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Packrat wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

Have you ever seen any manuscript that was turned in and seen what he turned out and saw the difference to know if Kevin knows what he's doing or not?

you mean like MDC-Kangaroos?

I don't see the problem with MDC kangaroos in a world where Floopers, shapers, Bubble makers, phoenexi, spugorth, vampires, robots, and zombies all exist.

Really. And this is the Rifts world we're talking about. You've got a problem with MDC Kangaroos? Then the real world must blow you away with things like the duck-billed platypus.

I mean, c'mon. Who could dream up a cross between a duck, a beaver, and a snake. A mammal that lays eggs and has a poisonous bite?

it's the same problem with rifts indians, and cowboys. They are tacked on because of their historic significance to the area/worldbook, it just feels wrong. Sometimes cliches can be used well, mostly in a humourous way, but the MDC kangaroos were not and fell flat in my eyes, so much so that I nearly groan when thinking about them.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:so he's infallable in your eyes then? There was nothing in Madhaven that didn't make it in, or was perhaps added that you felt unnecessary to your vision of the product?

Well, as Galactis Kid said, We're two different people, he and taylor white wrote madhaven. I just sat around and ate doritos.

Do I think he's Infallible? Nope. On the contrary. BUT: I have seen the original Madhaven, and the released one. I can make an educated remark on what was and what is-completely. I can say whether I should feel cheated or not.

The only way to know if he's fallible or not is to have information, which is simply not available. (Unless you can get the writers of DR to share an original copy). Then, I think you can fairly say "Yeah, I've read the original and K totally ripped us off. The original was awesome possum, and it even told me how to cure cancer, IRL!

Then I think a person can FAIRLY say they have a reason to feel cheated and be justified.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:
1. Dark Brandon didn't write Madhaven. Taylor White and I did. Dark Brandon was a play tester, and a great idea man to bounce ideas off of. Along with Taylor and I, he's the closest thing to an authority on that book. Just a clarification.

bah! You all look alike to me

Oh man, if you only knew. hahaha. Come to the open house and meet us so you can laugh at how Brandon and Dark Brandon are TOTALLY different.

not on the internet they don't

Come to open house, and enjoy the complete opposites we are. If it wasn't for the fact I think Brandon is a pretty cool guy, we'd be mortal enemies.

The Galactus Kid wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

Citizen Lazlo wrote:To be fair NONE of you know how the original stands against Kevin's version.

Shouldn't this be the end of all arguments on Dead Reign?

You would think...

/end thread.

dark brandon wrote:

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:so he's infallable in your eyes then? There was nothing in Madhaven that didn't make it in, or was perhaps added that you felt unnecessary to your vision of the product?

Well, as Galactis Kid said, We're two different people, he and taylor white wrote madhaven. I just sat around and ate doritos.

Do I think he's Infallible? Nope. On the contrary. BUT: I have seen the original Madhaven, and the released one. I can make an educated remark on what was and what is-completely. I can say whether I should feel cheated or not.

The only way to know if he's fallible or not is to have information, which is simply not available. (Unless you can get the writers of DR to share an original copy). Then, I think you can fairly say "Yeah, I've read the original and K totally ripped us off. The original was awesome possum, and it even told me how to cure cancer, IRL!

Then I think a person can FAIRLY say they have a reason to feel cheated and be justified.

What was the major theme of the Rifter version? The AI and his reign of zombies on earth, correct? That is what we were sold and that is what Kevin himself raved about for months, and months, and months. It is fairly evident that Kevin then cast that aside, after it demanded a near complete rewrite from him. Sure he left that as a possibility, but the original premise of the game and the one sold in the Rifter was the Brylux (sp?) one, and with that now taking a backseat, people are justifiably miffed that what had been promised has not been delivered. There are several games already on the market for your standard zombie survival game, hell you can already use After the Bomb for it or Beyond the Supernatural. Instead people were looking forward to a zombie game that had a little extra something thrown in, namely magic, psionics and a greater overall menace with which to deal with. That is what was promised and that is not what we got.

