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The other thing is three little words.

The Boom Gun.

The NGR has thousands of Glitter Boys. The Boom Gun has a greater range than any weapon other than missiles. And a unit of things with Boom Guns makes things disappear.

Balabanto wrote:The other thing is three little words.

The Boom Gun.

The NGR has thousands of Glitter Boys. The Boom Gun has a greater range than any weapon other than missiles. And a unit of things with Boom Guns makes things disappear.

You can't eat a Boom Gun. You also can't Boom Gun a Naval blocade that has weapons of superior range and damage.

1) - Their "tech-level" means nothing in a fight. Look at the Xiticix - their melee weapons are basically concrete, and they're some of the best around.

2) - As well, Triax has nothing in comparison with CS robots. The Abolisher alone is better than most every Triax robot in any book. Then we've got things like the Firestorm Mobile fortress. Or better yet, the SAMAS that the CS has. The Striker, the Super-SAM, the Smiling Jack - they are all cheap, well-armed models capable of duking it out with most (if not all) NGR PA.
-Dogofwar-

The Fact that you do not seem to realize is the Xitixi are not feared for there weaponry ...
Its the sheer volume of thier numbers that is the bringer of the "apocolypes"

Triax and the NGR are years ahead of the CS in terms of Robots weapons and PA .. It was the secondary old data that the NGR "GAVE" to the CS that enabled the CS to create new armors ... and that was OLD DATA ... thats not thinking of what the NGR/Triax has for the NEW stuffs ..

The Fact that you seem to think the Abolisher is better then a Supersonic Robot jet fighter is absurd .. but to each thier own ..

Take the BEST Robot the CS has .. pit it against the BEST robot the NGR/Triax has .. and lets GEUSS who would come out on top ..

Dog_O_War wrote:

Balabanto wrote:The other thing is three little words.

The Boom Gun.

The NGR has thousands of Glitter Boys. The Boom Gun has a greater range than any weapon other than missiles. And a unit of things with Boom Guns makes things disappear.

You can't eat a Boom Gun. You also can't Boom Gun a Naval blocade that has weapons of superior range and damage.

Does not matter that the NGR cant eat the boom gun .. Only matters that the CS WOULD BE ...

The CS navy vrs the NGR Navy ....

This is CLEARLY in favor of the NGR .. when the CS had EVERY NAVY SHIP in sourcebook 4 They were still dwarfed by the NGR's navy .. only navy on the planet that is larger is the Atlantean Navy ..

How is the CS navy going to blockade anything when its at the bottom of the ocean ?

Lenwen wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Balabanto wrote:The other thing is three little words.

The Boom Gun.

The NGR has thousands of Glitter Boys. The Boom Gun has a greater range than any weapon other than missiles. And a unit of things with Boom Guns makes things disappear.

You can't eat a Boom Gun. You also can't Boom Gun a Naval blocade that has weapons of superior range and damage.

Does not matter that the NGR cant eat the boom gun .. Only matters that the CS WOULD BE ...

The CS navy vrs the NGR Navy ....

This is CLEARLY in favor of the NGR .. when the CS had EVERY NAVY SHIP in sourcebook 4 They were still dwarfed by the NGR's navy .. only navy on the planet that is larger is the Atlantean Navy ..

How is the CS navy going to blockade anything when its at the bottom of the ocean ?

For one, the CS can bring to bare their airforce along with their navy.

For two, a Navy also consists of air support. The US Military (for example) has carriers, which in-turn carry jets. These jets are considered apart of the Navy. So when you say that the NGR has the bigger Navy, what you mean is that they have more boats. More boats does not equal a superior navy, as one plane can destroy one boat (and is often the case in a naval conflict).

The CS has more planes per carrier than the NGR does, and the NGR only has a slightly larger naval-fleet. The thing about the CS is that they can reinforce their Navy easily with planes and powered armour, thanks to nearly all CS PA's having flight capabilities. So now you've got a single CS carrier with more planes and more troops in flying PA able to engage an enemy fleet thousands of miles out.

When you're 1,000 miles away from the enemy and are being engaged by their naval forces - how do you put them at the bottom of the ocean?
The answer is; you don't. You are forced to fight battles on their terms. Their terms are that you must engage their superior airforces and naval airforces before you can engage their Navy or their Army. In this time-period, you slowly starve to death, and are still forced to fight a land battle against an enemy. You cannot hold out for ever because you are fighting on two fronts with (now) extremely limited supplies and resources. Meanwhile both of the enemies you are fighting have infinite supplies and resources, of which to combat you with. The more time you spend assembling forces, the weaker you become.

As strategies go, the CS enjoys the luxury of time; they starve out Germany and force them to be rash, as they (the Germans) cannot beat the CS's Air+Navy forces with their own.

And as I mentioned before, the CS has easy access to a million Mercs., where as Germany does not. That right there is a skirmish force too deadly to ingnore, and too costly to battle.
The battle is basically lost before Germany can make landfall on North America.

Dog_O_War wrote:
1) - For one, the CS can bring to bare their airforce along with their navy.

2) - For two, a Navy also consists of air support. The US Military (for example) has carriers, which in-turn carry jets. These jets are considered apart of the Navy. So when you say that the NGR has the bigger Navy, what you mean is that they have more boats. More boats does not equal a superior navy, as one plane can destroy one boat (and is often the case in a naval conflict).

3) - The CS has more planes per carrier than the NGR does, and the NGR only has a slightly larger naval-fleet. The thing about the CS is that they can reinforce their Navy easily with planes and powered armour, thanks to nearly all CS PA's having flight capabilities. So now you've got a single CS carrier with more planes and more troops in flying PA able to engage an enemy fleet thousands of miles out.

4) - When you're 1,000 miles away from the enemy and are being engaged by their naval forces - how do you put them at the bottom of the ocean?

5) - The answer is; you don't. You are forced to fight battles on their terms. Their terms are that you must engage their superior airforces and naval airforces before you can engage their Navy or their Army. In this time-period, you slowly starve to death, and are still forced to fight a land battle against an enemy. You cannot hold out for ever because you are fighting on two fronts with (now) extremely limited supplies and resources. Meanwhile both of the enemies you are fighting have infinite supplies and resources, of which to combat you with. The more time you spend assembling forces, the weaker you become.

6) - As strategies go, the CS enjoys the luxury of time; they starve out Germany and force them to be rash, as they (the Germans) cannot beat the CS's Air+Navy forces with their own.

7) - And as I mentioned before, the CS has easy access to a million Mercs., where as Germany does not. That right there is a skirmish force too deadly to ingnore, and too costly to battle.
The battle is basically lost before Germany can make landfall on North America.

1) - The NGR has SUBMERSIBLE AIRCRAFT CARIERS ..... get real .. the CS has nuthing to deture such power ...
2) - The NGR has submersible Aircraft cariers nearly on par with Nemo an the New Navy .. you know the one that single handedly destroyed a Splugorthian slaver mothership ...
It would take Everythin in the CS Navy arsenal to bring down a single Mothership .. yet the NGR has SEVERAL ships capabile of such a feat ...
3) - Everything the CS could bring to bere in a war against the NGR , The NGR has the capability to respond with pure devistation against the CS .. the mear fact that you said slightly larger Navy is showing that your more an more a CS fanboy then an actual person in a debat ...
4) - The single item the CS has that has a range of 1,000 miles is Missles .. Not even Samas could go that far with out overheating .. and the Jet aircraft the CS have would be shot down first sign of trouble from them by the NGR .. with out hesitation .
5) - The NGR is currently thee ONLY navy outside of atlantis that is roaming the Atlantic ocean .. the CS would not even be able to make it anywhere near the places they would need to be to launch thier Samas against the NGR simply cuase chances are they would be intercepted by the Atlantean navy an sunk prior to any engaugement of the NGR Navy .
6) - In an all out war , Do you HONESTLY think in a 1 on 1 situation that the NGR would simply "allow" the protracted war to linger longer then a few months ? No way in Hades .. They would put together a massive offensive the likes the CS would only DREAM about .. using Long range Bombers , a single naval fleet larger then the entire CS naval armada .. ( which the NGR has SEVERAL fleets ) and then landing troops . To simply assault the CS on every front . No way the CS would win .
7) - 1 million merc's ... Vrs 5 million refugee force . Sure the Mercs have the advantage so far as Tactics .. but Place those 5 million refugee's in a PA or a GB and call it a day that 1 million man merc army is gone .

