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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:07 am
by Necrite
God's non-inclusion can be easily explained. What need is there for a class that worships a god who provides nothing to his followers? The Christian God, by his own decree, will not interfere with our affairs. So if he won't show up, won't grant his followers powers, won't do any of the fancy stuff that the other gods do, what do we need a huge section on that for.
And besides - who here really needs to buy a book to tell them how a fictional Christian would act? Look at 3/4 of the people around you (In North America, at least), and you know.
Of course He's not in the books in any significant amount. The information's not needed, and it would offend someone.
We'll see RECON Modern Combat before we see God in Pantheons or Dragons & Gods.
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:12 am
by Zer0 Kay
Necrite wrote:God's non-inclusion can be easily explained. What need is there for a class that worships a god who provides nothing to his followers? The Christian God, by his own decree, will not interfere with our affairs. So if he won't show up, won't grant his followers powers, won't do any of the fancy stuff that the other gods do, what do we need a huge section on that for.
And besides - who here really needs to buy a book to tell them how a fictional Christian would act? Look at 3/4 of the people around you (In North America, at least), and you know.
Of course He's not in the books in any significant amount. The information's not needed, and it would offend someone.
We'll see RECON Modern Combat before we see God in Pantheons or Dragons & Gods.
or Mechanoids Space before we see that. Oh here is a good one Manhunter sourcebook.
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:18 am
by CS John
There are obvious reasons the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god is not mentioned in Rifts (that I'm sure have been mentioned time and time again, sorry didn't go through all 5 pages of this thread)....but I'm wondering...
Would anyone be interested in doing a netbook on this idea? Perhaps something along the line of, since man focused more and more on technology and himself; 'God' got angry and abandoned man, withdrawing his protection that he had blanketed us with since the dawn of monotheism.
It would sure fit in the timeline, since way back in the day (before monotheism took off), on Rifts Earth there were dragons, vampires, demons, etc. Maybe 'God' had something to do with keeping Earth hidden, inaccesible, ley lines weak, to keep the scurge of the universe out.
Just throwing this out there, tell me what you guys think.
After all, on the Palladium world, their ley lines are very weak as well and they have monsters and magic. So why not pre-Rifts Earth? Yes I know people will say "well Palladium's lines aren't AS weak as Earth's were" but hey, there has been nothing in any book to quantify line power, so why not go for this idea....
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:01 am
by Natalya
CS John wrote:Yes I know people will say "well Palladium's lines aren't AS weak as Earth's were" but hey, there has been nothing in any book to quantify line power, so why not go for this idea....
Good idea, but unfortunately, there are book sections that quantify line power. Compare RUE, pg 186 and PF2e, pg 181-182, and BtS1, pg 132-135. There is less available during normal times in BtS than there is in RUE and PF2e (those two are equal). And the modifiers from special events are lowest in BtS1, and highest in PF2e (RUE falls in the middle).
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:59 pm
by CS John
ah ok. i dont have the benefit of BTS and RUE, I'm going to oldschool Rifts and Worldbooks here sorry
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:35 pm
by Jack Daniels
CS John wrote:Perhaps something along the line of, since man focused more and more on technology and himself; 'God' got angry and abandoned man, withdrawing his protection that he had blanketed us with since the dawn of monotheism.
Maybe 'God' had something to do with keeping Earth hidden, inaccesible, ley lines weak, to keep the scurge of the universe out.
Just throwing this out there, tell me what you guys think.
I think that's a pretty cool explination. Keeps the explination entirely within the continuity of the game and doesn't harsh on anyone's beliefs. Good thoughts.
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:43 pm
by cornholioprime
Lord Nuetral wrote:AdeptPaladin wrote:Lord Nuetral wrote:If we were going to be... faithful... (forgive the pun) to the mythos then the options would be rather limited.
