The Life Cycles of Elves(and other long lived races)

[Wise_Owl]

Well, it happened, sooner or later it was bound to; Friend of mine asked for a Rifts campaign, and I decided to agree, despite the gnashing of teeth that results when I look over elements of the system(but hey, that's zombifying a horse...)
So, I'm going to Run Rifts, and have started constucting a host of idea's for it, when a question popped into my head as a result of one of these ideas; In brief, my basic idea would be that during the early part of the Cataclysm, a group of Elves from a fantasy world(not necisarily Palladium Fantasy, not necisarily not...) would appear on Rifts earth, and find a rathr larger grouping of humans. The elves, with their magic, were able to offer protetion to the humans, which slowly created a reciprical relationship, in which the elves functionally serve as a 'nobility' to the humans. Given the average lifespan of 600 years, most of the original elves would still be alive... and here comes the questions;
How do the life stages of an Elf Work? How Long is the Elven Gestation Period? What are their typical Fertility rates? After birth, how long does it take them to reach Physical and/or Sexual Maturity? What physical effects does aging have on them as compared to humans. How long is an elven Generation? If I start iwth a population of say 40 Elves a few years after the Cataclysm, by 101 P.A. how many would their likely be in the community? I'm sure these questions could be broadened into a more generla discussion of longer lives races and their varying life cycles and biologies, were people interested.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My list of age equivlents
humans: 10. 15. 25
elves: 20. 30. 50 (after 50 elves don't age very much outwardly)
Children of the Moon: 15. 21 1/2. 37 1/2

[dark brandon]

Well, it happened, sooner or later it was bound to; Friend of mine asked for a Rifts campaign, and I decided to agree, despite the gnashing of teeth that results when I look over elements of the system(but hey, that's zombifying a horse...)
So, I'm going to Run Rifts, and have started constucting a host of idea's for it, when a question popped into my head as a result of one of these ideas; In brief, my basic idea would be that during the early part of the Cataclysm, a group of Elves from a fantasy world(not necisarily Palladium Fantasy, not necisarily not...) would appear on Rifts earth, and find a rathr larger grouping of humans. The elves, with their magic, were able to offer protetion to the humans, which slowly created a reciprical relationship, in which the elves functionally serve as a 'nobility' to the humans. Given the average lifespan of 600 years, most of the original elves would still be alive... and here comes the questions;
How do the life stages of an Elf Work? How Long is the Elven Gestation Period? What are their typical Fertility rates? After birth, how long does it take them to reach Physical and/or Sexual Maturity? What physical effects does aging have on them as compared to humans. How long is an elven Generation? If I start iwth a population of say 40 Elves a few years after the Cataclysm, by 101 P.A. how many would their likely be in the community? I'm sure these questions could be broadened into a more generla discussion of longer lives races and their varying life cycles and biologies, were people interested.

In Island at the end of the world...IIRC, an NPC elf is "physically/mentally" mature enough to begin traveling with the group of adventuerers at the age of 19. So, keeping it simple, they are the same as humans...but begin to slow down aging at around 25. Perhaps something like aging 1 year every 10 years otherwise physically the effects are pretty much the same. An elven Generation is probably every 400 years.

Since they have a long life span...to keep from overpopulating...I'll just look at Galapagos turtles...for about 200 years...No real reason for the similarity...but...whatever...

So...Once every 2-4 years, they can mate...while they can mate younger...they usually wait till their 40 years old...

So, with 40 elves...300 years...divide by 0....carry the one...total...um...an additionaly 1-200 elves...

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I know in the PF (Second Edition) they mention in the "Age" section (for Character Background) that the age for Elves, Dwarves, and Changelings should be doubled (it's listed as 17-32 for humans, so for these races it would be 34-64). That could indicate that the elves age (at least early in their lives) at about half the rate of humans. I listed that for just a small tidbit of something from the book discussing ages. Though if Dark Brandon is accurate then Island at the Edge of the World would contradict this concept (or indicate if a elf is going out at 19 it has the body of a 10 year old, but I doubt that as it would make physical stats far different than that of a true adult).

As for gestation periods, I remember being told in real life that gestation periods in mammals is related to size. Smaller animals have shorter gestation periods, and as elves aren't that much bigger than humans (tall, but not beyond human tall) their gestation periods would probably be the same (or very close) to humans. That is, of course, if I remember what I heard correctly and the information is correct (though I trust the source that said it, though my memory may be faulty).

