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PB does not necessarily refer to human attractiveness. Some animals are quite beautiful. Also, you have to consider that wolves by nature can be quite charming, which is what PB is used to determine the bonus to. Not all characters you play in Palladium Fantasy are human.

Being a Wolfen player, allow me to say...

Looking at the Human Race in PF 2nd Edition:
1) It says their PB is 3D6, that's the same as Wolfen!
2) Is that just for reactions from other humans or human-like races?
3) It's pretty hard to imagine a Wolfen woman reacting the same way to a guy with no fur that she just met as a guy that more closely resembled her own species.
4) Now you're catching on.
5) The rule is called common sense This isn't D&D, we don't need a chart for everything!

TrumbachD wrote:looking at the Wolfen Race in PF 2nd Edition:
1) It says their PB is 3d6, that's the same as human!
2) Is that just for reactions from other wolfen or canine races?
3) It's pretty hard to imagine a Human Woman reacting the same way to a guy with a canine head that she just met as she would to a guy that more closely resembled her own species.
4) for that matter a wolfen woman probably wouldn't find a non Canine guy very attractive either, right?
5) shouldn't there be some rule to reflect this?

3) pretty is pretty and all races will react to it. It is not being sexually attractive, but just 'looking good' to the eye. Sexual Attractiveness is in part appearance but there are other cues to it. Xenophilia is an acquired mental imbalance.

Thou, the uglier races would attack the prettier one 1st cause they offend the ugly race by being pretty. (being sexually attractive involves more the looking pretty)

5) It is left to the player to play this.

I'd say the same thing. The same with most fantasy genres... something can be beautiful or pleasant to look at without being sexually attractive

Otherwise there would be PB rules that they only effect the opposite sex as well.

I've always kind of figured it as a matter of preference. Palladium is a very prejudiced world, so the interactions reflect that. For instance, a human woman is not likely to fall for a wolfen male, no matter what he looks like. (Though it actually did happen once in one of my campaigns! Bestiality anyone?) I think it's just a matter of the characters preferences, and use PB to judge the reactions of people based on that!

This is why the GM can ignore certain rules in certain instances as he or she sees fit.

Wolves seducing people has been a constant theme in literature and folk tales, so I see no reason why the PB would not be played according to the standard rules.

I think your thinking about this a little too mechanically. Their just stats, they don't mean much, and just because they have the same stat as a human doesn't mean that they have the same physical qualities at all. A human would look at the wolfen and think they looked like a brute and the wolfen would look at the human and think they look hairless and ugly. However, the opposite sex of their race would find them in attractive according to whatever standard the stat represents.

Since when is PB all about sex appeal?

Personally I've ignored the pb rating entirely in the games I've gmed over the years, be it Rifts, ATB or PF and replaced it with a "charisma" style rating that reflects a persons overall likability & strength/quality/depth of personality as it is something a bit easier to define and part of what makes a lot of people so "beautiful/charming/alluring" (I also usually let people decide their charisma rating depending on how they intend to rp their chars personality, with it subject to gm modification if I, or the majority of the players feel the char is being rp'd with a vastly higher or lower charisma then the number accurately reflects.)

In which case, it's perfectly possible for a Wolfen, or just about any other intelligent creature to have a charisma that can equal a human, and possibly surpass it.

Really p.b it's an arbitrary value since not everyone finds the same appearance physically attractive (A thin short and very feminine human is likely considered "beautiful" by many humans who would consider her to be pb 16-20, but to those who are only attracted to tall muscular warrior type gals, they likely view the pb as perhaps the opposite. (7-12?)

What is considered "beautiful" will also likely vary greatly depending on culture as well, with some tribal groups in Yin Sloth likely finding gals without tattoo's and bone piercings through their ears & nose to be rather bland and/or repulsive).

Like the cliched saying goes "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and the one nebulous attribute one would find very difficult to pin a number on.

From a player perspective it also makes it rather difficult to come up with a char look/description if one is going with "by the book" straight die rolls and gets the quite possible (50% chance) roll of 9 or less on 3d6. If one is attempting to play a attractive bard, swashbuckler or noble, the concept falls apart rather quickly if you get a 6 or 7 on the p.b roll.

Just my 2 cents on the attribute and how it would apply.

Some dogs can be hot - what about Juliette from the Dogtanian series!

Max™ wrote:M.A. is charisma and charm, P.B. is attractiveness/poise/sex appeal..

Ah yes, I'd forgotten. In the games I've done M.A was used as a representation of ones wit/intuition and gave bonuses to perception/awareness. Granted charisma and charm can come from being quick witted, but not every one with a fast wit and good intuition is very likable.

dragonschyld wrote:I've always taken P.B to be a measurement of beauty by artistic merits, ie symetry and poise.