Supreme Being such as YHWH, or "Yahweh" as you misspelling heathens insist on calling Him, shouldn't have stats. He's a SUPREME BEING. His powers are limitless, his motivations and designs unknowable. It's like an ant trying to figure out why the kid with the manifying glass just vaporized his buddy.
Now if you stated out an avatar of YHWH. He or she would just be a regular human who could perform miracles. What type of miracles? Any kind he wanted.
Angels would probably be a lot like a human but they'd basically be conduits for YHWH's power. Extensions of His will. They can't be killed and they can't be defeated in battle.
As a side note, it seems many people have trouble with the concept of God being all knowing and man's free will. As if they are mutually exclusive. They are not. Here's how I was told to think of it.
Ok let's say you have a movie, let's call the movie "Existence".
Existence has a very large cast but the script only has descriptions of the settings. The dialogue and reactions to the setting are left entirely up to the actors (that's us). Imagine if you will that God not only has the Director's Cut of the movie but he also has a remote control and he's seen the movie an infinite number of times. So even though he knows what Joe Smith the Glitterboy Pilot will do on July 13th, 2645, he didn't make Joe do it.
Here's another example, Bob the Rocket Scientist can tell you almost exactly what a rocket will do if he has access to all the variables it will encounter during it's flight but that doesn't mean Bob MADE the rocket do those things when it encountered those variables.
Such logic breaks down when one considers the philosophical ramifactions of
Schroeding's 'cat' experiment. The essence of the experiment? By observing reality, we therefore define it and force it to be a certain way. If God has 'viewed' all of existance, then reality is static because observing it has defined the outcome of events. In simpler terms; free will is a meaningless 'feel-good' phrase.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in the Almighty.. but that doesn't stop me from questioning some of the doctrine I'm fed with what I've learned from science.
Schroedinger's Cat is about on par ridiculousness-wise as "does a tree make noise in the forest if there is no one there to hear it". It's extremely human centric childishness wrapped in the thin veneer of pseudo-science.
YOu've REALLY got to read the premise of Schroedinger's Cat, AND WHY IT MAKES PERFECT "SENSE" IN THE WORLD OF QUANTUM PHYSICS (see also the Heisenberg Uncertainty Princiole), before you go rail blindly against it........
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:26 pm
by CS John
i read about the cat experiment it and it does sound ridiculous, and this argument developing is a great illustration as to why palladium chose not to include judeo-christianity in its games.
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:30 pm
by Zer0 Kay
CS John wrote:i read about the cat experiment it and it does sound ridiculous, and this argument developing is a great illustration as to why palladium chose not to include judeo-christianity in its games.
Why because people would talk about it and buy it anyway?
Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:09 pm
by cornholioprime
Lord Nuetral wrote:cornholioprime wrote:Lord Nuetral wrote:AdeptPaladin wrote:Lord Nuetral wrote:If we were going to be... faithful... (forgive the pun) to the mythos then the options would be rather limited.
Supreme Being such as YHWH, or "Yahweh" as you misspelling heathens insist on calling Him, shouldn't have stats. He's a SUPREME BEING. His powers are limitless, his motivations and designs unknowable. It's like an ant trying to figure out why the kid with the manifying glass just vaporized his buddy.
Now if you stated out an avatar of YHWH. He or she would just be a regular human who could perform miracles. What type of miracles? Any kind he wanted.
Angels would probably be a lot like a human but they'd basically be conduits for YHWH's power. Extensions of His will. They can't be killed and they can't be defeated in battle.
As a side note, it seems many people have trouble with the concept of God being all knowing and man's free will. As if they are mutually exclusive. They are not. Here's how I was told to think of it.
Ok let's say you have a movie, let's call the movie "Existence".
Existence has a very large cast but the script only has descriptions of the settings. The dialogue and reactions to the setting are left entirely up to the actors (that's us). Imagine if you will that God not only has the Director's Cut of the movie but he also has a remote control and he's seen the movie an infinite number of times. So even though he knows what Joe Smith the Glitterboy Pilot will do on July 13th, 2645, he didn't make Joe do it.
