K20A2_S wrote:Lenwen wrote:K20A2_S wrote:State why you do also, or why you don't.
As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..
But I like Salmon swim upstream......
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K20A2_S wrote:Lenwen wrote:K20A2_S wrote:State why you do also, or why you don't.
As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..
But I like Salmon swim upstream......
That is one way they are portrayed, however the fact that a rather large percentage of the main book is devoted to the use of the CS forces as player characters indicates that they are written and intended to be the protagonists as well.Lenwen wrote:K20A2_S wrote:State why you do also, or why you don't.
As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..
Jesterzzn wrote:That is one way they are portrayed, however the fact that a rather large percentage of the main book is devoted to the use of the CS forces as player characters indicates that they are written and intended to be the protagonists as well.Lenwen wrote:K20A2_S wrote:State why you do also, or why you don't.
As a GM I use them as thier written and intended to be .. the bad guys ..
I know, no need to apologize.Lenwen wrote:Jesterzzn wrote:I wasn't saying that at all and I'm not even sure how you got that from what I said.Lenwen wrote:aye since these boards are cannon an the books themselves aint
Oh. Well, I guess that explains it. Sorta.just playin witcha lmao
I apologize mate .
Was only jokin witcha .
Lenwen wrote:Further reading of that very page goes on to say flat out (also by Kevin Siembieda himself ) You may not believe it , but Prosek and his high command are more dispicable and duplicitous then you may have ever imagined ..
Now as the Creator of the Coalition States himself has flat out said ...
The CS are meant to be played as Villains ..
Does that mean there are not any good people in the CS armed forces ?
No . There are good folks in the Cs armed forces .. just like thier are good folks in the Chi-Town city fortress itself ..
but flat out the Coalition itself as written is supposed to be viewed as an evil empire .
Least that is what I took from the book Coalition War Campaign's pages ..
dark brandon wrote: What is intended sometimes isn't what sometimes is created. Sometimes someone creates something and they have no idea what they've created.
dark brandon wrote:The reason the CS are one of the most popular "Villains" in rifts
And while there are plenty of examples of CS being evil, there likewise are probably just as many of them being heroic.
The heroic part is just easy for some to come to terms with, even if it wasn't spelled out.
dark brandon wrote:Were they suppose to be villains. I think Yes. Were they written that way...yes and no. There are some examples of them not being completely evil or completely villain, though from the reading I believe it's been underplayed.
Col. McBride Tyson wrote:As far as my standing as an Officer and Gentleman within the CS Military. I must state that my view towards D-Bee's and most other peaceful non-humans tends to not be as severe as some of the other officers within my command. But because of my shinning military record my Senior Officers tend **EDITED FOR SECURITY REASONS** But thats all I will say about that situation even if it is supposed to be off the record.
Col. McBride Tyson L
CS Special Forces Detachment Alpha
Chi-Town
Lenwen wrote:Agreed . But in this case after 11 world books an at the time 3 sourcebooks an Several Dimension books ..
I think KS knew what he had created in the CS an knew how he wanted them to be played ...
As per the CWC book basically defining them as an evil Empire .
I've never witnessed a decent honest to goodness Act of kindness from the CS ...
Never ever seen anything done simply cause they felt it in thier heart this is the best thing to do in this situation .
Again which book is it that they were written as good guys ?
I had thought I had all thier books
dark brandon wrote:
Kevin, even in CWC and "definding them as evil", made note that not everyone in CS is evil, just the leadership. This, to me doesn't say an "evil empire", simply because we would have to say that most nations under the sun therefor are evil empires.
Simply put: Not everyone agrees that what the CS does is Evil or it's a nessissary evil. Kevin does, and I don't argue what the writer says. But I can argue that his view on what is good and evil is limited and too simplistic for the sake of the CS.
Lenwen wrote: I've never witnessed a decent honest to goodness Act of kindness from the CS ...
Never ever seen anything done simply cause they felt it in thier heart this is the best thing to do in this situation .
Again which book is it that they were written as good guys ?
I had thought I had all thier books
dark brandon wrote: Look under the PC section in both the CWC and RMB and RUE.
dark brandon wrote:As for "act of kindness", look under CWC about the ISS who hunted the child killer in the sewers, the story in CS Navy (taking out of Great lake gargoyles), look under the story in the SoT, about the officer who freed the Dbees from the illegally set up camps.
Alejandro wrote:Dude, you just openly dismissed 2 good examples as "acts of self-preservation" when the people doing them were quite obviously putting themselves in danger.
Erin Tarn herself writes about being saved by CS troopers.
What exactly constitutes and act of kindness to you if putting your own life in danger to help others isn't?