This nailed it on the head (the first two posters where a bit more robust in their explanation, but this sums it all up nicely.

+1 on the Palladium Book being filled with furries. Can't say I blame 'em. I make my dog wear a dress at all times just to eliminate the potential of temptation LOL

Silveressa wrote:Personally I've ignored the pb rating entirely in the games I've gmed over the years, be it Rifts, ATB or PF and replaced it with a "charisma" style rating that reflects a persons overall likability & strength/quality/depth of personality as it is something a bit easier to define and part of what makes a lot of people so "beautiful/charming/alluring" (I also usually let people decide their charisma rating depending on how they intend to rp their chars personality, with it subject to gm modification if I, or the majority of the players feel the char is being rp'd with a vastly higher or lower charisma then the number accurately reflects.)

While this has it's realm of reason no doubt, I wouldn't be so quick to over look the value of appearances. There is a difference between "Does this person look good", and "Am I Physically attracted to this person", there is a natural level for preference, but most people can agree that a a person is or is not in the realm of attractive. If I have a big boiling wart on my face, it will honestly be hard for me to attract any ladies then the guy who is in good shape with greased hair, even if they like clean hair (which i have, right over that big pustiliant wart). Let's just hope my M.A is enough to win someone over to look past that over time and RP

A good example to think of is look at the worlds ugliest dog competition and then a standard dog show. You probably don't want to get tender with either animal, but you would probably be able to see the difference of a good looking dog like a german shepherd and one of those hairless dogs with funky teeth and the tongue that never seems to stay in its mouth.

Aaryq wrote:+1 on the Palladium Book being filled with furries. Can't say I blame 'em. I make my dog wear a dress at all times just to eliminate the potential of temptation LOL

Lol, that reminds me of a player in one of my old campaigns that was in a very "special" relationship with her wolf familiar, did you happen to have played a human wizard called Vespa a year or two back?

Sounds like you have a rather odd group of gamers Reminds me of one of the most legendary characters I've seen played. Tried to seduce a fox (he was a very very stupid coyle). Didn't end well . . .

Cinos wrote:Sounds like you have a rather odd group of gamers

Check out this thread viewtopic.php?f=7&t=108389
The stuff I posted there I've seen happen in games I've either gm'ed or played in, often with hilarious results.

In regards to the wizard Vespa, she took the skill "breed dogs" a bit literally, (and became a source of infrequent amusement among the group) although in the chars background she was raised by her human mother and her Kankoren husband so it kinda made sense. (the chars real father having died from a bandit raid on her village when she was little)

Sorry nope, not me.

TrumbachD wrote:looking at the Wolfen Race in PF 2nd Edition:
1) It says their PB is 3d6, that's the same as human!
2) Is that just for reactions from other wolfen or canine races?
3) It's pretty hard to imagine a Human Woman reacting the same way to a guy with a canine head that she just met as she would to a guy that more closely resembled her own species.
4) for that matter a wolfen woman probably wouldn't find a non Canine guy very attractive either, right?
5) shouldn't there be some rule to reflect this?

There's a discussion of Physical Beauty and nonhuman races on page 7 of Aliens Unlimited, Revised. The gist of it is that P.B. indicates how aesthetically pleasing a creature is to humans. It does not necessarily indicate sexual attractiveness, just whether or not a normal person would find the character's appearance pleasant.

jade von delioch wrote:I think your thinking about this a little too mechanically. Their just stats, they don't mean much, and just because they have the same stat as a human doesn't mean that they have the same physical qualities at all. A human would look at the wolfen and think they looked like a brute and the wolfen would look at the human and think they look hairless and ugly. However, the opposite sex of their race would find them in attractive according to whatever standard the stat represents.

Reminds me of the end of Planet of the Apes (original) when Chuck tries to kiss the female chimp (zira?) and she cringes telling him "Its just that your so damn ugly."

ZaharaPhi wrote:The number can be the same. Perspective is another story.

A human looking at a wolfen with a high PB may notice things such as... his coat is shiny and straight, there are few to no mats in it. His big wolfen teeth are straight etc. Much like they would judge a horse and his quality by the look of him.

A human looking at a wolfen with a low PB may notice thing such as... he's got different colored uneven patches of fur, yellowed teeth, matted fur, and a ragged tail.

At no point is either of the examples a matter of attraction. But it is the overall natural physical appearance of the character.

If this is true however, then all people should have the same PB roll, if it's all a perspective of that races thoughts on appearance, for orcs that their muscles are purely toned or the way their nose turns upward sharply enough, or the size of their tusks, etc.

