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cutlass wrote:Ughhh, bloody hell.
Look: just take your brown crayon and color them and be done with it.

No really, do you have less fun gaming because of this?

'less fun' no, because stereotypes and racial bias is so ubiquitous in science fiction of all types that it's kind of the 'background'. However, it would make things more fun if science fiction would detatch itself from the biases that hinder it. Most sci-fi is perused by undersexed white guys, so most of it shows how that demographic sees the world... unfortunately.

It just goes to how things are portrayed, which is an interesting thing to think about. Right now, I think that the CS is portrayed like the USA, mixed racially, but the further up the command chain you go, the whiter and maler it gets. It just is something I point out since it's so ubiquitous in science fiction. White guys in charge, if there are non-whites, they're always subordinate (A black guy will often get to be a second in command, but he's never going to the #1 guy), and almost no women, except for the inexplicably gorgeous warrior woman who's been a fighting for decades and yet magically is not only unscarred, but only looks in her mid 20's.

From Azure Bonds to Red Sonja to the CS's own blonde bombshell, there comes a point where the authors are putting in stereotypes rather than characters, and that does weaken things. Admittedly, Kashbrook is a step foreward in that she doesn't have a fully environmental MDC bikini that she wears into battle... but come on. Joseph Prosek's lived a life of pampered lunxury, so if he looks like a pretty boy, it's understandible. But Kashbrook is supposed to be an omnicompetant and battle-hardened woman of almost 50 years of age!

And I do think it would make the CS stronger villains if it was otherwise. If, say, half the generals were women. Or if The Proseks were mulatto. Same genocidal politics, same humano-centrist focus. You know, show a Humanity which really has seemed to overcome barriers of gender and race.... it just sold its soul in order to do it. It's also a place where the "American Facist State" has never gone. American Nazis have been done in science fiction for years, as have science fiction Nazis. However, gender neutral race balanced Nazis.... not something you see, but something that the CS has the opportunity to be.

This is America. In America, genocidal facism is something that every young boy and girl should be able to aspire to, regardless of race, creed, or color!

DamonS wrote: White guys in charge, if there are non-whites, they're always subordinate (A black guy will often get to be a second in command, but he's never going to the #1 guy), and almost no women, except for the inexplicably gorgeous warrior woman who's been a fighting for decades and yet magically is not only unscarred, but only looks in her mid 20's.

Not all Sci Fi is like that

ST DS9 had a Black guy in charge. Had a Bajorian second in command. Had a Klingon third in command. Had a shape shifter constible, had a trill science officer, had a geneticly moditifed latino doctor, you had to go down to a NCO to find your first white guy.

ST Voyager had a non bombshell woman in command. A native American second in command. A black vulcan thrid in command. A klingon cheif engineer, you had to go down to second LT before you found a white male and the last guy on the command staff was an Asian....

Those are just two (( Off the top of my head and tip of my tongue as Im sort of a trekkie)) That come to mind.

Yet again, you're generalizing and using sweeping statements that arn't always true.

Both of the shows I referenced ran for 7 seasons. so 14 YEARS of episodes stand aginst your sterotype.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

DamonS wrote: White guys in charge, if there are non-whites, they're always subordinate (A black guy will often get to be a second in command, but he's never going to the #1 guy), and almost no women, except for the inexplicably gorgeous warrior woman who's been a fighting for decades and yet magically is not only unscarred, but only looks in her mid 20's.

Not all Sci Fi is like that

ST DS9 had a Black guy in charge. Had a Bajorian second in command. Had a Klingon third in command. Had a shape shifter constible, had a trill science officer, had a geneticly moditifed latino doctor, you had to go down to a NCO to find your first white guy.

Yup.

ST Voyager had a non bombshell woman in command.

Not a Bombshell, but still something of a hottie.

A native American second in command.

Yup.

A black vulcan thrid in command.

Don't get me started.

A klingon cheif engineer,

I think she was 1/2 Klingon, although it's been a LONG time since I've seen the show.

But she was something of a warrior-woman.

Both of the shows I referenced ran for 7 seasons. so 14 YEARS of episodes stand aginst your sterotype.

