TSAW 3.0 ... The REF and Third Robotech War.
Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
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Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Glancing again at the seemingly ordinary watch, then back to the note taking.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
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glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13474
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
no, i don't know about any replacements for the Gallant weapon system, but i can bet the eggheads have ideas about just the same. persoanlly i'd hope for a version with a flat top frame, who ever designed that thing must not have known anything about aiming and ergonomics.
but onto our next topic, and my personal favorite, the Alpha fighter.
the Alpha is a remarkable peice of engineering, and is still a pretty impressive fighter even today. which is amazing, considering that the basic design predates the formation of the expeditionary forces.
the RDF saw a need for a smaller, more resource efficent craft early on, but it wasn't until after the loss of new macross that any real work got started on making one. aside from a few one off prototypes, the current design of Alpha descends from the VF-1X prototypes, which was one of the first to test out the new transformational scheme and to attempt to incorporate integral missile systems. while the VF-1X ultimately proved a dead end, it helped obtain the data needed to create the very first Alpha prototypes. the first three prototype models were test models only, and suffered more than a few mechanical problems. it wasn't until model number 6 that enough of the bugs were ironed out for it to be certified for mass production. at this point, the Beta component design was not finalized, but the attachment systems had been more or less perfected, allowing the VAF-6 designs to mate with a booster system similar to that used by the old VF-1 Valkyrie. these boosters had been used to refine the connection system, and helped create the final beta component performance requirements. only later did the current Legios combo become a standard.
the VAF-6 models served in both the Expeditionary force, as well as the Armies of the Southern Cross. in the Southern Cross forces the Alpha was eclipsed by the Logan and later Ajax fighters, which were better suited ot the more confined battlefeilds the Southern Cross dealt with. most of the Alpha's in Southern Cross service were stationed with the UEG navy, flying off the submersible carriers as attack planes, or with the TASC at bases off earth.
in the expeditionary forces, the Alpha excelled, and eventually became the standard veritech in use. its heavy armaments for its size and decent protection and manuverbility made it quite effective against the regent. when the Regis invaded earth, the Alpha was the primary mecha involved in the three major attempts to force the invid off.
The alpha comes in several different models, but they all have mostly the same features. armor protection is slightly higher than the old VF-1 despite being around half the size, as is manuverbility. in fighter mode the Alpha is not quite as agile as the VF-1, but has VTOL ability which more than makes up for any shortcomings there. in guardian and battloid mode the Alpha is far more agile, and is able to perform full flight in battloid, unlike the VF-1's limited hovering ability. thrust is about half the level of the Valk's, which really limits its top speed in an atmosphere.
the VTOL function is a simple ducted thrust set up good mostly for take off and landing, but an experianced pilot can still make good use of it in flight. one manuver that gave a great edge in combat was to kick in the VTOL, cut main thrust, and pivot while hovering. the craft would then 'slide', continueing mostly in the direction it was going, while the weapons pointed anywhere you needed them. you couldn't maintain this for more than a few seconds, but it could really get you an edge up on an opponent.
weaponry is very impressive, a 60 count missile system is distributed across the frame, with 8 missiles in each shoulder, 10 in each forearm, and 12 each in lower leg launchers. every single missile in this system can be volleyed at once, although in fighter mode some minor shifting of the legs is required to allow the upper 8 missiles per leg to clear the wings. such large volleys are not recommended except in extreme emergencies, for those missiles comprise your primary firepower. once gone, your practically unarmed, and would have to rely on the gunpod. the GU-XX gunpod is a 35mm gatling rifle based on the proven GU-11, but using a more advanced ammunition providing better penetrating power for the rounds. some units were equipped with energy gunpods that had roughly the same performance as the gatling type, but these were rare.
no other weapons came standard, but there are fragmented reports that some planes had additional missiles or lasers added. there is no concrete evidence of these modifications, and if they existed they probably represented prototypes or refit kits for older or damaged aircraft.
sensor wise, the Alpha is fairly uninspiring. space considerations restricted the power of the radar system installed, a compact system limited ot a rather dangerous 10 miles of effective range. in deep space, where the expeditionary forces typically fought, this range was greatly extended, but the weak radar system of the Alpha was the bane of every pilot in the REF. optical systems were also subpar, lacking any form of infared or thermal vision modes standard. had it not been for regulations restricting the ability for zentreadi to seek veritech pilot training, i would almost swear the controls and sensors were designed for the massive numbers of battlepod pilots that joined the Expeditionary Forces prior to leaving earth. they were just a bit too simple and underpowered compared to the proven Valkyrie.
the specific models in use didn't change things much. the -6C model was the standard mass production model, and represents the version detailed above. the -6J model was obstentiously specialized for atmospheric combat, but aside from a little extra streamlining was identical in design and performance to the C model. the -6R model however, was a pilots dream, but never manufactured in decent numbers. the 6R added a host of additonal sensors to the mecha, including the infrared, thermal, and night vision optics which every pilot would have killed for. if they could only have incorporated these sensors into the standard models, and fixed the radar, more alpha pilots would have managed to survive the ground assualts against the regent, and would have had a better chance against the Regis' forces.
the last model is often overlooked, because it was only built in small numbers and was classified until quite recently. the 6S model. based on the C chassis, it incorporated the first production run of shadow devices. after only a few hundred were refitted from C specifications, the VAF-7S was finished, and all efforts were directed to produicing those more potent fighters.
i was flying a 6S a month before reflex point, running a recon mission into the debris feild. the shadow device hid me pretty well, although we still were very careful to avoid getting too close to the invid patrols. but it started feeding back into my engines, and they burned out. there was no way i could get back to the fleet, so i was forced to perform a deadstick re-entry to earth. not something you want to do, ever. luckly the shadow device kept working long enough to get me to the ground, but the crash totalled the fighter. i grabbed my Cyclone, set the self destruct, and headed to the nearest city. i was lucky and had landed in the american south, and managed to meet up with the ground forces that hit reflex point. i was assigned a beat up R model obtained from the resistance, and was able to avoid running into any of the more advanced invid mecha, so i survived long enough to see the Regis put on her light show. after that, i was assigned to a deep space exploration mission and got caught in the misfold that deposited me here.
but onto our next topic, and my personal favorite, the Alpha fighter.
the Alpha is a remarkable peice of engineering, and is still a pretty impressive fighter even today. which is amazing, considering that the basic design predates the formation of the expeditionary forces.