In closing my only hopes of this, is that this outcry from the fans for that something different that we wanted and did not get, is that Kevin listens to them and devotes a sourcebook to it, and maybe it will come out before an actual zombiepocalypse occurs sometime around 2030
Lord knows, he has plenty of material from the Joshs to take from.

dark brandon wrote:

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:
1. Dark Brandon didn't write Madhaven. Taylor White and I did. Dark Brandon was a play tester, and a great idea man to bounce ideas off of. Along with Taylor and I, he's the closest thing to an authority on that book. Just a clarification.

bah! You all look alike to me

Oh man, if you only knew. hahaha. Come to the open house and meet us so you can laugh at how Brandon and Dark Brandon are TOTALLY different.

not on the internet they don't

Come to open house, and enjoy the complete opposites we are. If it wasn't for the fact I think Brandon is a pretty cool guy, we'd be mortal enemies.

I wouldn't mind that actually, alas, the Open House occurs on my busiest work season and getting away for that long is an impossibility.

again though for the record; the joke was that on the internet, everyone is the same, you are all just medium, black fill font to me.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:it's the same problem with rifts indians, and cowboys. They are tacked on because of their historic significance to the area/worldbook, it just feels wrong. Sometimes cliches can be used well, mostly in a humourous way, but the MDC kangaroos were not and fell flat in my eyes, so much so that I nearly groan when thinking about them.

Don't even get me started on the Mega Damge Bears and Beavers in Rifts Canada. If your going to include something like that at least give it a good background story. Not the usual "Ley Line Energy changed it".

me personally i would like the game as it sounds like it was written no magic just
people against the zombies

what i would do tho is take each of the stated possible ideas for how it all
started and give them a small source book like they did with the tolkeen
war with needed changes places of note and new people that way you could
take the core book and have the option to move the game any way you like

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:What was the major theme of the Rifter version? The AI and his reign of zombies on earth, correct? That is what we were sold and that is what Kevin himself raved about for months, and months, and months. It is fairly evident that Kevin then cast that aside, after it demanded a near complete rewrite from him. Sure he left that as a possibility, but the original premise of the game and the one sold in the Rifter was the Brylux (sp?) one, and with that now taking a backseat, people are justifiably miffed that what had been promised has not been delivered. There are several games already on the market for your standard zombie survival game, hell you can already use After the Bomb for it or Beyond the Supernatural. Instead people were looking forward to a zombie game that had a little extra something thrown in, namely magic, psionics and a greater overall menace with which to deal with. That is what was promised and that is not what we got.

To me it's not so much the rewrite. He paid for the manuscript and do what he wants with it. Heck he coul use it to line the gutters of his home if he wanted. What bothered and still bothers me is that up until two months ago it seemed that Kevin had read the manuscript loved it and was raving about it. Two months before the book is release he admits to not having read it and needs to rewrite 70% of the book.

Why promote and hype a book you have not read or just glanced through at most? Why not just admit that due to too much work and time constraints that he was unable to get around to it. It's not like it's the first time a book was shelved because of too much backlog. In any case unless it's a book Kevin writes on his own I will no longer believe anything he says about a freelancers manuscript until a month or two before release. I just can't no longer trust what he says about a manuscript until then.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:In closing my only hopes of this, is that this outcry from the fans for that something different that we wanted and did not get, is that Kevin listens to them and devotes a sourcebook to it, and maybe it will come out before an actual zombiepocalypse occurs sometime around 2030
Lord knows, he has plenty of material from the Joshs to take from.

From what Kevin has said in his latest Murmur we should be seeing more of the original DR manuscript in the next Rifter or after so at least for the moment some good has come of it.
As for DR not having magic and psionics I don't think that is a bad thing. I am unhappy that they removed it from the origin story otherwise not every setting has to have either one o the other. Even All Flesh Must Be Eaten does not automatically include magic or psionics in their core book except as and add on. And honestly how many zombie movies have either one or the other in the film.

Citizen Lazlo wrote:the magic and psionics were a rare thing in the original book, they were the spices not the meat & potatos.

I love the meat and potato burrito from taco bell.

Nothing of value here...just sharing.

And honestly how many zombie movies have either one or the other in the film.