You still seem to be not realizing the potential of the NGR full military . The Cs would struggle to put up a 3 million man military at all ..
That would be 3 different Armies for the NGR .. They have the troop capacity to put to bere on the CS a real hurt and an Embarrasing Loss and would make it look like childs play .
More Numbers , higher Tech , Better Weapons , Better Jets , Better Bombers , Larger Navy (by several factors larger ) Better Robots , Better P.A.

Your right .. the fight would be over before the NGR made landfall on the N.A. Continent cause the CS would be wiped out from just the NGR Navy alone ... The NGR wouldent even NEED to bring out the groundpounders against the CS .. ( which the NGR has something like a 10-1 ratio of overall soilders ..)

Lenwen wrote:1) - The NGR has SUBMERSIBLE AIRCRAFT CARIERS ..... get real .. the CS has nuthing to deture such power ...
2) - The NGR has submersible Aircraft cariers nearly on par with Nemo an the New Navy .. you know the one that single handedly destroyed a Splugorthian slaver mothership ...
It would take Everythin in the CS Navy arsenal to bring down a single Mothership .. yet the NGR has SEVERAL ships capabile of such a feat ...

And the CS destroyed Tolkeen - one ficticious win versus another. Your point?

Lenwen wrote:3) - Everything the CS could bring to bere in a war against the NGR , The NGR has the capability to respond with pure devistation against the CS .. the mear fact that you said slightly larger Navy is showing that your more an more a CS fanboy then an actual person in a debat ...

They can't get to North America in any significant number. That's not what I call "pure devistation". The NGR must fight air and sea battles; the CS has the better task-force in this regard.
Also, name-calling is against the board posting rules and will be reported.

Lenwen wrote:4) - The single item the CS has that has a range of 1,000 miles is Missles .. Not even Samas could go that far with out overheating .. and the Jet aircraft the CS have would be shot down first sign of trouble from them by the NGR .. with out hesitation .

So now these underwater carriers are also engaging the airforce as well? Hardly.
And yes, the CS has missiles that engage at that range - an infinite supply, remember.
Also, book and page number stating that the SAMAS will overheat after travelling 1000 miles.

Lenwen wrote:5) - The NGR is currently thee ONLY navy outside of atlantis that is roaming the Atlantic ocean .. the CS would not even be able to make it anywhere near the places they would need to be to launch thier Samas against the NGR simply cuase chances are they would be intercepted by the Atlantean navy an sunk prior to any engaugement of the NGR Navy .

You clearly have missed what I had said earlier, so I'll explain it.

A Blocade is where an armed force does not allow to passage from or to a destination. This blocade need not be in the middle of the Atlantic, but instead can be a few miles off the coast of NA. Or better yet, 100 miles out so as to increase the range in which their Navy engages at.
As well, those SAMAS do not need to travel 1000 miles, as a Death's Head Transport is more than capable of carrying hundreds of them into any conflict.

This Blocade is an offensive tactic, as they are not allowing food or messages to go out to the NGR as much as they are not allowing the NGR to come to North America.

Lenwen wrote:6) - In an all out war , Do you HONESTLY think in a 1 on 1 situation that the NGR would simply "allow" the protracted war to linger longer then a few months ? No way in Hades .. They would put together a massive offensive the likes the CS would only DREAM about .. using Long range Bombers , a single naval fleet larger then the entire CS naval armada .. ( which the NGR has SEVERAL fleets ) and then landing troops . To simply assault the CS on every front . No way the CS would win .

Yes; it's called, "the NGR does not have a choice". It takes months, if not a year to devise a military strategy for a current situation. As well, an all-out attack/ seige cannot work for the NGR as they have to come in through the ST Laurence, a choke-point the CS is more than capable of defending with three armies; air, land, and sea. If they land on the east coast of North America, then the NGR has to combat the Spugorth, the Shemarrians (Archie), and pirates. Then they have to cross hundreds of miles of hostile terrain before they finally run across the magic zone. I don't think those chaps are going to allow them to just waltz right through.

Lenwen wrote:7) - 1 million merc's ... Vrs 5 million refugee force . Sure the Mercs have the advantage so far as Tactics .. but Place those 5 million refugee's in a PA or a GB and call it a day that 1 million man merc army is gone .

A "refugee force". An ifbut clause. Your point is invalid. Put those 1 million mercs inside Abolishers and call it a day. It's the same deal as putting those refugees in anything other than basic body armour with basic weapons. It's just not going to happen.

Lenwen wrote:You still seem to be not realizing the potential of the NGR full military . The Cs would struggle to put up a 3 million man military at all ..

You seem to forget that the CS has robots in equal numbers, and have learned from their previous folly with skelebots and human spell-casters.

Lenwen wrote:That would be 3 different Armies for the NGR .. They have the troop capacity to put to bere on the CS a real hurt and an Embarrasing Loss and would make it look like childs play .
More Numbers , higher Tech , Better Weapons , Better Jets , Better Bombers , Larger Navy (by several factors larger ) Better Robots , Better P.A.

Their weapons are neither better nor more numerous. The NGR has to leave 2/3 of its fighting-force back home. This is the home-guard and the Gargoyle front. Also, their PA is not better than the Coalitions'. The books can say that the German stuff is better engineered and all that crap, but the fact of the matter is that CS PA has better statistics when it comes to MDC, armament, cost, and numbers. Next; there is no way the NGR is bringing over any giant robots with any significant numbers.
Finally, their "better jets" do not rival the sheer amount of flying force the CS can offer.

As a real-world comparison; an F23-Raptor is the best jet around, but it's still not taking on MiG-35's in a 3:1 or even a 2:1 ratio (given equal pilots and all).

Lenwen wrote:You still seem to be not realizing the potential of the NGR full military.

Agreed. Dog you may want to read WB7 and pay particular attention the section on the NGR Navy. Each one of those submersible carries (on pg 207 btw) carries 160 Dragonwings - the super-sonic flight capable robots. This doesn't count all the other troops each carries (5,000 troops each)

And each of the NGR's escort battleships (on pg 205) carries 40 Dragonwings.

So yeah it's more than likely that the NGR will punch through whatever defensive line the CS navy can muster.

The NGR has the number's and the tech that the CS can't match.


And why would you think that the NGR would not have access to mercs in Europe? There's a whole other kingdom in Poland with another 5 million people. And how many of those North American mercs would switch sides if offered Triax weapons?

It's not even that. It's the German Military Tradition vs. the Coalition Military Tradition. I would take a properly run German War Machine over the United States of Fascism any day.

The NGR never lost the knowledge of Rommel and Von Klausewitz. They have all that stuff to apply to their tactics. They would sweep over the Coalition with speed and hit their key locations so hard that Prosek would be in a secret bunker before Chi-Town knew what hit it. When the Germans attack something, they attack quickly, carefully, and efficiently. All the key strategic points are already isolated and targeted.

The Coalition has the strategic sense of a chair. They've proven that over and over again.

Balabanto wrote:
The Coalition has the strategic sense of a chair. They've proven that over and over again.

Not all the CS generals. Not enough I agree, but there's a few bright spots.

I think it was in Gen. Kashbrook's description that she has studied the pre-rifts military great's for example.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Lenwen wrote:You still seem to be not realizing the potential of the NGR full military.