Here's another example, Bob the Rocket Scientist can tell you almost exactly what a rocket will do if he has access to all the variables it will encounter during it's flight but that doesn't mean Bob MADE the rocket do those things when it encountered those variables.
Such logic breaks down when one considers the philosophical ramifactions of
Schroeding's 'cat' experiment. The essence of the experiment? By observing reality, we therefore define it and force it to be a certain way. If God has 'viewed' all of existance, then reality is static because observing it has defined the outcome of events. In simpler terms; free will is a meaningless 'feel-good' phrase.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in the Almighty.. but that doesn't stop me from questioning some of the doctrine I'm fed with what I've learned from science.
Schroedinger's Cat is about on par ridiculousness-wise as "does a tree make noise in the forest if there is no one there to hear it". It's extremely human centric childishness wrapped in the thin veneer of pseudo-science.
YOu've REALLY got to read the premise of Schroedinger's Cat, AND WHY IT MAKES PERFECT "SENSE" IN THE WORLD OF QUANTUM PHYSICS (see also the Heisenberg Uncertainty Princiole), before you go rail blindly against it........
I have read it. It assumes that the world ceases to move along without our presence. The radioactive atom will decay whether or not a human is observing it. The sensor will detect alpha waves and it will trigger the hammer to smash the flask containing the prussic acid. And the cat will die whether we see it happen or not.
Don't ever assume something about someone else's knowledge on a subject on these boards again. Because we all know what happens when you assume something.
Nuetral.
Really.
It seems clear -to me at the very least -that you either didn't actually read the Schroedinger's Cat Scenario AND/OR you didn't bone up on how Quantum Physics actually works -and there are PLENTY of Books out there for those of us who deem ourselves Laymen, including myself.
And not to sound patronizing or insulting, but would you like to know why the Shroedinger's Cat Premise makes PERFECT sense on the Quantum Level???
Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:09 am
by cornholioprime
Lord Nuetral wrote:cornholioprime wrote:Lord Nuetral wrote:cornholioprime wrote:Lord Nuetral wrote:AdeptPaladin wrote:Lord Nuetral wrote:If we were going to be... faithful... (forgive the pun) to the mythos then the options would be rather limited.
Supreme Being such as YHWH, or "Yahweh" as you misspelling heathens insist on calling Him, shouldn't have stats. He's a SUPREME BEING. His powers are limitless, his motivations and designs unknowable. It's like an ant trying to figure out why the kid with the manifying glass just vaporized his buddy.
Now if you stated out an avatar of YHWH. He or she would just be a regular human who could perform miracles. What type of miracles? Any kind he wanted.
Angels would probably be a lot like a human but they'd basically be conduits for YHWH's power. Extensions of His will. They can't be killed and they can't be defeated in battle.
As a side note, it seems many people have trouble with the concept of God being all knowing and man's free will. As if they are mutually exclusive. They are not. Here's how I was told to think of it.
Ok let's say you have a movie, let's call the movie "Existence".
Existence has a very large cast but the script only has descriptions of the settings. The dialogue and reactions to the setting are left entirely up to the actors (that's us). Imagine if you will that God not only has the Director's Cut of the movie but he also has a remote control and he's seen the movie an infinite number of times. So even though he knows what Joe Smith the Glitterboy Pilot will do on July 13th, 2645, he didn't make Joe do it.
Here's another example, Bob the Rocket Scientist can tell you almost exactly what a rocket will do if he has access to all the variables it will encounter during it's flight but that doesn't mean Bob MADE the rocket do those things when it encountered those variables.
Such logic breaks down when one considers the philosophical ramifactions of
Schroeding's 'cat' experiment. The essence of the experiment? By observing reality, we therefore define it and force it to be a certain way. If God has 'viewed' all of existance, then reality is static because observing it has defined the outcome of events. In simpler terms; free will is a meaningless 'feel-good' phrase.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in the Almighty.. but that doesn't stop me from questioning some of the doctrine I'm fed with what I've learned from science.
