Zer0 Kay wrote:we aren't over stating Karls power.
The "laws" can be changed at his whim
making them dictates rather than laws
Source?
Zer0 Kay wrote:IF the people D have that power to depose Prosek and don't then the people are indeed evil.
Why?
Do people with the power to depose a leader necessarily think the leader is evil or recognize the leader has an evil alignment?
Would they naturally know of a superior replacement guaranteed to improve the nation rather than make it worse?
Zer0 Kay wrote:No that doesn't flow the other way that the already stated people of the CS not being primarily evil per the canon, not choosing to depose prosek makes him good.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that Karl has a good alignment because he wasn't deposed.
Zer0 Kay wrote:1. Prosek does hold all the power and as such makes the nation evil.
2. Prosek does not have all the power and the people choose not to depose him cuz those with the power to do so are evil therefore making the nation evil.
3. Prosek does not have all the power and the good people of the nation do nothing out of fear allowing the nation to be evil.
You seem to be under the impression that bad people cannot lead a good nation, I don't agree with that. Leaders may be diabolic in their self-interest but do good acts to placate the populace, resulting in a good nation even if done for selfish purposes.
Lex Luthor being evil doesn't make LexCorp evil. Lex Luthor getting elected president doesn't make America evil.
Shark_Force wrote:last i checked, the NGR is explicitly surrounded by (sub)demons and nonhuman invaders (many of which have access to at least some form of magic) to a much greater extent than the CS
The CS and NGR face very different threats. I'd suggest a 'who is more good' NGR vs CS thread to explore this in better depth.
The CS has explicitly had to deal with loads of shape-changers, magical flying demon army accidents and invasion by a magical nation. When has the NGR been described as having to deal with this?
I can accept that the brute force of the combined numbers of the Brodkil/Gargoyles may outweigh the sum of force the CS has had to face. But I don't think they are as intricate, as subtle, as sneaky, as manipulative, as the enemies the CS had had to face.
They could be if they were smart, ie the Brodkil staying invisible all the time, but for some reason they love bionics and probably like getting shot at too or something.
Even an invisible 12ft Brodkil is way easier to pick up by thermal imaging than an invisible 6ft human though.
Shark_Force wrote:indiscriminately murdering large numbers of innocent d-bees
When the CS murders large numbers of innocent D-Bees, it does not do so indiscriminately. There's a reason some species like the Slurmph get targeted with genocide and other kinds of D-Bees do not.
Shark_Force wrote:without suppressing knowledge, without altering history
The CS does not alter history, it simply presents an official version of it. A version they have gone to the time of fact-checking.
Does it mention anywhere that the CS has explicitly lied about history? Am curious if that's actually happened.
If the CS suppresses information, they may not be altering history, just not calling a claim history because they haven't actually verified it.
The concerns that people are lying about pre-Rifts history: is that pure bunk? Or could people actually be lying about pre-Rifts history? Why wouldn't this be a real concern?
Consider the issue of 'Holocaust Revisionism' in modern day, and disagreements people have about numbers. That's relating to stuff about 70 years ago. In a world much more stable than in Rifts. When you're dealing with stuff CENTURIES ago, after nuclear disasters and scavengers, where you don't have international academia and peace to verify scientifically the discoveries... what, we should just rely on some Indiana-Jones at their word to tell people the truth about the world that came before?
Shark_Force wrote:declaring war on nations that value things which they don't but do not pose a threat
That never happened.
Free Quebec was hurting its people by allowing too much free access to Juicer Conversion. Glitter Boys were too much power in the hands of one man, which on its own might not have been a problem except by refusing Psi-Hounds they were leaving their back door open to magical and psionic mind control.
Tolkeen was militarizing and making war machines, they were suspects in terrorist attacks originating in Old Chicago, they didn't voluntarily stop summoning demons or regulate magic practitioners who could do it. In spite of leaving the FoM, not wanting to join the Great City militarizing against Chi-Town, they ended up making the same mistakes. The CS saw the writing on the wall and this time attacked first, not wanting a repeat of the Battle of Chi-Town or the winged-demon massacre.
Shark_Force wrote:without straight-up outlawing other manufacturers of products that are pretty much essential to survival on rifts earth, but they seem to have managed to get by just fine without turning into anything's meal or pet.
What are you talking about here, Wilk's or something? I thought all the CS outlawed of theirs were their plastic guns that could get through metal detectors.
Shark_Force wrote:they haven't gone remotely as far as the CS, and their enemy is explicitly stated to be a more dangerous one than anything the CS faces.
More blatently dangerous but not as insidious. I mean, technically a force that assassinates your leadership and replaces it with changelings and dragons and enslaves you isn't as dangerous as an enemy that is coming to eat all of you. But each has different kinds of responses.
Shark_Force wrote:they haven't embraced magic, they haven't even embraced psionics, they haven't genetically engineered any slave races to use as expendable troops or to help them purge their territory of magic users, and yet, there they are, not dead, not eaten, not enslaved.
