot.
Also, you're ignoring talismans, TW devices, scrolls, etc. that only take 1 attack/action to use.

To summerize, magic will lose against tech in a head on fight. It's ability to "repair" MDC during the fight has too many drawbacks to be a deciding factor during the battle.


Altarian AoI Amulet.
100 MDC, 3x/day.
No waiting.

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:15 pm
by Sureshot
I kind of agree with Toc Rat. If the magic user has time to prepare he can pretty much kick the tech using person halfway to sunday. If he is prepared. Otherwise hands down without armor or magic armor or scrolls or amulets, tw devices, or summoned creatures the magic using character is at a serious disadvantage. Especially when they only get two spell attacks.

The magic system works great in low tech worlds like Palladium Fantasy and somewhat average in a medium tech world like Heroes Unlimited. They problem as I see it is that a lot of the spells were just copy and pasted without even being updated to a modern world. Armor of ithan is great in Palladium Fantasy 100 sdc per level I think. Whereas in Rifts in 10 mdc per level. A large amount of the spells are useless against technology.

What should have been done imo is have some way to boost a spell temporarily so that it is more effective in the face of tech. Armor of Ithan costing more ppe but having energy weapons work less effectively against it or have energy bolt with more range but cast more ppe. Either way the effects are temporary and they cost more ppe which would not be unbalancing imo. A similar system could be used for psionics.

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:27 pm
by Toc Rat
Sureshot wrote:They problem as I see it is that a lot of the spells were just copy and pasted without even being updated to a modern world. Armor of ithan is great in Palladium Fantasy 100 sdc per level I think. Whereas in Rifts in 10 mdc per level. A large amount of the spells are useless against technology.



Exactly. Cut n Paste, the Palladium motto.

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:11 am
by cornholioprime
Toc Rat wrote:Ah yes...the "Magic and supernatural guys can regenerate" argument. Here's the problem with that...You can only renegerate if you are ALIVE at the end of the fight.

Second, since that wasn't enough, KS introduced U and DU rounds in the NGR/Traix book way back in the day. Now supernaturals can't simply run away and regenerate.

Third, spellcasters have a very limited supply of PPE. Even if they are lucky enough to be fighting on a nexus point. So while yes, for a short time they can "replenish" their MDC armor of Ithan, they will quickly run out of PPE.

Forth, related to point three, while the mage is busy casting a spell to re-up his armor, he just used oneof his two magical actions that round. That means he may only take one more. Which he can either cast some sort of offensive spell or replenish his MDC yet again when it goes down later that same round because his Tech opponent just keeps pulling the trigger.

To summerize, magic will lose against tech in a head on fight. It's ability to "repair" MDC during the fight has too many drawbacks to be a deciding factor during the battle.


cornholioprime, borrowing a well-coined Phrase/Sig from RainOfSteel, wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:28 am
by Kalinda
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Scooter the Outlaw wrote:
RainOfSteel wrote:The anti-magic card?

Ah, that brings back memories:

<flasback>

Turn 1: Black Lotus, Forest, Channel, Fireball, you lose!

</flashback>

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.


If the CS was smart, they'd have been packing lots more Counterspells... you know, if Karl Prosek played I bet he'd be one of those U/W control freaks.


:thwak:
The CS hate magic!!


They play Pokemon...


:lol: :lol:

That would explain why the created the dog boys and other mutant animals.

Now if they can just figure out how to get them into the little balls...

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:44 am
by cornholioprime
Kalinda wrote:
:lol: :lol:

That would explain why the created the dog boys and other mutant animals.

Now if they can just figure out how to get them into the little balls...
Poor, poor Kalinda.

I'm ashamed of you right now.

If Emperor Prosek wants to get Dog Boys into little Poke-Balls, then they'll be in there all right....it just involves a high-capacity Press or two.....

:frazz:

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:55 am
by Toc Rat
cornholioprime wrote:
Toc Rat wrote:Ah yes...the "Magic and supernatural guys can regenerate" argument. Here's the problem with that...You can only renegerate if you are ALIVE at the end of the fight.

Second, since that wasn't enough, KS introduced U and DU rounds in the NGR/Traix book way back in the day. Now supernaturals can't simply run away and regenerate.

Third, spellcasters have a very limited supply of PPE. Even if they are lucky enough to be fighting on a nexus point. So while yes, for a short time they can "replenish" their MDC armor of Ithan, they will quickly run out of PPE.

Forth, related to point three, while the mage is busy casting a spell to re-up his armor, he just used oneof his two magical actions that round. That means he may only take one more. Which he can either cast some sort of offensive spell or replenish his MDC yet again when it goes down later that same round because his Tech opponent just keeps pulling the trigger.

To summerize, magic will lose against tech in a head on fight. It's ability to "repair" MDC during the fight has too many drawbacks to be a deciding factor during the battle.


cornholioprime, borrowing a well-coined Phrase/Sig from RainOfSteel, wrote:
An excellent insight that hits the nail on the head with a rune-hammer.


