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Zerebus wrote:You can blame this post on my acquisition of Jurassic Fight Club.

Among the episodes, the claim is made that oxygen levels in the Cretaceous/Jurassic Periods of Earth were at around 35% (as opposed to today's 21%). The increased oxygen levels allowed very large creatures (insects, dinosaurs, etc) to move about quickly, grow huge, and generally maintain a metabolism that would be impossible today.

Well, Rifts Earth has seen the return of some of these very large creatures and the introduction of other, alien creatures that are also very large. Ignoring those creatures that are not respirating (by definition, Oxygen breathing), what would/should the oxygen levels of Rifts Earth be so that all these different creatures can survive and thrive in that world, but WITHOUT necessarily boosting levels to the point that humans and modern mammals don't start running around lwith Lance Armstrong-esque super endurance?

Fun fact: 90% of the world's oxygen production happens in the oceans.

Slightly less than what it is today, since there's a new continent.

One thing about dino-swamp is that alot of the dino's have adapted to absorb ppe from the area, making them quasi-creatures of magic. This is most likely to explain their being alive despite being on a planet that can't really handle them.

I think you're thinking about it too much.

That being said:
-The presence of Atlantis caused ocean levels to rise, which means that the size of the ocean is not changed so it's producing as much oxygen as before (barring other factors).
-As mentioned the new old-growth forests would be producing a lot of oxygen.

So it seems that the levels would be higher than they are now.

But there are too many x-factors to say.

We have an influx of new flora and fauna of various and often unknown populations that each has an unknown effect.
Do xiticix breathe oxygen? How much?
With the sheer size of their population, that could be a significant factor.
Same with other species (though the bugs are the most obvious example).

What gasses have come to Rifts Earth through Rifts, in what proportions?
What gasses have left Rifts Earth through Rifts, in what proportions?
What effect do air elementals have, if any, on the composition of the air around them?
How much oxygen do Millenium Trees put out?
Do Ley Lines affect the air quality in any way?
How much pollution do the high-tech vehicles of Rifts Earth produce, and what kind?
Does the orbital debris field reduce the amount of sunlight coming down to Rifts Earth, thereby reducing the growth rate of plants?

Etc.

Zerebus wrote:You can blame this post on my acquisition of Jurassic Fight Club.

Among the episodes, the claim is made that oxygen levels in the Cretaceous/Jurassic Periods of Earth were at around 35% (as opposed to today's 21%).

where the hell did they get that hypothesis? all the recent data i've seen actually shows evidence of a lower amount of Oxygen.

and dinosaurs wouldn't have needed increased oxygen to get big. they had an avian style respitory system, which are many times as efficent as mammallian systems. the distributed airsacs allow one way airflow and are found across the body, giving a much higher surface area.

in terms of size, the main reason they could get that big was biology, not enviroment. they had avian type hollow but strong bones, for example. allowing larger size while reducing mass. they had efficent digestive systems, which enabled them to sustain their bulk effectively. that the most common form of plant were nutrient rich Ferns, and not grass (grass is garbage in terms of nutrients...) certainly helped too.

it's also worth noting that the majority of dinosaur species were the size of sheep or cows. the really big suaropods and theropods are noteworthy, but were rare. (compare if you will the frequency of elephants Vs. antelope...even before human overhunting..)


then again, this is the show that claimed nanotyrannus was a valid species, and gave tyrannosaurs heat vision...neither of which has any evidence for it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think you're thinking about it too much.

Methinks this be the case as well.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think you're thinking about it too much.

That being said:
-The presence of Atlantis caused ocean levels to rise, which means that the size of the ocean is not changed so it's producing as much oxygen as before (barring other factors).
-As mentioned the new old-growth forests would be producing a lot of oxygen.

So it seems that the levels would be higher than they are now.

But there are too many x-factors to say.

We have an influx of new flora and fauna of various and often unknown populations that each has an unknown effect.
Do xiticix breathe oxygen? How much?
With the sheer size of their population, that could be a significant factor.
Same with other species (though the bugs are the most obvious example).

What gasses have come to Rifts Earth through Rifts, in what proportions?
What gasses have left Rifts Earth through Rifts, in what proportions?
What effect do air elementals have, if any, on the composition of the air around them?
How much oxygen do Millenium Trees put out?
Do Ley Lines affect the air quality in any way?
How much pollution do the high-tech vehicles of Rifts Earth produce, and what kind?
Does the orbital debris field reduce the amount of sunlight coming down to Rifts Earth, thereby reducing the growth rate of plants?

Etc.