Schroedinger's Cat is about on par ridiculousness-wise as "does a tree make noise in the forest if there is no one there to hear it". It's extremely human centric childishness wrapped in the thin veneer of pseudo-science.
YOu've REALLY got to read the premise of Schroedinger's Cat, AND WHY IT MAKES PERFECT "SENSE" IN THE WORLD OF QUANTUM PHYSICS (see also the Heisenberg Uncertainty Princiole), before you go rail blindly against it........
I have read it. It assumes that the world ceases to move along without our presence. The radioactive atom will decay whether or not a human is observing it. The sensor will detect alpha waves and it will trigger the hammer to smash the flask containing the prussic acid. And the cat will die whether we see it happen or not.
Don't ever assume something about someone else's knowledge on a subject on these boards again. Because we all know what happens when you assume something.
Nuetral.
Really.
It seems clear -to me at the very least -that you either didn't actually read the Schroedinger's Cat Scenario AND/OR you didn't bone up on how Quantum Physics actually works -and there are PLENTY of Books out there for those of us who deem ourselves Laymen, including myself.
And not to sound patronizing or insulting, but would you like to know why the Shroedinger's Cat Premise makes PERFECT sense on the Quantum Level???
Schrödinger's CatSchrödinger, one of the scientists who helped form quantum physics, wasn't very happy about quantum theory and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (none of them were). He thought that the idea was absurd. To demonstrate his point, he used the picture of a cat in a closed box. Inside the box is also a radioactive isotope, a detector, and some poison gas. Every hour, the isotope has a 50-50 chance of setting off the detector, which would break the vial and thus kill the cat. Since you can't observe the cat inside of the closed box, it is in a state of uncertainty: both dead and alive. It would only snap out of it when you opened the box to take a peek. This doesn't work with cats, (so don't try it!) but it does with the subatomic particles and such.
And???
You stated that you interpreted the Schroedinger's Cat Thought Experiment to infer that the "....world does not move along without our presence."
Neither the Schroedinger's Cat Thought Experiment, nor Quantum Physics and Uncertainty Principle, say any such thing.
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:26 am
by grandmaster z0b
silverlb wrote:WOW! The man is really coming down hard on us these days. I always thought moderators kept things moderate, all I see is missing posts.
Anyway, the CS trooper (and this is all game application talk not religous banter, I don't want to be deleted, knuckle heads) that writes home in the FOT series talks about God and JC. I think he says "God Damn" at one point, or maybe "God Fearing." Erin Tarn talks about Wormwood being "Hell" I would assume the Judao-Christian-Islamic hell. I think she says "God help us", but I was pretty busy filpping to the stats at that point (thats a joke, everybody)
Also, on a very cheeky sudo-religous-political point(here goes my post, read fast)
The CS seems to be on it's own "FAITH BASED INITITIVE!!!" although they get +2 on there inititive roll for this(oh they keep coming) Instead of hunting terrorists, they are hunting magic users. I think that this may have been a political dig on the part of PB.....could we be playing the game of a Democrat???????
P.S. no seriously, read fast. While I didn't break the rules of the message board, I sure bent them.
You should be fine, your one of the few that have kept this thread Rifts-specific.
One thing I will say though about this subject is that there is
some truth to the idea that the gods of polytheistic religions are generally more human and less omnipotent than the creator god of a monotheistic religion, which is generally all seeing and all knowing.
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:46 pm
by Mudang
silverlb wrote:Well, there are some good things. Being Christian is relaxeing, maybe a +2 save vs. insanity.
Or -10 depending on which historical figures/groups you wish to talk about.
Of course the insane have found their way into every religion and large group at one point or another.
