Orbital Defenses

[Cybermancer]

Rather than continue to derail the Thread about giant metorites, I suggest that anyone wishing to discuss the Orbital communities Earth Containment or the debris ring, move their comments here.

As further discussion fodder, we can discuss means by which containment may be circumvented by either major power blocs or inventive players.

[Cybermancer]

Most pre-Rifts satellites would not be in a retrograde orbit, as that would pointlessly expensive.

Pointlessly expensive today, 300 years from now? Further, 25% of the kil-sats are disguised as orbital debris, it wouldn't be much of a disguise if they were moving the opposite way.

He was discussing PRE-RIFTS satellites. The vast majority of satellites launched prior to the Rifts would not be in retrograde orbits.

Pre-Rifts satellites still exist, and many operate in the 150 mile range (and, arguably, pose a hazard to navigation, even to the orbitals, given the text on page 22). While the debris field must be maintained, it cannot be as broad as you have painted or those pre-Rifts satellites could not pose a danger.

If the satellites are in retrograde orbits that problem largely goes away.

He was discussing PRE-RIFTS satellites. The vast majority of satellites launched prior to the Rifts would not be in retrograde orbits. Furthermore, there is no mention, anywhere in the book of the satellites being in a retrograde orbit. It is mentioned for the debris ring because it is a special circumstance.

Likewise, a retrograde orbit debris field above the 280 mile mark would shred most satellites, as a retrograde orbit is more energy-intensive, and therefore expensive.

While true that a retrograde orbit is more energy intensive and expensive, those facts in no way support your claim of a 280 mile line being necessary for satellite survival. If the satellites moved in the same orbits as the debris, the large majority of relative velocities would be below the threshold necessary to inflict MDC damage on impact.

The 280 mile line is necessary for pre-rift satellite survival and likely the vast majority of surveillance satellites that would be used as part of the Earth containment system.

Furthermore, the debris field being above that point makes it hazardous to those who maintain the field... they are extremely limited in their maneuverability without being holed by debris.

So it's dangerous for folks coming from higher up the gravity well out of a less debris dense environment, but less so for those coming up the gravity well through a more debris dense environment? Methinks, you have things backwards.

They're teleporting past the debris ring so it's not an issue.

Fill? No. Interdict, given their superior technology?

Superior? The Moon republic's tech base is within 50 years of the Three Galaxies, where the Kitanni are nothing special technology-wise. Superior technology is a fragile hook to hang an arguement on.

It's not fragile at all. Fifty years is a very significant technological advantage. The militaries of today would utterly trash the military forces of 1959. It would be a no-contest battle, it would be so one sided.

Why dump it in the ship? That's unnecessary complication. Put it in a giant container with a beacon on it, dump it into space, and then have the Dreadnought pick it up.

What happens when the supply container takes a lethal hit? Can you say high velocity shrapnel?

It will be teleported up and never have to worry about the high velocity shrapnel.

They're not maintaining it if the Dragon Dreadnoughts are blowing them up when they approach. Even without missiles, the Dreadnoughts have a tremendous advanatge over most Orbital ships, and that doesn't include any Kittani spacefighters that may be introduced.

What kittani spacefighters? And all the Orbitals would have to do is send one of their VR space mechs out on a collision course. One hit, one kill. And the Moon colony has got WAY more than 10 space capable VR mechs.

The ones that are described in the Phase world series of books. And those VR drones would never get close to anything Atlantis put into orbit. They're not fast enough.

What hostile force? The ones up in the sky who never do anything, never make hostile moves or gestures, and just keep him down on the planet with all the slaves he wants? Earthspace has nothing he needs, and less he wants.

The ones that could take a surplus shuttle craft and crack open the planet like a rotten egg-shell.

The orbital community has done nothing other than attempt to contain the earth. They have made no further hostile acts and therefore can be discounted as a threat.

[Cybermancer]

I think the orbital community might like the idea of just letting the Earth get annihilated. That means more chill time at the side of the zero-gravity pool instead of having to police a bunch of carbon based life forms!

As callous to the plight of humans as the orbital community has been, this would be one more step to losing their humanity. Callous is one thing but actually accepting or even welcoming genocide (caused by nature or otherwise), that seems to be a bit of a leap.

There may well be those who do feel that way though. I wouldn't think that they'd be a significant percentage however.

[Samored II]

He was discussing PRE-RIFTS satellites. The vast majority of satellites launched prior to the Rifts would not be in retrograde orbits.

Proof? Evidence would suggest otherwise.

BTW you are aware the Coming of the Rifts happens about 300 years from now.

