Ward Question...

[AaronCE]

Alright, so we have this box which is warded with uber-Death. Open it and save, or else. My question is this... Say the box is opened using telekinesis. (and yes, the death ward is infliction, not area effect) Does the ward know who's telekinetically molesting the box?

Thanks,

~A

[Probitas]

First off, is the box locked, because if so, I doubt very much telekinesis can pick it open without the player character actually looking into the lock in question, and then rolling a pick locks skill check, same as any lock picker would have to do. It's not just moving the tumblers, it's listening and hearing the sounds made when you succeed. And that normally requires you to put an ear to the lock, or use tactile perception (touch). I don't think TK has developed enough to allow the transfer of the sensation of touch at this point. Don't let hollywood movies fool you, to move something, you would need to know HOW to move it first, which would require an understanding of that specific lock, which could only be learned from experience and/or inspection. Or using TK to burst the lock, using some sort of strength check (mental) vs lock strength.

Second, who would waste time with a death ward without making it AoE too? Try to remember the ward master has probably heard it all before, and using magic to circumvent magic would be on his list of things to protect from. Now, creating an anti-magic zone around the box would effectively prevent any magic from working (assuming no save), and this would do the trick nicely. Just remember the box would activate again after the zone collapses, and if they decided to pick up the box and use it while leaving the zone.....

Also, if the box has death, where were the OTHER wards that must be in the area to guard the area the box is INSIDE?

To the matter at hand, if the ward master in question is an idiot which he seems to be from your example (IQ being a needed stat (12 or higher, so above average) I fail to see how that could occur, but I digress), then he may not be fully cognizant of all the work arounds to his wards. That being the case, it might be possible to open an unlocked box (why ward without locking?) using TK, but opening the box should set it off (the lid is moved in some way). And I think the magic might be able to backtrack along the controlled force being used to zap the psi user. I don't think it's aimed at intent, because accidentally jostling a ward will fire it off too. And I also don't think it requires physical touch, as some wards can harm immaterial/incorporeal creatures as well. So just interacting with the warded object using any means should be enough to fire it off at the person fiddling with it, as I would allow line of sight from the ward to the person, because there is NO way the person could use TK on the box without being present in some fashion and also in line of sight to the box.

Hope that helps. Though Mark may correct this, him being Sorcerer Supreme.

(You could also consider that Psi use is really just an extension of the users faculties, and so therefore anything he does with his mind counts as his mind 'touching' the object in question. Which of course would mean that the death ward hits him square in the bean, for a critical on the grey matter.)

[Veknironth]

Well, there could be many reasons why there wouldn't be an area effect ward on the item. The Diabolist just wanted to kill the person who was tampering with the box, not the entire area. This would be particularly effective if the ward were permanent. Each person who tries to open the thing is zapped.

Now as for the question, I'm going to say it would not set the ward off. Or if it did, the person using TK would not be affected. It's a viable workaround. Now, if you rule that it does affect the person, I have another question. What if a Mind Mage is using Domination on someone's body and opens the box? Does the body take the damage or does the controlling mind? Or both?

-Vek
"Never trust a mind mage."

[Marcethus]

I would rule given the nature of Magic in general that it would affect the TK'er. As it targets the person that is messing with the box regardless of how they mess with it.

As to the Mind Mage Dominating them, I am not familiar with that power and don't have my PF book handy, but it would depend if they used Hypnotic Suggestion to trick them into opening it, I would rule no. IF they used Possession, I would say they would need to save vs something and if they failed they would take half the damage as they are affected by the sudden attack but not as much as if they had been directly affected.

[The Dark Elf]

Firstly u cant aoe a box as it doesnt count IMO as a large stationary object to which aoe are applicable.

If it will unbalance ur game then dont allow it as u will need to stick to ur decision should you need it to work the otherway around.

If it was my game then IMO I would let the PC see for himself, then have it inflict upon him - roll to save.

However, if it was a scenario, for eg. of an AOE inflict ward on a door and he used telekinesis to open it. Unless, the PC's were still in range then it wouldnt affect them.

[Marcethus]

Firstly u cant aoe a box as it doesnt count IMO as a large stationary object to which aoe are applicable.

If it will unbalance ur game then dont allow it as u will need to stick to ur decision should you need it to work the otherway around.

If it was my game then IMO I would let the PC see for himself, then have it inflict upon him - roll to save.