How long into the series was it before Voyager decided that none of the women on the show were hot enough, so they brought in 7 of 9?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

DamonS wrote: White guys in charge, if there are non-whites, they're always subordinate (A black guy will often get to be a second in command, but he's never going to the #1 guy), and almost no women, except for the inexplicably gorgeous warrior woman who's been a fighting for decades and yet magically is not only unscarred, but only looks in her mid 20's.

Not all Sci Fi is like that

ST DS9 had a Black guy in charge. Had a Bajorian second in command. Had a Klingon third in command. Had a shape shifter constible, had a trill science officer, had a geneticly moditifed latino doctor, you had to go down to a NCO to find your first white guy.

Yup.

ST Voyager had a non bombshell woman in command.

Not a Bombshell, but still something of a hottie.

A native American second in command.

Yup.

A black vulcan thrid in command.

Don't get me started.

A klingon cheif engineer,

I think she was 1/2 Klingon, although it's been a LONG time since I've seen the show.

But she was something of a warrior-woman.

Both of the shows I referenced ran for 7 seasons. so 14 YEARS of episodes stand aginst your sterotype.

How long into the series was it before Voyager decided that none of the women on the show were hot enough, so they brought in 7 of 9?

Eh... I'd debate Janeway being a hottie. She never did anything for me in the hotness department. She wasn't Ass ugly or anything but she wasn't there for her looks. lol

And yeah Torres was half klingon.

And they got 7 of 9 when they got red of Kes, the other blond hottie they had. lol. but.. it could be aruged. Kess was an Ocompin and 7 of 9 was borg. neither staight white girls.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Eh... I'd debate Janeway being a hottie. She never did anything for me in the hotness department. She wasn't Ass ugly or anything but she wasn't there for her looks. lol

I think she was there for her looks, in part.

And they got 7 of 9 when they got red of Kes, the other blond hottie they had. lol. but.. it could be aruged. Kess was an Ocompin and 7 of 9 was borg. neither staight white girls.

If you read his post, he wasn't saying that all female characters were white.
Only that they fit certain stereotypes.

If you read the rest of his 20 or so posts, he has a hard on for Palladium being white racist sexist people... It's been a running thing for about a week that he's brought up in two or three threads.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Not all Sci Fi is like that

And there is the constant problem we keep coming here. Here is the debate

Me: There is a general trend of X (for example.. white male generals) that is unwarranted given the demographics involved.

PepsiJedi: Not true! Here is one example of 'Y' (For example, One female general) therefore there is no general trend!

-general trends can exist despite single counter-examples. This is the fundamental idea and the fundamental misconception on the pepsijedi part. Yes, Barack Obama is a black senator. And yes, the Senate is disproportionally white. Both are true.

On sci fi, here's a fine example. Here's a list of the top 50 sci-fi shows of all time... (not the 100 member senate, but it's a sample size of 50). They didn't make this list with race in mind at all (nor did they make it well either, it looks to me more like a random sample, I mean, DS9's not on the list but 'Nowhere Man' is!?).

http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/gallery/topscifishows/

50 shows, and ONE of them has a #1 character who's not white (DS9's not on the list, I think it should be, if it gets added, the number goes up to 'two'). About five of them have a #1 character who's a woman, of those, two of them have a woman in charge of a group of people (Add Voyager, and that number goes up to 'three'). We're up to '50' dude, 50! And this list was made in a racially/gender neutral way, it's as close to a random sample as you're going to get. And there's no 'race/gender' bias in science fiction? The shows after 1980 start having a single black character who's subordinate to the strong white guy captain.... he becomes a mainstay. But the black guy being #1?

Tell you what. since African Americans make up about 15% of the North American population, and this list has 50 shows on it (All but two of the shows are American)... all things being equal, 7-8 of them would have the #1 character be black (male or female). It would be a horrible horrible mis-use of cherry picking to try to add 7 shows to this list where the main character was a black person. However, I don't think it could be done, even if you *did* cherry pick that way.