Now, I'll add I actually wrote some stuff on the matter myself a while back (what I wrote doesn't stick strictly what I mentioned above). I put my own thoughts into it for flavor and my personal vision. For your personal consideration I'll include the segment dealing with having children and how fast they age. I'll note for the record though that none of this is official and is something I personally did. I hope something I've added has been of help. If not, then my apologies for wasting your time. Please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.



Elves: Children and Aging
Every three months a female elf has a fertile period that lasts only one day. After becoming pregnant, the mother will carry the child for 12 months before giving birth. This causes elven children to be far fewer in numbers than that of most other races. However, due to the naturally longer life spans elves still manage to stay steady in numbers. Elves typically due not suffer from the same desire to reproduce as humans and many of the other races. More often than not, elves are content to simply have one or two children in the hundreds of years they live.

The reasons elves are not bothered by such low children rate was explained by an elf philosopher by the name of B’Garu when he said, “Humans view children as their only chance to live forever. We elves live far beyond such insignificant life spans. This allows us to understand more of ourselves and the universe. In turn, we are not weighed down by such a trivial concept.”

At birth, elves are only slightly smaller than a human child. Elves grow through early childhood much at the same pace as humans. However as they grow, a slight difference can begin to be observed. An elf will not reach puberty until closer to the age of 16 or 18. By the age of 24, an elf will be close to the size of a human sized adult. The Age of Maturity is reached by age 25 for elves. This is the age that an elf is said to reach mental maturity and capable of making decisions outside of the family.

However, an elf does not stop growing until the age of 30. That is when an elf will reach full size for their race. Often, there is no difference between a human and a full grown elf. If a full grown elf that is the same height as a human, typically the elf was a shorter human when reaching the age of 24. By human terms, an elf the age of 30 would appear to merely be in the early twenties. This is the time that elven aging starts to take a more drastic halt in appearance.

At the age of 150, an elf will look to be in the mid-twenties. When reaching 250, an elf will appear to barely be about the age of 30. By the age of 350, an elf will look to be only in the mid-thirties. Even after reaching 450, elves tend to still look to be only in their late thirties. Finally, when reaching 600 and closer to the time of passing, an elf will look only in their mid-forties. In general, elves will die still looking younger than an average human despite living over ten times as long.

[Vrykolas2k]

I don't arbitrarily follow Tolkeen's idea that elves are dying out.
In fact, I've decided that since the mature enough to adventure when they're 19, they can reproduce at about the same age, and that there's no reason their gestation should be longer than a year, or that elven parents would have fewer than 50 offspring per couple.
Or that they'd age significantly until well into their 6th century...
Screw the humans, I'm tired of constant humani-centric games.

[Wise_Owl]

Well there are reasons in basic biology that the idea of Elves having the same reproductive rate as humans is... prohibitive. Amoung other things, think on this, a human generation, on average, is about 25 years(Generation, in biological terms is the time from when a Mother first gives birth, to the time her daughter gives birth, on average). Human lifespan ranges all over the places, but between 75-82 years is 'standard', so rounding a bit, we have 3 Human Generations within a human lifetime, this gives us most of our 'popualtion' statistics. Now if the human lifespan is extended to 600 years with no other considerations(here, I'm using the quoted Average Lifespan... though whether this accounts for death by violence and so forth... well that seems unlikely, but we'll go with it for now), there will be 24 generations within an 'elven' lifespan. I've forgotten the math involved, but an increase of that level would mean the Elven population would EXPLODE, rapidly. Elves, just to maintain any sort of civilization, would have to be one of the most brutally expansionist people in the universe, desperately trying to stay ahead of ever expanding resource needs as their population balloons out of control. It just doesn't seem feasible to me, especially not in the numbers Elves exist within the Palladium Universe.
Doing a direct numerical conversion would put a multiplier at around 8. That would put sexual maturity at between 100 and 120 or so, make each elven generation around 200 years, and strains reality in the other direction a little too much for my taste.
The Best compromise seems to be to assume that Elves age to a certain point, and than maintain that physical age for a significant period of time, but have rather long generations.

