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Marcethus wrote:I agree with Alan on this one. With the wings tattoo being the only tattoo to mention that the additional PPE needed to be used to activate that makes it sound very much like it is an optional feature that doesn't have to be used when the tattoo is activated.

What Palladium's wording sounds like and what it means are often not one in the same. It does seem to imply this is optional but nothing states that it is optional. Additional does not mean optional. It however very easily could mean: If you have wings on your tattoo then you must pay the "Additional PPE to activate the wing feature" each time you activate that tattoo. Admittedly it also does not state this, but as you can see the wording fits with saying you must pay the additional fee each time you activate this tattoo. The argument that its the only one listed that states the PPE is additional is weak at best because no other tattoos can be conjoined other than the wings and something else. The blood driping cannot also be flaming (as then it would no longer be sdc) it can only be blood dripping and winged, the flaming and flaming serpernt wrapped cannot be combined because the flaming serpert wrapped is already flaming. So as you can see the only one of these that can ever be additional PPE is the winged because its the only one that can be combined with the other magical tattoo "features". It therefore HAS to be additional PPE because its always added to another weapon tattoo.

But that's not to say that once the tattoo is activated that a person could just spend the amount to activate the wings feature once the tattoo is active. they would have to dismiss the tattoo and reactivate it at full cost with the wing option if they wanted the wing feature.

That is certainly more in line with what it should be IMO.

Thinyser wrote:

Marcethus wrote:I agree with Alan on this one. With the wings tattoo being the only tattoo to mention that the additional PPE needed to be used to activate that makes it sound very much like it is an optional feature that doesn't have to be used when the tattoo is activated.

What Palladium's wording sounds like and what it means are often not one in the same. It does seem to imply this is optional but nothing states that it is optional. Additional does not mean optional. It however very easily could mean: If you have wings on your tattoo then you must pay the "Additional PPE to activate the wing feature" each time you activate that tattoo. Admittedly it also does not state this, but as you can see the wording fits with saying you must pay the additional fee each time you activate this tattoo. The argument that its the only one listed that states the PPE is additional is weak at best because no other tattoos can be conjoined other than the wings and something else. The blood driping cannot also be flaming (as then it would no longer be sdc) it can only be blood dripping and winged, the flaming and flaming serpernt wrapped cannot be combined because the flaming serpert wrapped is already flaming. So as you can see the only one of these that can ever be additional PPE is the winged because its the only one that can be combined with the other magical tattoo "features". It therefore HAS to be additional PPE because its always added to another weapon tattoo.

It could go either way the arguement itself isn't weak at all. Its just a little three legged as in there is only one piece that supports it but in regards to the dripping blood and flaming. They can be mixed I have seen it on numerous NPC's in the books and it is perfectly legal to do it. IIRC the book gives a cost for if it is attached to the flaming weapon in which it doubles the damage as per if it were an sdc weapon but the damage is dealt in MDC. I may be wrong on the book listing a cost for Flaming weapons I don't have my books in front of me.

Marcethus wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Marcethus wrote:I agree with Alan on this one. With the wings tattoo being the only tattoo to mention that the additional PPE needed to be used to activate that makes it sound very much like it is an optional feature that doesn't have to be used when the tattoo is activated.

What Palladium's wording sounds like and what it means are often not one in the same. It does seem to imply this is optional but nothing states that it is optional. Additional does not mean optional. It however very easily could mean: If you have wings on your tattoo then you must pay the "Additional PPE to activate the wing feature" each time you activate that tattoo. Admittedly it also does not state this, but as you can see the wording fits with saying you must pay the additional fee each time you activate this tattoo. The argument that its the only one listed that states the PPE is additional is weak at best because no other tattoos can be conjoined other than the wings and something else. The blood driping cannot also be flaming (as then it would no longer be sdc) it can only be blood dripping and winged, the flaming and flaming serpernt wrapped cannot be combined because the flaming serpert wrapped is already flaming. So as you can see the only one of these that can ever be additional PPE is the winged because its the only one that can be combined with the other magical tattoo "features". It therefore HAS to be additional PPE because its always added to another weapon tattoo.