So here's the 'pepsijedi' challenge. Name seven science fiction TV shows, where the #1 character is black. We will add them to this list and 'make' it look racially balanced. You even get one for free... DS9. I'll even add another, M.A.N.T.I.S. (and the fact that I remember that one should tell you how much sci fi I watch, and hopefully make you despair at the fact that someone who remembers M.A.N.T.I.S can't do it). So all you need now is five more.

To the first who can do it, I will send a check for 20 dollars. Trust me, the depths to which you will have to dig, will make my point for me.

I slam Palladium... which isn't 100% fair, they are no worse than anyone else. It's is a bad pattern that's everywhere in sci fi.

See you're miss reading my point though.

My point is not that "THERE IS NO BIAS WHAT SO EVER IN SCI FI"

It's that sweeping statements like "You never see a black guy in command." or "A woman in command" or "A woman unless she's super hot" (( Which could be debated, but then you see very few UGLY people on any shows put out by holllywood.))

My point is that if there are exceptions to your statements, you can't make firm statements like that.

There are also other factors to add in.

Like society at the time. It's only in the past 20 to 30 years you see ANYTHING on tv other than white people. So saying the entire history and using it as a cross section there's going to be that bias at the start up.

My point is, that if you try and cherry pick one way, You can do it, but if you look at a borader spectrum, the "Absolutes" Wither away.

Sure some are exceptions to the rules, but... shows like STV and STDS9 did really well for what they were and in the 'recent' past too. But even the original ST had a mix of races and stuff, that was part of what made it so breakthrough at the time.

Didn't ST have the first interracial kiss ever on TV? (( Could be wrong but think I'm right))

In the US are most things. (( Generalsation here)) Run by rich white guys. Yes. Does that make the rich white guys racist? No. One is not dependant on the other.

Are most char's on tv White? Yes. Comedy, sit com, reality tv, cartoons, news, yes. Most are white. Does that make TV Racist? No.

Look at the NBA is it racist? Or the NFL?

DamonS wrote:'less fun' no, because stereotypes and racial bias is so ubiquitous in science fiction of all types that it's kind of the 'background'. However, it would make things more fun if science fiction would detatch itself from the biases that hinder it. Most sci-fi is perused by undersexed white guys, so most of it shows how that demographic sees the world... unfortunately.

Has nothing to do with race and everything to do with $$.

It just goes to how things are portrayed, which is an interesting thing to think about. Right now, I think that the CS is portrayed like the USA, mixed racially, but the further up the command chain you go, the whiter and maler it gets. It just is something I point out since it's so ubiquitous in science fiction. White guys in charge, if there are non-whites, they're always subordinate (A black guy will often get to be a second in command, but he's never going to the #1 guy), and almost no women, except for the inexplicably gorgeous warrior woman who's been a fighting for decades and yet magically is not only unscarred, but only looks in her mid 20's.

It IS interesting. RIFTs is like a work of art. You're going to see what you want to see from it. We have some colorless pictures and all of a sudden their "white". There is no data to say that anyone in CS is of one race, except we can see someones biased for a race by making such proclimations about sed bias.

About the only thing you may have a point with is with women. And even then, that is just explained through cultural setting. And in truth, how many times inhistory has a women lead a nation as compared to a man? Culturally speaking, men more often then not take on the direct roll of leading.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:See you're miss reading my point though.

My point is not that "THERE IS NO BIAS WHAT SO EVER IN SCI FI"

So there *are* biases in Sci Fi?

Argue from The Affirmative now for a sec. What *Are* these mythical biases in Sci fi you speak of?

Rifts is Sci Fi, does it have any of them?

The CS is Sci-fi, does it have any?

Answer those questions, then re-read my posts, and ask yourself "Do I 90% agree with what he says, or 90% disagree?"

I disagree with your interpretation of the numbers and representation, that reflects a cultural norm as racial bias and an _active_ racial or sexual bias in the rifts game that I ____personally____ do not see as being there.

I do not dispute that all tv, sci fi included tends to be culturally and numerically slanted to the white folks. That is true and has always been.

That being said, in Sci Fi you do find crews more culturally and racially diverse by it's very nature. This diversity is one of the hallmarks of the type and heralded as a cultural advancement in many cases. (( not all.))