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:55 pm
by kdyal
Here are some things to ponder:
1. Most studies of mythology point to the gods as being archetypes and anthropomorphs of forces of nature, so they are bigger and more powerful but in the end just like us. Monotheism works with the concept that God is beyond us, not just a bigger version of us. This makes statting Thor or Odin much easer than Yahweh or Jesus.
2. While worship of the gods is making a comeback, it is very obscure, and thus there are not a whole lot of people to be offended by one game designer's interpretation of their deity.
2a. While I do not know about Hinduism, I know that Chinese and Japanese culture do not consider their respective theologies being tweaked within the context of entertainment as being offensive (Dragonball, anyone?), so no harm, no foul with Buddhist, Taoist or Shinto deities.
And BTW: free will and omniscience do not conflict if the omniscient being is as outside of linear time as the other spatial dimensions...
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:35 pm
by kdyal
BTW: I know that Buddhism does not involve deities (or at least it didn't until it came to China...)
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:01 am
by Zer0 Kay
Gee I've been told by the forces that be that I'm not allowed to state what gods certain religions beleive in so I guess I can't participate in this thread
Last I checked Bhudism is a philosophy not a religion.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:15 am
by Spectre
...Journey to the West, a novel written around... I think Tang dynasty. In that novel, the Buddha and various Boddhisatvas appear. The Monkey King fights many Chinese deities, and even beats alot of them.
This story is actually the Chinese version of an early Hindu myth. Many of the players stay the same but the names and other aspects change.
Ex. Son Goku (monkey king) is actually Hannaman(?)
Just though i'd throw that out there.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:42 am
by Mech-Viper Prime
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:37 pm
by Zer0 Kay
Some still are the word cult just got bad press so no one likes to use it for it's intended purpose which is a small startup religion or something akin to that.
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:34 pm
by Jack Daniels
kdyal wrote:1. Most studies of mythology point to the gods as being archetypes and anthropomorphs of forces of nature, so they are bigger and more powerful but in the end just like us. Monotheism works with the concept that God is beyond us, not just a bigger version of us. This makes statting Thor or Odin much easer than Yahweh or Jesus.
That's a good point about how polytheistic gods are viewed relative to humans and how montheistic gods are not relative. That said, Jesus was a man, and as a historical figure it should be relativly easy to assign stats. Has average PS and PP, above average PE and PB, above average IQ (maybe), friggin ginormous MA and ME. High skills in carpentry and public speaking. What else?
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:42 am
by Flick
I would have to agree with the previously mentioned ideas that trying to put stats on God (yes I am a Christian so I remembered that the G is capital) would be diffiuclt at best. The Greek gods work rather well since they are a pantheon with a focus on something specific like Apollo is the sun god or Zeus is the god of the sky. These naturally lead in to specific powers and abilities. How would you assign God powers? The other advantage to skipping Christianity is that you can never get it right. Consider how many denominations there are that claim to be Christians and then try to pick one view of God to portray. Is God a God of grace or judgement? Do we use a literal view of the Bible or not? It's a wise choice to skip putting my God in to the Rifts setting directly. Let those of us who believe work him in as we see fit. Grace and peace to you!
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:59 pm
by Svartalf
the JD god would never get into a pally product...
a) too many people would scream sacrilege
b) he's supposed to be so omni anything that statting him out would be even more ridiculous than doing it for the old ones
c) inside consistency... he's supposed to me more powerful than everything and to have destroyed most pagan gods, so why are there old ones and sploogs and Alien Intelligences still around... that god is just a game killor
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:01 pm
by Svartalf
Zer0 Kay wrote:Gee I've been told by the forces that be that I'm not allowed to state what gods certain religions beleive in so I guess I can't participate in this thread
Last I checked Bhudism is a philosophy not a religion.
depends what version you take...
the basic stuff sure is a philosophy...
but when you make it into a rigmarole with big temples and statues and gold and rituals and whatnot, it's become a religion alright.
