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Do you guys think that there would even be a chance or that perhaps Las Vagas DID survive the comming of the Rifts and if so how do you guys think it changed if at all or how do you see it if it did survive ?

La Vegas is in ruins (canon from New West or Arzno, I think) and probably deeply guarded or watched by Black Market agents as Area 51 isn't far from there.

I don't have arzno so in my game it is a rough and rumble town right out of the old west with lots of gambling hookers, and chop shops in the casinos

No.

How the heck would a city in the middle of a desert survive the total collapse of all infastructure?

No one would be able to feed it or provide it with water.

No chance to survive whatsoever.

I'd say between the loss of the technological infrastructure supporting it, and the bad karma likely to attract entities and other monsters...No...
There's probably ghosts and the occasional zombie wandering around half-buried casinos and the broken hidy-holes of eccentric millionaire residents...And black market scouts digging up the rest...

Agree with Nek and taalismn. Towns are founded and survive based on natural resources. Today's Las Vegas is an anomoly. It grew into its 21st century state precisely because few others lived there and a certain "industry" was allowed to make it's own rules.

There's no reason for it to survive the Coming of Rifts. Though it would make for an interesting ghost town or Fade Town.

It had to survive to become the city of Lost Vegas, with the death of 'The King' they're looking for a new hero to pick up the mantle of 'The King'!


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:It had to survive to become the city of Lost Vegas, with the death of 'The King' they're looking for a new hero to pick up the mantle of 'The King'!

Daniel Stoker

Guess I'll grab my sword and my guitar and start heading off across the wasteland!

Vegas is still a tourist trap on rifts earth . . .



and by trap I mean place where people are placed in cages to be eaten. Vampires have taken over and often place the rumor that there is a stock pile of pre-rifts artifacts just waiting to be picked up by the next up and coming adventurer

Incriptus wrote:Vegas is still a tourist trap on rifts earth . . .



and by trap I mean place where people are placed in cages to be eaten. Vampires have taken over and often place the rumor that there is a stock pile of pre-rifts artifacts just waiting to be picked up by the next up and coming adventurer

Who do they feed on in the middle of the vast wasteland waiting for adventures to come by?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Incriptus wrote:Vegas is still a tourist trap on rifts earth . . .



and by trap I mean place where people are placed in cages to be eaten. Vampires have taken over and often place the rumor that there is a stock pile of pre-rifts artifacts just waiting to be picked up by the next up and coming adventurer

Who do they feed on in the middle of the vast wasteland waiting for adventures to come by?

tourists. duh!

Native Americans

New Idea. A group of characters from a less educated region, hear about the legendary pyramid of Vegas, a place of magic and riches!

a) Nope, long gone and disolved just a big trip for nothing
b) The structure is damaged by still stands more or less, nothing to be found
c) The structure has collapsed, but it hasn't been fully looted. Nothing of value outside of pre-rifts artifacts
d) The structure stands, in all of its glory. The pyrimid was intentionally built on a ley line nexus point, and is inhabited by people who may or may not be freindly
e) The original structure is gone, but it was built on the site of a ley line nexus point. It has been rebuilt by a dimensional entity, who uses it has a transdimensional gambling resort.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Who do they feed on in the middle of the vast wasteland waiting for adventures to come by?

Probably the same way the vampires in mexico do it
if you don't like that, how about they go out and hunt but suplement with the traps
if you don't like that, how about they get them from the same endless supply of humans the CS uses to recruit its millitary from

Try having some fun some time

Well as has been mentioned in canon Las Vegas is a ruined wasteland. However that doesnt mean we can't change it or that it might not be able to sruvive for a while in reality.

There is lake mead not far away, the Las Vegas Wash and Lake Las Vegas which with water conservation techniques and some serious re investment of infrastructure could with the power being generated from Hoover Dam keep a smaller population alive in some manner. Especialy if we postulate golden age technology being available which would increase the ability to provide for the population. Though things might not be as glitzy and glamourous. Although there are quite a few game ideas. Like say a few of the egyptian artifacts at the sands are really real and powerful. Or the Pyramid is a ley line point like has been mentioned. Or who knows what.

In my games Vegas still exists and is still a power base with Area 51 and Nellis not too far away it is a company town controlled and owned from Nellis. As there is no "The Black Market" all in caps. there are some various gangs, mafias, and powers who use the name. not to mention just bunches of peoepl who band together to provide those goods and services that may or may not be legally available in a given area.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:How the heck would a city in the middle of a desert survive the total collapse of all infastructure?