the RDF saw a need for a smaller, more resource efficent craft early on, but it wasn't until after the loss of new macross that any real work got started on making one. aside from a few one off prototypes, the current design of Alpha descends from the VF-1X prototypes, which was one of the first to test out the new transformational scheme and to attempt to incorporate integral missile systems. while the VF-1X ultimately proved a dead end, it helped obtain the data needed to create the very first Alpha prototypes. the first three prototype models were test models only, and suffered more than a few mechanical problems. it wasn't until model number 6 that enough of the bugs were ironed out for it to be certified for mass production. at this point, the Beta component design was not finalized, but the attachment systems had been more or less perfected, allowing the VAF-6 designs to mate with a booster system similar to that used by the old VF-1 Valkyrie. these boosters had been used to refine the connection system, and helped create the final beta component performance requirements. only later did the current Legios combo become a standard.
the VAF-6 models served in both the Expeditionary force, as well as the Armies of the Southern Cross. in the Southern Cross forces the Alpha was eclipsed by the Logan and later Ajax fighters, which were better suited ot the more confined battlefeilds the Southern Cross dealt with. most of the Alpha's in Southern Cross service were stationed with the UEG navy, flying off the submersible carriers as attack planes, or with the TASC at bases off earth.
in the expeditionary forces, the Alpha excelled, and eventually became the standard veritech in use. its heavy armaments for its size and decent protection and manuverbility made it quite effective against the regent. when the Regis invaded earth, the Alpha was the primary mecha involved in the three major attempts to force the invid off.
The alpha comes in several different models, but they all have mostly the same features. armor protection is slightly higher than the old VF-1 despite being around half the size, as is manuverbility. in fighter mode the Alpha is not quite as agile as the VF-1, but has VTOL ability which more than makes up for any shortcomings there. in guardian and battloid mode the Alpha is far more agile, and is able to perform full flight in battloid, unlike the VF-1's limited hovering ability. thrust is about half the level of the Valk's, which really limits its top speed in an atmosphere.
the VTOL function is a simple ducted thrust set up good mostly for take off and landing, but an experianced pilot can still make good use of it in flight. one manuver that gave a great edge in combat was to kick in the VTOL, cut main thrust, and pivot while hovering. the craft would then 'slide', continueing mostly in the direction it was going, while the weapons pointed anywhere you needed them. you couldn't maintain this for more than a few seconds, but it could really get you an edge up on an opponent.
weaponry is very impressive, a 60 count missile system is distributed across the frame, with 8 missiles in each shoulder, 10 in each forearm, and 12 each in lower leg launchers. every single missile in this system can be volleyed at once, although in fighter mode some minor shifting of the legs is required to allow the upper 8 missiles per leg to clear the wings. such large volleys are not recommended except in extreme emergencies, for those missiles comprise your primary firepower. once gone, your practically unarmed, and would have to rely on the gunpod. the GU-XX gunpod is a 35mm gatling rifle based on the proven GU-11, but using a more advanced ammunition providing better penetrating power for the rounds. some units were equipped with energy gunpods that had roughly the same performance as the gatling type, but these were rare.
no other weapons came standard, but there are fragmented reports that some planes had additional missiles or lasers added. there is no concrete evidence of these modifications, and if they existed they probably represented prototypes or refit kits for older or damaged aircraft.
sensor wise, the Alpha is fairly uninspiring. space considerations restricted the power of the radar system installed, a compact system limited ot a rather dangerous 10 miles of effective range. in deep space, where the expeditionary forces typically fought, this range was greatly extended, but the weak radar system of the Alpha was the bane of every pilot in the REF. optical systems were also subpar, lacking any form of infared or thermal vision modes standard. had it not been for regulations restricting the ability for zentreadi to seek veritech pilot training, i would almost swear the controls and sensors were designed for the massive numbers of battlepod pilots that joined the Expeditionary Forces prior to leaving earth. they were just a bit too simple and underpowered compared to the proven Valkyrie.
the specific models in use didn't change things much. the -6C model was the standard mass production model, and represents the version detailed above. the -6J model was obstentiously specialized for atmospheric combat, but aside from a little extra streamlining was identical in design and performance to the C model. the -6R model however, was a pilots dream, but never manufactured in decent numbers. the 6R added a host of additonal sensors to the mecha, including the infrared, thermal, and night vision optics which every pilot would have killed for. if they could only have incorporated these sensors into the standard models, and fixed the radar, more alpha pilots would have managed to survive the ground assualts against the regent, and would have had a better chance against the Regis' forces.
the last model is often overlooked, because it was only built in small numbers and was classified until quite recently. the 6S model. based on the C chassis, it incorporated the first production run of shadow devices. after only a few hundred were refitted from C specifications, the VAF-7S was finished, and all efforts were directed to produicing those more potent fighters.
i was flying a 6S a month before reflex point, running a recon mission into the debris feild. the shadow device hid me pretty well, although we still were very careful to avoid getting too close to the invid patrols. but it started feeding back into my engines, and they burned out. there was no way i could get back to the fleet, so i was forced to perform a deadstick re-entry to earth. not something you want to do, ever. luckly the shadow device kept working long enough to get me to the ground, but the crash totalled the fighter. i grabbed my Cyclone, set the self destruct, and headed to the nearest city. i was lucky and had landed in the american south, and managed to meet up with the ground forces that hit reflex point. i was assigned a beat up R model obtained from the resistance, and was able to avoid running into any of the more advanced invid mecha, so i survived long enough to see the Regis put on her light show. after that, i was assigned to a deep space exploration mission and got caught in the misfold that deposited me here.
Last edited by glitterboy2098 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
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Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
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taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
"Your Alphas' kinetic weaponry was more effective than you might have expected...Our armor evolved to shed the lasers and particle beams of the Zentraedis' main weapons...They would ablate armor, so Invid bio-composite with its many layers was quite effective at vaporizing safely...It also had some resiliency against impacts, but once a round penetrated inside, it tended to bounce...Many a Drone who might have survived multiple hits by a Regult or Glaug's PBCs, would fall to a single well-placed Quadranno autocannon round, or a burst of GU ammunition.
Of your missiles, I can concur they were most effective, and reminded us all most unpleasantly via communal memory of the Quadrannos...There, there was proof of the dark connections between your species and the hated Masters, in your apparent adoption of their most effective attack....Is it any surprise, then, that we would attempt to copy your missile systems, if only to pay the memory back in kind?"