None that i know of and that's what made the preview from the Rifter #40 such a cool thing. No pure zombie plague game that i know of doesn't have either one, but here we get one that not only has both, but originated from a magical ritual designed to try to summon an major demon! To me it was just the "added flavor" i liked. Makes the game a "not just another zombie game." IMHO.

I just saw Kevin's post both on this forum and the Murmur about possibly putting the missing Brulyx info in an upcoming Rifter or a DR Sourcebook. Does this mean that my review and the opinion of others here was a good thing? Can I be somewhat proud of that? Ahh hell, I'll go ahead and be happy anyway. My job sucks and this game is keeping my smile on!

Sureshot wrote:Don't even get me started on the Mega Damge Bears and Beavers in Rifts Canada. If your going to include something like that at least give it a good background story. Not the usual "Ley Line Energy changed it".

A wizard did it...

Phalanx wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:This is one of those times that I encourage people to write. If you think you can do it better, then by all means, go ahead. many people love to complain but don't want to offer a solution. Thats what Taylor and I did with Triax 2. There were a lot of unanswered questions but instead of complaining on the internet where we had no influence on the outcome, we decided to write a book to answer them. I encourage many people to do be proactive and do the same.

Approach the situation with a thick skin because in any company, your work will be changed and edited.

Believe you me, I'm working my **** off on Rifts: Sol System when I can. Even knowing that in my head, though, I have to admit that the turn of events with Dead Reign does give me some pause.

I really like your sol system info, and would love to see it in print. Please look for PM.

Phalanx wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:This is one of those times that I encourage people to write. If you think you can do it better, then by all means, go ahead. many people love to complain but don't want to offer a solution. Thats what Taylor and I did with Triax 2. There were a lot of unanswered questions but instead of complaining on the internet where we had no influence on the outcome, we decided to write a book to answer them. I encourage many people to do be proactive and do the same.

Approach the situation with a thick skin because in any company, your work will be changed and edited.

Believe you me, I'm working my **** off on Rifts: Sol System when I can. Even knowing that in my head, though, I have to admit that the turn of events with Dead Reign does give me some pause.

it would make for some good drama at least.

Seriously though, I don't think I want to see you go through the same thing.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

Phalanx wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:This is one of those times that I encourage people to write. If you think you can do it better, then by all means, go ahead. many people love to complain but don't want to offer a solution. Thats what Taylor and I did with Triax 2. There were a lot of unanswered questions but instead of complaining on the internet where we had no influence on the outcome, we decided to write a book to answer them. I encourage many people to do be proactive and do the same.

Approach the situation with a thick skin because in any company, your work will be changed and edited.

Believe you me, I'm working my **** off on Rifts: Sol System when I can. Even knowing that in my head, though, I have to admit that the turn of events with Dead Reign does give me some pause.

it would make for some good drama at least.

Seriously though, I don't think I want to see you go through the same thing.

I seriously doubt he will. People react to situations differently.

as has been pretty evident on these boards, the drama doesn't always come from the writer. Or have I been dreaming all of this?

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:as has been pretty evident on these boards, the drama doesn't always come from the writer. Or have I been dreaming all of this?

No, I think that is a pretty accurate assessment.

Phalanx wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:This is one of those times that I encourage people to write. If you think you can do it better, then by all means, go ahead. many people love to complain but don't want to offer a solution. Thats what Taylor and I did with Triax 2. There were a lot of unanswered questions but instead of complaining on the internet where we had no influence on the outcome, we decided to write a book to answer them. I encourage many people to do be proactive and do the same.

Approach the situation with a thick skin because in any company, your work will be changed and edited.

Believe you me, I'm working my **** off on Rifts: Sol System when I can. Even knowing that in my head, though, I have to admit that the turn of events with Dead Reign does give me some pause.

Just remember, you're selling it. The only thing it should do is give you a deeper appreciation of the business. When you sign your contracts, that thing you just spent all that time writing is no longer "your baby". This isn't a group of friends, they are not your buddies and there not "technically" here to help you succeed. They are friendly, they are adult about it, and very professional. If what you write isn't what they want, from skill to "flavor" it will be changed, and this can be what will set someone over the edge. If you think you have this "super awesome" idea and you KNOW it's good, and it gets changed it can be quite a blow to the ego and worst of all, you have just given up your idea that you may not be able to get back. On the other hand, you may have very well created a new hit and if your vision is in line with what is Kevins, you'll have something out that's popular with your name on it and it'll probably see more print than had you tried to publish it alone.