That says it all.

Probably 95% of the Earth's populace, or greater, is unaware of the significantly higher Oxygen Levels in Earth's Atmosphere in the distant past -and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Kevin is among them.

You're worrying about PA 109 Oxygen Levels when we're still scratching our heads at the "magic" behind Kevin's Nuclear Batteries and Megadamage Overcoats??

except geochemical studies [1] show that the amount of Oxygen in the Mesozoic atmosphere was between 12% and 18%, lower than the 21% of today. (w[1] warning, large dense scholarly paper in .PDF form..)

during the eocene, O2 levels spiked to 28%, but then dropped back down over time to the modern levels.

studies also show a corrolation between increasing oxygen levels and the increasing diversity of placental mammals, leading to hypothesis's that the rising O2 levels were what allowed mammals to overtake the avian biology dinosaurs post K-T.


the claims that the levels were higher in the past have been defunct since the late 90's, and never had much scientific basis. they grew out of attempts to explain the "gigantism" of dinosaurs while using a cold-blooded reptilian biology model, and not the warm blooded avian biology we know they had now. the amber studies were a step in the right direction, but Amber is not an impermiable barrier and being organic, it would continue to have chemical interactions with the trapped air. it also doesn't help that the figure was based on debateable speculations to begin with as the sample showed an increased Co2 content, and because the researchers beleived the Co2 percentage of the atmosphere had not changed at all in millions of years, they assumed trapped bacteria had consumed the oxygen and reverse engineered the percentage.

sadly, as i said, jurassic fight club is garbage in terms of good science. they take species that have no real evidence of existance, like nanotyranus*, and claim it's a valid species, they give dinosaurs abilities there have been no evidence of, like heat vision**, and they create encounters that would be highly unlikely and intentionally rig the fights to be dramatic, instead of accurate.


*nanotyrannus "exists" only as a single skull, and the finder's claim that it represents a whole new species, and not a juvenile Tyrannosaurus rex, which it is morphologically identical to...

**no dinosaur has even exhibited the 'sensor pits' all heat sensing animals have. these leave noticable marks on the bone structure, making it highly unlikely dinosaurs could see heat. they might have had vision that extends into the near infrared and ultraviolet, like some birds do today, but they wouldn't have "thermal vision" like a pit viper does.

sounds like a lot of made-for-the-masses "informative" shows. Unfortunately... Of course there's a lot of good and valid stuff too (I have to be fair afterall), but there's enough that's a stretch, or only speculation, etc, to disappoint me more often than I'd like.

Umm okay I havent really thought about this that much. The way I've run Rifts Earth is that the return of magic and the chaos and all that jazz restored a lot of the forests and natural resources so there is enough oxygen for everybody to live very nicely and happily......

As Thoreau said, "Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!"

It's a good policy on issues like this one. Of course the discussion is fun, but bothering oneself about it in-game would be rather overboard...

In short, good call Rahmota!

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Zerebus wrote:You can blame this post on my acquisition of Jurassic Fight Club.

Among the episodes, the claim is made that oxygen levels in the Cretaceous/Jurassic Periods of Earth were at around 35% (as opposed to today's 21%).

where the hell did they get that hypothesis? all the recent data i've seen actually shows evidence of a lower amount of Oxygen.

and dinosaurs wouldn't have needed increased oxygen to get big. they had an avian style respitory system, which are many times as efficent as mammallian systems. the distributed airsacs allow one way airflow and are found across the body, giving a much higher surface area.

in terms of size, the main reason they could get that big was biology, not enviroment. they had avian type hollow but strong bones, for example. allowing larger size while reducing mass. they had efficent digestive systems, which enabled them to sustain their bulk effectively. that the most common form of plant were nutrient rich Ferns, and not grass (grass is garbage in terms of nutrients...) certainly helped too.

it's also worth noting that the majority of dinosaur species were the size of sheep or cows. the really big suaropods and theropods are noteworthy, but were rare. (compare if you will the frequency of elephants Vs. antelope...even before human overhunting..)


then again, this is the show that claimed nanotyrannus was a valid species, and gave tyrannosaurs heat vision...neither of which has any evidence for it.

It's the giant Bugs that hint towards higher oxy levels, and it would help out dino growth as they'd need less exertion to breath (and yes I did read your posts evidence which you say explains that away, i'm just giving you Other peoples reasonings).

As to how I play it, I always had it so that Oxy levels were Higher (due to an unconnected Rift) in the Dino Swamp region, but this had no real effect on anything down there And the Co2 Levels were higher as well... It was all just fer fun so as to get the PC High (due to Oxy) in one zone, and then they'd move into Oxy depleated, high Co2 regions and get sick...