He was discussing PRE-RIFTS satellites. The vast majority of satellites launched prior to the Rifts would not be in retrograde orbits. Furthermore, there is no mention, anywhere in the book of the satellites being in a retrograde orbit. It is mentioned for the debris ring because it is a special circumstance.

And is is mentioned that 25% of the kill-sats are disguised as floating debris. It's not much of a disguise if they're moving the wrong way.

They're teleporting past the debris ring so it's not an issue.

Teleportation doesn't solve the relative velocity problem. If fact it makes it worse by requiring instaneous acceleration to orbital velocities.

It's not fragile at all. Fifty years is a very significant technological advantage. The militaries of today would utterly trash the military forces of 1959. It would be a no-contest battle, it would be so one sided.

The technology gap between the Viet Cong and the US was greater than 50 years. How'd that work out?

It will be teleported up and never have to worry about the high velocity shrapnel.

It will be converted into high velocity shrapnel by the first impact.

The ones that are described in the Phase world series of books.

How about the ones described in the Atlantis books?

And those VR drones would never get close to anything Atlantis put into orbit. They're not fast enough.

They'd have an overwhelming speed advantage from being higher up the gravity well.

The orbital community has done nothing other than attempt to contain the earth. They have made no further hostile acts and therefore can be discounted as a threat.

Splyncryth has never attempted to teleport a spacecraft into orbit either. In fact, it's written in several books that all attempts to reach orbit from the surface have failed. So much so that everyone but one group has given up trying. Hint: that one group, isn't Atlantis.

[Samored II]

There may well be those who do feel that way though. I wouldn't think that they'd be a significant percentage however.

It just takes one with access to an old shuttle.

[Library Ogre]

BTW you are aware the Coming of the Rifts happens about 300 years from now.

Actually, it happens on December 21st, 2098. This fact, too, is in Mutants in Orbit.

EPOCH FAIL!

[Cybermancer]

He was discussing PRE-RIFTS satellites. The vast majority of satellites launched prior to the Rifts would not be in retrograde orbits.

Proof? Evidence would suggest otherwise.

BTW you are aware the Coming of the Rifts happens about 300 years from now.

Do some research. Isreal is one of the few who launch satellites in retrograde orbit. They do so to prevent debris falling on their neighbors. Others do not because of the energy costs involved.

BTW, are you aware that the coming of the Rifts happen in 2098 (89 years from now)? Are you also aware that the current Rifts timeline is about 300 years after that?

He was discussing PRE-RIFTS satellites. The vast majority of satellites launched prior to the Rifts would not be in retrograde orbits. Furthermore, there is no mention, anywhere in the book of the satellites being in a retrograde orbit. It is mentioned for the debris ring because it is a special circumstance.

And is is mentioned that 25% of the kill-sats are disguised as floating debris. It's not much of a disguise if they're moving the wrong way.

There can be debris in space that has nothing to do with the debris ring. So retrograde orbits are not a requirement.

They're teleporting past the debris ring so it's not an issue.

Teleportation doesn't solve the relative velocity problem. If fact it makes it worse by requiring instaneous acceleration to orbital velocities.

It solves it because they're past the debris ring so it ceases to be any sort of a concern.

It's not fragile at all. Fifty years is a very significant technological advantage. The militaries of today would utterly trash the military forces of 1959. It would be a no-contest battle, it would be so one sided.

The technology gap between the Viet Cong and the US was greater than 50 years. How'd that work out?

The Veit Cong were supported by Chinese technology which was not 50 years behind the USA. Furthermore, the USA did not suffer a military defeat. They withdrew due to political pressures back home.

It will be teleported up and never have to worry about the high velocity shrapnel.

It will be converted into high velocity shrapnel by the first impact.

Only if an impact will be made. Further, my statement is in reference to the debris ring so please keep things in context.

The ones that are described in the Phase world series of books.

How about the ones described in the Atlantis books?

They don't need to be reprinted. They appear in the Phaseworld books as part of available Kittani gear. Therefore Atlantis has access to them.

And those VR drones would never get close to anything Atlantis put into orbit. They're not fast enough.

They'd have an overwhelming speed advantage from being higher up the gravity well.

No, they do not.

The orbital community has done nothing other than attempt to contain the earth. They have made no further hostile acts and therefore can be discounted as a threat.

Splyncryth has never attempted to teleport a spacecraft into orbit either. In fact, it's written in several books that all attempts to reach orbit from the surface have failed. So much so that everyone but one group has given up trying. Hint: that one group, isn't Atlantis.