This is why people are encouraged to test the waters with Rifters. Galactis and roadwarrior both got great praise from their rifter submissions and allowed them to test the waters and see if they could touch into kevins vision of writing and the world. It wasn't a definate, but more of a safeguard.

Just remember, it's a business.

OK... Damn! I liked the review & initial discussion,but it sure went down hill fast.I'll admit upfront that I haven't read the Rifters article nor do I own DR..yet. I'll buy it & most likely love it.I'm a Zombie junkie after all.I will try to buy RIFTER # 40 for the original Thinker Zombie though.Since I'm a BIG Deadworld fan I like abit of supernatural sprinkled in my Zombie stew.The idea of intellegent chopper riding Zombie/Demon controlling Zombies are uber-cool.Demon lords vs Alien intellegences=Demon Lords win.That said not having Psionics n' magic in DR won't ruin the Zombie bashin fun for me =) I'll just wait for the upcoming Chaosim powered OFFICIAL Deadworld RPG to get the magic element I'm missing from DR. I'll play both .. alot =) All Hail King Zombie!

King Zombie, huh? I'm wondering how soon it will be before someone plays a poor schmuck who had a limb severed, only to have a power tool or weapon in place instead? Place your bets folks! Ash Vs. Cherry Darling!

Oh come on! Someone had to say it, better that it come from a friend!

At the suggestion of Steve President George W. Bush, I am looking into posting my review on RPG.Net, as well as contacting Kenzer and Company about possibly reviewing this for Knights of the Dinner Table. Do you think I'll hear back from them?

Sureshot wrote:

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:it's the same problem with rifts indians, and cowboys. They are tacked on because of their historic significance to the area/worldbook, it just feels wrong. Sometimes cliches can be used well, mostly in a humourous way, but the MDC kangaroos were not and fell flat in my eyes, so much so that I nearly groan when thinking about them.

Don't even get me started on the Mega Damge Bears and Beavers in Rifts Canada. If your going to include something like that at least give it a good background story. Not the usual "Ley Line Energy changed it".

The Mega-Damage Beaver (Wishpoosh - or however it is spelled) is a creature from Native American Myth.

~ Josh

I have a theory about the Mega-Damage bears and Wishpoosh. And it stems from something happening today.

There are so many Canadian celebrities that are active here in the US, and if South Park is any indication, have somehow mastered camouflaging their flapping heads. William Shatner, Jim Carrey, Pamela Anderson, Shania Twain, I think they somehow channel P.P.E. from their fans back to their homeland, and it infuses such energies with totem animals. Shatner's ego and Carrey's box office are strong like the bear, so there it is.

Don't make me go into Pam and Wishpoosh. What? She has Hep C! I think the Kaluga Hags might have tapped that vein!

Seriously though, I'm more than impressed with the responses my review has generated. I'm glad that some people like the game for what it is, and there's hope for those that wished for what Rifter #40 said it would be. I was also going to order a Grab Bag this week, but I'm gonna have to wait until the new DR shirts are back from the printer. That's right folks, not since Madhaven have I loved a game so much that I want to advertise it with a fashionable black t-shirt!

I hope that you do DTMK. Best of luck!

Thanks! The new shirts look great, and I've worn my Madhaven shirts to different conventions and even internet videos. But this one looks like people will be stopping me at cons from Megacon to Screamfest asking about it. Yep, DR deserves credit where it's due.

And the new Rifter that might have the omitted stats on Brulyx and the Benford group comes out in January. Now I have a reason to look forward to the beginning of the new year.

DtMK wrote:Thanks! The new shirts look great, and I've worn my Madhaven shirts to different conventions and even internet videos. But this one looks like people will be stopping me at cons from Megacon to Screamfest asking about it. Yep, DR deserves credit where it's due.

And the new Rifter that might have the omitted stats on Brulyx and the Benford group comes out in January. Now I have a reason to look forward to the beginning of the new year.