As to dinos, I'd just say that Even if they needed higher oxygen levels in the past (which Glitterboy pointed as not true), the Magic mojo of the world still effects dinos and turns them into SN strong MD beings, so it just balance out in the end anywho.

Steeler49er wrote:It's the giant Bugs that hint towards higher oxy levels, and it would help out dino growth as they'd need less exertion to breath (and yes I did read your posts evidence which you say explains that away, i'm just giving you Other peoples reasonings).

perhaps, perhaps not. giant bugs had been around for millions of years, since well before the carboniferious. for them to get that big at all even then indicates they had some major biological adaptions for size (ignoring the breathing issues, the mass and strength alone shouldn't have allowed it, and their circulatory system shouldn't have handled it, based on modern arthropod models..)
and it's worth pointing out that the species that survived the K-t extinction tended to be small, and it's their descendants we have around today. the big species, with all the millions of years of adaptions to being big, didn't make it. so any adaptions to different atmospheres and the large size are no longer in the genepool of modern arthropods.

Rahmota wrote:Umm okay I havent really thought about this that much. The way I've run Rifts Earth is that the return of magic and the chaos and all that jazz restored a lot of the forests and natural resources so there is enough oxygen for everybody to live very nicely and happily......

rifts earth probably has a similar percentage of oxygen as today. the reduction of harmful pollutants from the air due ot the widespread use of alternative power sources and the comparitive lack of industry probably means fewer people have breathing issues too..

the time when oxygen levels would be a concern would be Chaos Earth. between volcanic eruptions dumping megatons of toxic chemicals into the air (many of which bond to oxygen), the ashfalls (which would bury plants alive), the widespread fires from the chaos, and everpresent overcast (extended periods of darkness, such as put forward in CE, would result in a mass die off of phytoplankton and land plants...), you'd be looking at a great reduction of oxygen levels. since the game needs to be playable, these levels shouldn't drop too low (or as much as they should), but it should be like living at higher altitudes. people tire easily and have to struggle to breath, even when not exposed to ash or chemicals..

looking at it like that i'm inclined to agree that if pollutants were an issue, the millenium trees would more than have fixed the prob by now.

I'd say that oxygen levels would be around 25-31%, which is significantly higher then the contemporary Earths Oxygen levels. Higher oxygen levels also mean higher chances of violent lightning storms accompanying rain, which ironically is already occurring along the leylines.

we have super technology, what isn't technical

duck-foot wrote:well, possible. but, then you have the evil millinemium tree in germany. thats prob putting out lots of toxins.

But there are only a couple/few corrupt millennium trees on Rifts Earth, and there are a whole lot of normal ones. Also, while I see your reasoning that evil ones put out toxins, I don't think it would actually work like that because while they're evil and corrupting/poisonous trees, they're still trees, and thus either still rely on photosynthesis (and thus producing O2 at the expense of CO2), or if you say that they don't bother w/ photosynthesis (magic), then you'd also have to say that the normal millennium trees also don't put out O2 and remove all the extra CO2 from the tons of volcanoes of the cataclym.

In general, I think the number of powers seeking to clean the air (Millennium Trees, warlocks, NA shamans, etc.) would far outnumber and out power those who maliciously seek to pollute (as opposed to those who incidentally pollute due to the nature of their technology). Combine that with a large decrease in human populations, a corresponding increase in wild land that would naturally work to clean the air and water, and you have a pretty hefty bit of cleaning going on for about 300 years.

Mark Hall wrote:In general, I think the number of powers seeking to clean the air (Millennium Trees, warlocks, NA shamans, etc.) would far outnumber and out power those who maliciously seek to pollute (as opposed to those who incidentally pollute due to the nature of their technology). Combine that with a large decrease in human populations, a corresponding increase in wild land that would naturally work to clean the air and water, and you have a pretty hefty bit of cleaning going on for about 300 years.

Excellent point.

Zerebus wrote:We're the Planeteers! You can be one, too! 'Cause saving our planet is the thing to do!

Our first step is to start a Global Thermonuclear War which kills 90% of the population!

duck-foot wrote:

Crazy Lou wrote:

duck-foot wrote:well, possible. but, then you have the evil millinemium tree in germany. thats prob putting out lots of toxins.