[csbioborg]

I don't arbitrarily follow Tolkeen's idea that elves are dying out.
In fact, I've decided that since the mature enough to adventure when they're 19, they can reproduce at about the same age, and that there's no reason their gestation should be longer than a year, or that elven parents would have fewer than 50 offspring per couple.
Or that they'd age significantly until well into their 6th century...
Screw the humans, I'm tired of constant humani-centric games.

my C-12 is what is making the elves die out

[Greyaxe]

Well there are reasons in basic biology that the idea of Elves having the same reproductive rate as humans is... prohibitive. Amoung other things, think on this, a human generation, on average, is about 25 years(Generation, in biological terms is the time from when a Mother first gives birth, to the time her daughter gives birth, on average). Human lifespan ranges all over the places, but between 75-82 years is 'standard', so rounding a bit, we have 3 Human Generations within a human lifetime, this gives us most of our 'popualtion' statistics. Now if the human lifespan is extended to 600 years with no other considerations(here, I'm using the quoted Average Lifespan... though whether this accounts for death by violence and so forth... well that seems unlikely, but we'll go with it for now), there will be 24 generations within an 'elven' lifespan. I've forgotten the math involved, but an increase of that level would mean the Elven population would EXPLODE, rapidly. Elves, just to maintain any sort of civilization, would have to be one of the most brutally expansionist people in the universe, desperately trying to stay ahead of ever expanding resource needs as their population balloons out of control. It just doesn't seem feasible to me, especially not in the numbers Elves exist within the Palladium Universe.
Doing a direct numerical conversion would put a multiplier at around 8. That would put sexual maturity at between 100 and 120 or so, make each elven generation around 200 years, and strains reality in the other direction a little too much for my taste.
The Best compromise seems to be to assume that Elves age to a certain point, and than maintain that physical age for a significant period of time, but have rather long generations.

Elves are not the animals humans are. they only produce offspring after a union of souls. More often a elven couple will have only one offspring, a fact of their declining race. longevity is not a factor. I would add 30- 40 to the community.

[Greyaxe]

Elves are not the animals humans are. they only produce offspring after a union of souls.

Source, please? Elves can't be too different from humans mystically or they would be totally incapable of making use of Tattoo Magic.

Long established Mythos regarding Elves ranging from Tolkien to D&D. Tattoos aslo damage and scar elves, they are not as close as you think. The Oger on the otehr hand....

[Vrykolas2k]

I don't arbitrarily follow Tolkeen's idea that elves are dying out.
In fact, I've decided that since the mature enough to adventure when they're 19, they can reproduce at about the same age, and that there's no reason their gestation should be longer than a year, or that elven parents would have fewer than 50 offspring per couple.
Or that they'd age significantly until well into their 6th century...
Screw the humans, I'm tired of constant humani-centric games.

my C-12 is what is making the elves die out

[dark brandon]

I don't arbitrarily follow Tolkeen's idea that elves are dying out.
In fact, I've decided that since the mature enough to adventure when they're 19, they can reproduce at about the same age, and that there's no reason their gestation should be longer than a year, or that elven parents would have fewer than 50 offspring per couple.
Or that they'd age significantly until well into their 6th century...
Screw the humans, I'm tired of constant humani-centric games.

my C-12 is what is making the elves die out

Awe. come on...that was funny.

[Wise_Owl]

Well there are reasons in basic biology that the idea of Elves having the same reproductive rate as humans is... prohibitive. Amoung other things, think on this, a human generation, on average, is about 25 years(Generation, in biological terms is the time from when a Mother first gives birth, to the time her daughter gives birth, on average). Human lifespan ranges all over the places, but between 75-82 years is 'standard', so rounding a bit, we have 3 Human Generations within a human lifetime, this gives us most of our 'popualtion' statistics. Now if the human lifespan is extended to 600 years with no other considerations(here, I'm using the quoted Average Lifespan... though whether this accounts for death by violence and so forth... well that seems unlikely, but we'll go with it for now), there will be 24 generations within an 'elven' lifespan. I've forgotten the math involved, but an increase of that level would mean the Elven population would EXPLODE, rapidly. Elves, just to maintain any sort of civilization, would have to be one of the most brutally expansionist people in the universe, desperately trying to stay ahead of ever expanding resource needs as their population balloons out of control. It just doesn't seem feasible to me, especially not in the numbers Elves exist within the Palladium Universe.
Doing a direct numerical conversion would put a multiplier at around 8. That would put sexual maturity at between 100 and 120 or so, make each elven generation around 200 years, and strains reality in the other direction a little too much for my taste.
The Best compromise seems to be to assume that Elves age to a certain point, and than maintain that physical age for a significant period of time, but have rather long generations.