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I do not dispute that all tv, sci fi included tends to be culturally and numerically slanted to the white folks. That is true and has always been.

That being said, in Sci Fi you do find crews more culturally and racially diverse by it's very nature. This diversity is one of the hallmarks of the type and heralded as a cultural advancement in many cases. (( not all.))

Sounds to me, like your answer is

"yes, Sci fi tends to be biased, towards white folks, not as badly as some things, and it's getting better over time, but racial bias is there and has always been".

I'm paraphrasing from a very back and forth answer which goes from "tends to be slanted" to "Diversity is one of the hallmarks", so I may not be 100% understanding your point. Let me know if I've paraphrased it fairly.

I presume you also mean that there is only a racial bias, not a gender one? (Dya really wanna stand by that answer... or do you want to take another shot and include the possibiity of a gender bias too). I'm just getting a feel for exactly where you stand on whether these biases even exist or not.

But what about the other two parts?

2) Does Rifts, with its heavy sci fi elements, have biases? If so, what are they?

3) Does the portrayal of the CS have biases? If so, what are they?

dark brandon wrote:
It IS interesting. RIFTs is like a work of art. You're going to see what you want to see from it. We have some colorless pictures and all of a sudden their "white". There is no data to say that anyone in CS is of one race, except we can see someones biased for a race by making such proclimations about sed bias.

About the only thing you may have a point with is with women. And even then, that is just explained through cultural setting. And in truth, how many times inhistory has a women lead a nation as compared to a man? Culturally speaking, men more often then not take on the direct roll of leading.

Lemme rephrase the above
"Oh, we never 'said' anyone was white..... we just hired artists to draw them looking like caucasians complete, in some cases, with long lovely locks of flowing blonde hair..... But no racial identity was implied nor should have been inferred in any case.... and btw I rescind any statement I might have made implying that Desmond Bradford was black.. again.. no racial identity was implied nor should have been inferred."

'Black and white' pictures are not 'colorless', the folks in Rifts Japan, for some strange reason, all look asian. Their race is not stipulated at any point either, but one look at the pictures and one gets the idea that Rifts:Japan is filled with asian people. Unless of course you're willing to stand there too and say, "No racial identity was implied nor should be inferred for anyone within China or Japan either"

I mean, there are folks in Rifts for whom no racial identity is implied nore should be inferred, Splynncryth being one.......... but Karl Prosek? Loni Kashbrook?

As for women, in truth, how many times in history has a woman led a nation as compared to a man? Interesting question, and as time goes on, it's a question that keeps getting answered with "more and more". One silly way to put it is that the closer we get to 50 foot nuclear powered battlerobots, the closer we get to a 50/50 split of women and men in leadership roles. It's almost as if technology is equalizing the differences in physical aptitude that were so important during the first 5000 years of human existance.

But it's good to know that someone is standing up to say that 'Women would be much less likely to lead in the sci-fi future... they're just "culturally" disadvantaged."

DamonS wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:I do not dispute that all tv, sci fi included tends to be culturally and numerically slanted to the white folks. That is true and has always been.

That being said, in Sci Fi you do find crews more culturally and racially diverse by it's very nature. This diversity is one of the hallmarks of the type and heralded as a cultural advancement in many cases. (( not all.))

Sounds to me, like your answer is

"yes, Sci fi tends to be biased, towards white folks, not as badly as some things, and it's getting better over time, but racial bias is there and has always been".

I'm paraphrasing from a very back and forth answer which goes from "tends to be slanted" to "Diversity is one of the hallmarks", so I may not be 100% understanding your point. Let me know if I've paraphrased it fairly.

I presume you also mean that there is only a racial bias, not a gender one? (Dya really wanna stand by that answer... or do you want to take another shot and include the possibiity of a gender bias too). I'm just getting a feel for exactly where you stand on whether these biases even exist or not.

But what about the other two parts?

2) Does Rifts, with its heavy sci fi elements, have biases? If so, what are they?

3) Does the portrayal of the CS have biases? If so, what are they?

Actually you're being a jerk and trolling for a fight so I'm just going to stop the back and forth with you. Go antagonise somone else.