Of your missiles, I can concur they were most effective, and reminded us all most unpleasantly via communal memory of the Quadrannos...There, there was proof of the dark connections between your species and the hated Masters, in your apparent adoption of their most effective attack....Is it any surprise, then, that we would attempt to copy your missile systems, if only to pay the memory back in kind?"
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Continuing to take notes. Looks up at the mention of getting caught in a space fold, causes a slight frown. Again looks a wrist watch. Then back to the speaker.:::
Last edited by Aramanthus on Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
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Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Looks at the bespectacled individual as he looks over this way. Making sure he and I have eye contact for at least one second. Quietly put hand into pocket and pull out special ID. Flip open to reveal Celestial Intervention Agency ID. Make sure to smmile at him broadly!!:::
:::Hand continues to take notes as this go on.:::
:::Hand continues to take notes as this go on.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
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Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
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taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
"We were used to GROWING our armor, rather than cast or roll it from metal alloys...another shortcut our biotechnology had in taking us from an agrarian society to a spacefaring military one....Plus the fact that our society, having what humans call a 'hive mentallity', could focus more of our population's energies on the necessary changes and labors....'all marching in lockstep' as one human sociologist called it....Whereas Humanit seemed to splinter after the Rain of Death, despite a promising early unity...One wonders what might have happened had Humanity had a similar social structure to our own, after the Rain of Death...Would you have met the Masters halfway to your world and destroyed them? And met my own race at Tirol in greater strength?
...And that, ironically when our own race had divided between Regis and Regent, which was more of a blow to our strategic capabilities than you might guess."
(Meanwhile the Invid Enforcer next to him is feeling a little queasy about the aberrant space/time energies in the back row....)
...And that, ironically when our own race had divided between Regis and Regent, which was more of a blow to our strategic capabilities than you might guess."
(Meanwhile the Invid Enforcer next to him is feeling a little queasy about the aberrant space/time energies in the back row....)
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
"Ah, irony....'ships that pass in the night' and all that tragicomic drama that appeals to human lore-smiths...JUst as we were lured as a people by the explorative spirit of the early Tirolian visitors to our world...If only in our absorption of their technology, we had also seen their potential for malice...How different THAT might have been and how it might have changed things...
But that was neither here nor there...Why, with our adaptibility and biotech did we not come up with new armor? I cannot say for certain....dipping into what communal memories of the entirity of the Invid race has become less certain since I was evolved to human form, and as a lower caste drone, we had no need for such ponderings, but perhaps the Regis was just as narrowminded as your own naval architects who planned for facing Zentreadi-style attacks, and instead met Bioroids.....Having had her most experience with facing hordes of Zentraedi, the Regis automatically assumed you were similar, and met ypu on similar terms....Seeing in your smaller numbers a foe even more likely to be overwhelmed by sheer numbers....She may have begun adapting to what she saw on the ground in guerilla combat with Humans, but to her, the Resistance was a token effort that WOULD eventually be swept away...So development of radical new strategies and tactics took a second place to refining existing tactics and strategies...Otherwise, we MIGHT well have had that new armor, missiles, and even surprises like Zentraedi-style orbital weapons batteries securing the Protoculture world...."
But that was neither here nor there...Why, with our adaptibility and biotech did we not come up with new armor? I cannot say for certain....dipping into what communal memories of the entirity of the Invid race has become less certain since I was evolved to human form, and as a lower caste drone, we had no need for such ponderings, but perhaps the Regis was just as narrowminded as your own naval architects who planned for facing Zentreadi-style attacks, and instead met Bioroids.....Having had her most experience with facing hordes of Zentraedi, the Regis automatically assumed you were similar, and met ypu on similar terms....Seeing in your smaller numbers a foe even more likely to be overwhelmed by sheer numbers....She may have begun adapting to what she saw on the ground in guerilla combat with Humans, but to her, the Resistance was a token effort that WOULD eventually be swept away...So development of radical new strategies and tactics took a second place to refining existing tactics and strategies...Otherwise, we MIGHT well have had that new armor, missiles, and even surprises like Zentraedi-style orbital weapons batteries securing the Protoculture world...."
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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The Artist Formerly
- Champion
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 2:01 am
- Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
- Location: High in the Tower of Yellow, Swanky town.
jedi078 wrote:Major Fury wrote:OOC: Again this discussion is just on things seen in the original RPG. They weren't seen in it hence for this thread I believe as glitterboy has stated they don't exist.
OOC: BUT they do exist, and we KNOW the RPG as written has flaws. So why don't you face the truth in these "School of Armored Warfare" threads and use information as seen on screen in the anime?
It would be like talking about previous wars in RL history without using the technology of today to asses the battles, such as what we see on History Channels "Dog Fights," "Lost Evidence," and "Shootout."
That's my two cents.
OOC
Problem is, differances of opinion arise. How many rounds does a gun carry? How fast does a machine go? What's it's armor values? How much fuel does it carry? How many man hours does it take to keep a machine operational in the field? Two people can see the same video clip and have radically differant opinions. Or, and this happens a lot, people can take two seperate bits that seem to contradict each other and have radically differant opinions. By sticking to what's in the books, everyone is starting on the same page and a discussion can then have foundation and basis built on information that everyone has access to.
When I look in the dictionary and see the word Cool...I see Taffy's picture...-Shady Slug
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
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Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Watches the bespecticaled individual as he ask the question. Moving around causes a small pen like item to fall out of pocket and skitter across the floor. He rolls his eyes up and tries to slide his foot out to snare the small pen like device.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Dracurian wrote:taalismn wrote:
(Meanwhile the Invid Enforcer next to him is feeling a little queasy about the aberrant space/time energies in the back row....)
:: Only from the corner of the eye does it seem the bespecticaled form seems to flicker, when eyes focus upon the figure all is normal once more::
"Question Lieutenant!?" ::raises hand & speaks with strange accent::
"Given the R.E.F. mecha armour has a resistance to laser weaponry, has a similar resistance been observed by Invid mecha, to say, plasma or heat based weaponry?"
"I'd heard Hive rumor, as such, that the Scientist Caste were working on such things, given that a great number of our Hives were on prior Human military sites, if not actually IN them....But as the most dangerous Human weaponry seemed projectile-based, rather than energy-based, the Regis saw fit to concentrate her Scientists' efforts on missile weaponry...and on evolving the Invid form so as to ultimately be superior to the Human resistance....Aside from some efforts to re-start and adapt Southern Cross factories...those that weren't vaporized during the Masters' war or our own arrival...However, I don't believe anything ever came of it....I could be wrong, however; the Scientist Caste were rather more closeted in their thoughts than the other segments of our population.."