But there are only a couple/few corrupt millennium trees on Rifts Earth, and there are a whole lot of normal ones. Also, while I see your reasoning that evil ones put out toxins, I don't think it would actually work like that because while they're evil and corrupting/poisonous trees, they're still trees, and thus either still rely on photosynthesis (and thus producing O2 at the expense of CO2), or if you say that they don't bother w/ photosynthesis (magic), then you'd also have to say that the normal millennium trees also don't put out O2 and remove all the extra CO2 from the tons of volcanoes of the cataclym.

that may work

Wait... what are you intending as the antecedent of "that?"

duck-foot wrote:

Crazy Lou wrote:

duck-foot wrote:

Crazy Lou wrote:

duck-foot wrote:well, possible. but, then you have the evil millinemium tree in germany. thats prob putting out lots of toxins.

But there are only a couple/few corrupt millennium trees on Rifts Earth, and there are a whole lot of normal ones. Also, while I see your reasoning that evil ones put out toxins, I don't think it would actually work like that because while they're evil and corrupting/poisonous trees, they're still trees, and thus either still rely on photosynthesis (and thus producing O2 at the expense of CO2), or if you say that they don't bother w/ photosynthesis (magic), then you'd also have to say that the normal millennium trees also don't put out O2 and remove all the extra CO2 from the tons of volcanoes of the cataclym.

that may work

Wait... what are you intending as the antecedent of "that?"

the whole prospect that you put forth

!) That because there are more normal millennium trees that the overall polluting influence of the evil ones wouldn't affect the overall atmosphere, or

2) that evil millennium trees, though corrupting in general, don't pollute b/c photosynthesis doesn't work like that, or

3) that because both are magic they don't really deal w/ photosynthesis and don't purify or pollute the air anyway.

Because these are separate thoughts, as they can't all be the case at once. This is what I meant about my confusion w/ the antecedent.

Or are you just saying that you think all of these cases plausible, and regardless of which is better, that the air still isn't polluted by evil millenniums, so it doesn't really matter between the three instances?

The real question is, what's the weather like? Those increased sea levels would've simultaneously reduced Earth's albedo and increased atmospheric humidity, both of which would make Earth more efficient at trapping heat and not letting it go. But on the flipside industrial carbon emissions are virtually nonexistent since almost all intelligent life either lives in nuclear-powered civilizations or has reverted to pre-industrial subistence agriculture, and the decreased human(oid) population probably means that the world's forests have made a major recovery.

Well, civilization has been greatly reduced to a relatively few kingdoms and cities, so the wilderness has had around 250-300 years to restore itself. I believe that it is mentioned in South America that the rain forests were greatly restored, and I haven't seen many factors to cause deforestation. I also haven't seen many nations on Rifts Earth that still use fossil fuels. All seen to use a cleaner, nuclear option. Oxygen levels would likely be higher than today.

twingle93 wrote:Well, civilization has been greatly reduced to a relatively few kingdoms and cities, so the wilderness has had around 250-300 years to restore itself. I believe that it is mentioned in South America that the rain forests were greatly restored, and I haven't seen many factors to cause deforestation. I also haven't seen many nations on Rifts Earth that still use fossil fuels. All seen to use a cleaner, nuclear option. Oxygen levels would likely be higher than today.

The origional main book implies fossile fuels are still used by providing several vehicles with different ranges for Gasoline, electric and nuclear, and considering that mass producing vehicles with gas tanks implies there is gas avaible, I would assume that it is about as common as Chipwell stuff--that is, the dirty, cheep method, but not exsactly common.

Those who can afford nuclear, probablly do for obvious reasons, still I think it would still be safe to say that gasoline is used by several smaller kingdoms, at least enough a market to have NG actually make Gas-powered MD vehicles.

I agree with Nekira.

Also, an operator could convert gasoline engines to use ethanol which pretty much anybody can produce.

all of this presupposses man made carbon emmissions are a signifigant portion of climate change anmd there is no definitive data either within canon or else where to prove that.

All that being said no ones mentioned the fact there are a bunch of open rifts that are going to everywhere and nowhere leaking in Prosek knows what.

csbioborg wrote:all of this presupposses man made carbon emmissions are a signifigant portion of climate change anmd there is no definitive data either within canon or else where to prove that.

All that being said no ones mentioned the fact there are a bunch of open rifts that are going to everywhere and nowhere leaking in Prosek knows what.

Rifts don't leak atmosphere.
See Rifts: Underseas and undersea Rifts.

And please take your global warming denial elsewhere. It doesn't belong here.

csbioborg wrote:all of this presupposses man made carbon emmissions are a signifigant portion of climate change anmd there is no definitive data either within canon or else where to prove that.

Conservapedia's over in that direction dude, not here.