Agreed. Dog you may want to read WB7 and pay particular attention the section on the NGR Navy. Each one of those submersible carries (on pg 207 btw) carries 160 Dragonwings - the super-sonic flight capable robots. This doesn't count all the other troops each carries (5,000 troops each)
And each of the NGR's escort battleships (on pg 205) carries 40 Dragonwings.
So yeah it's more than likely that the NGR will punch through whatever defensive line the CS navy can muster.
The NGR has the number's and the tech that the CS can't match.
And why would you think that the NGR would not have access to mercs in Europe? There's a whole other kingdom in Poland with another 5 million people. And how many of those North American mercs would switch sides if offered Triax weapons?

not to mention the numbers discrepancy. the NGR navy has 8 of those submersible carriers, and about two dozen cruisers.

the CS navy had 4 carriers (3 being 'refit' 20th century models), and a bit over a dozen cruisers, frigates, and ASW carriers.

the NGR submersible carriers have main guns capable of gutting a CS 'refit' Nimitz in a couple of shots, secondary guns capable of doing similar damage when volleyed together, missile arrays able to spam enough LRM's that the CS ship's point defense is overhwelmed.

and then we get to the Dragonwing bots, the supersonic fighter bombers,VTOL's, powered armor, and so on.

the cruisers have weaker compliments (only a few companies of troops, instead of a whole regiment), but comparable armaments. and they too carry dragonwings, VTOl's, and flying PA.

the NGR ships have more MDC than CS ships, even the IHA built ships.

and this isn't even counting the swarms of submarine attack craft the NGR navy employs. the transforming subfighter for example, or the submarine torpedo boat. the first carried in large quantities on the carriers, the second used to escort said carriers. and then there are the aquatic PA, aquatic borgs, combat minisubs.....

Dog_O_War wrote:You clearly have missed what I had said earlier, so I'll explain it.

A Blocade is where an armed force does not allow to passage from or to a destination. This blocade need not be in the middle of the Atlantic, but instead can be a few miles off the coast of NA. Or better yet, 100 miles out so as to increase the range in which their Navy engages at.
As well, those SAMAS do not need to travel 1000 miles, as a Death's Head Transport is more than capable of carrying hundreds of them into any conflict.

This Blocade is an offensive tactic, as they are not allowing food or messages to go out to the NGR as much as they are not allowing the NGR to come to North America.

since your argueing the CS side...this means your suggesting the CS blockade itself?

the CS navy sitting off the shores of north america isn't a blockade. thats called a defense line.

the Cs navy sitting off Germany would be a blockade.

if the CS navy could find the NGR navy's docks and blockade them, that might have an effect. but the CS navy trying ot stop the NGR navy from dropping a few hundred thousand troops onto american soil? unlikely. the NGR navy was designed to open up a new front in a war after all. they have the numbers, the power, and the technology to punch through the CS navy.

the CS navy would either be broken up into smaller groups and sunk peicemeal, or taken on in one hecka huge naval battle, where it would be sunk wholesale.


and this is ignoring the fact the CS navy lost 75% of it's forces during the SoT, and thus can't even boast to have 4 carriers and a dozen support ships anymore. while the NGR navy has currently avoided major combat in prep for their new offensive.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

Lenwen wrote:You still seem to be not realizing the potential of the NGR full military.

Agreed. Dog you may want to read WB7 and pay particular attention the section on the NGR Navy. Each one of those submersible carries (on pg 207 btw) carries 160 Dragonwings - the super-sonic flight capable robots. This doesn't count all the other troops each carries (5,000 troops each)

And each of the NGR's escort battleships (on pg 205) carries 40 Dragonwings.

So yeah it's more than likely that the NGR will punch through whatever defensive line the CS navy can muster.

The NGR has the number's and the tech that the CS can't match.

Again, it's not Navy versus Navy, it's Airforce and Navy versus Airforce and Navy.
And if I recall correctly, a single Death's Head carries more fliers than both a carrier and a Battleship escort does combined.
As well as a large ground force. But then again, as a battle over the ocean does not really require a ground force, I suppose you could just fit more fliers in now, couldn't you?

Dustin Fireblade wrote:And why would you think that the NGR would not have access to mercs in Europe? There's a whole other kingdom in Poland with another 5 million people. And how many of those North American mercs would switch sides if offered Triax weapons?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do not believe Poland has one fifth of its population in a mercenary occupation.

Or even one twentieth.

Balabanto wrote:It's not even that. It's the German Military Tradition vs. the Coalition Military Tradition. I would take a properly run German War Machine over the United States of Fascism any day.

The military of every country is a facist organization.
How the country itself is governed has little to do with the skill and training of their military. Take (for instance) the Indian military. A democratic nation, third largest army in the world, and their training is sub-par compared to the US, Britain, China, even Canada.

Balabanto wrote:The NGR never lost the knowledge of Rommel and Von Klausewitz. They have all that stuff to apply to their tactics. They would sweep over the Coalition with speed and hit their key locations so hard that Prosek would be in a secret bunker before Chi-Town knew what hit it. When the Germans attack something, they attack quickly, carefully, and efficiently. All the key strategic points are already isolated and targeted.

The world never lost knowledge of Rommel or his Blitzkrieg strategy, so the point is moot.

Balabanto wrote:The Coalition has the strategic sense of a chair. They've proven that over and over again.

Correction; the writers of the CS army have this sense - not the actual military. And even then, the writers have put into print that the CS will win battles that they should have lost. Meanwhile the NGR will barely hold out against more even odds.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:You clearly have missed what I had said earlier, so I'll explain it.

A Blocade is where an armed force does not allow to passage from or to a destination. This blocade need not be in the middle of the Atlantic, but instead can be a few miles off the coast of NA. Or better yet, 100 miles out so as to increase the range in which their Navy engages at.
As well, those SAMAS do not need to travel 1000 miles, as a Death's Head Transport is more than capable of carrying hundreds of them into any conflict.

This Blocade is an offensive tactic, as they are not allowing food or messages to go out to the NGR as much as they are not allowing the NGR to come to North America.

since your argueing the CS side...this means your suggesting the CS blockade itself?

the CS navy sitting off the shores of north america isn't a blockade. thats called a defense line.

Wrong. The CS is performing a blocade against third-party shipments of supplies and such to the NGR. As they have cut off their own shipments, they simply need to make sure no other sources are capitolizing on this supply vacuum.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and this is ignoring the fact the CS navy lost 75% of it's forces during the SoT, and thus can't even boast to have 4 carriers and a dozen support ships anymore. while the NGR navy has currently avoided major combat in prep for their new offensive.

You are assuming that the CS and the NGR are locking horns right after the SoT conflict. Not likely.

Again, it's not Navy versus Navy, it's Airforce and Navy versus Airforce and Navy.
And if I recall correctly, a single Death's Head carries more fliers than both a carrier and a Battleship escort does combined.
As well as a large ground force. But then again, as a battle over the ocean does not really require a ground force, I suppose you could just fit more fliers in now, couldn't you?

again, those 8 carriers alone can supply 1280 Dragonwing bot's, each with combat capabilities and performance similar to the CS combat jets. they can also supply several hundred XM-280 fighter bombers, which i have already shown are superior to CS jets. in addition, those 8 carriers alone can supply an entire regiment of flying PA, and several dozen squadrons of VTOL's.

they can supply an entire regiment of aquatic PA and borgs as well, which outnumber the compliments of the CS navy's equivilents..

and the numbers just get larger when you add the cruisers compliments.....

and in terms of airforce, it's only a bit over 4000km from germany to the US. the Xm-280 fighter bombers can cover that distance in 2 hours. so a sizable portion of the NGr's airforce is avaiable to strike the CS navy, which is almost entirely a surface fleet. they can't submerge to avoid airstrikes. the NGR's airforce could then turn back and be back in germany in time for dinner, with minimal chance for an enemy to exploit the temporary hole in their air defense.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Again, it's not Navy versus Navy, it's Airforce and Navy versus Airforce and Navy.
And if I recall correctly, a single Death's Head carries more fliers than both a carrier and a Battleship escort does combined.
As well as a large ground force. But then again, as a battle over the ocean does not really require a ground force, I suppose you could just fit more fliers in now, couldn't you?

again, those 8 carriers alone can supply 1280 Dragonwing bot's, each with combat capabilities and performance similar to the CS combat jets. they can also supply several hundred XM-280 fighter bombers, which i have already shown are superior to CS jets. in addition, those 8 carriers alone can supply an entire regiment of flying PA, and several dozen squadrons of VTOL's.

they can supply an entire regiment of aquatic PA and borgs as well, which outnumber the compliments of the CS navy's equivilents..

and the numbers just get larger when you add the cruisers compliments.....

and in terms of airforce, it's only a bit over 4000km from germany to the US. the Xm-280 fighter bombers can cover that distance in 2 hours. so a sizable portion of the NGr's airforce is avaiable to strike the CS navy, which is almost entirely a surface fleet. they can't submerge to avoid airstrikes. the NGR's airforce could then turn back and be back in germany in time for dinner, with minimal chance for an enemy to exploit the temporary hole in their air defense.