(meanwhile the pen device skitters down the floor, catches briefly against the underside of a student's chair, then continues its roll towards the bottom of the lecture pit....)
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
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Protoculture
the show has no shadow cyclones
::The show has Shadow-equipped Cyclones, of both Bartley & Battler models, notwithstanding RT: Invasion console games or RTSC. This is evidenced with Sue Graham's Jupiter Division units who are destroyed while attempting ground insertion operation near Reflex Point.::
Uhhh, sir, my question sir? How about the stealth Cycs, sir?
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Protoculture
the VAF-6 models served in both the Expeditionary force, as well as the Armies of the Southern Cross. in the Southern Cross forces the Alpha was eclipsed by the Logan and later Ajax fighters, which were better suited ot the more confined battlefeilds the Southern Cross dealt with. most of the Alpha's in Southern Cross service were stationed with the UEG navy, flying off the submersible carriers as attack planes, or with the TASC at bases off earth
Uhhh Sir, last time I checked, VF-6 Alpha model series were almost exclusively used by Expeditionary Forces, alongside the Super Logan.
Although, admittedly, the first Alpha prototype, the YF-6 Genia was actually developed to meet TSC & TAF next gen fighter requirement, however, the design was chosen to become VF-6 Alphas by EF, while the TAF only ordered the non transformable VQ-6 Alpha drone units to complement it new fleet of VF-7 Sylphide. Emm, TSC later choose the Logan as the mecha actually fared well against Zentraedi mechas during the late 2010s battling Zent malcontents either in debris ring or hostile Zents that remain hiding in asteroid belt & the deeper reaches of our Sol-system.
Well, the surviving Alpha progenitor, YF-6 Genia actually sported the SCA emblem, not the EF's.
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Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Looks at the Major and frowns::: "Did you have to blast my sonic screwdriver!" :::Mumbles::: "It was was almost totally harmless. Now I have to make another one. Dang it."
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
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Snuffy
- Dungeon Crawler
- Posts: 353
- Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 3:28 pm
- Location: Prospect, Connecticut
- Contact:
Raises hand while sitting in the back row taking notes,"Lieutenant, What are the performance losses while operating on a higher gravity arena? I ask this because the weapon systems are projectile based with no energy weapons for these areas. On another concern, I believe Major Fury missed his target." Looks at Major Fury and then looks at the Enforcer with the ole huh??? are you thinking??? look.
OOC:
first time I've been censored. Sorry, didn't know acronyms were bad. Me bad.
OOC:
first time I've been censored. Sorry, didn't know acronyms were bad. Me bad.-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
"Yes, Lieutenant. Could you answer that question, please!" :::Looks like his best friend has been killed.::::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13474
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
This is not a class on historical Fiction. the 'Shadow Cyclones' and 'YF-6 Genia' you are so interested in are about as real as the F-19 stealth fighter or the Aurora spy plane of the late twentieth century. that being, they only exist in the imaginations of the media.
likewise this is not a class in revisionist history. the Alpha was available to the Southern Cross forces. remember, it's creation predates the development of both the Southern Cross and the Expeditionary forces. but the Southern Cross did not make extensive use of the plane like the REF did. in part, this was because of its role. the Alpha, despite what the media likes to say about it, is not a dogfighter. it is an attack plane. the Logan used so heavily by the southern cross is an interceptor, and its small size helps it in urban pacification when deployed on the ground. the Ajax is a space superiority fighter, a role which the Alpha is only marginally capable.
the Southern Cross did not need an attack plane as expensive as the Alpha, they had access to a wide range of conventional aircraft to fill those roles. the REF however could not get by with conventional planes, as conventional planes were hardly as versatile as Veritechs in the sorts of space to ground assaults they were conducting against the Regent and later the Regis.
as for the Super Logan, i will cover that craft in detail in a later lecture, but the Super-Logan was never officially deployed. its use was restricted mostly to prototypes thrown into combat to replace combat losses.
(OOC: the shadow cyclones, the 'YF-6 genia', and the 'VF-7 Sylphide' Do not exist in the RPG, and thus are not part of the universe of this thread. i would prefer you do not continue to disrupt things by trying to force in non-RPG-canon mecha. i am following the RPG. i have taken liberties, but they are logical ones. the alpha predates the ASC in the RPG, so the ASC would have access to them. the VAF-6 Shadow Alpha is seen in the show, and is a logical start to the shadow fighter programs, so i added it. making it a limited run of converted 6C's merely keeps things blanced.)
likewise this is not a class in revisionist history. the Alpha was available to the Southern Cross forces. remember, it's creation predates the development of both the Southern Cross and the Expeditionary forces. but the Southern Cross did not make extensive use of the plane like the REF did. in part, this was because of its role. the Alpha, despite what the media likes to say about it, is not a dogfighter. it is an attack plane. the Logan used so heavily by the southern cross is an interceptor, and its small size helps it in urban pacification when deployed on the ground. the Ajax is a space superiority fighter, a role which the Alpha is only marginally capable.
the Southern Cross did not need an attack plane as expensive as the Alpha, they had access to a wide range of conventional aircraft to fill those roles. the REF however could not get by with conventional planes, as conventional planes were hardly as versatile as Veritechs in the sorts of space to ground assaults they were conducting against the Regent and later the Regis.
as for the Super Logan, i will cover that craft in detail in a later lecture, but the Super-Logan was never officially deployed. its use was restricted mostly to prototypes thrown into combat to replace combat losses.
(OOC: the shadow cyclones, the 'YF-6 genia', and the 'VF-7 Sylphide' Do not exist in the RPG, and thus are not part of the universe of this thread. i would prefer you do not continue to disrupt things by trying to force in non-RPG-canon mecha. i am following the RPG. i have taken liberties, but they are logical ones. the alpha predates the ASC in the RPG, so the ASC would have access to them. the VAF-6 Shadow Alpha is seen in the show, and is a logical start to the shadow fighter programs, so i added it. making it a limited run of converted 6C's merely keeps things blanced.)