However, if it was a scenario, for eg. of an AOE inflict ward on a door and he used telekinesis to open it. Unless, the PC's were still in range then it wouldnt affect them.

to my understanding you can AOE a box, that when the ward was triggered it would target all in the area of the box not just the one opening it.

[AaronCE]

Thanks all, for the useful feedback.

I suppose it's an aura question. I.e. when someone grabs the box (or a candlestick, or a bowling pin, or the Diabolist's favorite frying pan/jar of jam/etc.), s/he's physically/aurally/psionically/PPE-ically "touching" the item that's warded. How far does the ward's "intelligence" go back? If he uses TK? TK around a corner looking through a mirror? Have your buddy the wizard cast a Magic Portal so you can TK-jiggle it through a wall? Etc.

And if you want to get really wicked. Lasso it with a piece of your twine of iron (or just the normal stuff) and tug it a little. Does the ward "know" who's on the other end of the string? What about a pair of tongs? How "direct" does the contact have to be. Or you could tie it to a rat, scare the rat, rat jiggles the object, takes the fall for your immoral character. (but he was a bad rat, really, honest)

Personally, I'd go with you could get the box open/open the jar of jam/jiggle the statue without the ward going off. If you used some form of remote manipulation. But to actually pick it up, with a hand (even a hand in a blacksmith's glove), you'd get Death'd.

Basically it's the old problem, did the Diabolist ward up the container, or the actual valuable. And if you want what's inside, and actually plan on touching it (and not Death-ing the fence when you try to turn that bauble into dragon coins), you'll have to deal with the ward yourself.

Also, I'd personally rule that if you managed to get said item up and in your greedy paw (say you saved the first time, an there's a half dozen 15th level Death wards), and you put it in a pocket/backpack/etc., every time you moved (and changed the object's spatial coordinates), you'd have to save again. Since it would be "touching" you/your aura.

Anyways, just wanted to see what some good gamers thought. Thanks again, ladies and gentlemen.

~A

[Probitas]

According to info I gleaned concerning possession cases, any attack at the possessing force that would normally damage the physical host affects ONLY the host, which is why death is ONE way to drive out a possessing force, but that's usually the last resort. Consider a host body similar to putting on a pair of gloves. They keep your hands warm when out in the cold, but the gloves still get cold on the outside. Psionic attacks CAN target only the possessor, or similarly targeted magic like banishment, so in the case of the ward, it would depend on the underlying rules of magic when dealing with wards. Do they damage ANYTHING, or only certain things? If anything, then you can rule that BOTH the host and possessor make saves or die. Also, if the host dies but the possessor does not, I do believe there is a form of psychic shock that can ALSO cause death or other mental issues due to the mental link. This mental link that allows remote control (no line of sight) also suggest that mentally interacting with anything makes you subject to anything that object can do or suffer from.

An indirect assault could work, but nothing direct. Knock over the table, box falls down, sets off ward, end of problem.

HOWEVER, does the ward require the a living aura to interact with? That is a tough nut, and one I'm not sure of. Read the description of wards, how they are set up, and the conditions, if any, required to create the whole ward. It may be that wards can ONLY affect living beings. In that case, a fall from a table does NOTHING to the ward, so unless the item(s) fell out of the box, you would still have to touch the box or otherwise move it. One other thing occurs to me as well. While wards do not always have an AOE, they also do not require you to physically 'touch' the ward on the object to set it off, only a part of the warded object itself. So there is yet another case to be made for reaching out and zapping any TK users.

[J. Lionheart]

If the box has the Ward String of Protection from Psionics by Infliction: Death, then the TK user will get fried. If it doesn't have such a string, a TK user would be in the clear, if no AA ward is present. Use "Knowledge" or "Energy," or create your own to represent Psionics, and you're set.

If using magical TK, it would have to be Protection from Magic by Infliction: Death. Otherwise the mage would be clear as well.


As for possession, the possessed person is still alive and doing the action, he's just got somebody else forcing him to do it. Full damage to possessed.

[The Dark Elf]

Firstly u cant aoe a box as it doesnt count IMO as a large stationary object to which aoe are applicable.

If it will unbalance ur game then dont allow it as u will need to stick to ur decision should you need it to work the otherway around.

If it was my game then IMO I would let the PC see for himself, then have it inflict upon him - roll to save.

However, if it was a scenario, for eg. of an AOE inflict ward on a door and he used telekinesis to open it. Unless, the PC's were still in range then it wouldnt affect them.

to my understanding you can AOE a box, that when the ward was triggered it would target all in the area of the box not just the one opening it.