That is VERY good news! I just got the book a few hours ago. Would have had it Wednesday when i got my weekly comic fix, but i couldn't wait for UPS to make their delivery.

Good! You know, ZombieFan and I have been writing reviews on the book, and others have been chiming in. Once you look through it, maybe YOU should write a review too. Just watch the four letter words, they seem to be frowned upon around here. I know from experience.

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:The Mega-Damage Beaver (Wishpoosh - or however it is spelled) is a creature from Native American Myth.

~ Josh

I stand corrected on that. Still too many things are MDC because of exposure to Ley Line Energy. Imo they need to come up with a new reason.

This makes me feel thankful for having a big mouth and talent for writing my feelings and thoughts!

#
The Rifter® #45 – January 2009

The January issue of The Rifter® will ship on its usual schedule, without delay. Please note the modest price increase: $11.95 up from $10.95 retail. Subscribers are not affected by this increase until their subscription ends.

This issue is being put together even as you read this, so the complete contents has not yet been decided, but will include:

# Palladium Fantasy RPG® a different look at archery, bows and arrows.
# Dead Reign™ Alternative Setting. Key selections from the Josh Hilden and Joshua Sanford manuscript that follows their concept of global conquest by Brulyx, an Alien Intelligence who commands the dead. Includes Brulyx, Gregius the Immortal, a handful of demons and an alternative time-line.
# Source material for Rifts®.
# Source material for other Palladium RPGs yet to be announced.
# The latest chapter of Hammer of the Forge™, fiction.
# News, conventions, coming attractions and more.
# Cover by zombie artist, E.M. Gist (depicting a zombie, of course!).
# $11.95 retail – 96 pages – Cat. No. 145.
# Ships around January 12, 2009.

There's no emoticon that can properly show the size of the smile on my face!!

I'm happy for you... because it cheeses me off that valuable Rifter pages are now being wasted on what is essentially material from the cutting room floor.

Braden Campbell wrote:I'm happy for you... because it cheeses me off that valuable Rifter pages are now being wasted on what is essentially material from the cutting room floor.

Well yeah, there's that. But the Rifter is the fastest way to get something that people were looking forward to DRRPG with Brulyx out to us. The next alternative would be waiting for the DR Sourcebook to come out. At least it's something, and shows that the people at Palladium do listen to the fans.

In this case, they've been given little choice.

I find it interesting though that there was no such hue and cry when Chaos Earth, which was previewed in multiple Rifter issues, was finally released...only to have almost nothing in common with the previewed material.

Anyone care to comment?

If I'm not mistaken, Chaos Earth was originally going to be an alternate world setting, until they got the idea to make it part of the Rifts timeline. Not bad, but I don't think Chaos Earth generated the same amount of buzz as DR. Or at least, I wasn't inspired enough to write a review on it.

Braden Campbell wrote:In this case, they've been given little choice.

I find it interesting though that there was no such hue and cry when Chaos Earth, which was previewed in multiple Rifter issues, was finally released...only to have almost nothing in common with the previewed material.

Anyone care to comment?

At the time, people had enough reason to hate Kevin, they didn't need more. Now, with the release of so many great things...well, hating Kevin is getting harder and harder to do.

Braden Campbell wrote:In this case, they've been given little choice.

I find it interesting though that there was no such hue and cry when Chaos Earth, which was previewed in multiple Rifter issues, was finally released...only to have almost nothing in common with the previewed material.

Anyone care to comment?

Oop, thought of another one: No one bought Chaos Earth, that's why.

Braden Campbell wrote:In this case, they've been given little choice.

I find it interesting though that there was no such hue and cry when Chaos Earth, which was previewed in multiple Rifter issues, was finally released...only to have almost nothing in common with the previewed material.

Anyone care to comment?

Because both storylines were interesting. I always thought it was an interesting idea about timing which resulted in a lesser version of Rifts. Then Chaos Earth came out and i bought it ( @ Dark Brandon ) and saw that they decided to make it the origins of Rifts in general. I personally liked both storylines. I figure that since there wasn't really that much of a difference between the two, no one would mind, unlike Dead Reign where one version was shown only to have something radically IMO different printed in the actual book.

