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OK! I must had an overdose of Robotech 'cause suddenly I got an inspiration on how to solve the biggest mystery of all: How big was the Masters' Empire. Beleive it or not, I got my answer from Traveller.

I was browsing the Traveller map on wikipedia when I happen to zoom out to the point where I could compare the Third Imperium to the size of the Milky way... the suddenly it hit me (Thrust me a billion stars hitting in the head give one of those headacke... ouch! )

If you read the comic "the Legend of Zor" and most of the reference about him, you realise that he was part of an expedition that went far beyond the border of what was known then as the Tirolian Republic. Since it is implied that the development of fold drive came with the unlocking of the protoculture secret; the question is, how did the Tirolian traveled through the stars? Then, I held the followinf reasoning: What if the Tirolian use a system that was akin to the Jump drive of Traveller? For the goal of this exercise, let assume the Jump distance are the same as Traveller (E.I. Jump 1 = 1 Parsec = 3.26 L.Y.). Also, let assume the time for a jump is the same as in Traveller; meaning 1 week! Since the Tirolian were quite advance, let assume that they had Jump 6 Drive... this would explain why they had an advantage with their Mercantile Republic. Any civilization with Jump 6 drives would have a strong supremacy over a civilization with only a Jump 2,3 or 4. Of course, with time, that advantage was slowly disapearing as other civ started to catch on with them!

Them came the Space Fold Drive... But how doeas it work? Is the range infinite? Let me tell you it will be pretty dull if it is! RPG wise any way! So I came up with this: What if the fold drive increase exponantialy the Jump Drive? Then What if the fold drive could be graded as the Jump Drive? Following this train of thoughts, I came up with this:

The Master Had Fold Drive 4 which gave their ship the following range: 6 exp4 = 1296 Parsec = 4224.96 L.Y.
This is quite an arbitrary number, I know! But I came up with those numbers due to a sentences of the masters saying that the journey to Earth would take them about 20 years... I assume that part was translated in English as 20 Earth Years so I came up with this:

20 years * 52 weeks * 6 Parcecs * 3.26 L.Y. = 20342.4 L.Y. which is an interesting number since it let you do a lot of thing RPG wise.

As I said it is just an inspiration... I just currious of what you think about it.

See Yaa

It's a clever exercise and well executed. There are just too many assumptions being made here for me to be comfortable with it. If it works in your games, then more power to you.

So then how big are you assuming the masters empire is then?

Lord Z wrote:It's a clever exercise and well executed. There are just too many assumptions being made here for me to be comfortable with it. If it works in your games, then more power to you.

As I said, I took the infos in Traveller and worked my way with it... Untill Harmony Gold come up with hard numbers and facts, I think we are all free to extrapolate on the subject. I worked for me but feel free to use it as you see fit.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:So then how big are you assuming the masters empire is then?

Any size you want! But if you want an really good idea, take Tirol as a center point and spread a radius of about 5 000 L.Y. around it. That would be the ideal distance for an immediate reach of any system inside that "border".

Somehow, I wouln't be susprise if the masters divided their empire like the Innersphere of Battletech. Meaning the core being the actual empire under the direct control of the Masters and the surounding stars system being provinces vassals to the Masters.

So, 5000 LY could also be the inner border of the masters who control it with their Bioroids and the next 5000 to 10 000 LY could be under the control of the Zentraedi.

That is my idea, and as I said earlier, until Harmony Gold come up with something, I think we are free to imagine it the way we want it.

Cheer

Its interesting, but the distance jumped in a single fold is often variable, and never meant to be measured in the series. Speed of Plot was ascribed to the speed of the fold drive in ly/hr. If I had to apply a number, I would say that small drives can do 1d6 ly, larger ones do incrementally more. The Milky way is 80-100K LY wide, and they can get across it in a matter of years to decades. That doesn't sound like a 1 LY jump drive as the basis of their technology. That said, the Traveller Imperium is very likely a good mdoel for how the Masters would run their society, right down to the rigid control of technology and control of interstellar communication. The biggest differences is that communications travel faster than ships. This is one of the basic premises of Traveller that does not hold true in Robotech.

MikelAmroni wrote: I would say that small drives can do 1d6 ly, larger ones do incrementally more.

I like this thought. Keeps smaller ships in check and give them a reason to be attached to the larger battle ships in their fleets.

So then how big are you assuming the masters empire is then?

I was thinking of the Masters' Empire less in terms of size than in terms of density. In the comic books, there were many references to the Masters exploiting various worlds in the "Masters' Galaxy." I interpreted this to mean that the Masters ruled their home galaxy with a iron fist, but their influence was considerably lessened in other galaxies where they had just a few business interests. Space Fold technology makes the entire universe accessible, but feasibility of ship production limits and a debatable supply of protoculture both limited how much the Masters' could actually do in the universe. I couldn't imagine more than one official colony and a handful of puppet governments in a backwards galaxy like the Milky Way but thousands of official worlds in their home galaxy. Like a gravitational field, the Masters were everywhere but their power was greatly diminished by distance. It's more of a literary interpretation than anything I can support mathematically, but that is how I was doing it.