Just says in book that you cant use an aoe ward unless its on a large stationary object. If you box is large and stationary fine. It it contains clothes Id be tempted to name it a wardrobe.

I didnt write the book, I just play the game.

[Marcethus]

Firstly u cant aoe a box as it doesnt count IMO as a large stationary object to which aoe are applicable.

If it will unbalance ur game then dont allow it as u will need to stick to ur decision should you need it to work the otherway around.

If it was my game then IMO I would let the PC see for himself, then have it inflict upon him - roll to save.

However, if it was a scenario, for eg. of an AOE inflict ward on a door and he used telekinesis to open it. Unless, the PC's were still in range then it wouldnt affect them.

to my understanding you can AOE a box, that when the ward was triggered it would target all in the area of the box not just the one opening it.

Just says in book that you cant use an aoe ward unless its on a large stationary object. If you box is large and stationary fine. It it contains clothes Id be tempted to name it a wardrobe.

I didnt write the book, I just play the game.

Its Palladium Fantasy, Its sure as hell not a cardboard box. LOL

[Goliath Strongarm]

The point is, the box isn't something that was being carried around and jostled all the time. Ward box, set box on shelf, walk away. AoE would have been fine (and highly suggested).

BUT....

I'd say that the TK WOULD trigger the wards, because the item is being manipulated. However, since there is noone there to be effected, then the wards go off harmlessly. Unless the diabolist was smart enough to put a permenance ward on, effectively resetting the wards after they go off.

I agree that the Diabolist who warded this was an idiot (or a GM who didn't think it through completely [hey, it happens to all of us at one point or another!] ).

Someone asked why ward a box and not lock it... once upon a time, when I was a player, and had a PC that possessed a less than nice moral character, I would actually ward boxes and chests, then leave them OPEN. And wait for someone to close the lid... hey, ~I~ always got a good laugh. Ever see a bunch of orphans find a box with a bunch of gold, go to close the box and run off, then be petrified with fear? Soooo badly wanting that gold, but also SOOOO terrified of it.. hilarious! Or having "adventurers" close the chests so they can carry away their loot, and suddenly get turned green or blue? *sigh* The good old days.... but I digress. The point is, he may have had his motivations. Hell, how about a box that is so heavily warded that the players will go through days and weeks of effort... to find out that the box is filled with sand? Done that to players when I was a GM....

[Marcethus]

The point is, the box isn't something that was being carried around and jostled all the time. Ward box, set box on shelf, walk away. AoE would have been fine (and highly suggested).

BUT....

I'd say that the TK WOULD trigger the wards, because the item is being manipulated. However, since there is noone there to be effected, then the wards go off harmlessly. Unless the diabolist was smart enough to put a permenance ward on, effectively resetting the wards after they go off.

I agree that the Diabolist who warded this was an idiot (or a GM who didn't think it through completely [hey, it happens to all of us at one point or another!] ).

Someone asked why ward a box and not lock it... once upon a time, when I was a player, and had a PC that possessed a less than nice moral character, I would actually ward boxes and chests, then leave them OPEN. And wait for someone to close the lid... hey, ~I~ always got a good laugh. Ever see a bunch of orphans find a box with a bunch of gold, go to close the box and run off, then be petrified with fear? Soooo badly wanting that gold, but also SOOOO terrified of it.. hilarious! Or having "adventurers" close the chests so they can carry away their loot, and suddenly get turned green or blue? *sigh* The good old days.... but I digress. The point is, he may have had his motivations. Hell, how about a box that is so heavily warded that the players will go through days and weeks of effort... to find out that the box is filled with sand? Done that to players when I was a GM....

[Goliath Strongarm]

The point is, the box isn't something that was being carried around and jostled all the time. Ward box, set box on shelf, walk away. AoE would have been fine (and highly suggested).

BUT....

I'd say that the TK WOULD trigger the wards, because the item is being manipulated. However, since there is noone there to be effected, then the wards go off harmlessly. Unless the diabolist was smart enough to put a permenance ward on, effectively resetting the wards after they go off.

I agree that the Diabolist who warded this was an idiot (or a GM who didn't think it through completely [hey, it happens to all of us at one point or another!] ).