Elves are not the animals humans are. they only produce offspring after a union of souls. More often a elven couple will have only one offspring, a fact of their declining race. longevity is not a factor. I would add 30- 40 to the community.

Interesting answer, not one I'm sure gives with me... though it's succinct, so I like it(and it works with my intent, your numbers are a little lower than what I have finally decided to go with, I figured the population will at least double in 3 centuries, given no external factors). There are essential problems with the Elves only producing One Child as well; It's entirely non-sustainable, no species would exist if it doesn't at least have a base-line replenishment. Elves at one point, in order to establish the social order that existed within the Palladium world, must have produced several children over a life-span. More importantly, it doesn't adress the generation question. How long between giving birth to a Daughter, and that Daughter having a child?
The race in Decline issue also, while working well for Tolkeen's mythology, doens't often as well outside it. In LotR the elves are quasi-mystical beings tied into a historical sense of epoch, in which their time diminishes as the time of man increases and they 'leave the world'. They are mythological beings, distinct from a biological entity. Palladium's elves don't appear to be the same. They are diminished by the social nature of their world, by it's history. I suppose one could make up some social and biological reasons for the Elves rate of reproduction to have dropped... not a bad assumption to make.
Still rising questions like; How old before an elf becomes fertile, how long their gestation period, etc. Also doesn't solve a similar dilema for any other long lived race

[Greyaxe]

Well there are reasons in basic biology that the idea of Elves having the same reproductive rate as humans is... prohibitive. Amoung other things, think on this, a human generation, on average, is about 25 years(Generation, in biological terms is the time from when a Mother first gives birth, to the time her daughter gives birth, on average). Human lifespan ranges all over the places, but between 75-82 years is 'standard', so rounding a bit, we have 3 Human Generations within a human lifetime, this gives us most of our 'popualtion' statistics. Now if the human lifespan is extended to 600 years with no other considerations(here, I'm using the quoted Average Lifespan... though whether this accounts for death by violence and so forth... well that seems unlikely, but we'll go with it for now), there will be 24 generations within an 'elven' lifespan. I've forgotten the math involved, but an increase of that level would mean the Elven population would EXPLODE, rapidly. Elves, just to maintain any sort of civilization, would have to be one of the most brutally expansionist people in the universe, desperately trying to stay ahead of ever expanding resource needs as their population balloons out of control. It just doesn't seem feasible to me, especially not in the numbers Elves exist within the Palladium Universe.
Doing a direct numerical conversion would put a multiplier at around 8. That would put sexual maturity at between 100 and 120 or so, make each elven generation around 200 years, and strains reality in the other direction a little too much for my taste.
The Best compromise seems to be to assume that Elves age to a certain point, and than maintain that physical age for a significant period of time, but have rather long generations.

Elves are not the animals humans are. they only produce offspring after a union of souls. More often a elven couple will have only one offspring, a fact of their declining race. longevity is not a factor. I would add 30- 40 to the community.

Interesting answer, not one I'm sure gives with me... though it's succinct, so I like it(and it works with my intent, your numbers are a little lower than what I have finally decided to go with, I figured the population will at least double in 3 centuries, given no external factors). There are essential problems with the Elves only producing One Child as well; It's entirely non-sustainable, no species would exist if it doesn't at least have a base-line replenishment. Elves at one point, in order to establish the social order that existed within the Palladium world, must have produced several children over a life-span. More importantly, it doesn't adress the generation question. How long between giving birth to a Daughter, and that Daughter having a child?
The race in Decline issue also, while working well for Tolkeen's mythology, doens't often as well outside it. In LotR the elves are quasi-mystical beings tied into a historical sense of epoch, in which their time diminishes as the time of man increases and they 'leave the world'. They are mythological beings, distinct from a biological entity. Palladium's elves don't appear to be the same. They are diminished by the social nature of their world, by it's history. I suppose one could make up some social and biological reasons for the Elves rate of reproduction to have dropped... not a bad assumption to make.
Still rising questions like; How old before an elf becomes fertile, how long their gestation period, etc. Also doesn't solve a similar dilema for any other long lived race

Yes the focal of my argument is according to PFRP Elves are in decline. I add a very Tolkienish feel to my Palladium elves as well. They as very long lived beings do not feel the compulsion to reproduce for the purposes of sustaining their race. ( a flaw in thir social structure contributing to their decline) They reproduce to have offspring, for the joy of parenting or to fill a need they have in their life. What I mean by that statement is when elves have matured socially to the point where they feel they are ready to be parents they begin to consider having offspring. They may or may not be married, as this is more of a human concept. Therefore an elf who whises to have offspring may in fact need to search for a mate. This could take decades. (picky, and have a sence of desitny). I agree with you that biologically speaking an elf maid matures relativly quickly, say 30 years of age to reach reproductive maturity. Also very possible for an elf maid, biologically speaking, could have many childern. They just typically dont. As you mentioned as well there are external factors, violence disease etc. Personally I would keep the population low.