Yes, the CS lacks radar! I completely forgot about that!

Oh yeah, they also don't have any means of fighting off these fliers I guess too.

And it appears that the CS military has to spread out its troops so as to never have a good concentration of military might.....

you know, i don't think i even implied anything like that. i'm just pointing out that the NGR navy can supply overwhelming force, far higher than anything the CS can throw at them.


as for the "there is nothing to say the war gets fought at the end of the SoT", well, if the CS gets time to rebuild it's navy, that means the NGR has also had time to expand it's own. which do you think will grow faster, the navy that had to rely on salvage ships and two captured shipyards, with minimal experiance in ship building, starting at a weakened state.....or the nation that built 8 advanced submersible super-carriers and a large support fleet in the span of a decade?

Are we in SO or what?

I wonder what that thing is on page 213 of Rifts: Underseas. From the size of it, it looks like it would give the NGR Navy the advantage over....just about anything in the water. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

Its ok I guess Saying some one seems to be a CS fanboy is a name calling thing .

Going 100% against the NGR known canon ..
Saying the NGR navy/airforce is smaller then the CS ... yeah right ..
Saying that the CS could bring more troops to bere then the NGR ... yeah Right ..

Even other People are flat out TELLING you your wrong ... an yet you switch topics to try to dispute symantics ..

Mach 4.5 = 3,015 mph .. The NGR's FASTEST plane .... Can EASILY be converted into a bomber styled aircraft with absolutly zero disadvantages ...

Ceiling of that aircraft when loaded with 2 million pounds of explosives = a staggering 100,000 ft .

This aircraft has UNLIMITED Flying range ... Fly's FASTER then ANY MISSLE THE CS HAS and higher then any aircraft yet put in canon for the CS ....

For this .. the CS has absolutly NO deterrent ... None . How is ANY samas going to match the speed or ceiling of this aircraft ?

It wont .

How bout those Rocket Cycles ? Nope they wont either ..

How bout those Helicopters ? Absolutly not ..

How bout those Jet Fighters ? Nope with a max speed of mach 1.5 not even close to the speed needed to intercept as well as a low ceilieng of 60,000 ft just to get to the aircraft .. thats 40,000 ft LOWER then the NGR aircraft ...


And you think the Cs has the ability to shoot that aircraft down ? With what ?

Missles ?
Wrong .. the FASTEST missles the CS has only go mach 3 or 2,010 mph .. this aircraft does mach 4.5 or 3,015 mph .. Thier is absolutly nuthing the CS could do canonly speaking to STOP that aircraft .. nuthing ..

Converting it into a bomber would be the smartest thing the NGR could do to go to war with the CS being that its UNTOUCHABLE by ANY Coalition military hardwear ..

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:I wonder what that thing is on page 213 of Rifts: Underseas. From the size of it, it looks like it would give the NGR Navy the advantage over....just about anything in the water. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

ART IS NOT CANON

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:I wonder what that thing is on page 213 of Rifts: Underseas. From the size of it, it looks like it would give the NGR Navy the advantage over....just about anything in the water. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

ART IS NOT CANON

not until someone makes it canon


btw Darkbrandon, i totally promised these German dudes in New York that I would write that the NGR conquers the CS and totally takes over the world to protect us all from demonic invaders. I know you're a big CS fan and all, but, you know....sorry.

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:I wonder what that thing is on page 213 of Rifts: Underseas. From the size of it, it looks like it would give the NGR Navy the advantage over....just about anything in the water. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

ART IS NOT CANON

not until someone makes it canon

You have no power over me.

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:I wonder what that thing is on page 213 of Rifts: Underseas. From the size of it, it looks like it would give the NGR Navy the advantage over....just about anything in the water. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

ART IS NOT CANON

not until someone makes it canon

You have no power over me.

But oddly seems to be able to make art canon.

Nxla666 wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:I wonder what that thing is on page 213 of Rifts: Underseas. From the size of it, it looks like it would give the NGR Navy the advantage over....just about anything in the water. I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

ART IS NOT CANON

not until someone makes it canon

You have no power over me.

But oddly seems to be able to make art canon.

hahahahahahahahahahaha

Lenwen wrote:Its ok I guess Saying some one seems to be a CS fanboy is a name calling thing .
Going 100% against the NGR known canon ..

It is when you use it to defame a point of view due to an unwarranted bias.

Lenwen wrote:Saying the NGR navy/airforce is smaller then the CS ... yeah right ..

It is. Again, number of boats does not equal a sizable Navy. The CS fleet carries more troops and planes, therefore it is larger.

Lenwen wrote:Saying that the CS could bring more troops to bere then the NGR ... yeah Right ..

It can. The NGR does not have anything near the transport ability of the CS. Again, the Death's Head transport is effectively a flying carrier.

Lenwen wrote:Even other People are flat out TELLING you your wrong ... an yet you switch topics to try to dispute symantics ..

Look, I can go into a mental ward and state that the sky is blue, the grass is green, and that snow is actually rain (moisture) that is frozen and falling to the earth, and I will get people that flat-out tell me I'm wrong there too.

But that doesn't make it true, and that doesn't make them right.

I believe that this has happened to many great minds over the years; Galeleo, Sir Issac Newton, etc... and we all know who ended up right in those disputes. Not to compare myself to them, or put myself on their level; the lesson learned from them is that 10 people telling one person that they are wrong has no more pull on the truth than a man eating a Big Mac has on the weather.

Lenwen wrote:Mach 4.5 = 3,015 mph .. The NGR's FASTEST plane .... Can EASILY be converted into a bomber styled aircraft with absolutly zero disadvantages ...

Ceiling of that aircraft when loaded with 2 million pounds of explosives = a staggering 100,000 ft .

Except for the fact that at 100,000 ft up you are over 17 miles high and bait for satellites. And that a plane not designed for bombing, carrying an extra 2,000,000Lbs has neither the manueverability nor the same possible rate of speed, I'd say that this ficticious example is as likely to happen as the CS making a burrowing D.H.T.

Lenwen wrote:This aircraft has UNLIMITED Flying range ... Fly's FASTER then ANY MISSLE THE CS HAS and higher then any aircraft yet put in canon for the CS ....

well, given that they are firing at an incoming target, and not trying to chase it down, I'd say the chances are good.

Lenwen wrote:For this .. the CS has absolutly NO deterrent ... None . How is ANY samas going to match the speed or ceiling of this aircraft ?

Bullets.

Lenwen wrote:And you think the Cs has the ability to shoot that aircraft down ? With what ?

Missles ?
Wrong .. the FASTEST missles the CS has only go mach 3 or 2,010 mph .. this aircraft does mach 4.5 or 3,015 mph .. Thier is absolutly nuthing the CS could do canonly speaking to STOP that aircraft .. nuthing ..

Converting it into a bomber would be the smartest thing the NGR could do to go to war with the CS being that its UNTOUCHABLE by ANY Coalition military hardwear ..

Again, the missiles do not need to chase, they need to intercept. And again, bullets, specifically railgun rounds and such are more than capable of shooting down aircraft.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Its ok I guess Saying some one seems to be a CS fanboy is a name calling thing .
Going 100% against the NGR known canon ..

It is when you use it to defame a point of view due to an unwarranted bias.

Lenwen wrote:Saying the NGR navy/airforce is smaller then the CS ... yeah right ..

It is. Again, number of boats does not equal a sizable Navy. The CS fleet carries more troops and planes, therefore it is larger.