But please quit trying to put words into my mouth (( or from my fingers)).

And please, for the record, don't chalk this up to "Ha ha I won, he can't answer"

You haven't. I could. I'm just getting agitated with you to the point of teetering on forgoing forum rules and really telling you how I feel.

I don't want to get banned, you're clearly trolling for the fight. So I just won't give you the pleasure.

So. Have a nice day.

DamonS wrote:Lemme rephrase the above
"Oh, we never 'said' anyone was white..... we just hired artists to draw them looking like caucasians complete, in some cases, with long lovely locks of flowing blonde hair..... But no racial identity was implied nor should have been inferred in any case.... and btw I rescind any statement I might have made implying that Desmond Bradford was black.. again.. no racial identity was implied nor should have been inferred."

You can rephrase all you like. That doesn't change that it's a picture and thus people are gonna take from it what they want.

Desmond may have dark colored skin...but he may not be completely "black". I mean this may be completely new to you...but people who have mixed races in them can qualities of both races. Just because they have "lovely locks of flowing blond hair" doesn't mean they are white. I can show you black-straight out of africa women who have "long flowing blonde hair". Go to BET.

'Black and white' pictures are not 'colorless', the folks in Rifts Japan, for some strange reason, all look asian. Their race is not stipulated at any point either, but one look at the pictures and one gets the idea that Rifts:Japan is filled with asian people. Unless of course you're willing to stand there too and say, "No racial identity was implied nor should be inferred for anyone within China or Japan either"

That's because the eyes are drawn with heavy epicanthril (sp?) folds. There's a picture of a man in the book of magic (telekinesis spell). Look at that picture and tell me if he's black or white. Maybe he's a mixed. Kinda looks like tiger woods, so that makes him part black and part asian...maybe.

I mean, there are folks in Rifts for whom no racial identity is implied nore should be inferred, Splynncryth being one.......... but Karl Prosek? Loni Kashbrook?

Yeah, karl and Kashbrook. Those are just names. As stated in the colored picture of them (very last page of RUE, you see both prosek and son), you have a colored picture of them. What race are they?

As for women, in truth, how many times in history has a woman led a nation as compared to a man? Interesting question, and as time goes on, it's a question that keeps getting answered with "more and more". One silly way to put it is that the closer we get to 50 foot nuclear powered battlerobots, the closer we get to a 50/50 split of women and men in leadership roles. It's almost as if technology is equalizing the differences in physical aptitude that were so important during the first 5000 years of human existance.

But it's good to know that someone is standing up to say that 'Women would be much less likely to lead in the sci-fi future... they're just "culturally" disadvantaged."

Simply put. Women are not a target audiance. Boys/Men are. Maybe it's important to you...but to me I could give a rats.... about it. I want characters I can connect with, and I just don't connect with the women side that easily. I can't picture myself in the role of a woman. I enjoy gender diversity. That by no means I think women should take a backseat to anything, but in something that's going to target me I need to find characters I connect with.

It has nothing to do with "Sci-fi" future or anything. It's about me, and the fact i'm a target audiance. So i want guys stated out and I want the girls to all be hot and dressed to kill. I want them to wear Chainmail bikinis and all be supermodels. Leave the fat ugly ones at home.

Like I said it's art. You'll see what you want to see in it.

dark brandon wrote:
About the only thing you may have a point with is with women. And even then, that is just explained through cultural setting.

Becomes roughly two days later

dark brandon wrote:It has nothing to do with "Sci-fi" future or anything. It's about me, and the fact i'm a target audience. So i want guys stated out and I want the girls to all be hot and dressed to kill. I want them to wear Chainmail bikinis and all be supermodels. Leave the fat ugly ones at home.

Admittedly, I do admire the candor. There is nothing wrong with admitting that RPG's are bought by young, teenaged, bespectacled white boys, and that Palladium biases to suit their tastes. I used to be one of those, I know the feeling. But biasing to suit the audience, is still biasing (I never said there was no reason for it, only that it existed) At least with the women, there is finally some agreement. But admit it from the start rather than trying to point to the guy who sees it and say "Well... you *may* have a point.... but not really since fundamental cultural aspects of humanity would elicit a demographic of..." etc.