[Elthbert]

Well there are reasons in basic biology that the idea of Elves having the same reproductive rate as humans is... prohibitive. Amoung other things, think on this, a human generation, on average, is about 25 years(Generation, in biological terms is the time from when a Mother first gives birth, to the time her daughter gives birth, on average). Human lifespan ranges all over the places, but between 75-82 years is 'standard', so rounding a bit, we have 3 Human Generations within a human lifetime, this gives us most of our 'popualtion' statistics. Now if the human lifespan is extended to 600 years with no other considerations(here, I'm using the quoted Average Lifespan... though whether this accounts for death by violence and so forth... well that seems unlikely, but we'll go with it for now), there will be 24 generations within an 'elven' lifespan. I've forgotten the math involved, but an increase of that level would mean the Elven population would EXPLODE, rapidly. Elves, just to maintain any sort of civilization, would have to be one of the most brutally expansionist people in the universe, desperately trying to stay ahead of ever expanding resource needs as their population balloons out of control. It just doesn't seem feasible to me, especially not in the numbers Elves exist within the Palladium Universe.
Doing a direct numerical conversion would put a multiplier at around 8. That would put sexual maturity at between 100 and 120 or so, make each elven generation around 200 years, and strains reality in the other direction a little too much for my taste.
The Best compromise seems to be to assume that Elves age to a certain point, and than maintain that physical age for a significant period of time, but have rather long generations.

Actually this is the time frame I use.
Elves mature are concidered adults by other elves at about 100 they are physically mature at about 80, and don't settle down to family life until about 120 to 150. Their generations are about 200 years ( elves have "teen pregnancy too).

That said, in most human societies a generation is about 16 years, not 25. for most of history, in most places a pregnant 15 year old was/is the norm. it is post industrial westernism that makes the generations 25 years. In the world of Rifts I expect generations are down to about 15 or 16 years agian, except amongthe upperclass in major powers.

[Nxla666]

My suggestion is just use human life span and birthrate in comparison.

Human life span average is 60 years, elves live 600 which is 10 times the human life span.

Human birthrate is... say 2.5 as an average which would make the average elven birthrate at about 25 in a life time ... I feel sorry for the elf women...

[Library Ogre]

My suggestion is just use human life span and birthrate in comparison.

Human life span average is 60 years, elves live 600 which is 10 times the human life span.

Human birthrate is... say 2.5 as an average which would make the average elven birthrate at about 25 in a life time ... I feel sorry for the elf women...

That's rather backwards thinking on it. It's better to look, instead of at totals, at intervals.

Humans CAN have one child a year, but it puts a lot of wear and tear on the mother. Likewise, they CAN start having children around 15 (earlier is documented, but it's pretty much a given that one is physically fertile by 15). More ideally, they'll manage one every three, or six years, starting at about 18-20. This is a bit more modern than physical technology would suggest, but given the usefulness of magic in farming, and the availability of magical and psychic health care, I put most fantasy worlds closer on par to modern worlds than medieval ones.

If one goes with that, elven women are likely to start having children at around 36-40, and have them every 30-60 years. This still leads to an impressive population; assuming elven women menopause at around 500, you're still looking at the possibility of 7-15 children... but that's the outside range of what's likely and healthy. It's far more likely that elven women, like women for millennia, somewhat control their rate of pregnancy.

[Blight]

I don't arbitrarily follow Tolkeen's idea that elves are dying out.
In fact, I've decided that since the mature enough to adventure when they're 19, they can reproduce at about the same age, and that there's no reason their gestation should be longer than a year, or that elven parents would have fewer than 50 offspring per couple.
Or that they'd age significantly until well into their 6th century...
Screw the humans, I'm tired of constant humani-centric games.

my C-12 is what is making the elves die out

I just spit my iced tea all over my desk