It could go either way the arguement itself isn't weak at all. Its just a little three legged as in there is only one piece that supports it but in regards to the dripping blood and flaming. They can be mixed I have seen it on numerous NPC's in the books and it is perfectly legal to do it. IIRC the book gives a cost for if it is attached to the flaming weapon in which it doubles the damage as per if it were an sdc weapon but the damage is dealt in MDC. I may be wrong on the book listing a cost for Flaming weapons I don't have my books in front of me.

Well according to the NPC chaing ku dragon in England you can combine blood dripping, flaming, and wings in one weapon but it specifically states that it counts as 3 tattoos... and further a flaming, serpernt wrapped, and winged weapon counts as 3 tatts meaning that the "flaming serpent wrapped weapon" actually counts as 2 tatts! even though its listed in the Atlantis as one and nothing mentions anything about this counting as more than one tatt.

As there is nothing specifing that these tatt's "counts as 3 tattoos" status is only for the total number of tattoos in use at any given time, one must conclude that it also counts as 3 tattoos for purposes of activation... Making any combination possible, but meaning that you must activate each tatt seperatly.

Actually I have always read it to mean that it counts as 3 Tats for the limit of what the person has on the body I have seen this else where, Thank you though for pointing out the reference of where I couldn't for the life of me remember where I had scene it. I do know that I have seen similar NPC's but as TA's Undead Slayers to be specific. I think it was in the adventure thing that game with the GM screen.

Marcethus wrote:Actually I have always read it to mean that it counts as 3 Tats for the limit of what the person has on the body I have seen this else where,

There is no limit to how many they can have on their body there is a limit to how many they can have active at any time... and without specificaion one must conclude that the "counts as 3 tattoos" status applies to anything that involves the number of tatts (ie it takes an action to activate each tattoo this counts as 3 tattoos so it counts as 3 actions). You can choose to read it another way but it clearly states "counts as 3 tattoos"

Yes, Bow and Arrows (4 arrows) is one tattoo. No, there is no limit to how many tattoos you can HAVE, but when the character STARTS, they have a certain number of Tattoos (18 usually), it is those that are being counted. Further, there is a limit to how many tattoos can be recieved at once. That said, it may be possible to upgrade a tattoo after having gotten it.

AlanGunhouse wrote:Yes, Bow and Arrows (4 arrows) is one tattoo. No, there is no limit to how many tattoos you can HAVE, but when the character STARTS, they have a certain number of Tattoos (18 usually), it is those that are being counted. Further, there is a limit to how many tattoos can be recieved at once. That said, it may be possible to upgrade a tattoo after having gotten it.

Exactly I knew there was a reason they had Tattoo limit counts, Beyond for the purpose of how many you can have active.

Not sure on the Upgrading of tatts that would be a GM's call.

Marcethus wrote:

AlanGunhouse wrote:Yes, Bow and Arrows (4 arrows) is one tattoo. No, there is no limit to how many tattoos you can HAVE, but when the character STARTS, they have a certain number of Tattoos (18 usually), it is those that are being counted. Further, there is a limit to how many tattoos can be recieved at once. That said, it may be possible to upgrade a tattoo after having gotten it.

Exactly I knew there was a reason they had Tattoo limit counts, Beyond for the purpose of how many you can have active.

Not sure on the Upgrading of tatts that would be a GM's call.

Irrelevent... A 9th level NPC can have almost any number of tattoos as he can get up to 2 more every 6 months from his "master".