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Continues taking notes, while waiting for theLT to answer the other question.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
-
glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13474
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Gravity conditions did effect performance significantly, but most worlds the REF dealt with were largely earth like. differing gravity conditions actually had a double effect. Atmospheric pressure and density is a direct result of planetary gravity, and high gravity worlds usually had higher density atmospheres, with higher atmospheric pressures.
this meant that the craft was slower and less agile, as the thrust not only had to offset more drag, but also had to push the plane through a denser medium than it normally would be dealing with. in theory the Alpha could operate at pressures and densities equivalent to being underwater like in the oceans of earth, but the performance was geared for atmospheric flight in an earth standard atmosphere. anything denser and thicker than that quickly degraded its abilities. the one advantage higher gravity worlds had was in lift. the denser atmosphere provided more lift per square foot of wing, which helped offset the loss of speed somewhat.
lighter gravity worlds were much preferred. the fighter could easily operate in the thinner atmospheres and the lower escape velocity meant that on some worlds the fighter could even reach low orbit on its own power.
weapons wise the missiles and ballistic gunpod were effected in much the same ways. the higher gravity and dense atmospheres reduced the effective ranges of the weapons, a major hindrance in operations. on lighter gravity worlds the weapons had a much extended effective range.
thankfully, high gravity worlds tended to degrade optical and EM sensors as well, which while reducing the already pathetic sensors on the Alpha, kept our opponents just as blind as we were. the plasma weaponry preferred by the invid also were degraded in range and power in the thicker atmospheres, so the odds against us were not as bad as it might have been.
this meant that the craft was slower and less agile, as the thrust not only had to offset more drag, but also had to push the plane through a denser medium than it normally would be dealing with. in theory the Alpha could operate at pressures and densities equivalent to being underwater like in the oceans of earth, but the performance was geared for atmospheric flight in an earth standard atmosphere. anything denser and thicker than that quickly degraded its abilities. the one advantage higher gravity worlds had was in lift. the denser atmosphere provided more lift per square foot of wing, which helped offset the loss of speed somewhat.
lighter gravity worlds were much preferred. the fighter could easily operate in the thinner atmospheres and the lower escape velocity meant that on some worlds the fighter could even reach low orbit on its own power.
weapons wise the missiles and ballistic gunpod were effected in much the same ways. the higher gravity and dense atmospheres reduced the effective ranges of the weapons, a major hindrance in operations. on lighter gravity worlds the weapons had a much extended effective range.
thankfully, high gravity worlds tended to degrade optical and EM sensors as well, which while reducing the already pathetic sensors on the Alpha, kept our opponents just as blind as we were. the plasma weaponry preferred by the invid also were degraded in range and power in the thicker atmospheres, so the odds against us were not as bad as it might have been.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
-
taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
"And for that matter, what of these rumors I hear that the Mars Division ships were inadequately designed for safe atmospheric re-entry? I'll admitt that our defense forces did considerable damage to that force, but it seemed even to our inexperienced eyes that some of those ships should have been able to survive atmospheric entry...or at least abort and attempt to leave the battle area... Were there perhaps..'quality control' issues with the equipment equipping some of your forces? "
(looks thoughtfully at the smoking remains of something on the floor, then back at the Enforcer next to him, who's still peering nervously around the curve of the energy shield-buckler it had been using as a writing surface in lue of a desk large enough to accomodate the Enforcer's shape, at the source of the weapon-level protoculture energy spike....shakes head in dismay...)
(looks thoughtfully at the smoking remains of something on the floor, then back at the Enforcer next to him, who's still peering nervously around the curve of the energy shield-buckler it had been using as a writing surface in lue of a desk large enough to accomodate the Enforcer's shape, at the source of the weapon-level protoculture energy spike....shakes head in dismay...)
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Taking more notes on the robotech information. Also noting the comings and going of the extransous people circulating throughout the class room out of the corner of his eye.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Aramanthus wrote::::Taking more notes on the robotech information. Also noting the comings and going of the extransous people circulating throughout the class room out of the corner of his eye.:::
(Especially the group of dizzily weaving and wobbling cadets from Medical: Vertigo Testing down the hall..."The Course That Separates the Pilots from the Bazooka-Barfers"...They're usually well-chaperoned after a spin in "The Chair"...but occasionally one slips through the net....)
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::The dizzy cadet slowly and unsteadily makes his way towards an empty chair.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Aramanthus wrote::::The dizzy cadet slowly and unsteadily makes his way towards an empty chair.:::
(The sight of three clone Tirolian brothers sitting next to each other doesn't help the cadet's vertigo one bit...)
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Cadet who is suffering vertigo::: "um ssshhhur! sssshhhhuuurrrr!
ralph!!!!!!!!"
ralph!!!!!!!!"
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::noting the new arrival, checking the apparent watch after the new person's arrival.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
Snuffy
- Dungeon Crawler
- Posts: 353
- Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 3:28 pm
- Location: Prospect, Connecticut
- Contact:
-Notices the tough guy walking in, then notices the old RDF uniform....there's more strangers among us....
"Lt Isle Sir, since the Cyclone has been added to the Alpha as a back-up system: has there been any thought of changing the cockpit of the Alpha's to accommodate the pilots already suited in their Cyclone? Something like what was seen in the Malcontent years with the Female Power Armors? Although this wouldn't be ideal for long missions, it would have added protection for high combat areas and possible survivability."
OOC: Reference Strike Force or Zentraedi Breakout
"Lt Isle Sir, since the Cyclone has been added to the Alpha as a back-up system: has there been any thought of changing the cockpit of the Alpha's to accommodate the pilots already suited in their Cyclone? Something like what was seen in the Malcontent years with the Female Power Armors? Although this wouldn't be ideal for long missions, it would have added protection for high combat areas and possible survivability."
OOC: Reference Strike Force or Zentraedi Breakout
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
"I concur sir. It would have helped save many pilots over the years. It would have saved Commander Fokker."