Someone asked why ward a box and not lock it... once upon a time, when I was a player, and had a PC that possessed a less than nice moral character, I would actually ward boxes and chests, then leave them OPEN. And wait for someone to close the lid... hey, ~I~ always got a good laugh. Ever see a bunch of orphans find a box with a bunch of gold, go to close the box and run off, then be petrified with fear? Soooo badly wanting that gold, but also SOOOO terrified of it.. hilarious! Or having "adventurers" close the chests so they can carry away their loot, and suddenly get turned green or blue? *sigh* The good old days.... but I digress. The point is, he may have had his motivations. Hell, how about a box that is so heavily warded that the players will go through days and weeks of effort... to find out that the box is filled with sand? Done that to players when I was a GM....

Angry face for my comments, or because I'm back?

[Marcethus]

The point is, the box isn't something that was being carried around and jostled all the time. Ward box, set box on shelf, walk away. AoE would have been fine (and highly suggested).

BUT....

I'd say that the TK WOULD trigger the wards, because the item is being manipulated. However, since there is noone there to be effected, then the wards go off harmlessly. Unless the diabolist was smart enough to put a permenance ward on, effectively resetting the wards after they go off.

I agree that the Diabolist who warded this was an idiot (or a GM who didn't think it through completely [hey, it happens to all of us at one point or another!] ).

Someone asked why ward a box and not lock it... once upon a time, when I was a player, and had a PC that possessed a less than nice moral character, I would actually ward boxes and chests, then leave them OPEN. And wait for someone to close the lid... hey, ~I~ always got a good laugh. Ever see a bunch of orphans find a box with a bunch of gold, go to close the box and run off, then be petrified with fear? Soooo badly wanting that gold, but also SOOOO terrified of it.. hilarious! Or having "adventurers" close the chests so they can carry away their loot, and suddenly get turned green or blue? *sigh* The good old days.... but I digress. The point is, he may have had his motivations. Hell, how about a box that is so heavily warded that the players will go through days and weeks of effort... to find out that the box is filled with sand? Done that to players when I was a GM....

Angry face for my comments, or because I'm back?

Actually twisted face aka evil ideas as I have done much the same thing to players when I GM. Its always fun to now and then throw your players a curve ball especially when they get greedy and have to know what's in the warded box.

Hell I have had a diabolist ward a chest full of personal, to him, mementos that were utterly worthless except to him. Said Diabolist considered them priceless.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Here is how I would rule this situation.

If the psychic uses Telekinesis upon the box than the ward will activate and the psychic will have to make a saving throw. Compare it to a player touching the box with a sword or a ten foot pole. They are still touching the box, albeit with psychic force.

Now a clever player who knows the box is warded may do something like use telekinesis to fling a dagger or other items at the box. Thus the ward would be set off by a thrown object as opposed to being set off by being touched.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Someone asked why ward a box and not lock it... once upon a time, when I was a player, and had a PC that possessed a less than nice moral character, I would actually ward boxes and chests, then leave them OPEN. And wait for someone to close the lid... hey, ~I~ always got a good laugh. Ever see a bunch of orphans find a box with a bunch of gold, go to close the box and run off, then be petrified with fear? Soooo badly wanting that gold, but also SOOOO terrified of it.. hilarious! Or having "adventurers" close the chests so they can carry away their loot, and suddenly get turned green or blue? *sigh* The good old days.... but I digress. The point is, he may have had his motivations. Hell, how about a box that is so heavily warded that the players will go through days and weeks of effort... to find out that the box is filled with sand? Done that to players when I was a GM....

I HAVE to use at least one of these.. Good stuff..

[sasha]

Hire an orc merc to open box.

[OldGeek]

I generally allow for those sorts of things personally. It's nice letting players use their abilities to work around things.

[Library Ogre]

Don't forget that telekinesis is probably more rare than Diabolism in Palladium Fantasy, so I'd say that the telekinetic could jostle a box without fear of Protection By Infliction wards. He is burning I.S.P. to do so after all, and who knows what other dangers the diabolist has installed wherever the box is located.

I don't really see TK as being more rare than diabolism. 1 in 4 humans, elves, dwarves, kobolds, etc. have some measure of psychic power; probably around 1 in 4 of those is a Physical psychic (I put sensitive powers as being more common). If 1 in 4 of those are capable of TK (remember, this includes the Physical Psychics, the Mind Mages, the minor and major psychics), you're still looking at 1 in 64 people... about 1.5%... being capable of TK.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Don't forget that telekinesis is probably more rare than Diabolism in Palladium Fantasy, so I'd say that the telekinetic could jostle a box without fear of Protection By Infliction wards. He is burning I.S.P. to do so after all, and who knows what other dangers the diabolist has installed wherever the box is located.