Apollyon7 wrote:EDIT: Semi-related question about wolfen appearances: Do they all have the typical wolf-like looks as far as fur and facial structure, or are their some with poodle-style fur, or mop-esque (ala Shaggy Dog), or fine fur like a pitbull or rottweiler?

They are fairly the same in terms of fur types if I recall, but a few colorization specific to regions / parentage (one tribe known for it's gold / blond furs, Sea something, can't recall. I think the Ice-Eyes where known for rougher / shaggier fur types, but might just be the picture they had.

TrumbachD wrote:looking at the Wolfen Race in PF 2nd Edition:
1) It says their PB is 3d6, that's the same as human!
2) Is that just for reactions from other wolfen or canine races?
3) It's pretty hard to imagine a Human Woman reacting the same way to a guy with a canine head that she just met as she would to a guy that more closely resembled her own species.
4) for that matter a wolfen woman probably wouldn't find a non Canine guy very attractive either, right?
5) shouldn't there be some rule to reflect this?

P.B. in Palladium Games isn't based on "How cute or sexually attractive a Human would find them," but rather it is an indirect indicator of how much Charm/Impression/Awe/Horror/Disgust that creature generates when interacted with by anybody else.

It is more of a Game Tool than a standard of raw physical beauty.

You might (and I say "might" because I don't know how or if most GMs use Beauty/Awe Factor as much as they might use Ugliness/Horror Factor) be just as temporarily distracted or unnerved or put at a disadvantage in a confrontation going up against Zandragal the Dragon-Goddess (P.B. 35+ in dragon form IIRC) as you might against Mictla the Demon Lord (P.B. 1 IIRC).

Likewise, you as a character might enjoy similar (skill) advantages interacting with NPCs, even if you are a Bearman Goddess of Beauty with a P.B. 30 and the NPC you're facing is a Goblin with no amorous or sexual interest towards you whatsoever.

TrumbachD wrote:looking at the Wolfen Race in PF 2nd Edition:
1) It says their PB is 3d6, that's the same as human!
2) Is that just for reactions from other wolfen or canine races?
3) It's pretty hard to imagine a Human Woman reacting the same way to a guy with a canine head that she just met as she would to a guy that more closely resembled her own species.
4) for that matter a wolfen woman probably wouldn't find a non Canine guy very attractive either, right?
5) shouldn't there be some rule to reflect this?

Because the human population of Palladium are all furries and their standards are completely warped

Or possibly because unlike orcs and goblins (who run the gamut from plain-janes through to butt-ugly), it's possible for wolfen to look all stately and dignified and such. A wolfen's face is always gonna be too obviously canine for a typical person to think "Wow that's hot and I wanna kiss it", but they could have enough grace and dignity for people to use words like "regal" or "handsome" to describe them.

thurak wrote:

TrumbachD wrote:looking at the Wolfen Race in PF 2nd Edition:
1) It says their PB is 3d6, that's the same as human!
2) Is that just for reactions from other wolfen or canine races?
3) It's pretty hard to imagine a Human Woman reacting the same way to a guy with a canine head that she just met as she would to a guy that more closely resembled her own species.
4) for that matter a wolfen woman probably wouldn't find a non Canine guy very attractive either, right?
5) shouldn't there be some rule to reflect this?

Seems like Palladium Fantasy is a world full of furry-lovers.

I resemble that remark!!! Remember; Furry-Folk are beautiful to many people!
My own PF Wizard married a Kankoran maiden whose name translates as "Reflected-Fire" for the lovely flame-colored fur she has. Even though Reflected-Fire has the Kankoran dislike of Magic, she and my Wizard hit it off before he ever mentioned his Magic. The two have fought Undead together and explored ruins together and are now a happy couple. Are there issues? Of course there are, every couple has issues, but how the couple resolves those issues is what makes or breaks a relationship.

Good Gaming, GaredBattlespike

PB is really just a measure of how attractive your character is regardless of racial or sexual bias. To me it is really meant to be used in conjunction with your MA to get an accurate assessment of How people react to your char.
For example, having a high PB with a low MA results in a classic good looking bully (Think Gaston from Disney's "Beauty and the Beast"), while a low PB combined with a high MA makes for the likable monster (again from Disney, Quasimodo in "The Hunchback of Notre Dame").
As for PB relating to sex appeal, let's face it... ALL animals, from the lowliest of rodents to the most intelligent of humans, are attracted to beauty. There are even some species of gorilla that will refuse to mate with particular females because of some physical flaw in appearance. What it boils down to is beauty being in the eye of the beholder... Do I think that a wolf is a beautiful creature? Absolutely! Am I sexually attracted to it's beauty? Um, let me think NO about that for a sec... Use a little common sense and remember to have fun playing the game.