Lenwen wrote:I'm sorry for not agree'ing Alejandro ...
But flat out point blank ... CS soilders putting themselves in the line of danger for CS citizens as well as CS holdings is exactly that ...
self preservation ...
Erin Tarn even goes on to state that had the CS known who she an her cyberknight protecter were she would have been taken in an her cyberknight protector would have been slain .. thus they made a hasty retreat ...
Basically the CS slaughtered other Debee's who happen to be attacking erin tarn an friends ... who left before the battle was even really started ..
Thus it holds no merit ..
dark brandon wrote:Lenwen wrote:Agreed . But in this case after 11 world books an at the time 3 sourcebooks an Several Dimension books ..
I think KS knew what he had created in the CS an knew how he wanted them to be played ...
As per the CWC book basically defining them as an evil Empire .
Kevin, even in CWC and "definding them as evil", made note that not everyone in CS is evil, just the leadership. This, to me doesn't say an "evil empire", simply because we would have to say that most nations under the sun therefor are evil empires.
Simply put: Not everyone agrees that what the CS does is Evil or it's a nessissary evil. Kevin does, and I don't argue what the writer says. But I can argue that his view on what is good and evil is limited and too simplistic for the sake of the CS.I've never witnessed a decent honest to goodness Act of kindness from the CS ...
Never ever seen anything done simply cause they felt it in thier heart this is the best thing to do in this situation .
Again which book is it that they were written as good guys ?
I had thought I had all thier books
Look under the PC section in both the CWC and RMB and RUE.
As for "act of kindness", look under CWC about the ISS who hunted the child killer in the sewers, the story in CS Navy (taking out of Great lake gargoyles), look under the story in the SoT, about the officer who freed the Dbees from the illegally set up camps.
dark brandon wrote:Xenogears wrote:dark brandon wrote:Gypsy-Dancer wrote:K20A2_S wrote:You made them hippies like lazloniansGypsy-Dancer wrote:The CS reminds me too much of Nazis. My grandmother told me how bad things were with them around. Always in my groups with my husband, the only CS characters were what you would call "reformed".
No, the characters were warriors; they just weren't Nazis anymore.
CS soldiers were never Nazi.
But they are Nazi like right.
I've explained why the CS are not like nazi's before. I just don't feel like repeating myself again...Sorry.
Vrykolas2k wrote:Who set up and ran the camps?
CS personnel and officers.
Who turned a blind eye to it, and set up its possibility of occuring?
Emperor Prozac and co.
Vrykolas2k wrote:And yet... the writers compare them to nazis...
So either their perceptions are flawed (), or someone else's are (
).
K20A2_S wrote:WERD.dark brandon wrote:Vrykolas2k wrote:Who set up and ran the camps?
CS personnel and officers.
They illegally set up the camps.Who turned a blind eye to it, and set up its possibility of occuring?
Emperor Prozac and co.
On the contrary, it was made very clear that having a camp would be a court-martial. It was why the one general wanted the camp destoried and why he was so angry when it wasn't.
SoT, book 5 I believe.
It's not like Tolkeen didn't have their camps doing similar things............there's a picture of a mage electrucuting CS personal in a cell, then another of a officer beating the face in of a CS SF trooper .........
Tolkeen allied themselves with demons and evil mages, proving what they are.
FoM attacked CS first back in the hay day and started the whole anti mage campaign.........before then the CS had mages in their army.
Lazlo is run by a dragon, sorry but that's always nothign but trouble..........why earth, dragons can go anywhere? b/c they don't respect humanities right to earth that's why.
New Lazlo - Just a bunch of hippies
Jmacq1 wrote:I voted the "Yes because they're humanity's best chance" line.
Let's get one thing straight: I love the Coalition (from an out-of-universe perspective). I love them as antagonists, protagonists (conflicted or otherwise), I love the design work behind them, I love the concept of the Coalition. They almost always figure heavily into my campaigns (though "Coalition campaigns" seem to be the most popular option among my gaming group). I think I could safely say that the Coalition is my favorite single element from the Rifts setting (though there are others that come close, particularly if you count Free Quebec as separate and distinct from the Coalition).
I would certainly never agree with many of their policies in real life and I fully recognize that most of their leadership are villains of the highest order, or scumbags at best. But despite that, I think for the moment the Coalition is more a force for good than evil in the Rifts world. They're right on that borderline, though, and could easily shift into "full on villain" modes pretty quickly.
But the fact is that there are very few "good" organizations in Rifts Earth, and often times ruthlessness is a very viable means of survival in that setting. Does that make it right? No, not always, but I can completely understand how many of the "common folk" would totally see the Coalition as heroic and worthy of loyalty and adoration.