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:18 pm
by Zer0 Kay
svartalf wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:Gee I've been told by the forces that be that I'm not allowed to state what gods certain religions beleive in so I guess I can't participate in this thread
Last I checked Bhudism is a philosophy not a religion.
depends what version you take...
the basic stuff sure is a philosophy...
but when you make it into a rigmarole with big temples and statues and gold and rituals and whatnot, it's become a religion alright.
Buddah is a philosopher though not a deity or a mesiah. Making him deific is akin to making Plato... hey I'm a Platist... never mind sounds stupid
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:35 pm
by Svartalf
Zer0 Kay wrote:]Buddah is a philosopher though not a deity or a mesiah. Making him deific is akin to making Plato... hey I'm a Platist... never mind sounds stupid
ask 95% of buddhists, and they'll tell you he was divine
plato was a fool and a crock'o'crap who got famous because he was the only guy to write down what Socrtates had said... IF he wrote it down correctly and without adding his own crap...
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:53 am
by Zer0 Kay
Kikkoman wrote:There are religious aspects of it that are practiced. Not worth debating. Really the best part is that there's no Buddhist 'pope' to tell you if you're doing it 'right' or 'wrong' and nobody's going to kill you over it
Back to the topic...
an idea...
the Beard Juicer
Juicer-like stats, with a sporty Samson-esque beard.
Keep that beard safe! Or you lose your powers and go through painful beard withdrawl (untill it grows back)
you could even tie in the "is God omnipotent?" into Rifts. Since the only 'evidence' of his existence will be through Angels, empowered humans and 'miracles', the PC's can question whether the Angels aren't just some kind of D-Bee.
Here's a picture of a Beard Juicer, betrayed by that fiendish woman, being dispatched by CS troops.
But NOBODY expects the
SPANISH INQUISITION
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:51 am
by Svartalf
Kikkoman wrote:svartalf wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:]Buddah is a philosopher though not a deity or a mesiah. Making him deific is akin to making Plato... hey I'm a Platist... never mind sounds stupid
ask 95% of buddhists, and they'll tell you he was divine
If so, the goal of Buddhism would then be to attain the same 'divine' status as reached by the Buddha.
You would also have to realise that 'divine' has different meanings between Judeo-Christian teachings and Buddhism.
I'd agree, but centuries and diluting in very superstitious cultures have watered down the difference... remember, Hindus are rather superstitiou/ritualistic to begin with (and buddhism has all but disappeared from India, and when you see buddhist legends from China, Japan, or other buddhist countries, you see the buddhas and boddhisattvas wielding supernatural power against the forces of darkness like the best angels withs swords of flame... people have forgotten the philosophy and believe in the supernatural element, only remember that acceptance and detachment are the key. back
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:59 am
by Zer0 Kay
Kikkoman wrote:svartalf wrote:Zer0 Kay wrote:]Buddah is a philosopher though not a deity or a mesiah. Making him deific is akin to making Plato... hey I'm a Platist... never mind sounds stupid
ask 95% of buddhists, and they'll tell you he was divine
If so, the goal of Buddhism would then be to attain the same 'divine' status as reached by the Buddha.
You would also have to realise that 'divine' has different meanings between Judeo-Christian teachings and Buddhism.
back on track....
This website summerises all of the Orders.
http://www.steliart.com/angelology_angelic_orders.htmlIt seems the most active sorts of Angels in RIFTS would be Powers and Archangels.
I picked out things that stuck out
Seraphim- 6 wings. 2 cover the face, 2 cover the feet, 2 are for flying. Another description is that they appear as 6 wings of light with eyes.
Cherubim-bodies of a winged bull, an eagle, or a sphinx and the faces of men or lions. As is clear from Ezekiel's encounter, the Cherubim possess four wings and four faces, symbolizing their eternal vigilance and knowledge, which reaches every direction of Creation. They are also often presented with peacock feathers bearing a host of eyes, again in reference to their all-seeing omniscience.