Now for this, I would give a warning to the PB writers. 15 years ago my friend Alex bought Palladium books. He was 16, he flipped burgers at McD's and had disposable income commensurate with that lofty station. My other friend Alan was 17, he bought books with his part time job as a school janitor. I shelved library books for 5.15 an hour.

Now Alex is an attorney, he's married, he's got a child on the way, and he looks for things that are aimed at a more complex crowd. Games every Friday. Alan is a geologist buys gaming books with the type of fervor that only someone in The Texas oil industry can do it. I just defended my Ph.D. and my jobs start at 60K a year. It's fried Green Tomatoes, 'cept gaming style.

I noticed these the biases for two reasons:
1) I'm a little tired of gaming books written with the mindset of a teenage boy. They're oversimplified, silly, and give you the heeby jeebies when you're in a point where you may have daughters.

2) I was looking through my PB, and found nuggets of complexity. Lone Star is good this way. Yes, it has the supermodel general (downside), but it also has unsexpot women who are a helluva lot more interesting. Santiago is fun frolicksome evil, and Cunningham is... just.. plain.. eeevil. Another nugget? Erin Tarn Nice idea.....

Other then that, it was sexpots. German Dominatrix queen, Mystic Triad lady with Mystic Bustier, Russian warrior babe. And the irony, they all weaken the *one* woman in Rifts who *should* be a sexpot (Guenivere, seeing as how she's engineered to be one). And that made me sad, because PB showed it could do better, and that it's just choosing *not* to. Now that's fair, to pander to teens who want the bikini clad sexpots....

And the swimsuit edition is that.. *textbook*....

but admit it. There's health in admitting it.

Is it worse for Race? Well, this is the company who made a book on *Africa*, and didn't put any black people in charge of anything.... is there a 'cultural' explaination for that one? Or is that also suiting ot the tastes of an Audience who would not 'Identify' with a black person being in charge of a city in Africa?

After all, First, it should be admitted when it's done... and then thrown away when doing it would be just plain innane.

DamonS wrote:

dark brandon wrote:
About the only thing you may have a point with is with women. And even then, that is just explained through cultural setting.

Becomes roughly two days later

dark brandon wrote:It has nothing to do with "Sci-fi" future or anything. It's about me, and the fact i'm a target audience. So i want guys stated out and I want the girls to all be hot and dressed to kill. I want them to wear Chainmail bikinis and all be supermodels. Leave the fat ugly ones at home.

The original statment was explination for IG setting.

The second was my personal feelings.

Admittedly, I do admire the candor. There is nothing wrong with admitting that RPG's are bought by young, teenaged, bespectacled white boys, and that Palladium biases to suit their tastes. I used to be one of those, I know the feeling. But biasing to suit the audience, is still biasing (I never said there was no reason for it, only that it existed) At least with the women, there is finally some agreement. But admit it from the start rather than trying to point to the guy who sees it and say "Well... you *may* have a point.... but not really since fundamental cultural aspects of humanity would elicit a demographic of..." etc.

It's not that you may have a point. The point is $$. Women in RPG's simply do not sell unless they are clad in nearly nothing and sexy as hell. That's women in ALL instances. From beer comercials to cartoon characters. You simply do not find ugly girls in society. They are not socially acceptable (not as much as ugly fat men).

Now for this, I would give a warning to the PB writers. 15 years ago my friend Alex bought Palladium books. He was 16, he flipped burgers at McD's and had disposable income commensurate with that lofty station. My other friend Alan was 17, he bought books with his part time job as a school janitor. I shelved library books for 5.15 an hour.

Now Alex is an attorney, he's married, he's got a child on the way, and he looks for things that are aimed at a more complex crowd. Games every Friday. Alan is a geologist buys gaming books with the type of fervor that only someone in The Texas oil industry can do it. I just defended my Ph.D. and my jobs start at 60K a year. It's fried Green Tomatoes, 'cept gaming style.

I noticed these the biases for two reasons:
1) I'm a little tired of gaming books written with the mindset of a teenage boy. They're oversimplified, silly, and give you the heeby jeebies when you're in a point where you may have daughters.