Now, if I actually lived in Rifts Earth I'd probably prefer to live in Lazlo rather than Chi-Town, but again, from an out-of-universe perspective I'm all about the Coalition.
That may well be, but it seems the Coalition supporters are being out voted. Even when you include those who voted in the "Best chance for survival" category. Wonder why that is? Could it be perhaps because the majority of the board (or at least those willing to take the time to vote) agree that the coalition is in fact an evil faction. And that NA would be better off if the current ruling government were taken down?
K20A2_S wrote:
And NA would not be better off with CS being gone. Who's going to control the pecos bandits?
K20A2_S wrote: demons from FoM? Xiticix?........think Lazlo will step up to the plate? yeah right, they didn't even lend a helping hand to Tolkeen or FQ........and they were in the middle of it all(geographically).
K20A2_S wrote:I made a thread about how what people would benefit from the CS being destroyed in NA.............the consensus would be that NA would take a step backwards in teh wrong direction to order.....
Jay05 wrote::lol: That may well be, but it seems the Coalition supporters are being out voted. Even when you include those who voted in the "Best chance for survival" category. Wonder why that is? Could it be perhaps because the majority of the board (or at least those willing to take the time to vote) agree that the coalition is in fact an evil faction. And that NA would be better off if the current ruling government were taken down?
Col. McBride Tyson wrote:Lenwen wrote:It is exactly how Kevin wrote them to be in thier own World Book CWC ... an evil empire an its been refurred to being such in virtually every book that they are written in . No not every single seintient being in the CS is inherently evil but the fact remains that thier leadership are an as such are seen thusly ..
When a CS grunt does something decent like the not killing the magic user but lettin them go they cant get Court-Martialled for it ..
Some one I read on this thread said something like is it evil when a good man lets it happen or something to that effect .. I say yes it is Your just as guilty if you turn a blind eye as the one who pulled the trigger .. wether your being forced to ( directly ordered ) or not .
This is why I consider the Coalition States as being evil ...
You generalizing a populous by its ruling body. How many people and or country's think the United States is Evil and because so think all American's are Evil and or ********??? In my Honest Opinion its not as Black and White as the Pro CS or the Anti CS people make it.
Lenwen wrote:We see ourselves as the Worlds Police ...
The World see's us as meddlers ...
dark brandon wrote:Lenwen wrote:We see ourselves as the Worlds Police ...
The World see's us as meddlers ...
This is a good example of how a nation can be evil, and not see itself as evil.
K20A2_S wrote:Lenwen wrote:
Lazlo was not in the middle of the Tolkeen war nor even close to it geographically ... Lazlo is actually further away from Chi-Town then Tolkeen was ...an even in the complete 100% other direction ...K20A2_S wrote:I made a thread about how what people would benefit from the CS being destroyed in NA.............the consensus would be that NA would take a step backwards in teh wrong direction to order.....
I dont believe that . I believe that for one all the good magic using city/states would band together an create thier own federation or coalition in the absence of the CS . Archie would have taken the majority of North America with relative impunity as well as banding with Free Quebec an creating a New Coalition sepratly in thier section of the N.A. Continent
I meant in the middle geographically when it came to FQ and CS, not Tolkeen..............sorry for the mis-understanding......
Magic city/states banding together?? dude they haven't done it once why would they do it now? the "good" magic states didn't even help TOlkeen(dweomnor, lazlo)...........Lazlo's dragon leader would do the same the Dragon kings did at Tolkeen, just leave and start a new life in another dimension, b/c since we're lesser being in thier eyes, why meddle with humans causing trouble??
Dweomnor threee kings/leaders aren't even human either, so why do they care? they won't...
K20A2_S wrote:Lenwen wrote:An the Dragon leading Lazlo .. Might do what the Dragon Kings did .. then again he Might not ... that debate could go on endlessly ... as you said why meddle with lesser beings .. well the Dragon leader of Lazlo has already meddled in lesser beings lives by creating the city of Lazlo an inviting anyone who wishes to live there .... so that side of your debat is already shown to be false ...
but the Dragon kings did the same, and they still left..............and we all know it's in Dragons nature to be selfish, that's a proven fact, they're all about #1 and not really about ideals or nations.
You give higher supernatural beings too much credit for being "good".......they always end up falling back on their instincts, which is "I'm better than you, so I won't suffer for you"........unlike humans whom are known for their courage, dedication, self sacrifie to help fellow humans. And before you jump on the CS is all but that..........people who bash the CS always bring up only the top dawgs, bur forget the sacrifces the regular grunt soldier goes through in order to make his neighbors place a safer place to live.