Lenwen wrote:Saying that the CS could bring more troops to bere then the NGR ... yeah Right ..

It can. The NGR does not have anything near the transport ability of the CS. Again, the Death's Head transport is effectively a flying carrier.

Lenwen wrote:Even other People are flat out TELLING you your wrong ... an yet you switch topics to try to dispute symantics ..

Look, I can go into a mental ward and state that the sky is blue, the grass is green, and that snow is actually rain (moisture) that is frozen and falling to the earth, and I will get people that flat-out tell me I'm wrong there too.

But that doesn't make it true, and that doesn't make them right.

I believe that this has happened to many great minds over the years; Galeleo, Sir Issac Newton, etc... and we all know who ended up right in those disputes. Not to compare myself to them, or put myself on their level; the lesson learned from them is that 10 people telling one person that they are wrong has no more pull on the truth than a man eating a Big Mac has on the weather.

Lenwen wrote:Mach 4.5 = 3,015 mph .. The NGR's FASTEST plane .... Can EASILY be converted into a bomber styled aircraft with absolutly zero disadvantages ...

Ceiling of that aircraft when loaded with 2 million pounds of explosives = a staggering 100,000 ft .

Except for the fact that at 100,000 ft up you are over 17 miles high and bait for satellites. And that a plane not designed for bombing, carrying an extra 2,000,000Lbs has neither the manueverability nor the same possible rate of speed, I'd say that this ficticious example is as likely to happen as the CS making a burrowing D.H.T.

Lenwen wrote:This aircraft has UNLIMITED Flying range ... Fly's FASTER then ANY MISSLE THE CS HAS and higher then any aircraft yet put in canon for the CS ....

well, given that they are firing at an incoming target, and not trying to chase it down, I'd say the chances are good.

Lenwen wrote:For this .. the CS has absolutly NO deterrent ... None . How is ANY samas going to match the speed or ceiling of this aircraft ?

Bullets.

Lenwen wrote:And you think the Cs has the ability to shoot that aircraft down ? With what ?

Missles ?
Wrong .. the FASTEST missles the CS has only go mach 3 or 2,010 mph .. this aircraft does mach 4.5 or 3,015 mph .. Thier is absolutly nuthing the CS could do canonly speaking to STOP that aircraft .. nuthing ..

Converting it into a bomber would be the smartest thing the NGR could do to go to war with the CS being that its UNTOUCHABLE by ANY Coalition military hardwear ..

Again, the missiles do not need to chase, they need to intercept. And again, bullets, specifically railgun rounds and such are more than capable of shooting down aircraft.

Go read the NGR book , Cause CLEARLY you either believe what your saying .. or saying stuff that is 100% contradictory to what is KNOWN canon ...
The specs I fed you are 100% canon . The weight of that Aircraft 2,000,000lbs of bombs fully loaded an STILL able to maintain those same specs is canon .. sorry for ya loss ..

Give me a Book name an pg # quoting the overall number of the CS navy and airforce population please .

Saying that you could go into a loony bin an state known facts an then them saying your wrong does not equate to what were talkin about here .
Your simply going against known canon . Again book names an pg#'s please that flat out show the CS has a larger fleet or personal or baots or aircraft then the NGR ... then I will show you the truth of the matter ...

I said give me anything that could touch the aircraft I mentioned ... you said Bullets ..

Yes Rail gun fire is MORE then apt at shooting down Aircraft .. if thier within the 11,000 foot range of the round .

I've shown you that your Coalition aircraft the closest 1 to it is STILL at BEST 40,000 Ft under the NGR bomber ...

Now show me a Rail gun that can hit the target at 40,000 feet above it ...

No dont worry .. I'll wait .. cause I know there is no such thing ..

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:btw Darkbrandon, i totally promised these German dudes in New York that I would write that the NGR conquers the CS and totally takes over the world to protect us all from demonic invaders. I know you're a big CS fan and all, but, you know....sorry.

Hey, that reminds me...wanna go back to the gun range...I learned this new trick with my .357

wolfe wrote:

Missles ?
Wrong .. the FASTEST missles the CS has only go mach 3 or 2,010 mph .. this aircraft does mach 4.5 or 3,015 mph .. Thier is absolutly nuthing the CS could do canonly speaking to STOP that aircraft .. nuthing ..

BBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT
Sorry you don't even get a home version of the game sparky

Missiles fired from an aerial platform are already travelling at the speed of said firing platform.
A volley of 6 long range missiles fired from say an intercepting Sea Striker going its top speed (mach 2.8 ) are not travelling at merely mach 3 (the speed of the LRMs).
Care to figure out what speed they are actually going when they blow your hillbilly bomber right out of the sky.

Your concept is just a waste of NGR assets actually, the NGR is quite capable of building a high speed dedicated bombing platform that would be vastly superior to that hillbilly deathtrap you conjured up.
The NGR would need all the XM-288s for cargo hauling just to resupply the invasion force.

Perhaps you could enlighten me ?
Or show me a viable way that missle will "magically" go faster then its listed Velocity of mach 3 which is 2010mph ...

Which is Greater ?
Mach 4 ? 3015mph ? The listed max speed of the cargo/bomber ..
Mach 3 ? 2010mph ? The listed max speed of the CS missles ...

Lenwen wrote:Perhaps you could enlighten me ?
Or show me a viable way that missle will "magically" go faster then its listed Velocity of mach 3 which is 2010mph ...

Which is Greater ?
Mach 4 ? 3015mph ? The listed max speed of the cargo/bomber ..
Mach 3 ? 2010mph ? The listed max speed of the CS missles ...

I saw this on the history channel.

Imagine throwing a ball. That ball goes x speed.

Now, imagine riding a bike, and then throw that same ball. That ball is going X plus the speed of your bike.

The only time this does not work, is when you reach the speed of light, IE: turning on a flashlight while on a bike doesn't make the "light" go faster. That's because if it goes faster than the speed of light, you have to divide by 0 and the world starts all over again.

dark brandon wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Perhaps you could enlighten me ?
Or show me a viable way that missle will "magically" go faster then its listed Velocity of mach 3 which is 2010mph ...

Which is Greater ?
Mach 4 ? 3015mph ? The listed max speed of the cargo/bomber ..
Mach 3 ? 2010mph ? The listed max speed of the CS missles ...

I saw this on the history channel.

Imagine throwing a ball. That ball goes x speed.

Now, imagine riding a bike, and then throw that same ball. That ball is going X plus the speed of your bike.

The only time this does not work, is when you reach the speed of light, IE: turning on a flashlight while on a bike doesn't make the "light" go faster. That's because if it goes faster than the speed of light, you have to divide by 0 and the world starts all over again.

So then a missle launched at mach 1.5 is going to go FASTER then the listed Max velocity of mach 3 ?

Is this what your telling me ?

Lenwen wrote:So then a missle launched at mach 1.5 is going to go FASTER then the listed Max velocity of mach 3 ?

Is this what your telling me ?

Yep. The listed max velocity is if it's fired from a stationary possition.

dark brandon wrote:

Lenwen wrote:So then a missle launched at mach 1.5 is going to go FASTER then the listed Max velocity of mach 3 ?

Is this what your telling me ?

Yep. The listed max velocity is if it's fired from a stationary possition.

And what is the name of this theory or concept ? I should go an check that out cause I understand it will at FIRST more then likely go faster then its listed velocity ..

But at some point that extra velocity is going to ware off an the velocity will then become that of just the proppellent of the rocket itself aka the missle's own engine will be the sole provider of the velocity .

After rereading several key sections in Underseas , Coalition War Machine as well as that of the NGR and the Coalition Navy books ...

1 NGR submersible aircraft carrier is nearly the equivlent of the entire Coalition navy/airforce comebined .

And the NGR has 5 of those .

Currently the Coalition has only the Brown water navy as thier only REAL active anything for navy/Airforce ..

The NGR as it stands right now , has a Navy roughly 5 times greater then that of the CS .

So there goes the whole The CS could blockade anything of the NGR . With Carriers that can submerge an Battleships that are larger then MOST the ships the CS has , The NGR would litterally tear threw anything the CS currently has in any navel battle .