Yes, all attempts have failed. There is no indication that Atlantis has ever tried to make any attempt. This entire paragraph is a non-sequiter for this arguement. There is a difference between being able to but not trying and failing due to not being able to.

[Cybermancer]

There may well be those who do feel that way though. I wouldn't think that they'd be a significant percentage however.

It just takes one with access to an old shuttle.

Which hasn't happened so therefore the orbitals are still a non-threat. Actually, this suggests that no one feels this way because it hasn't happened.

[Cybermancer]

As callous to the plight of humans as the orbital community has been, this would be one more step to losing their humanity.

Aren't they already inhuman. Or by 'humanity' are you refering to their ethical standpoint as opposed to their physiology?

Callous is one thing but actually accepting or even welcoming genocide (caused by nature or otherwise), that seems to be a bit of a leap.

There may well be those who do feel that way though. I wouldn't think that they'd be a significant percentage however.

I don't know... What are they doing in orbit anyhow? Is it because they were put there or is it because if they return to Earth, they themselves might become the target of genocide?

While I was referring to their psychology, in Rifts, the orbitals are primarily human (Outcast Station being the exception). As justicar5 above me has mentioned, they are the descendents of those who were already in orbit at the time of the cataclysm.

The orbitals certainly feel that if they return to the surface of the earth that they will be subject to the same horrors as everyone else. Doubtless there are those that would target them for enslavement, genoicide or conquest.

[Samored II]

Do some research. Isreal is one of the few who launch satellites in retrograde orbit. They do so to prevent debris falling on their neighbors. Others do not because of the energy costs involved.

BTW, are you aware that the coming of the Rifts happen in 2098 (89 years from now)? Are you also aware that the current Rifts timeline is about 300 years after that?

You must really make a killing picking lottery numbers if you know the preferred orbital mechanics of satellites launched 80 years in the future. I should introduce you to a friend of mine.

There can be debris in space that has nothing to do with the debris ring. So retrograde orbits are not a requirement.

Only if the satellite was expected to survive for longer than 30 seconds.

The Veit Cong were supported by Chinese technology which was not 50 years behind the USA. Furthermore, the USA did not suffer a military defeat. They withdrew due to political pressures back home.

Tell that to the folks who fought the way down main street Hue.

Only if an impact will be made. Further, my statement is in reference to the debris ring so please keep things in context.

You first.

The ones that are described in the Phase world series of books.

How about the ones described in the Atlantis books?

They don't need to be reprinted. They appear in the Phaseworld books as part of available Kittani gear. Therefore Atlantis has access to them.

You confuse Splyncryth, an individual, with the Splugoorth, a race. Atlantean Kittani have what's in the Atlantis sourcebooks.

No, they do not.

Physics in general and the Laws of Motion in particular disagree. I'll take Sir Issac.

The orbital community has done nothing other than attempt to contain the earth. They have made no further hostile acts and therefore can be discounted as a threat.

Yes, all attempts have failed. There is no indication that Atlantis has ever tried to make any attempt. This entire paragraph is a non-sequiter for this arguement. There is a difference between being able to but not trying and failing due to not being able to.

Don't forget not trying because of being smart enough to know it can't be done.

[Subjugator]

Crossposted from the other thread:

If it is so easy to fly at the same speed and in the same direction as the debris field, then it is fairly easy to defeat it as a defense.

Also, I'd love for someone to figure out the total mass being discussed at 1g per cubic meter, because it seems to me that the numbers being discussed would add up to a fricking LOT and I'm not sure the orbitals have access to enough material to maintain something like that if it's 100,000+ miles thick.

As I'm seeing it, at 1g per cubic yard, we're looking at 5,451,776kg per cubic mile of space if it is 1g per cubic meter. Now, if it is 1,000 miles thick and it is 20,000,000 miles around, that would put us somewhere well north of a weight greater than that of the earth. I may have performed my calculations incorrectly, but what I find is that the total cubic miles taken up by a hollow sphere 1,000 miles thick and 20,000,000 miles in circular circumference is 127,284,187,371,215,705 cubic miles (rounded). Now, we multiply that by 5,451,776kg and that gives us 693,924,877,889,896,874,613 metric tons of mass to be put into motion at a speed high enough for it to cause mega damage. Also, that has to be *maintained*.

To contrast, the mass of the earth is 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 metric tons. That's about nine times more than the number above. So - do you think that the orbitals have sufficient mass to throw one ninth of the earth's mass into a great big spinning cheese grater and maintain it at that level? Again, that only assumes a 1,000 mile thickness. If it's greater, the numbers *skyrocket*.