Thrones- Having the most bizarre physical appearance of the celestial host, they are described a great wheels, covered with a great many eyes and glowing with light. One explanation given for this (besides them acting as God's chariot), is that they mark the end of the first Choir, where the emanations of God begin to take on more material forms and as such exist in a state of transition.
Dominions- Regulator of Angels beneath them, receiving orders from Cherubs and Seraphs. Carry a sword and sceptor/orb
Powers- God's ass kickers. They were not originally created with the other orders, but manifested from Virtues when Satan rebelled. Rather oddly, Powers also make up the largest amount of fallen Angels. Interesting huh? They manifested in the rebellion on both sides I guess.
Principalities- The symbols of principalities are the scepter, the cross, and the sword. They're like the managers/bosses to Guardian Angels.
Archangels- originally the oldest texts just say "Angel" and "Archangel" while only later on it was elaborated.
But also... Archangels can occupy multiple Choirs. Michael is both an Archangel and a Seraph.
Like powers, they're also in charge of battling.
Angels- usually the ones who are Guardian Angels. They do the most stuff with humans
something that really interested me was...
Indeed Satan is described in the book of Revelation as a creature which takes the form of a ten headed dragon as he does battle with the armies of God, led by Archangel Michael. Another belief suggests that the battle lasted for several days with
Satan's armies building great war machines and even gaining a temporary advantage over the divine forces.
You could have a campaign that centers around recovering something as amazingly powerful as a divine war machine that nearly turned the tides in the battle for Heaven.
And this website on demons
http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/index.asptalks about a bunch of fallen Angels
Hey the devine war machine could be the largest war machine as prophesized in the R:US book.
Re: Here we go . . .
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:02 am
by Zer0 Kay
Jut wrote:Well I just had to post to this before it does get shut down/locked or deleted.
I have not posted in months, sorry for the absence.
I too am a Christian, and a Youth Minister that plays Rifts with kids from my Youth Group. (And I am still employed at my church, see not all Christians are closed minded!)
Okay on topic here:
It had always pained me a bit to see Christianity (and other major world religions) get passed over in the Rifts world. I agree with almost everyone on all the difficulties of sating out "The Lord" and how will someone GM them if they don't know anything about him. If you want "The Lord" in your games, read the Bible and see how he deals/interacts with people, towns, nations and the world. After a time (years) I realized all of the difficulties (as has been stated in this thread) that would lead Palladium to ever really go in depth into Christianity.
I have grown to respect KS and the Palladium crew with what I would consider a nod here and there to Christianity: (as mentioned before) the New West Preacher is one of my favorite, the COnversion book and others with the different Angels and such. Holy Weapons (Moses' Staff, David's Sling, Goliath's sword, the Spear that stabbed Christ) things such as these in games terms are VERY COOL props for the PC to have find/have and use. I LOVE to use Angels (nothing more the holy messangers) in my games that guide/direct the players (and many times they don't even know the person is an Angel) just like in the Bible.
I have always thought they (Palladium) has done a great job not choosing sides or pushing an agenda (other than to make a great game world and make a living at it too!) I have never been offended by anything I have seen or read and I have always keept in mind (as been said before) it is just a GAME!!! (and a great one at that too)
I was not sure who posted it, but they sumed it up by saying that you (the GM) is really the one that takes on that role of "The Lord" or whatever your beliefes my be or not be, and I have to agree with this. As a Christian, my games do tend to lean toward saving people/resucues/batteling demons/helping those in need and the like. I also like to think I am a fair GM and not a jerk. AND having a playing group that is made of Christian's is also interesting, not that they don't get out of hand, but it does give the game a slightly different "feel."
As the words of Jesus are ture in this world "Live by the sword, die by the sword"
so they are in Rifts
"If you really want to kill the CS troopers, be mindful that they will now want to kill you!"
Peace and grace to you all!