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13474
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
lets move onto our next topic. a unit i could easily have covered in our last lecture, but which is unique enough to warrant a closer look.
of course i'm referring to the VAF-7S Shadow Alpha. the 7S was the first shadow fighter to be built around a shadow device, as opposed to merely refitted with one. the 7S originally was a replacement Alpha design intended to address some of the perceived flaws in the 6C model. when the Shadow Device became available the blueprints were quickly updated to incorporate the revolutionary device.
the changes to the basic alpha were fairly simple. aside from the shadow device, the 7S packed a pair of flip up missile launchers on the chest that added another twenty four missiles to the already impressive armament. as these short ranged missiles had already proven themselves reasonably effective against the Invid and zentreadi, this was a good addition, extending the ammunition supply and thus how long the unit could remain in combat. however, the flip up nature of the missile racks caused more trouble than i think they were worth. in space these launchers could be used with little problem in all modes. but once in the atmosphere... well lets just say that the alpha didn't need a second set of airbrakes. closed the things were fairly aerodynamic, but open they caused so much drag the planes tended to pitch up in flight, and if you were travelling supersonic the stress on the launchers threatened to rip them right off the fuselage. everything was reinforced and built up to withstand such use, but in combat you don't want to hear anything on your plane moaning and groaning, much less your weapon systems!
the other big change was the EU-13 Destabilizer. although there had some experimentation with energy gunpods during the war with the Regent and even a few energy weapon versions of the GU-XX sent along with Mars Division, nearly every Alpha had been equipped with a ballistic gunpod. but for the Shadow Fighter they came up with a very impressive energy weapon pod to replace the GU. it had roughly comparable firepower, although its rate of fire was limited. the big advantage of the EU-13 was that it had a 'destabilizer' mode that could disrupt invid shields, creating holes large enough for Cyclone riders to travel through. a few shots could easily open up a hole large enough for a veritech or destroid. this mode however drew so much power that it could not operate on its own internal energy supply. a mount was added to the shoulder where the weapon could be attached to draw on the protoculture powerplant of the fighter itself, which had more than sufficient power available. the same mount was added on the 'back', where the weapon would be mounted in fighter mode, between the arms. the weapon was angular and bulky, and could only be carried between the arms in fighter mode. the old underwing mounts for the GU were retained, but rarely used.
according to the sources i have available the destabilizer is supposed to be able to effect more than just invid shields. it is able to punch holes in shield systems of both the masters, and the barrier shields of the RDF and REF vessels. how effective the destabilizer is against those two shield systems is classified, so i can't tell you how well it works for that.
i never got to fly a 7S in combat against the invid, but i did get to take one up after reflex point on a few patrols. the flaws of the Alpha sixes were present in the seven, much to my dismay. weak radar system, no thermal or night vision modes for the optics, and controls still just a bit too simplified. and with the shadow device operating, you can't operate radar or normal radio without giving away your position to the enemy. against the lower rank invid this didn't matter, but the Royal command battloids can equipped with a full Em suite as well as the protoculture sensors, and those pilots could guide the lower ranks right in on you. it took Intelligence about two weeks to figure that out from after action reports and sensor logs, and by then the Regis had been long gone, making the point somewhat moot. and if we end up fighting the invid again, who knows what we'll be up against.
shadow fighters are still pretty rare, and most are in the hands of the REF and UEG so you may not ever encounter a hostile one, but if you do, your in for a world of hurt. your radar won't see it at all, and visual targeting methods are fairly inaccurate. the guidance system on missiles will only work about half as well if he's not actively emitting EM sources, so if his radar isn't on your not going to find him. but his missiles will work fine in tracking you, so be prepared to use all your evasive skills to stay alive. if you have to take on a shadow fighter, i recommend hitting the deck and operating Nape of Earth, and try to lose yourself in the ground clutter. this will negate his missile advantage and force him to come down and try to get you with guns. if you can't hide yourself, start praying that the pilot has mercy and dodge as if your life depends on it, because it probably does. try to out fly your opponent, because you won't be able to out fight it.
of course i'm referring to the VAF-7S Shadow Alpha. the 7S was the first shadow fighter to be built around a shadow device, as opposed to merely refitted with one. the 7S originally was a replacement Alpha design intended to address some of the perceived flaws in the 6C model. when the Shadow Device became available the blueprints were quickly updated to incorporate the revolutionary device.
the changes to the basic alpha were fairly simple. aside from the shadow device, the 7S packed a pair of flip up missile launchers on the chest that added another twenty four missiles to the already impressive armament. as these short ranged missiles had already proven themselves reasonably effective against the Invid and zentreadi, this was a good addition, extending the ammunition supply and thus how long the unit could remain in combat. however, the flip up nature of the missile racks caused more trouble than i think they were worth. in space these launchers could be used with little problem in all modes. but once in the atmosphere... well lets just say that the alpha didn't need a second set of airbrakes. closed the things were fairly aerodynamic, but open they caused so much drag the planes tended to pitch up in flight, and if you were travelling supersonic the stress on the launchers threatened to rip them right off the fuselage. everything was reinforced and built up to withstand such use, but in combat you don't want to hear anything on your plane moaning and groaning, much less your weapon systems!
the other big change was the EU-13 Destabilizer. although there had some experimentation with energy gunpods during the war with the Regent and even a few energy weapon versions of the GU-XX sent along with Mars Division, nearly every Alpha had been equipped with a ballistic gunpod. but for the Shadow Fighter they came up with a very impressive energy weapon pod to replace the GU. it had roughly comparable firepower, although its rate of fire was limited. the big advantage of the EU-13 was that it had a 'destabilizer' mode that could disrupt invid shields, creating holes large enough for Cyclone riders to travel through. a few shots could easily open up a hole large enough for a veritech or destroid. this mode however drew so much power that it could not operate on its own internal energy supply. a mount was added to the shoulder where the weapon could be attached to draw on the protoculture powerplant of the fighter itself, which had more than sufficient power available. the same mount was added on the 'back', where the weapon would be mounted in fighter mode, between the arms. the weapon was angular and bulky, and could only be carried between the arms in fighter mode. the old underwing mounts for the GU were retained, but rarely used.
according to the sources i have available the destabilizer is supposed to be able to effect more than just invid shields. it is able to punch holes in shield systems of both the masters, and the barrier shields of the RDF and REF vessels. how effective the destabilizer is against those two shield systems is classified, so i can't tell you how well it works for that.
i never got to fly a 7S in combat against the invid, but i did get to take one up after reflex point on a few patrols. the flaws of the Alpha sixes were present in the seven, much to my dismay. weak radar system, no thermal or night vision modes for the optics, and controls still just a bit too simplified. and with the shadow device operating, you can't operate radar or normal radio without giving away your position to the enemy. against the lower rank invid this didn't matter, but the Royal command battloids can equipped with a full Em suite as well as the protoculture sensors, and those pilots could guide the lower ranks right in on you. it took Intelligence about two weeks to figure that out from after action reports and sensor logs, and by then the Regis had been long gone, making the point somewhat moot. and if we end up fighting the invid again, who knows what we'll be up against.