Only PCs really have to worry about leveling up to get more tatts, while those that are slaves have the tatts forced on them as soon as possible... and its noted that even 1st lvl PC runaway slaves can have more than the normal starting tatts with the understanding that they are likely never to be able to find a source for more (but if they were there is no prohibition of them then getting the normal 2 per level on top of the bonus the GM approved to start). I could easily see a renagade slave having been given some extra tatts to start then through years of adventuring and strife (and no tatts) they finally, through greasing the right palms, lubricating the right tongues, and finally winning the right trusts get to a Chiang-Ku tattoo master that for a few favors will grant the former slave additional tatts.

And there you have part of the problem, up to 2 minor or 1 major tattoo every 6 months IF the master decided to give them. In general the master will only give extra tattoos if they are earned through success in tasks given to them (which is why it is generally given on levelling). There is also the little matter of age, humans do not live forever, especially not those who see frequent combat. Assume the child was given 2 minor and 1 major tattoos a year starting at age 12. At age 18, you have 18 tattoos. At age 30, you could have a total of 54 tattoos, but then you have the problem of where to put them. Each tattoo has a certain size and they can not overlap. At some point, every usable piece of skill is going to be covered.

PS: If you can not upgrade a tat, and can only add 2 minor or one major effect at a time, how would you get a tattoo that "counts as 3"?

Thinyser wrote:

Marcethus wrote:

AlanGunhouse wrote:Yes, Bow and Arrows (4 arrows) is one tattoo. No, there is no limit to how many tattoos you can HAVE, but when the character STARTS, they have a certain number of Tattoos (18 usually), it is those that are being counted. Further, there is a limit to how many tattoos can be recieved at once. That said, it may be possible to upgrade a tattoo after having gotten it.

Exactly I knew there was a reason they had Tattoo limit counts, Beyond for the purpose of how many you can have active.

Not sure on the Upgrading of tatts that would be a GM's call.

Irrelevent... A 9th level NPC can have almost any number of tattoos as he can get up to 2 more every 6 months from his "master".

Only PCs really have to worry about leveling up to get more tatts, while those that are slaves have the tatts forced on them as soon as possible... and its noted that even 1st lvl PC runaway slaves can have more than the normal starting tatts with the understanding that they are likely never to be able to find a source for more (but if they were there is no prohibition of them then getting the normal 2 per level on top of the bonus the GM approved to start). I could easily see a renagade slave having been given some extra tatts to start then through years of adventuring and strife (and no tatts) they finally, through greasing the right palms, lubricating the right tongues, and finally winning the right trusts get to a Chiang-Ku tattoo master that for a few favors will grant the former slave additional tatts.

Not irrelevant at all. because from what I have seen those number of tattoos listing doesn't mean for counting as number of tattoos active I have never seen them listed as such anywhere, all those listings say is x tattoo (counts as 2 or 3 tattoos) with no reason as to why they count or what they mean by that. Your commentary on the NPC's not having to worry about it and PC's having to worry about it is more irrelevant than anything else posted on the topic so far.

AlanGunhouse wrote:And there you have part of the problem, up to 2 minor or 1 major tattoo every 6 months IF the master decided to give them. In general the master will only give extra tattoos if they are earned through success in tasks given to them (which is why it is generally given on levelling). There is also the little matter of age, humans do not live forever, especially not those who see frequent combat. Assume the child was given 2 minor and 1 major tattoos a year starting at age 12. At age 18, you have 18 tattoos. At age 30, you could have a total of 54 tattoos, but then you have the problem of where to put them. Each tattoo has a certain size and they can not overlap. At some point, every usable piece of skill is going to be covered.

PS: If you can not upgrade a tat, and can only add 2 minor or one major effect at a time, how would you get a tattoo that "counts as 3"?

Again I am not sure how to answer that last one because again it doesn't say anywhere (IIRC) that they can be upgraded or that they can't. Personally I think that if they could be it would have to be done by the exact same Tattoo Master because other each tattoo will look different (though some more realistic GMs that know tattoos might beg to differ I know,) but just as a general idea I think it would require going to the same person that did the original Tattoo for the upgrade to be effective. If it were allowed.