I would tend to think of them in an Old Roman, greek fashsion as they appeared in the comics and the sentinels movie. Romans deplomcy until Zor develops Protculture and then a Alexander the great Grease. Where they allowed governments to still rule but they kept a military commander and the primary military force of Bioroids loyal to them to assure the loyalty of the subjects in question.

The Zentreadi were then set up to be their true police force and were scattered throughout the empire. It was not until the Invid became a major threat did the police force became a pure military one. Beginning the slow decline of the Masters Empire.

My info about the Masters' galaxy comes mostly from the Sentinels line put out by Eternity Comics. This information was never considered canon at any point, but it was informative and made for some darn good reads.

Does anyone have an educated guess about how long the Masters' Empire lasted?

Yes! The Robotech Masters are long lived. The reason is that one of the breakthrough in Robotechnology made by Zor was the creation of "perfect" clones of the original.... not just Peoples but also Animals, food stuffs, organes, body parts, and complete new bodies.

As shown in one of the Mastes episode, they seem to grow different part of the body for future replacement. So, in all logic, a clones based society will replace the defective part of the body until the whole body need to be exchanged... so, when that occure, the whole memory of the "original" will be taken and uploaded into the new body. Thus making the Robotech Masters relatively speaking... immortals!

One other reason why the feared manking: As an old and longlived race, they feared the raw energy and anthousiams of the Earth defenders. Not so unliked the decadent Roman Empired feared the prospect of a barbarian Tide.

See Yaa

Lord Z wrote:
Does anyone have an educated guess about how long the Masters' Empire lasted?

500,000 years. thats in the show.

Robot Urchin wrote:A Master's galaxy? I thought they were centered on Tirol, orbiting Fantoma, somewhere in the Southern Cross (or Crux) constellation. That would put them in the Milky Way Galaxy. So if their empire is pan-galactic (vassal worlds in at least 2 galaxies), then why did they not take over the Earth centuries ago?

The information placing Fantoma in the Crux is dialog from The Sentinels OVA (and possibly the McKinney novels), which isn't cannon. In the rewrite, it could be anywhere. I hope the re-write, if it is ever revealed in the next animation release - if there is a next animation, is at least consistent. "We own every living world in the whole milky way and most of Andromeda! ...but oh, we kinda skipped the Earth. Or Bad." doesn't sound right.

Although the information isn't canon any more, we can do a few assumtions base on the show and logic. First, the Milky Way is a pretty huge place all by itself. I think it was mentioned that the SDF-1 was sent in the Fourth Quadrant by Zor and also that it was fairly unexplored by the Masters. The Masters Empire must have had quit a good sized chunck of the Galaxy... Or else, why goes to the logistic nightmare of building a fleet of over 4 millions ships? and that was in addition of thier own fleet! Aside of fighting the Invids and patroling their Masters Empire, the Zentraedi must have been the lance tip of the Masters Exploration Fleet; so they must also be in charge of "expanding" the Masters Empire borders.

Question: Does any one ever made the calculation of how may world resources must have been required just to feed and clothes the Zentraedi???

Cheer

Robot Urchin wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Lord Z wrote:
Does anyone have an educated guess about how long the Masters' Empire lasted?

500,000 years. thats in the show.

Where is that mentioned, in the Master's saga or in the Macross saga? If it's mentioned in the Macross saga, it might be taken from the OSM, where Exedore mentions that the proto-culture (the society) created the Zentraedi 500,000 years ago (Satan's Dolls, ep 31 of Macross OSM). I hope something isn't said later in the series that contradicts it.

The RPG has no upper bounds on the length of the Master's empire, so 500,000 years would fit.

its from the 1st era. the Zent Exodor says it.

For that, I did enjoy the explanation of Peter Walker that 500 000 years was in fact the numbers of revolution of Tirol around Fantoma instead of Fantoma going around Valivar (Tirolian Sun).

Synther wrote:

Untill Harmony Gold come up with hard numbers and facts

I'm fairly sure we, and all our grandkids, will be dead of extreme old age by the time that happens. LOL

Sure it won't be our great grandkids?

I just found out something:

EARTH:

SDF-1 Macross -- Range: 750 Parsec/Jump (estimated) (so 2445 LY/Jump)

Tristar-Class Superdimensional Cruiser -- Range: 115 Parsec/Jump

SDCV Ikazuki-Class Carrier -- Range: 250 Parsec/Jump

SDCL Garfish-Class Light Cruiser -- Range: 70 Parsec/Jump

ZENTRAEDI:

Nupetiet-Vergnitzs-Class Zentraedi Fleet Flagship -- Range: 180 Parsec/Jump

Thuverl-Salan-Class Zentraedi Destroyer -- Range: 140 Parsec/Jump

TIROLIAN:

Nupars-Zytshe-Class Tirolian Fleet Mothership -- Range: 200 Parsec/Jump

Quiltra-Draenitzs-Class Tirolian Transport Ship -- Range 135 Parsec/Jump.