shadow fighters are still pretty rare, and most are in the hands of the REF and UEG so you may not ever encounter a hostile one, but if you do, your in for a world of hurt. your radar won't see it at all, and visual targeting methods are fairly inaccurate. the guidance system on missiles will only work about half as well if he's not actively emitting EM sources, so if his radar isn't on your not going to find him. but his missiles will work fine in tracking you, so be prepared to use all your evasive skills to stay alive. if you have to take on a shadow fighter, i recommend hitting the deck and operating Nape of Earth, and try to lose yourself in the ground clutter. this will negate his missile advantage and force him to come down and try to get you with guns. if you can't hide yourself, start praying that the pilot has mercy and dodge as if your life depends on it, because it probably does. try to out fly your opponent, because you won't be able to out fight it.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
"I was thinking of some sort of personal reingorced pilot suit. Not the cyclone as the pilot suit. Just something to protect the pilot versus cockpit penetrating projectiles."
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13474
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Expeditionary Forces Pilots flew wearing CVR armor, which was designed to be wearable in the cockpit. it wasn't very comfortable on those long missions, but knowing that a cockpit breach wouldn't cause severe decompression or that shrapnel from hits wouldn't kill you was a great confort. before the invention of CVR pilots used the RDF hardshell armors of the reconstruction period. Southern Cross pilots preferred their own specialized armor suits, which were basically on par with the CVR suits.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Shakes head, understanding the content of the material revealed by the Lt. Continuing to keep quality notes.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
batlchip
- Hero
- Posts: 923
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:16 pm
- Comment: Even the great thinkers and writers in history messed up sometimes.
- Location: L.S.S
:RDF LT looks around than speaks: The alpha is an okay machine but its sensory equipment problems make it unrealible. Compaired to the RDF veritechs which as a radar range of 200 miles as well as a much better service life.
Who is evil?
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
-
taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
"Pity we never developed anything quite as effective as CVR armor....of course, for our lower-development castes, their mecha WAS their armor, and personal armor like the Enforcers(nods to his companion) was a caste specialization unto itself...By the time the Regis was evolving -US-, she was still following the old model of mecha-as-main-garment...in retrospect we were lucky to have the padded armor we did have, instead of the robes of the Science castes...and even THAT was an echo of the Tirolians' own style...or lack there of...
THat's another area where our adaptation fell short...Even as she was evolving us, the Regis failed to take into account the proven value of foot infantry...and the necessary protection for them...though there were rumors of more humanoid models of the Enforcer suits being developed...those would have served as both protection and escape mechanism for Solugi pilots."
THat's another area where our adaptation fell short...Even as she was evolving us, the Regis failed to take into account the proven value of foot infantry...and the necessary protection for them...though there were rumors of more humanoid models of the Enforcer suits being developed...those would have served as both protection and escape mechanism for Solugi pilots."
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
-
glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13474
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
the Alpha's sensor problems were its biggest drawback, but i think you overstate the Valkyrie's advantages. the VF-1's had far more moving parts, required constant repair, and had a performance inadequet to meet the modern battlefield. their large size makes them less effective in the urban and forested battlefields of the post rain era, and their limited flight ability in battloid makes them too slow to keep up with the more agile zentreadi mecha, much less Bioroids or Invid.
the one advantage the VF-1 has over the Alpha is in firepower and thrust. the VF-1's oversized engines allow it to reach hypersonic velocities, although at any speed over mach 3 you were flying on instruments only due to friction, and you were limited to pretty much straight line courses. the VF-1 was designed to fight a war that never occured, where the UEG forces would scramble veritechs to respond rapidly to any location on earth to stop an invasion. the VF's also could carry heavy long range armaments, including the nuclear tipped anti-shipping missiles used against Dolza's fleet. these long range missiles were also the reason the VF needed that long range sensor gear.
of course, those two advantages were the reason the Expeditionary forces developed the Beta fighter. a full legios leaves a VF in the dust in both armament, thrust, and protection. and it is easier to keep in repair. no new Valkyrie frames had been built since the late 2020's, and the remaining planes were showing their age by the time the Beta and the Vindicator fully replaced them.
the one advantage the VF-1 has over the Alpha is in firepower and thrust. the VF-1's oversized engines allow it to reach hypersonic velocities, although at any speed over mach 3 you were flying on instruments only due to friction, and you were limited to pretty much straight line courses. the VF-1 was designed to fight a war that never occured, where the UEG forces would scramble veritechs to respond rapidly to any location on earth to stop an invasion. the VF's also could carry heavy long range armaments, including the nuclear tipped anti-shipping missiles used against Dolza's fleet. these long range missiles were also the reason the VF needed that long range sensor gear.
of course, those two advantages were the reason the Expeditionary forces developed the Beta fighter. a full legios leaves a VF in the dust in both armament, thrust, and protection. and it is easier to keep in repair. no new Valkyrie frames had been built since the late 2020's, and the remaining planes were showing their age by the time the Beta and the Vindicator fully replaced them.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Taking notes of the last few speakers. Making sure that the bespectacled man is still under observation out of the corner if his eye.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
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batlchip
- Hero
- Posts: 923
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:16 pm
- Comment: Even the great thinkers and writers in history messed up sometimes.
- Location: L.S.S
Urban combat is where the VF-1 cut its teeth or have you forgotten the fighting in Macross City?Also,The RDF veritechs were used in a varity of roles including uban combat remmber Khyron?Needed constant repair where did you see that?Okay I agree that the Legios has more thrust and a heck of a lot of firepower. The alpha is also cheaper,smaller and newer.And,yes the VF-1 is old and the battloid mode is slow.If I recall the alpha and beta only had a couple of months of power compaired to the RDF veritechs.Don't forget that alot of old veritechs went with the REF and most to my knowing are stil in active duty.
*ooc read the adventure in the back of the REF Field Guide
*ooc read the adventure in the back of the REF Field Guide
Who is evil?