Lenwen wrote:And what is the name of this theory or concept ? I should go an check that out cause I understand it will at FIRST more then likely go faster then its listed velocity ..

But at some point that extra velocity is going to ware off an the velocity will then become that of just the proppellent of the rocket itself aka the missle's own engine will be the sole provider of the velocity .

Special Relativity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdfnRWGgbd0

It's the same reasons satellites stay in orbit.

Lenwen wrote:Go read the NGR book , Cause CLEARLY you either believe what your saying .. or saying stuff that is 100% contradictory to what is KNOWN canon ...
The specs I fed you are 100% canon . The weight of that Aircraft 2,000,000lbs of bombs fully loaded an STILL able to maintain those same specs is canon .. sorry for ya loss ..

Give me a Book name an pg # quoting the overall number of the CS navy and airforce population please .

I'll give you one I happened to remember off the top of my head here (I am at work right now without access to my books).

The CS has 3.2 million SAMAS stock-piled, with over half currently in use. That's 1,600,000 SAMAS pilots using the regular old Death's Head SAMAS. This statistic is direct from the Coalition War Campaign, right under the SAMAS description. The majority of these SAMAS are for police and home-guard, and are not directly in the military. Not that this matters, as that is quite the airforce available.

Lenwen wrote:Saying that you could go into a loony bin an state known facts an then them saying your wrong does not equate to what were talkin about here .

Under certain circumstances I believe it does.

Lenwen wrote:Your simply going against known canon . Again book names an pg#'s please that flat out show the CS has a larger fleet or personal or baots or aircraft then the NGR ... then I will show you the truth of the matter ...

I did. It is apparent that you have not though.

Lenwen wrote:I said give me anything that could touch the aircraft I mentioned ... you said Bullets ..

Yes Rail gun fire is MORE then apt at shooting down Aircraft .. if thier within the 11,000 foot range of the round .

I've shown you that your Coalition aircraft the closest 1 to it is STILL at BEST 40,000 Ft under the NGR bomber ...

Now show me a Rail gun that can hit the target at 40,000 feet above it ...

No dont worry .. I'll wait .. cause I know there is no such thing ..

I said missiles, but you seem to have convieniently ignored the fact that an intercept is possible. Also, you haven't addressed the fact that at an altitude of 100,000 feet you are in danger of being hit by a killer satellite.

glitterboy2098 wrote:again, those 8 carriers alone can supply 1280 Dragonwing bot's, each with combat capabilities and performance similar to the CS combat jets.

Similar, but inferior overall. Dragonwings are slower than all but one CS airframe and carry a light missile load. They would excell at point attacks, but would be raw meat in the air.

they can also supply several hundred XM-280 fighter bombers, which i have already shown are superior to CS jets.

Wrong. Ten per carrier or 80 for the fleet. And the XM-280 is less than 200 mph faster, has 175 mdc less and, most importantly, has NO long range missile load compared to the CSN-115. The XM 280 is slower, has 90 less MDC, and likewise no long-range missile load compared to the CSN-117.

The XM 275 is worthless in air-to-air combat.

in addition, those 8 carriers alone can supply an entire regiment of flying PA, and several dozen squadrons of VTOL's.

16,640 total combat troops. That's it. No way that few number of troops can hold a beach-head.

they can supply an entire regiment of aquatic PA and borgs as well, which outnumber the compliments of the CS navy's equivilents..

and the numbers just get larger when you add the cruisers compliments.....

And they get smaller again when you consider the NGR has no counter-submarine systems. That means no defense against CSN Shark and Orca attack subs.

and in terms of airforce, it's only a bit over 4000km from germany to the US. the Xm-280 fighter bombers can cover that distance in 2 hours. so a sizable portion of the NGr's airforce is avaiable to strike the CS navy, which is almost entirely a surface fleet. they can't submerge to avoid airstrikes. the NGR's airforce could then turn back and be back in germany in time for dinner, with minimal chance for an enemy to exploit the temporary hole in their air defense.

And the CSN uses the Aegis XII radars with an 800 mile range that can be daisy-chained to other CS radar nets. The XM-280's would be spotted and shot down long before they could get to the CS fleets.

Lenwen wrote:After rereading several key sections in Underseas , Coalition War Machine as well as that of the NGR and the Coalition Navy books ...

1 NGR submersible aircraft carrier is nearly the equivlent of the entire Coalition navy/airforce comebined .

Hardly. Underseas pg 207.

And the NGR has 5 of those .

Eight. Ibid pg 207

Currently the Coalition has only the Brown water navy as thier only REAL active anything for navy/Airforce ..

As has been pointed out to you at least 50 times the CS has THREE Fleets. 1st Fleet was the one destroyed by FQ. 2nd Fleet is intact and fully operational. 3rd Fleet is the brown water naval operation. SB4 pg 18

The NGR as it stands right now , has a Navy roughly 5 times greater then that of the CS .

[/quote][/quote]

No. The NGR has more carriers carrying inferior airframes and no equilivent to the James Bay or Sea King guided missile cruisers, and most importantly no anti-submarine assets to counter CS Orca and Shark attack subs.

My belief is that it would result in Mutually Assured Destruction. The NGR could nuke the crap out of the CS while the CS could kill most of the NGR with germ warfare and nukes.

Neither power would go into a land war because of the incredible difficulty associated and I rank the Triax navy as being slightly better than the CS navy.

rat_bastard wrote:My belief is that it would result in Mutually Assured Destruction. The NGR could nuke the crap out of the CS while the CS could kill most of the NGR with germ warfare and nukes.

The NGR has no strategic nuclear weapons.

Neither power would go into a land war because of the incredible difficulty associated and I rank the Triax navy as being slightly better than the CS navy.

It's larger at any rate.

Samored II wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:My belief is that it would result in Mutually Assured Destruction. The NGR could nuke the crap out of the CS while the CS could kill most of the NGR with germ warfare and nukes.

The NGR has no strategic nuclear weapons.

Yes but they clearly have the materials and the technology to manufacturer them if they wanted to.

Neither power would go into a land war because of the incredible difficulty associated and I rank the Triax navy as being slightly better than the CS navy.

It's larger at any rate.

And for a war that is mostly subs tossing nukes that's good enough.

not to mention the NGR's transforming subfighter.

and the subfighter is something the CS doesn't have a counter for, since they're faster than the SAMAS's in underwater use, carry firepower as good if not better, and are as tough as a CS robot...

and the CS built submarines have been built with a very "cold war" style, (and of course the 'Shark' class is cold war era), with a great emphasis on anti-shipping firepower, and less on point defense. flights of subfighters will give the CS subs fits, since they'll be able to do plenty of damage with the CS subs lacking the manuverbility or defenses to fight back effectively.

What you have is 1.6 million Samas in Storage. However, there aren't that many people capable of piloting the SAMAS. Unless the coalition drafts D-Bees, which will never happen, all you have is replacements for pilots who are likely prisoners of war.

What you also need to consider on the Coalition side is Skelebots. Why the !@#$@ do you care about SAMAS? Devote every Coalition facility to Skelebots, have them march across the bottom of the ocean (They're soulless, so the Lord of the Deep doesn't really care). Figure 50 percent of your limitless army of Skelebots reaches the NGR Navy and softens it up.

That's the Coalition's best chance to win, and it's STILL probably not enough.

wolfe wrote:If you do this excercise with the NGR still having to deal with the Gargoyles and Brodkil and the CS with their enemies at home then the war doesn't even start.

Neither side would be so beyond insane to actually wage a war under those conditions, it would at most be a cold war and maybe, maybe at most some naval assets take pot shots at one another but that is exteremely unlikely as they both have to cross a vast and hostile Atlantic just to do so.

The NGR would never do so until AFTER Operation Sea Storm the amphibious invasion of the Gargoyle empire as that is what a majority of the naval assests is earmarked for and they don't want their enemies to realise they have this navy yet.
Neither side has the resources or assets to waste on a pointless war with an enemy many thousands of miles away while they are surrounded by more immediate threats at home.
Waging such a war would make the insanity that the Tolkeen war was presented to be look like a timeless masterpiece.