I don't really see TK as being more rare than diabolism. 1 in 4 humans, elves, dwarves, kobolds, etc. have some measure of psychic power; probably around 1 in 4 of those is a Physical psychic (I put sensitive powers as being more common). If 1 in 4 of those are capable of TK (remember, this includes the Physical Psychics, the Mind Mages, the minor and major psychics), you're still looking at 1 in 64 people... about 1.5%... being capable of TK.

It still seems like telekinesis is pretty rare, so if I'm a diabolist looking for a pretty generic defense system I'm not going to sweat the 1.5% of the population that might be able to open the box and not trigger it. Agony and Life Drain would be my chosen ward inflictions, but it might vary depending on if I know a particular opponent is after my stash of knowledge.

See, Im the opposite. I'm the guy that focused his thoughts mainly around adventurers, so I would specifically focus on things like TK. That's why I would area effect the heck out of it, and, if I had the materials, I'd slap a power ward and a permenance ward on, just for good measure.

However, depending on the level/financial resources of the game, this is the best way, IMO...

Two ward strings, each being:

infliction+area effect+power+death+power+permenance
1 2 3 4 5 6
I'm going to break these down, by which ward (referenced by number underneath), and why..

1) the debate of protection by infliction vs inflict has been gone over countless times (although, I don't know how long ago the last one was, seeing as I've been gone). IMO, if I used PBI, it would be as soon as someone came into the AoE. INFLICT is simply going to have the ward hit the AoE...

2) hit EVERYONE, including that guy standing off using TK psionic or TK spell...

3) increase the range of the area effect

4) hit'em hard!

5) make that hit'em REALLY hard.....

6) reset the ward phrase, so it kicks back on after these guys are dead and gone

The reason for using TWO of those ward strings is that you're requiring a second saving through, not just the one. So even if they save once, they're going to have to save AGAIN. MUCH more likely to hurt them. And, if they fail both, that's just even better....

[AaronCE]

Wait a tick. You chained two Power wards in the string? Can you do that? And if so, how far can I go? 10x Power wards?

That seems unbalanced. And I like it.

~A

And, fyi, the box in question is out of Arms of Nargash Tor. With Osiris' Tongue inside.

If I remember correctly, the box is warded with multiple Death wards, but once it's open, and the tongue is out, you can easily discard the box. So it's a matter of how to pilfer the tongue without getting zapped repeatedly.

[Smlawrence8]

It it contains clothes Id be tempted to name it a wardrobe.

[OldGeek]

I don't see anything that expressly says "You can't string two power wards in one string" but really... I'm thinking it's one of those things that just sorta goes without saying. Since most other wards don't add on top of each other (two protections from magic won't give double bonuses for example).

A death ward, based on the wording in my second edition book, has a exponential return on it... 1d6 damage per level, each melee for a number of melees equal to your level... direct to hp... so a level one does 1d6 damage (as it lasts 1 melee), but a level 3 does 3d6 each melee for 3 melees (9d6 total), and a 5th level does 25d6 (5d6 each melee for 5 melees).

If you have a fifth level diabolist create a death ward with power on it (and the book says inflict can't be used with area effect btw - and protection by infliction is the only way you'd have it set as a trap... inflict goes off when you activate it. At least by my understanding), that'd be 10d6 damage each melee for 10 melees... so an average of 350 damage direct to hp (35 average per round for ten rounds).

I often wonder if there's a typo in there somewhere? In first edition it just did 2d6 per level and lasted one melee... did they change the wording on it in a later printing for second edition?

Anyway... you could do what Goliath Strongarm suggests, if you enjoy making fresh characters... frequently...

Are you running the adventure in it's original first edition style, or second?

--- edit---
why did they make it so inflict + condition can't be combined with area effect?

Oddly the area effect says you CAN use inflict with it, but inflict says the opposite twice...

[Goliath Strongarm]

Wait a tick. You chained two Power wards in the string? Can you do that? And if so, how far can I go? 10x Power wards?

That seems unbalanced. And I like it.

~A

You're misreading. I'm not doubling the powerwards. Yes, there are two of them in the same string, but they aren't affecting each other.

One is doubling the range of the area effect. The other is doubling the death ward.

IMO, each portion of the string that is to be doubled would need it's own power ward.