They also survived the Coming of the Rifts with far less damage than North America. They had a higher base of tech and resources to defend themselves with.
Superman: "hey Batman, I just walk up and crush the guns of criminals so they can't fire and hit innocent people, why do you have to be so brutal and go and break their wrist so they drop their gun? it's completely unnecessary .. and don't even get me started on Olly, putting arrows through people's hands like that, why can't you be more considerate like me?"
cosmicfish wrote:they squash freedom even for their own
Of course, same as we do. I do not have the freedom to go assault whoever I like just because they were rude to me. In return I enjoy the freedom from such abuses myself.
cosmicfish wrote:"safety" is a ridiculous standard - someone in solitary confinement has safety... but zero freedom.
They have the freedom to sleep without being eaten by a demon.
cosmicfish wrote:The Declaration of Independence lists "life" and "liberty" separately because having one neither guarantees nor even implies the other.
Having liberty means you are alive, there is no liberty while dead, unless you become a ghost in which case you can liberally walk through walls and cool stuff.
Being alive means you have some level of liberty, although it may be minimal so additional assurances of liberty would be good. The constitution hopefully goes into more detail about what added liberties those are.
cosmicfish wrote:"good" requires that the life and freedom supported is more than your own, and that the sacrifice is largely your own.
That may apply on an individual system (the "always help others" requirement) but it does not apply on the level of nations. A nation can be good simply for caring for and protecting its people, doesn't have to go out and help other nations to be good. The government and its people are distinct entities so a government can be good by helping non-government people.
cosmicfish wrote:The presence of living humans is not proof of the virtue or necessity of their policies. It just proves that people lived, and doesn't even prove that they would have otherwise died.
True, but the proof is more by contrast to surrounding areas. We know there are alligators out there, and they are in fact camping on the doorstep.
The wilderness outside the Chi-Town burbs is so bad that D-Bees are willing to come to the Burbs for protection. Why else would they be there? Did they come to invade or steal from humans or something? If that's the case, then CS concerns are still affirmed.
cosmicfish wrote:many of those killed are not threats, any more than is someone with an MDC rifle and armor.
Owning MD weapons and MDC armor do not give you the capacity to summon monsters that will kill people. This capacity is present in many spellcasters and the CS doesn't have any reliable means of distinguishing which ones. The level of danger is very different. The level of subtlety is different.
cosmicfish wrote:Totalitarianism is the main process of the CS
Not sure I agree, what if I see industrial expansion as their main process and totalitarianism being a possibly brief interlude that happens in response to the assassination of their previous leader?
cosmicfish wrote:justifying it as a means to an end means accepting that their (The CS? The Proseks?) desired end is worth the means that they use to obtain it.
You can weigh this with other options too. I mean heck, let's examine the shape-changer purge of 1 PA.
If auto-Gs and changelings and dragons were going around killing people with basic impunity, is not persecuting these shape-changers as a whole and kicking them out of your nation a means that is worth the end it will lead to?
cosmicfish wrote:So... the CS benefits the CS and tends to its own basic needs? That is a characteristic of any group that wishes to continue, good, selfish, or even evil.
No, it also tends to the basic needs (albeit secondarily) of others who are not members.
If you are going to hand-wave the impact of that as "they are just being groomed as member states" then you can hand-wave most acts of kindness or aid this way.
Help someone? You probably just want them to feel like they owe you, want them to be your friend, think if you help them they will be less likely to attack you, selfish!
The only pure aid could be untrackable anonymous donations where you could never be identified. You'd have to sneak around and help people without them knowing who was helpipng them.
In that way, the Vanguard is probably more good/selfless helping the CS than the CS is helping a border town full of possible army recruits (perhaps a new member state in decades to come) but I still think the CS is doing good things, in spite of these good things possibly having karmic rewards for them later.
cosmicfish wrote:if you are going to summarily discard the words of Erin Tarn you should really compare her writings with the actual write-ups - there are a few things that she gets wrong but she was included as a way to convey the reality of the world to the players and her descriptions are generally in step with the rules.
Being right about some things doesn't mean you're right about them all. The best liars will mostly tell the truth and only lie occasionally, so there are fewer holes in their stories and they've built up rapport.
I guess based on that: maybe she was lying about being rescued by a SAMAS Squadron from a Lorica Wraith. Though I'm not sure why she would since it seems in her interest not to paint guys wanting her captured as good guys. Telling the truth about their good deeds (or inventing them to appear balanced and impartial if that was the case) doesn't mean I should believe her about her bad ones. She calls Karl "the devil" after all.
cosmicfish wrote:that section of RUE also includes this line: I do see the CS as villains.
RUEp230? Third paragraph of right column? How KS sees them in his campaigns is irrelevant and he tells us as much. He opens the "How to Use Coalition Characters" section with saying Coalition characters can be played as good guys and bad guys, and I think that extends to the States as well.