100% agreed ,

Insain to fight each other while still going threw other war's .

How ever .. in a 1 on 1 fight . With everything that is canon for each Nation .

NGR would destroy the CS within a month . This would not even be a contest .

duck-foot wrote:ok well then lets take the hostile neighbors out the equastion

The Coalition would have no chance . Outside of pre-emtive (sp?) nuking the NGR (which would be the total opposite of what the war would be for unless were talking flat out 100% total destruction ) Then the First country to send long range nukes to the other would in fact be the winner .

I see the winner in either case tho being the NGR . Supersonic X-port bringing couple hundred Long range nukes an simply carpet bombing the CS , As well as bringing several of those nearly as large as the entire 1st fleet Submersible Subs into the equation an close to Chi-Town itself an then lettn loose its total compliment of Flying P.A. robots an various other tricks an treats for the CS , I do not see how the CS would survive .

The real problem is that Operation Sea Storm relies on the "Soft Underbelly of Europe" Theory. They can't afford to rest. Or what happened to the US in Italy during WWII will happen to the NGR.

For the record, High Command made them rest for two weeks, and all the crappy Italian troops were replaced with crack German Wermacht units. It was a disaster.

duck-foot wrote:
POPULATION.
this is easy if the war becomes like WW1 with however has the biggest population wins then NGR has it hands down, however, that is never the case. the CS has some 5 million citizens the NGR has 8 i think (am i wrong)

I believe the CS has around the 16-20 million population to include EVERY Fortress City and EVERY burb an every Debee and everything ..

While the NGR is said to have 20million population be roughly 33% of its TOTAL population .

That being said hands down the NGR is going to have a LARGER population as well as military , thats undeniable.

-EDIT-
I find it laughable that most CS fanboys on here seem to think that the robots an some Jets an even the very Power Armor that the CS uses is above that of the NGR , While Nearly a full 1/3rd of all the newer Bots , P.A. and jets that are IN the New armies of the CS were developed with the Help of NGR , wether it be on a molecular lvl for the Armors or better robotics or even better Jets overall then the CS has ever had prior to that point ...

Yet they refuse to believe that the NGR has even BETTER robots , Jets , Cybernetics , Power Armor an various OTHER tech they have never yet even begun to share with anyone .

I just figured I would point this out for everyone ..

With out the Help of the NGR .. take away ALOTTA the new breakthrew's the Coalitions military has had in the CCW book .
Which means .. Thier not even going to be half of what they are now ..

Lenwen wrote:-EDIT-
I find it laughable that most CS fanboys on here seem to think that the robots an some Jets an even the very Power Armor that the CS uses is above that of the NGR , While Nearly a full 1/3rd of all the newer Bots , P.A. and jets that are IN the New armies of the CS were developed with the Help of NGR , wether it be on a molecular lvl for the Armors or better robotics or even better Jets overall then the CS has ever had prior to that point ...

Yet they refuse to believe that the NGR has even BETTER robots , Jets , Cybernetics , Power Armor an various OTHER tech they have never yet even begun to share with anyone .

I just figured I would point this out for everyone ..

With out the Help of the NGR .. take away ALOTTA the new breakthrew's the Coalitions military has had in the CCW book .
Which means .. Thier not even going to be half of what they are now ..

Lenwen, seriously, calm down and stop being so confrontational on this. I'm sorry to call you out specifically on this, but your comments have been very confrontational when they don't need to be. I realize you are not the only one, but that doesn't excuse anything. Also, you can be pro-NGR without being so anti-CS. We all need to take a chill pill and stop taking this so personally. So we disagree, big frakking deal!

Yes the NGR has massive benefits. I agree 100%. The CS, despite your dislike and disrespect of them, is not a paper tiger by a long shot. Nor are they idiots without the technical background to be able to make their own advances. You might not have written them like that, but its how they are written. You can't change that.

On to actual points given, and I'm goign to stay away from overt specifics on this (such as Navy, Air Force, army, etc)
The NGR can cross the Atlantic quicker, absolutely. They could design some hyper effective bombers if they wanted to, without doubt. The CS, in a war with a technological enemy, would not sit on its duff either. It would end up a slugging match that would end up with two losers. PERIOD. The NGR would be weakened, and while technically perhaps victorious, would have a pyrrhic victory on their hands (because this war would eat up resources by the carrier full, and it would cause food shortages at home, assuming they took the fight to the CS. If the fight happens in Europe, then it would cost them whatever assets the CS bombed. The CS is very good at mutually assured destruction, and if they invaded the NGR, they would be intent on destroying their enemy's production capability. The same goes for the NGR. And whichever one is the "loser" is so weakened their respective continent falls apart under the strain, and any sort of stability they had falls apart. This power vacuum would be filled, but by who is the question.

And I'll throw in one more wild card for the CS: Archie. Archie considers the CS the best hope for North America short of himself. And he WOULD march an army of bots across the bottom of the Atlantic to destroy the folks messing in his playground (to use the impossible scenario used by someone else ealier). He would allow any strategic strikes against the Emperor and his son, but he would definately not let the government fall, nor the stability it brings (all while working against the Republicans, who would be trying to take advantage of this too). He does not want a North America that is weaker against Atlantis, which is what it would end up happening. I could actually see him orchestrating some Splugorth Raiders being near the two forces while on maneuvers, perhaps preparing for actual battle. Given how they both hate Atlantis, they would call a truce long enough to kill the enemy of all. Combine this with stirring up the Xiticix, and the remenants of the Gargoyles and Brodkil (remember, this scenario ONLY works if they are not a threat anymore), and they would have to withdraw to protect their own borders, which is what Archie would want. they may continue a shadow war, and a propaganda war, but the shooting war would be over.

MikelAmroni wrote:

Lenwen wrote:-EDIT-
I find it laughable that most CS fanboys on here seem to think that the robots an some Jets an even the very Power Armor that the CS uses is above that of the NGR , While Nearly a full 1/3rd of all the newer Bots , P.A. and jets that are IN the New armies of the CS were developed with the Help of NGR , wether it be on a molecular lvl for the Armors or better robotics or even better Jets overall then the CS has ever had prior to that point ...

Yet they refuse to believe that the NGR has even BETTER robots , Jets , Cybernetics , Power Armor an various OTHER tech they have never yet even begun to share with anyone .

I just figured I would point this out for everyone ..

With out the Help of the NGR .. take away ALOTTA the new breakthrew's the Coalitions military has had in the CCW book .
Which means .. Thier not even going to be half of what they are now ..

Lenwen, seriously, calm down and stop being so confrontational on this. I'm sorry to call you out specifically on this, but your comments have been very confrontational when they don't need to be. I realize you are not the only one, but that doesn't excuse anything. Also, you can be pro-NGR without being so anti-CS. We all need to take a chill pill and stop taking this so personally. So we disagree, big frakking deal!

Yes the NGR has massive benefits. I agree 100%. The CS, despite your dislike and disrespect of them, is not a paper tiger by a long shot. Nor are they idiots without the technical background to be able to make their own advances. You might not have written them like that, but its how they are written. You can't change that.

Ok so my pointing out that the CS war machine reveled in CWC world book 11 would not be the same thing with out , the Help of the NGR .. Is confrontational ?

Or me calling a CS fanboy in general a CS fanboy .. is the part that is confrontational ?

I will be the first to admit , I do not like the CS . Will not like the CS . Thier flat out and out the Villians EVERYONE loves to hate .. Words written by KS himself , Time and time an time again .

Can I change opinions of some people on here about the CS ? Absolutly not . But neither will I change my mindset about them .
Nor will I allow anyone to give them anything that is not cannon an then try to pass it off as canon .

The fact that some people on these baords are flat out and out never willing to give an inch about the CS or thier military is the very reason I wont give them an inch either .

If its not canon .. its not canon .. it is what it is ..

And a CS fanboy .. is what it is .. when thier a fanboy ..
If it walks like a duck , Quacks like a duck , Well .. you get it ..