Thanks cornholio :)

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:02 am
by Kalinda
cornholioprime wrote:
Kalinda wrote:
:lol: :lol:

That would explain why the created the dog boys and other mutant animals.

Now if they can just figure out how to get them into the little balls...
Poor, poor Kalinda.

I'm ashamed of you right now.

If Emperor Prosek wants to get Dog Boys into little Poke-Balls, then they'll be in there all right....it just involves a high-capacity Press or two.....

:frazz:


Yes but it's no fun to play with them if you do that.

:D "Private Rex, I choose... EEWWW..." :shock:



We really need that 'puke' emoticon.

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:04 am
by cornholioprime
Kalinda wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
Kalinda wrote:
:lol: :lol:

That would explain why the created the dog boys and other mutant animals.

Now if they can just figure out how to get them into the little balls...
Poor, poor Kalinda.

I'm ashamed of you right now.

If Emperor Prosek wants to get Dog Boys into little Poke-Balls, then they'll be in there all right....it just involves a high-capacity Press or two.....

:frazz:


Yes but it's no fun to play with them if you do that.

:D "Private Rex, I choose... EEWWW..." :shock:



We really need that 'puke' emoticon.
FUNNY!!!

Team Rocket's Jesse: "Prepare for Trouble."

Team Rocket's James: "Force-stuffed into a Bubble."

Re: Magic VS Technology

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:25 pm
by SirTenzan
C.R.A.F.T. wrote:Why is it that a majority of posters here have an easier time believing that magic has NO limits, but when it comes to creating a technological advance, you can't introduce one that will change the "feel" of the game?

I have tried to take current technology in development and put it into a Rifts game, but was 'shot' down because it would have changed the way the Coalition States would have viewed the rest of the region.

Is this merely hatred for the way that the CS acts and not wanting to give them any advantages or a personal bias against technology in such a magic-rich game?


I have no real bias one way or the other. I agree that technology has an advantage in some areas and magic has advantages in others. A good example is that a high tech jet fighter aircraft will outperform a purely magical aircraft MOST of the time. However a high tech jet fighter souped up with magical systems becomes a terrible weapon to behold.

In my Rifter article on Air Combat I include a new system that allows CS aircraft to actually pick up on the electromagnetic distortions caused by magic, including Invisibility Superior.

During the Tolkeen War a techno-wizard devised a specialized system that added invisibility superior to some of the tech fighters that Tolkeen deployed. This was done in conjunction with PPE power cells similar to the PPE clips produced by Stormspire, thereby allowing even non-magic using pilots to 'cloak' their aircraft.

The result was a fighter that could sneak up on CS aircraft and attack without being detected until the attack was made - oftentimes resulting in suprise attack effects. With the flip of a switch, after the attack, the invisibility was resumed, thereby basically preventing a counter-attack. The results were horrific and terribly demoralizing to CS fighter pilots. The original squadron that developed this tactic became so dreaded, in fact, that many CS fighter pilots started to abort missions at the first sign of Tolkeenite fighter aircraft.

This was a temporary imbalance, in favor of the magical air forces of Tolkeen. After the Sorcerer's Revenge campaign (Sorcerous Fury campain, according to our group's timeline.), the CS struggled, with Triax help, to devise a system that could detect these mystically empowered aircraft before they attacked. They succeeded in creating a short ranged (1 NM - about 6,000'.) detection device that could literally detect the electromagnetic distortions caused by magical effects. This used basic existing technology of today, Magnetic Anomalys Detection, BUT slightly more refined and specific to these distortions. The only drawbacks were it's weight - about 250 Lb. making it only possible to mount it in a full sized jet fighter aircraft (OR in specially converted old style Sky Cycles that only carried this system and no weaponry, that could act as a warning aircraft for an entire squadron of Sky/Rocket Cycles), it's comparatively short range, and that it was essentially blind to mystically empowered devices or individuals inside of Ley Lines. (Towards the end of the war larger systems that weighed closer to a ton were developed that could detect these sorts of effects up to 50 miles away, that carried on board of specially modified DHTs, could act as a sort of Early Warning Aircraft for an entire front. Similar systems could be installed in fixed positions such as cities to ferret out magic users and to detect approaching magical vehicles.) In time these systems may have a range as great as 10 miles for a small +/-200 Lb. system, and larger systems +/- 1 ton, may have a range of 150 miles or more, but for the time being, in our campaign anyway, this technology is in it's infancy.

Do I KNOW if magic creates a sort of E-mag distortion? No, I don't, but it was a way to balance things out, and it was a fun mid-war arm's race, with each side reaching for an ultimate advantage over the other. There was more to the race than I've mentioned here, but this is sufficient for now.

My point in revealing all of this is to say that both sides of the argument have advantages, and IF you figure out a way for one side to have too terribly much of an advantage, work with the other side to level the playing field before it's too late. It makes it fun that way... Our Tolkeenite pilots had a blast tearing up the CS Air Forces, but the campaign didn't become truly epic until after their enemy was able to level the playing field to some degree.