On the plus side, I'm looking through and using a few choice creatures from Creatures of Chaos in my current Dead Reign Beta game. In fact, I have a Ravenous named Lucifyx as one of the generals of the demon forces of Brulyx preparing to put down any greater resistance by extraordinary forces. So yes, it has its place. And I can use what I want from it to really spice things up!

killgore wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Braden Campbell wrote:In this case, they've been given little choice.

I find it interesting though that there was no such hue and cry when Chaos Earth, which was previewed in multiple Rifter issues, was finally released...only to have almost nothing in common with the previewed material.

Anyone care to comment?

Oop, thought of another one: No one bought Chaos Earth, that's why.

I did, wish I didn't!
I'd already played through the apocalypse, I didn't like the retcon.

I don't get what was wrong with Chaos Earth.

What did everyone expect about the origin of Rifts?

The story is great and the sourcebooks even add more flavor to it.

Yeah, Chaos Earth is fantastic. It's even grittier than Rifts (Rifts always had that touch of "comic flavor" with Juicers and Crazies and whatnot), plus it has awesome rules for animals fighting the supernatural and helping humans detect and evade threats. The Roscoe is probably one of the best OCCs in the Megaverse, and does a lot to help give the game a feeling of post apocalyptic survival/rescue, rather than the feeling of trying to carve out a reputation and a living that Rifts has.

Just so I don't completely stray off the original topic (c'mon people, this is a great review, and shouldn't be buried under Chaos Earth hate)...I bring this question up again, since I'm unclear on what was "promised/expected" of the game: what were most people expecting out of the large combat rules? I wasn't really reading every detail of the press releases regarding this game, so I wasn't even looking for those rules, but were they supposed to be something like large groups fighting other large groups, or was it going to be a few characters vs a horde of zombies? As it is, the Zombies in this game are extremely tough to kill (not my personal preference, but it is what it is, and it will hopefully make the characters think twice before attempting zombie exterminations), so if you're facing a large group, you're probably at a huge disadvantage and the rules would only really help the GM eliminate the PCs faster (with less rolls ).

Most Palladium games have never really had "mooks" or one-shot kill fodder that you can find in other games (like All Flesh Must be Eaten, or Mutants and Masterminds), so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised when the classic quick kill threat (the zombie) turned out to be much tougher (requiring two or three extremely tough shots to take out). Sometimes I run games much looser and have my own set of "ninja horde" rules, but that is only for games where the players don't want to think too much and just want to have some arcade style fun with the dice rolls. The zombies as written require better tactics and strategies to survive or escape, so things like large combat rules would probably be really tough to create for it, and would only really be usable in extremely rare situations. Perhaps there could be some type of brainstorm in the Rifter forums to create a set of large combat rules for the game.

The dumbing down of the thinker is something I agree with you on, though. I'm not mad at the decision, but I was thinking of something diabolical and cunning that the players could actually have some type of creepy dialogue with, making the hordes even creepier when the conversation basically keeps coming back to the players being torn to shreds to feed the "family". I mean even in the original Night of the Living Dead there were "ghouls" that used rocks to bash in windows, so personally I'd like to see a little smarter "thinker" that can perhaps learn to do things like reload a gun (scary), or learn from previous encounters with the PCs and not fall for the same traps. Nothing like a military tactical genius or anything like that, but smart enough to pick up on overused traps (fool me thrice...shame on me).

Jaguar Wong wrote:
Just so I don't completely stray off the original topic (c'mon people, this is a great review, and shouldn't be buried under Chaos Earth hate)...I bring this question up again, since I'm unclear on what was "promised/expected" of the game: what were most people expecting out of the large combat rules?

Me, I was kinda hoping for just a way to make MANY vs a Few a little easier and or faster.
Lets just say you have a Frag that goes off in a pit, that has 30 Zeds all packed in.

Instead of rolling damage for all 30 zeds, and avoiding making 1 roll for all 30 zeds. You can have rules that say. Roll dice.
1-5=kill 10%, maim 60%, the 30% rest are all safe.
6-10= Kill 30%, Maim 60%, 10% are all safe.