An I've seen alotta stuff "Givin" to the CS threw said fanboy base .. with out any merit what so ever .
I am here simply to make sure my opinion an voice is heard , Regaurdless of wether it makes sence to others or not .
And in a War in a situation where the NGR / CS faced ONLY each other ..
The CS would be crushed by many things .
1 - Numbers . NGR has nearly a 5-1 odds in military numbers .

2 - Tech , The NGR "gave" the CS several "secrets" that enabled them to unmask thier "new" war machine .. I mean really .. The Jager is the STANDARD P.A. of the NGR and is equal to 3 regular suits of Dead boy armor ..


3 - Training . The NGR has been at war for 80 years . Obviously thier troops are going to have higher lvls then anything the CS has . As I said previously , a 6 month siege is nuthing compared to a 80 year WAR .

4 - Resources , Yeah the NGR is "going" to eventually have issues with them but as of right now the NGR is good to go . The fact that thier smart enough to understand what the future holds does not equate to them having NO resources right now . The NGR has them as of this post . But who knows what the next 6 - 12 months will hold . Thats when the Expected shortage is supposed to hit the hardest .

In a War with the CS the resources issue wouldent even be a thought . The NGR would defeat the CS prior to the resources issue becomming said issue ..

Thats just how I personally see the whole thing , If you dont see it as such thats your opinion. But even reading what everything says about the shortage of resources flat out says in the next so many months .. not right now ..

Lenwen wrote:Ok so my pointing out that the CS war machine reveled in CWC world book 11 would not be the same thing with out , the Help of the NGR .. Is confrontational ?

Unless it's written somewhere, the only places it's written NGR had anything to do with CS war machine is when it specifically states the new body armor and the CS dagger in New Navy. Other than that, there is nothing to indicate NGR had anything to do with the CS war machine.

Or me calling a CS fanboy in general a CS fanboy .. is the part that is confrontational ?

Is name calling really appropriate or adult, never mind if it's confrontational.

I will be the first to admit , I do not like the CS . Will not like the CS . Thier flat out and out the Villians EVERYONE loves to hate .. Words written by KS himself , Time and time an time again .

Can I change opinions of some people on here about the CS ? Absolutly not . But neither will I change my mindset about them .
Nor will I allow anyone to give them anything that is not cannon an then try to pass it off as canon .

Why so serious? Why so taken aback by a fictitious nation? Why do you make it a personal crusade and hamper creativity just to prove a point? As stated before, no one that I've seen thus far have said anything to the fact that what hey are suggesting is Canon. It's well known you have made it a personal mission to dismiss the CS, which is fine, but you can do it without name-calling. In fact, it's more fun rather than trying to argue you have a discussion.

The fact that some people on these baords are flat out and out never willing to give an inch about the CS or thier military is the very reason I wont give them an inch either .

There are plenty of people who will give an inch. I would be willing to bet out of the last 10 or so CS thread, you probably started most of them.

And a CS fanboy .. is what it is .. when thier a fanboy ..
If it walks like a duck , Quacks like a duck , Well .. you get it ..

Except where as a duck is a reality, any sort of "label" is just rude and condescending. Semantics aside, saying "CS fanboy" or really "fanboy" anything isn't meant to be anything other than an insult.

An I've seen alotta stuff "Givin" to the CS threw said fanboy base .. with out any merit what so ever .
I am here simply to make sure my opinion an voice is heard , Regaurdless of wether it makes sence to others or not .
And in a War in a situation where the NGR / CS faced ONLY each other ..

What makes sense is a matter of opinion. Saying anyone is wrong about seeing if the CS would win/lose vs NGR is ridiculous, just as if anyone saying the NGR winning is just as ridiculous. I will give an example:

2 - Tech , The NGR "gave" the CS several "secrets" that enabled them to unmask thier "new" war machine .. I mean really .. The Jager is the STANDARD P.A. of the NGR and is equal to 3 regular suits of Dead boy armor ..

As stated, there is only 2 places where NGR gave anything. One of those (the Dagger) is a combined effort. Other than this, there is nothing that says NGR gave CS anything. Here's another thing to consider. CS is considered to only be 10 years behind NGR. CS current military is about on par mechanically with the stuff the NGR had 10 years ago. Not exact, but on par. So, as stated in canon, CS was going to eventually catch up to NGR (10 years), which they have done so currently.

3 - Training . The NGR has been at war for 80 years . Obviously thier troops are going to have higher lvls then anything the CS has . As I said previously , a 6 month siege is nuthing compared to a 80 year WAR .

here's another thought. NGR has been at war for 80 years against the same opponent. This, instead of a boon, could hamper them, as they are use to fighting floods of monsters, not tech enemies. They could very well have to build, from the ground up their entire battle plan. Could this be? Yes, it could also be no. There is no right way to answer this.
Another thought, is (I haven't found it) that NGR troops are going to be higher levels. Is that canon? I don't think it is. Can we assume it is? Maybe. On one hand, yeah, 80 years of fighting. On another, maybe the reason the NGR has so many is because they trade out people in much more rapid succession. People aren't kept on the battle fronts quite as long. So, NGR will have more troops of the same level. This is also feasible.

dark brandon wrote: As stated, there is only 2 places where NGR gave anything. One of those (the Dagger) is a combined effort. Other than this, there is nothing that says NGR gave CS anything. Here's another thing to consider. CS is considered to only be 10 years behind NGR. CS current military is about on par mechanically with the stuff the NGR had 10 years ago. Not exact, but on par. So, as stated in canon, CS was going to eventually catch up to NGR (10 years), which they have done so currently.

Which makes me laugh. Think about it .. The reason givin for the Tech lvl of the CS is "cause thier always at war " . In reality thier always simply devistating littler area's of pocket towns that have no real chance .

Conversly .. The NGR who has had the whole time Everything since prior to the comming of the Rifts , Pre Rifts knowledge , history ( REAL history ) And REAL military history as well as production value . And have been at war longer then the CS was a nation ( or close to it ) yet thier tech has been stagnent long enough for the CS to "close the gap" Am I the only person on the baords who see's this as relativly stupid ?

It works for the explanation as to why the CS has close to Phase World tech , Yet ..
Its not a good enough reason as to why the NGR does not yet have Phase world lvl tech ? And in fact has "stagnented" thier lvl of tech ...

Really ? This line stinks .. bad if you ask me .. If it works for 1 nation , it will / should work for EVERY nation ...

3 - Training . The NGR has been at war for 80 years . Obviously thier troops are going to have higher lvls then anything the CS has . As I said previously , a 6 month siege is nuthing compared to a 80 year WAR .

dark brandon wrote:here's another thought. NGR has been at war for 80 years against the same opponent. This, instead of a boon, could hamper them, as they are use to fighting floods of monsters, not tech enemies. They could very well have to build, from the ground up their entire battle plan. Could this be? Yes, it could also be no. There is no right way to answer this.
Another thought, is (I haven't found it) that NGR troops are going to be higher levels. Is that canon? I don't think it is. Can we assume it is? Maybe. On one hand, yeah, 80 years of fighting. On another, maybe the reason the NGR has so many is because they trade out people in much more rapid succession. People aren't kept on the battle fronts quite as long. So, NGR will have more troops of the same level. This is also feasible.

Even with a military of 10-15 million strong and divisional rotations of said millions , Those SAME troops will likely see combat no less then 2 or 3 rotational times . 80 years long war . Rotational units every 6 months to a year ... One soilder does 5 years , that means on average of 2 or 3 combat cycles .. and more then likely more .. meaning regaurdless of how you look at it that NGR military is going to be on average higher lvl then the CS military .

And the old saying of the NGR does not fight Tech types .. thats out the window , Am I the only person that has read NGR world book ? Gargoyals using giant sized rail guns , Brodkil who use tech weapons , Gargoyalites using friggen Robots an other nasty stuff ...

Simply put the NGR is going up against a multi-functionality force . Its going against Magical / Tech weilding forces and its not only holding its own but currently it has the upper hand.

Or am I the only person that has read this ?