So Samored, you are wrong.

/Sub

[cornholioprime]

[Jumping In]

Those of you who are trying to apply real world Physics and real world, intuitive Common Sense to the CODF, are wasting your time.

It is sustained, maintained, and kept impenetrable by copious quantities of Handwavium, and could never work in real life.

Unless we were talking about some advanced civilization capable of building things like Dyson Spheres, that is, to which something like a CODF would be childs-play.

[/Jumping Out]

[Subjugator]

[Jumping In]

Those of you who are trying to apply real world Physics and real world, intuitive Common Sense to the CODF, are wasting your time.

It is sustained, maintained, and kept impenetrable by copious quantities of Handwavium, and could never work in real life.

Unless we were talking about some advanced civilization capable of building things like Dyson Spheres, that is, to which something like a CODF would be childs-play.

[/Jumping Out]

Jump right back in Corn - I don't have a problem with the idea of a debris field. I have a problem with a debris field as it has been described by others.

/Sub

[Library Ogre]

[Jumping In]

Those of you who are trying to apply real world Physics and real world, intuitive Common Sense to the CODF, are wasting your time.

It is sustained, maintained, and kept impenetrable by copious quantities of Handwavium, and could never work in real life.

Unless we were talking about some advanced civilization capable of building things like Dyson Spheres, that is, to which something like a CODF would be childs-play.

[/Jumping Out]

I don't have a particular problem with the idea of a debris field; it's not a bad containment solution for the orbitals who, in spite of no-doubt massive recycling efforts, will have things they need to get rid of; bodies they want lost, if nothing else (though I imagine they usually recycle those, too). Tossing it into LEO is, for them, a good solution. Trying to get it much higher than the lowest of Earth orbits, however, runs into the difficulty of having enough junk to sustain a giant field that blocks off the Earth.

Furthermore, containment of traditional aerospace forces could work as laid out. According to the bit about surveillance satellites, they have all of the Earth under constant observation; it would be impossible to get a sizable object into space using traditional launch methods; even contragravity drives take enough time that lunar orbit forces can be scrambled and move to intercept, just in case they're part of the 10% who make it through the shredders. The "Splugorth Method", however, circumvents that by crossing 3600 miles instantly... you go from sea level to beyond LEO in less than 15 seconds, and the Splugorth have the capability (due to their huge numbers of overlord summoners, kittani, and kydian troops) to send up multiple ships simultaneously... then follow them with a second wave only a few seconds later. The only component of cost in a teleportation circle is faerie wings, and the Splugorth also have the capability to do all this with just one faerie... chop its wings off, regenerate them (Restoration would, I believe, do he job; if not, bio-wizardry), and repeat... to say nothing of the scores of faeries they have access to. The surveillance system is useless in this case, because the activity that leads up to it (large ship, people milling around) is indistinguishable from normal Splugorth practice.

[Balabanto]

Plus, it's great for parties. If you timed the sequences just right, you could get great fireworks displays by blowing up your solid and liquid waste. Everybody wins!

[The Beast]

Personally I go with Rifts Earth being in a pocket dimmension that skips 90% of anything coming from Rifts Earth into another part of the Megaverse. The orbital satillites clean up the rest.

[rat_bastard]

The irony of someone defending the CODF and then appealing to "Physics in general and the Laws of Motion in particular" is quite amusing.

The CODF is, frankly, as cornholio said, supported by handwavium. The energy costs of replenishing debris in a low retrograde orbit and the concurrent material costs, as Subbie pointed out, are simply too high to be accepted with any sense of verisimilitude. Debris with a low period retrograde orbit would simply not have enough orbital stability to stay up long.

The preferred orbital mechanics of satellites are not likely to change over the next 80 years because the masses of the Earth, Sun, and Moon are not likely to change with any significance.

Yeah like you know what your talking about...

[Library Ogre]

The irony of someone defending the CODF and then appealing to "Physics in general and the Laws of Motion in particular" is quite amusing.

The CODF is, frankly, as cornholio said, supported by handwavium. The energy costs of replenishing debris in a low retrograde orbit and the concurrent material costs, as Subbie pointed out, are simply too high to be accepted with any sense of verisimilitude. Debris with a low period retrograde orbit would simply not have enough orbital stability to stay up long.

The preferred orbital mechanics of satellites are not likely to change over the next 80 years because the masses of the Earth, Sun, and Moon are not likely to change with any significance.

Yeah like you know what your talking about...

He doesn't even have a disintegration ray.