JUT
Then again even if you don't want to kill the CS troopers but aren't human... they'll still want to kill you
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:59 pm
by The Beast
Mindcrime wrote:Lynx8882 wrote:also it doesnt even have a name so what would you call it?
Yahweh?
Doesn't that start with a J?
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:12 pm
by Zer0 Kay
MaddogMatarese wrote:Mindcrime wrote:Lynx8882 wrote:also it doesnt even have a name so what would you call it?
Yahweh?
Doesn't that start with a J?
OK Dr. Jones
it's spelled YHWH no one knows exactly how it is pronounced since the Jews beleived it was the ineffible name of God, and to say it would be to invoke the power of God... even though all it ment was 'I am', derived from Moses asking his Gods name on Mt. Sinai and Gods response was 'I am' or YHWH which was replaced with 'LORD' in later versions of the Bible and Adonai in Jewish texts... technically I guess Adonai would have been replaced by 'LORD'.
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:53 pm
by Proseksword
I am totally behind Palladium's decision not to stat out deities of the Abraham decended Monotheistic Trinity, but I don't think that should rule out fleshing out and expanding on some of the more minor supernatural concepts associated with them, nor with providing OCCs for their devout worshippers.
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:23 am
by Zer0 Kay
Proseksword wrote:I am totally behind Palladium's decision not to stat out deities of the Abraham decended Monotheistic Trinity, but I don't think that should rule out fleshing out and expanding on some of the more minor supernatural concepts associated with them, nor with providing OCCs for their devout worshippers.
Examples?
Christianity in Rifts
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:20 pm
by Captain Shiva
Preachers are mentioned in New West,priests are mentioned in one of the Russia sourcebooks,and the subject is also touched on in Pantheons Of The Megaverse,and also in Rifts Sourcebook One,if memory serves me correctly.Also,the old Russian pagan gods appear in one issue of the Rifter,and of course the Native American spirits could also be considered gods.As far as actual references to Christianity go,there is little mention,probably to avoid contraversy.The cross repels vampires,but why is never explained.A Mystic could believe his powers come from a divine source,as could any Psychic character.A burster who believes it is his mission to cleanse the world of D-Bee "Infidels" with his "holy" fire might make an interesting villain.If religion exists in the CS,it is probably used as a political tool, as so many tyrants before them have used it.Any non-state-approved religion would be the target of discrimination and worse;likely being accused of practicing the black arts and being D-Bee ssympathizers.History cotains numerous examples.
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:28 am
by Sir_Spirit
Solothurn wrote:Actually I read about Endid(God) who created Adam and Eve, and Enki who was the serpent. So the name of the Jeudo-Christian God would be Endid. Ofcourse I heard Sananda(Jesus) was as well. Then there was Lucifer who introduced technology to the humans who at the time didn't need it, to change the way humans looked at thier "master/s". I don't know whats what anymore. So I say forget them all and just worship your self, at least thats the only thing one can confirm the existence and importance of. Self love anyone?
No god's name is YHVH.
And it roughly means That Which Is.
Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:41 pm
by Library Ogre
If Jesus had showed up in CB2, he would've had Power Armor and a Rune Sword containing the soul of Elisha.
However, as others have pointed out, Christianity (or its analogues) can be successfully integrated into games. Ars Magica does it very well; one of my PBEM characters is an Orthodox priest (and an apprentice magus, but the patriarch doesn't know about that). Deadlands did it. Fading Suns has a very close analogue in the Universal Church and its various sects.
I agree with Palladium that statting out Big Daddy, JC, and the Spook would be a bad idea... but I'm generally against statting out anything properly classed as a deity. If you're at a level where you're confronting people like that, stats are more or less irrelevant. If you're going to give me game stats, give me game stats I can use... like information about what his priests can do that separates them from other priests, or about what kind of avatars he sends. I don't see any reason to treat the JCI religions differently, unless your cosmology assumes they are (see Ars Magica)