HAYDONITE:

"Omicron"-Class Haydonite Dreadnought -- Range: Unknown

"Fantoma"-Class Haydonite Heavy Cruiser -- Range: Unknown

Question: I understand for the Haydonite but where did they got their datas for the other ships? And how come their is such discrepency between the SDF-1 and the Nupars-Zytshe?

SDF-1 Was Zor's personal ship. It would have all kinds of proto type equipment. but it does seem a bit much compared to the other ships in the Master Empire. I understand if the Master kept the best tech out of the Zents hands and purely for themselves.

Those ranges are very interesting. Where did you happen to find them?

They were among the stats of the different ship found in:

The Shadow Chronicle (Delux Edition)
The Macross Saga
and Southern Cross

Synther wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:SDF-1 Was Zor's personal ship. It would have all kinds of proto type equipment. but it does seem a bit much compared to the other ships in the Master Empire. I understand if the Master kept the best tech out of the Zents hands and purely for themselves.

Really though, the idea of Zor's ship wasn't that it was overpowered. Simply that it was the "holder of the secrets." Beyond that, it was really rather mundane. It's longevity is really in that it wasn't to be destroyed.

Yes but if you knew that you were going to be stealing the Masters entire exsistance, wouldn't you make sure it was capable of out running them? Besides they never really went into what the SDF-1 was capable of doing prehumans. Zor sent the Zentraedi and Master on a wild goose chase having the SDF-f fold several times before finally sending it to earth. I do not think it is as a capable as it shown but if you had the Protoculre matrix directly attached to your ship you may get more power to all systems.

That figures. I still have to read those books. I have them, just busy with other things. Thank you for the information.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Yes but if you knew that you were going to be stealing the Masters entire exsistance, wouldn't you make sure it was capable of out running them? Besides they never really went into what the SDF-1 was capable of doing prehumans. Zor sent the Zentraedi and Master on a wild goose chase having the SDF-f fold several times before finally sending it to earth. I do not think it is as a capable as it shown but if you had the Protoculre matrix directly attached to your ship you may get more power to all systems.

To me, this is just another things that will require to be fix with the publication of the Robotech Starship Book. Think about it, The SDF-1 anable to cross 750 parsec and the Master's Mothership only 200? Even if the SDF-1 was hook on the Protoculture Matrix, this would have been the equivalent of a Supertanker with its own refinery on board. Doesn't add up to me!

The reason I see as why it took so long for the Zentraedi to caugh up with the macross was simply two fold, one Zor knew how the Tirolian navigation system worked so it could have been quite easy for him to deseign a program that would have throw their projection caculus into disarray and two, Zor sent the SDF-1 into an unexplored region of the galaxy so the Zentraedi had to be extra careful went jumping from system to system. Basicaly this could be sum up with two team going through the Amazonian Forest, team a who just run as fast as it can straight forward and a few days later a team B who are in pursuit while mapping the area for their way back... during the conquistador era (so no GPS, No Global Maps and No Satellites).

That's my explanation anyway.

Well it is an extremely ancipated book! I know I'm waiting for it.

avollant wrote:To me, this is just another things that will require to be fix with the publication of the Robotech Starship Book. Think about it, The SDF-1 anable to cross 750 parsec and the Master's Mothership only 200? Even if the SDF-1 was hook on the Protoculture Matrix, this would have been the equivalent of a Supertanker with its own refinery on board. Doesn't add up to me!

The reason I see as why it took so long for the Zentraedi to caugh up with the macross was simply two fold, one Zor knew how the Tirolian navigation system worked so it could have been quite easy for him to deseign a program that would have throw their projection caculus into disarray and two, Zor sent the SDF-1 into an unexplored region of the galaxy so the Zentraedi had to be extra careful went jumping from system to system. Basicaly this could be sum up with two team going through the Amazonian Forest, team a who just run as fast as it can straight forward and a few days later a team B who are in pursuit while mapping the area for their way back... during the conquistador era (so no GPS, No Global Maps and No Satellites).

That's my explanation anyway.

Well I am not sure if it is still cannon, but the Matrix was hidden inside the fold drives. And Zor had the ship make multible folds before sending to earth. I agree that the Zentraedi had to go slow with uncharted space while they explored and mapped it. And I am sure Zor did take advantage of knowing the Masters weakness.

I thought the high number was a bit much myself. But I do not have the Macross Source book yet, so I was going off second hand statment. And I am hoping the space ship book helps to clear it out myself.

Aramanthus wrote:Well it is an extremely ancipated book! I know I'm waiting for it.

Me too, me too.