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
-
glitterboy2098
- Rifts® Trivia Master
- Posts: 13474
- Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
the VF-1 also was a fine tuned machine. which was its biggest flaw. the parts were made using metallurgy and materials science that had not yet absorbed all the revalations from the SDF-1, and tended to break and wear far too quickly. and when parts didn't work right, performance suffered.
the alpha on the otherhand is the result of a more mature technology. most of the parts were built to last longer, they came in modular components easy to swap out and work on, and the avionics were made with distributed redundant systems so it could take damage and keep working. to disable an alpha you pretty much had to blow it inhalf, and the things could go for weeks between maintenece cycles if nessicary without jepordising performance.
as for the use of the VF-1 in the REF, yes a good number were taken along. and the majority of those were replaced by the Vindicator in the late 2030's. the handful that remain in service are from the last production run, and are probably going to be replaced soon as well.
i must say i'm curious though. how did an RDF pilot of your apparent age get here to 2058?
the alpha on the otherhand is the result of a more mature technology. most of the parts were built to last longer, they came in modular components easy to swap out and work on, and the avionics were made with distributed redundant systems so it could take damage and keep working. to disable an alpha you pretty much had to blow it inhalf, and the things could go for weeks between maintenece cycles if nessicary without jepordising performance.
as for the use of the VF-1 in the REF, yes a good number were taken along. and the majority of those were replaced by the Vindicator in the late 2030's. the handful that remain in service are from the last production run, and are probably going to be replaced soon as well.
i must say i'm curious though. how did an RDF pilot of your apparent age get here to 2058?
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.
-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Very quietly spoken::: "Maybe he's has friend with a time machine."
:::Cintinuing to take extensive notes on the subject.:::
:::Cintinuing to take extensive notes on the subject.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
"Yes Major! You are exactly right!" :::Ducking down into seat and making sure my key is still around my neck.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
batlchip
- Hero
- Posts: 923
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:16 pm
- Comment: Even the great thinkers and writers in history messed up sometimes.
- Location: L.S.S
*winces* The brass doesn't want me to talk about it.*sits back down and looks thoughtfull* Well at least I still have my Lil' Darling,any way sorry for the disruption carry on Lieutenant.
*looks at bespectacled man and smirks*
*looks at bespectacled man and smirks*
Who is evil?
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
-
batlchip
- Hero
- Posts: 923
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:16 pm
- Comment: Even the great thinkers and writers in history messed up sometimes.
- Location: L.S.S
ooc: I look like I'm in my 30's
*Lt pops chewing gum in mouth*'cuse LT but what unit where you fighting in during the first war. I've been flying fighters since the...um never mind I forgot its still classifed.
*Lt pops chewing gum in mouth*'cuse LT but what unit where you fighting in during the first war. I've been flying fighters since the...um never mind I forgot its still classifed.
Who is evil?
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
-
taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
"...mmm....Time travel...longevity treatments....Your race has been around the Flower of Life and Protocultue long enough for some of its ...other...effects...to become manifest...in ways unique to your species....
Me? Racial memory going back over five hundred years...Individual memory of some fifty years...biological age as a human, twenty-five, chronological age as a human, five years....
Care to compare birth certificates?"
Me? Racial memory going back over five hundred years...Individual memory of some fifty years...biological age as a human, twenty-five, chronological age as a human, five years....
Care to compare birth certificates?"
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
-
AdmTolval
- Megaversal® Ambassador
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 7:26 pm
- Location: Asheville, North Carolina
*From a upper corner of the hall, a REF Admiral sits where he's been quietly watching and listening the lecture.*
"Back during the occupation, my group used a couple of VF-1s in addition to REF standard. Some of the problems where with GU-11 gun pod ammo procurement and the size of the VF-1. Granted, I flew a Vindicator that was just as big but I least the shadow device kept me concealed. The VF-1 was just too big to hide while in the field. I kept those at base for backup and heavy assault mission, especially the Supers."
"Back during the occupation, my group used a couple of VF-1s in addition to REF standard. Some of the problems where with GU-11 gun pod ammo procurement and the size of the VF-1. Granted, I flew a Vindicator that was just as big but I least the shadow device kept me concealed. The VF-1 was just too big to hide while in the field. I kept those at base for backup and heavy assault mission, especially the Supers."
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Aramanthus
- Monk
- Posts: 18712
- Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:18 am
- Location: Racine, WI
:::Mumbles something quietly about being 500 again and how nice it was to have been that young once while taking notes. And noting the Rear Admiral.:::
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."
"As you will it, your Grace."
HH....FIE
-
batlchip
- Hero
- Posts: 923
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:16 pm
- Comment: Even the great thinkers and writers in history messed up sometimes.
- Location: L.S.S
*Looks up at Major and spits gum out.Smirks and looks at the door.*I told you sir unless your Max,Rick or Lisa themselves I can't talk about it. *looks at RearAdm and the rest of the class.*I think we should let the prof countiue.I mean this is his class after all.*pulls out a toothpick and put it in his mouth*
Who is evil?
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
Who is joy
Who is pain
Who is death
Who is good
Who is blind
Who is foolish
Who is smart
Me and you that's who
For we are mankind.
-
taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48407
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
"The Invid on occasion did encounter the VF-1s....in close range, those old generators lit up very nicely to our senses, and thus they did very poorly in dogfights....at longer ranges, however, their radar and long range missiels were much more effective...except when they used Protoculture-enhanced Reflex weapons...the longer missile run time merely gave our forces more time to avoid them, or to erect Hive defenses...
One of the two times a hive was subjected to long range nuclear bombardment, was with what I now have learned was an Angel of Death anti-Zentraedi nuclear warhead launched from a VF-1...Though the missile strike failed(and indeed altered a stretch of coastline quite impressively), it frankly scared the HELL out of the local Hive Brain who ordered its forces to eliminate ALL RDF-era equipment in its sector(ironically, that same Brain was to be one of the few taken offline for being increasingly and dangerously unstable), so the VFs did have some impact on us...
For your information, the OTHER nuclear strike was a submarine-launched cruise missile strike against one of the mid-ocean hives...THAT was successful...
One of the two times a hive was subjected to long range nuclear bombardment, was with what I now have learned was an Angel of Death anti-Zentraedi nuclear warhead launched from a VF-1...Though the missile strike failed(and indeed altered a stretch of coastline quite impressively), it frankly scared the HELL out of the local Hive Brain who ordered its forces to eliminate ALL RDF-era equipment in its sector(ironically, that same Brain was to be one of the few taken offline for being increasingly and dangerously unstable), so the VFs did have some impact on us...
For your information, the OTHER nuclear strike was a submarine-launched cruise missile strike against one of the mid-ocean hives...THAT was successful...
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------