Well, I'm happy for you and your friends. Regardless of how much you and your friends make in a week/month/year you're not the demographic. You're afraid for your daughter in RPG's? Boy, let me tell you, unless you cut her off completely from the Real world, having sexy women flashed in front of her in RPG's is the LEAST of your problems. At least in RPG's they are almost always smart in addition to being sexy sex symbols.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Being beautiful should be what every women strives for. It's a cultural ideal but it's been around a long time and will be around it seems simply forever because that is how men prefer it. In a deeper discussion I actually think it's genetic. You don't even have to believe me, ask any woman, do they think it's harder being an ugly woman than an ugly man?

2) I was looking through my PB, and found nuggets of complexity. Lone Star is good this way. Yes, it has the supermodel general (downside), but it also has unsexpot women who are a helluva lot more interesting. Santiago is fun frolicksome evil, and Cunningham is... just.. plain.. eeevil. Another nugget? Erin Tarn Nice idea.....

Of course when you ask most people about what they liked about the book, it's not these women. It's Bradford, it's the generals. Except for you I've rarely heard anyone mention santiago or cunningham.

Erin tarn is the exception to the rule.

Other then that, it was sexpots. German Dominatrix queen, Mystic Triad lady with Mystic Bustier, Russian warrior babe. And the irony, they all weaken the *one* woman in Rifts who *should* be a sexpot (Guenivere, seeing as how she's engineered to be one). And that made me sad, because PB showed it could do better, and that it's just choosing *not* to. Now that's fair, to pander to teens who want the bikini clad sexpots....

And the swimsuit edition is that.. *textbook*....

but admit it. There's health in admitting it.

Sex sells. It always has and it always will. That's why we have 2 swimsuit editions, but only one rifter 91/2. )c:

Is it worse for Race? Well, this is the company who made a book on *Africa*, and didn't put any black people in charge of anything.... is there a 'cultural' explaination for that one? Or is that also suiting ot the tastes of an Audience who would not 'Identify' with a black person being in charge of a city in Africa?

What color is the leader of the Phenoix empire? No, this is simply someone wanting to see a color problem. Someone who wants there to be racism, but can't get by the fact that it's not a color issue. The problem lies solely with the viewer.

And that's exactly it. If you go out pissy and try to find problems of this nature you can manipulate most anything to be a problem of this nature. It's one of the reasons the problems still linger. The hate mongers on both sides. (( Yes both. The ones that look down on people because of race and the ones that look down on others because of precevied inequality because of their own race)) Can always justify their hate with stuff that most non haters see as abjectly silly.


How many times has Damon gone off on Loni about being a supermodle? *laughs* I've read the write up, more than once. Out of two or three pages on her the only address to her beautiy is "She's had her admirers but is married t the military" It goes on and on and on about how tactically brilliant she is.

As for the picture, she's not that "Hot" in the pic.

Noone's going to throw rocks at her because of her looks in the pick but she's not in the Swimsuit rifter. Heck her hair's up in a twist or a bun. Not flowing supermodle like over her shoulders in a platinum wave.

but they guy is stuck on her because she's not ugly, and is a woman in power.

One thing that needs to be brought up that is often forgotten when somone starts crying that it's unfair to ____ race about something.

There's nothing wrong with being white. Some of us are just born that way, the same way some are just born black.

There's nothing wrong with being pretty, some are just born that way, just like some (( like myself)) are not.

There's nothing wrong with a capabile white person being in power. If they can do the job, there's no problem.

The only problems pop up when you have capable people of other colors or gender that are DENIGHED the job based SOLELY on their color or gender.

Of which the CS has never, not once, protraied as doing.

If I have 50 women that are better generals than 50 men an there's a book of 'women generals' it's not sexist.. IF THEY"RE BETTER. It's only sexist if they're generals BECAUSE they're women.

This has never happened in the CS (( as given to us at this time))

We've no evidence, any, what so ever, that promototion is based on either skin color or what cha got in ya pants.

So untill Kevin comes on and goes "Nope, you're wrong, they're racial bigots too"

I'm stickin' with um not being that.