He says they have "become the villains" for "most gamers and Game Masters" (did he take a poll or something?) so KS' attitudes seem to fall in line with what most gamers/GMs think (or perhaps he thinks most gamers/GM share his preferences? *shrug*)
His answering "is the Coalition good or evil" with "yes" means he recognizes the dichotomy. He says the CS reflects duality, not black and white (in spite of the armor) but every shade of grey. KS mentions he plays different CS groups differently.
Notably at the start of RUEp231 we are told "the real patriots" are "good guys". This means that people in the CS who are not good are not patriots. Shouldn't we define a nation by true patriots rather than non-patriots?
eliakon wrote:we have explicit statements in various places of the evil and villainy of the CS. Do we have citations of them doing good? Not "some act that can be interpreted as good with the right spin."
Sure, RUEp230's 'How to use' 5th paragraph 6th sentence
"Bold heroes ready to help their fellow humans and risk their own lives to save innocent people - human people. And they do. They die in droves to save human lives and won't hesitate to risk their own lives to save an innocent farmer or child from the clutches of an evil monster or wicked D-Bee"
This says nothing about the farmer or child having to be a CS citizen. Seems protective stuff the CS does gets spun as self-interest while offensive stuff they do gets spun as cruelty rather than self-interest or protecting others.
eliakon wrote:actual, factual. "On this day, in this place the CS did this specific good thing for this good reason?"
Soldiers dying to rescue the enslaved village Tarn was in doesn't count because that must've been soldiers seeing a chance to waste ammo shooting monsters for the lulz. CS army has so much fun fighting monsters they just want to run up and die impaled on barbed tentacles for a chance to go HtH and hack it up with a vibro-blade. Had nothing at all to do with putting yourself in between a monster and the village kids beckoned to its fake slavery circus.
eliakon wrote:(Japan is even nicer
)
and even less touched by the damage of the rifts...
Zer0 Kay wrote:I like how Tor for some reason thinks that the C.S. has political parties, as if the Emperor is voted in or "allowed" to rule.
He was, he was elected Chairman in a democratic process, just as his father was. Sedition goes into detail about that in the timeline.
Once democratically elected Chairman, he served in that post for 5 years before he opted to become Emperor.
There was a group of people in the CS (unclear on the size) who kept pushing for this to happen. He ignored them for years and eventually was like "k whatev" and did so, so they could shut up and he could keep doing his job.
Zer0 Kay wrote:He doesn't realize it is a Monarchy
I guess that's why I said " It is possible to maintain a monarch while limiting their power"
Zer0 Kay wrote:and not like the modern figurehead monarchies of England or Japan.
While I accept that Karl is more than a figurehead and holds more power than the Japanese Emperor or the Queen of England in present times, that still doesn't mean he has unlimited power or has Palpatinian levels of control.
It might help if people could find statements about just how much sway Karl has. I know it's a great deal but I'm not sure if I buy into Karl being able to do whatever he wants.
In that SoT plotline about possibly mind-altering Karl into a goodguy (Orb of Solomon) it talks about how Karl would have to make CS changes gradually to avoid upsetting people. This shows there are limits on what he can do.
Zer0 Kay wrote:There is no voting him out, there is no lords ousting him, because any sign of rebellion is sure to meet a swift demise because the instigator(s) were influenced by magic or some inhuman power.
Any sources for this?
What if Loni Kashbrook wanted to be elected Chairwoman/Empress and went on some kind of "women make better leaders than men" or "Karl is too old, and Joseph is too young, we need an experienced-but-vibrant intermediate leader" platform, but otherwise fell in line with CS preferences and policies?
You really think that this would be utterly impossible? That nothing in CS law would allow for it? Based on what?
This isn't to say Karl would be okay with it, or that Joseph wouldn't spread "Loni might be a succubus" rumors to sway the voters, but that just reflects on shady politics, it doesn't mean a political system absolutely can't exist. I'd say we don't know enough about CS law regarding the position of Chairman or Emperor to know whether it is possible to repeal it or not.
eliakon wrote:The NGR is not trying to murder everyone who is not like them.
Nor is the CS, which is why D-Bees get less aggression than supernatural beings.
eliakon wrote:Ergo they are not "xenophobic genocides".
Dimension Book 2 makes it explicitly clear that the CS does not fall under the category of genocidal xenophobes either, they are merely at risk of becoming this in the future. The CS are ranked on the level of the Kreeghor and Splugorth: they are aggressive racial supremists, not genocidal xenophobes. In CS society, humans come first, everyone else comes second. Just as Kreeghor come first in the Transgalactic Emprie and Splugorth/Lords come first in the Splugorth empires.
eliakon wrote:there is a slight difference between "we are fighting a battle to the knife against a foe" and "we are killing everyone who is not like us"
Except the CS is not actually doing that, only isolated elements of the CS are. The CS just doesn't have policies in place to stop that abuse (aside from concerns of wasting ammo) because they have other priorities.
Are we thinking that the NGR goes to extreme lengths to stop their human supremacist robot pilots from killing D-Bees they get in disputes with on the border towns?