K20A2_S wrote: but the Dragon kings did the same, and they still left..............and we all know it's in Dragons nature to be selfish, that's a proven fact, they're all about #1 and not really about ideals or nations.
K20A2_S wrote: You give higher supernatural beings too much credit for being "good".......they always end up falling back on their instincts, which is "I'm better than you, so I won't suffer for you"........unlike humans whom are known for their courage, dedication, self sacrifie to help fellow humans. And before you jump on the CS is all but that..........people who bash the CS always bring up only the top dawgs, bur forget the sacrifces the regular grunt soldier goes through in order to make his neighbors place a safer place to live.
Lenwen wrote:Ya had me agree'ing with you up until the CS jumped into this ..
The Grunt has to do what he is told by a supiorior Officer no questions asked .. if not he gets into huge arse trouble ..
Knowing that to mist a innocent Debee for just being a different race is wrong .. YET
doing it cause its a direct order does not make that person better cuase he was told to do it .. he did it cause of the system he lives in .. kill debees or you face courtmartial an possibly even gettin booted outta the CS totally .. Self preservation makes that Grunt mist those innocent Debees cause he wants to stay in the CS military ...he does not mist those innocent Debees cause those innocent Debees were a threat to the very survival of the People inside the Chi-Town walls or any other city state ... he did it cause he was told to do it its the same thing as him doing it for his own reasons . That makes the CS grunt evil .The AVERAGE CS grunt ..
Just because your boss tells you to push some one off the empire state building does not make you have to do so ..
You have a choice .. you either choose to follow orders ..
Or..
You dont an you make a stand for what you believe in .. if you choose to stand (doing the right thing ) you risk everything you know .. THATS what I call a selfless act
Not well ok the Major told me to get the platoon together an go mist this entire debee village and I Really dont want to but I have to ..
Phalanx wrote:Since the books compare the CS to fascist Germany all the time, so will I. The Nazis who led Germany and those who participated in their atrocities deserved everything they got. The line soldier who was fighting for his country on the battlefield, I have no malice for. The leadership of the CS is rotten and evil to the core. Anyone who commits atrocities for the CS is no better.
Col. McBride Tyson wrote:
Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.
Jmacq1 wrote:That makes three of us:
HHC, 82nd Abn Div, 1997-1999
HHC 2nd Bde, 82nd Abn Div (also known as the 325th AIR), 1999-2000
HHC 2-325 Airborne Infantry Regiment 2000-2001.
Yeah, I served my stint in Fayet-nam. and pounded plenty of pavement on Gruber and Ardennes. Didn't get Jumpmaster qualified but I ended up with 63 jumps on my log.
Col. McBride Tyson wrote:Lenwen wrote:Col. McBride Tyson wrote:
Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.
Aye nuthing like running the entire length of Ardennes an then back on gruber haha
I was 618th Eng bat also in the 80Duecefor a few years then got sapper then Q course an well was moved to Usasoc lol an the rest is history
Did you ever get Jump master qualified ? or anything like dat bro ? bet we could swap stories for HOURS haha .
Never became a Jump Master, Spent to much time in the Box. My Uncle is a Col and an 18A with 3rd SF, so I got to do a lot of stuff with them while I was over in the suck. I had completed Advanced Marksmanship Course way back in 2000 so while I was in the sand pit I usually packed around my SPR, M107 stayed in the Humm usually. I never was much for wasting ammunition. Plus growing up in Montana I was a hunter so it all came naturally to me.
Lenwen wrote:Col. McBride Tyson wrote:Lenwen wrote:Col. McBride Tyson wrote:
Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.
Aye nuthing like running the entire length of Ardennes an then back on gruber haha
I was 618th Eng bat also in the 80Duecefor a few years then got sapper then Q course an well was moved to Usasoc lol an the rest is history
Did you ever get Jump master qualified ? or anything like dat bro ? bet we could swap stories for HOURS haha .
Never became a Jump Master, Spent to much time in the Box. My Uncle is a Col and an 18A with 3rd SF, so I got to do a lot of stuff with them while I was over in the suck. I had completed Advanced Marksmanship Course way back in 2000 so while I was in the sand pit I usually packed around my SPR, M107 stayed in the Humm usually. I never was much for wasting ammunition. Plus growing up in Montana I was a hunter so it all came naturally to me.