Or, take the cover of the book. Its wild having to roll "to hit" for each of those zeds as they are attacking the girl. How about some rules that say when you get swarmed.."use these rules"

Thats what I was kinda hoping for.. That make sense?

It does to me. I think that's what many of us were hoping for, a viable way to combat multiple targets if you are one or a few. The closest thing that's been touched upon in Palladium are martial arts that handle multiple attackers, machine gun rules for spraying into a crowd, or the blast radius of grenades. So under these rules, the best to do is the martial artists, weapons experts or people that can find or make explosives.

The game is good, it just needs something a little more that's all.

Braden Campbell wrote:I'm happy for you... because it cheeses me off that valuable Rifter pages are now being wasted on what is essentially material from the cutting room floor.

boy, I bet the Josh's are glad to hear you think so highly of their work. Not even good enough for a fansub magazine. Well at least you didn't directly call it ****.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

Braden Campbell wrote:I'm happy for you... because it cheeses me off that valuable Rifter pages are now being wasted on what is essentially material from the cutting room floor.

boy, I bet the Josh's are glad to hear you think so highly of their work. Not even good enough for a fansub magazine. Well at least you didn't directly call it ****.

Actually, Braden has a very very good point. It's not that it's "good/bad" enough for a fansub mag...it's the fact that it was material that should have been included in some way and wasn't, now, in order to get the "full" book, you have to dish out another 8 bucks.

Now that I think about it, I think the stuff that was in madhaven that was put into the rifter should have also been on the cutting room floor since it was official material. It should be availible to everyone who bought madhaven, not just those who are gonna dish out more money

Look guys, you're preaching to the choir here! I happened to notice how nutty it was to have to buy ANOTHER book for what should have been in the final version. But at least it WILL see print, and a lot of us are already buying Rifters anyway, right? I liked the Madhaven info in Rifter, I liked the Hades info in Rifter, and I'm really looking forward to the missing DR info! We have the Rifter #45 that's confirmed, and Kevin already says he has ideas for other books. It'll have to be a case by case wait and see for the others, but I'm usually a glass is half full kind of guy. I'd LIKE to give the benefit of the doubt. And when I'm disappointed...well, you're reading page 3 of what happens when I'm not happy.

I look forward to Rifter #45, and it's not $8 anymore, it'll be $12.

DtMK wrote:Look guys, you're preaching to the choir here! I

I was simply stating that cyber-yukongil took bradens comment the wrong way.

dark brandon wrote:

DtMK wrote:Look guys, you're preaching to the choir here! I

I was simply stating that cyber-yukongil took bradens comment the wrong way.

well if he meant it another way then I do apologize, but the phrasing he used; "valuable Rifter pages, wasted on what is essentially material from the cutting room floor."


really it's the "wasted" that was the kicker.

cyber-yukongil v2.5 wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

DtMK wrote:Look guys, you're preaching to the choir here! I

I was simply stating that cyber-yukongil took bradens comment the wrong way.

well if he meant it another way then I do apologize, but the phrasing he used; "valuable Rifter pages, wasted on what is essentially material from the cutting room floor."


really it's the "wasted" that was the kicker.

Well, I concider it "waisted" as well. The rifter is for fans, not for things "we didn't want to put in the main book for X reasons". We have a place already for things like that, it's called the "cutting room floor". Another way to look at it, is that with the cutting room floor, everyone who bought the book has access to it, where as a rifter is only for those who buy it.

In the end, I don't see it as a big deal, but he did make a good point. The rifer is a fanzine, and should be kept as that. And those who buy books, should get the full books, even if it means having to put some of it up for free. In the end, I don't know if anything "official" should be in a rifter.

Ninjabunny wrote:The Rifter wouldn't have to be used that way if it had just been put out in the book to begin with. Rifter 40 generated alot of pre-orders for Dead Reign, The fans were right to make a big stink about it. I am at least glad that they are putting it and I am going to get Rifter 45 for that stuff alone. I want to know more about the Demon Brulyxs.

I don't have a problem with it being in the Rifter. Some of my favorite stuff from the Madhaven book was put in Rifter 36. I do, however, like the book more than I liked the stuff from Rifter 40, but that is personal preference in how I like my zombies. Who knows, I could love Rifter 45 more than both of them.