Dear lord your from montana LMFAO bro I practically grew up in Montana .. I lived mostly in North Dakota after I turned 16 but Montana is my old stomping grounds haha
Mark Hall wrote:Lenwen wrote:Col. McBride Tyson wrote:Lenwen wrote:Col. McBride Tyson wrote:
Sorry about that, I did not catch your other post regarding what you had said. I am also a Vet, was at Ft Bragg from 2000/2005. 11B Airborne A Company 82nd 1-504 Parachute Infantry Regiment was getting ready to go through Q Course and got FUBAR'd in a Car Wreck.
Aye nuthing like running the entire length of Ardennes an then back on gruber haha
I was 618th Eng bat also in the 80Duecefor a few years then got sapper then Q course an well was moved to Usasoc lol an the rest is history
Did you ever get Jump master qualified ? or anything like dat bro ? bet we could swap stories for HOURS haha .
Never became a Jump Master, Spent to much time in the Box. My Uncle is a Col and an 18A with 3rd SF, so I got to do a lot of stuff with them while I was over in the suck. I had completed Advanced Marksmanship Course way back in 2000 so while I was in the sand pit I usually packed around my SPR, M107 stayed in the Humm usually. I never was much for wasting ammunition. Plus growing up in Montana I was a hunter so it all came naturally to me.
Dear lord your from montana LMFAO bro I practically grew up in Montana .. I lived mostly in North Dakota after I turned 16 but Montana is my old stomping grounds haha
Chorus: "Eagle River?"
Sorry. It's what came to mind.
CS Special Forces wrote:is the cs evil or the ones that issue the orders evil? this has come up in our games almost weekly. the grunt in the trenchs is doing what he or she can to keep thier families alive and protection of thier nation is the only way this is is accomplished. how many grunt,SAMAS pilots or juicers probably said in anger,everything was fine till you d-bee's showed up?i know im making light of this but i believe its true.
CS Special Forces wrote:is the cs evil or the ones that issue the orders evil? this has come up in our games almost weekly. the grunt in the trenchs is doing what he or she can to keep thier families alive and protection of thier nation is the only way this is is accomplished. how many grunt,SAMAS pilots or juicers probably said in anger,everything was fine till you d-bee's showed up?i know im making light of this but i believe its true.
Col. McBride Tyson wrote:To me that sounds like someone saying "Guns kill people." Well so can most everything we come across in our daily lives. People kill people, What ever they use to get the job done is not at fault. Its the person behind the wheel, the person pulling the trigger, the person swinging the baseball bat...ect...ect...
Jesterzzn wrote:So wait, the person that conditions the soldier to follow orders, and then issues orders that might be evil, is himself not evil because he didn't carry out the act?
BS.
Jesterzzn wrote:So wait, the person that conditions the soldier to follow orders, and then issues orders that might be evil, is himself not evil because he didn't carry out the act?
BS.
Lenwen wrote:Jesterzzn wrote:So wait, the person that conditions the soldier to follow orders, and then issues orders that might be evil, is himself not evil because he didn't carry out the act?
BS.
Agreed ...![]()
The Person Issueing the order ...
And the Person carrying out the order ...
Are both evil ...
dark brandon wrote: When in a corporation, you have an obligation to the company. You don't actually carry out the act of say closing a store in a small town that destroys it, someone else does. You don't actually pull any triggers. The lowers do it because it's something they are told to do, and to not do it would bring harm in one form or another to them (being fired). Can you really call someone who is guilty by association evil, because you have to consider that everyone in any nation therefor is evil by default.
Col. McBride Tyson wrote:Lenwen wrote:First off ..
Well said my friend ..
Secondly ... in all honesty If you have to do Evil things just to join an orginization an keep your family safe .... that in itself is knowingly going in with your eyes wide open ..
an so when they issue those orders to kill that little debee child who has obviously threatend the very existance of the Average Chi-Town Citizen hundreds of miles away in thier Fortress city
and you execute the order ....
Thats evil ..
It does not matter if your doing it to safe your own family ...from being booted out or being labled or anything ...
The End does NOT justify the means ... I am sorry but it does not ... Especially in the context you want it to .. ( aka the Coalition ) ....
To Kill the Debee child so that your own family can enter Chi-Town or what ever member city is an act of EVIL all by itself ...
I dont know how else to say that my friend ...
Well said also, but as I was saying. A lot of these line soldiers have no real education. They do not know that the Debee child is harmless. For all they know, that Debee can rip them apart with its bare hands. And thats what has been taught to line soldiers. So in a way, they are brain washed zombies who do not know any better. Of course some are evil and just enjoying killing. I think thats why you see a lot of Special Forces Soldiers look the other way when they are supposed to carry out these orders. First of all Cs SF tend to be well educated, they spend a lot of time in the suck behind enemy lines so they know that a lot of the propaganda the cs puts out is bs and they tend to look the other way. SF are free thinkers