No one would be able to feed it or provide it with water.

No chance to survive whatsoever.

I could agree with this if the comming of the Rifts happened in 2000-2012 perhaps ..

But considering that Las Vagas currently does not need anything other then new merchandise every so often .. thier a totally self sufficient city as it is right now as much as any other american city is currently self sufficent as well ..

And that is not even talking about the possible advances from the year's between 2009-2098 .. when the rifts come (what year was it again I think 2098 might be wrong )

But you get what I am saying.

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:How the heck would a city in the middle of a desert survive the total collapse of all infastructure?

No one would be able to feed it or provide it with water.

No chance to survive whatsoever.

I could agree with this if the comming of the Rifts happened in 2000-2012 perhaps ..

But considering that Las Vagas currently does not need anything other then new merchandise every so often .. thier a totally self sufficient city as it is right now as much as any other american city is currently self sufficent as well ..

And that is not even talking about the possible advances from the year's between 2009-2098 .. when the rifts come (what year was it again I think 2098 might be wrong )

But you get what I am saying.

And it also says plainly in the book that the apoclypse wiped out all infastructure whatsoever.

So whatever advancements they had made up to 2098 is gone. Period.

Seriously. If much more geologically stable cities like Philidelphia and Cleaveland are gone, Las Vegas has no chance to survive whatsoever. None.

Sure a GM could Fiat it that it survived, if they want to use it, but don't pretend it would happen in any realistic fashion.

street level reclaimed by desert in the first hundred years.

Low level buildings under 5 stories submerged in second hundred and high-rise hotels being ripped by natural disasters and general disrepair.

by the start of the PA calender, it is a shell of what it was at best

by 109, if you don't know where to look on a map with scanning equipment...you would walk right over most of it.

Now Reno on the other hand is a hot bed of activity and poised to take down the Coalition and Prosek's regime.

Munchkin Slappin GM wrote:The ruins of Vegas probably support a group of Blackwinged Monstermen considering that all would be left is the skyscrapers.

Good point! I double that!

Ironically, i dont have my copy of New West with me because i happen to be vacationing in Las Vegas at the moment.
But i believe canon says that its nothing but ruins that are inhabited by a few monsters, and some Brodkil gangs use it as a base. Then it goes on about Area 51/Groom Lake without mentioning Las Vegas any more.
Anyway, back to gambling and cheap drinks!!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/fe ... Vegas.html

Check this link- the storm drains are homeless refuges... next step ninja turtles lose there shells at the casinos live here.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I assume that even with the golden age tech the city would not survive as a huge population center... though it might harbor a few hundred to a thousand people if they can find a way to grow food and pipe in water.

I could see enough structures surviving but the blowing sand would devour the city so you would be reduced to the underground tunnels and the tallest buildings (which by the golden age would probably be many more and much bigger) and the Luxor pyramid would have been rebuilt as an MDC glass structure and would be the town greenhouse.

Stormchild wrote:

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:Ironically, i dont have my copy of New West with me because i happen to be vacationing in Las Vegas at the moment.
But i believe canon says that its nothing but ruins that are inhabited by a few monsters, and some Brodkil gangs use it as a base. Then it goes on about Area 51/Groom Lake without mentioning Las Vegas any more.
Anyway, back to gambling and cheap drinks!!

If you look real close, you can see my house from there... I don't live too far from the strip

oh there it is. Nice roof.

Thinyser wrote:http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2651937/The-people-living-in-drains-below-Las-Vegas.html

Check this link- the storm drains are homeless refuges... next step ninja turtles lose there shells at the casinos live here.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I assume that even with the golden age tech the city would not survive as a huge population center... though it might harbor a few hundred to a thousand people if they can find a way to grow food and pipe in water.

I could see enough structures surviving but the blowing sand would devour the city so you would be reduced to the underground tunnels and the tallest buildings (which by the golden age would probably be many more and much bigger) and the Luxor pyramid would have been rebuilt as an MDC glass structure and would be the town greenhouse.

huh... they must be in different drains than the ones i'm thinking. the ones i've seen, well, let me put it this way: when you get anything heavier than a tiny little sprinkle of rain in Las Vegas (said tiny little sprinkle being defined as "you're still drying off faster than you're getting wet"), those storm drains get a lot of water running through them.

If only magic were real, people could live anywhere . . .

Incriptus wrote:If only magic were real, people could live anywhere . . .

being technically possible dosn't make it very likely.

Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Don't get me wrong (To everyone who supports the idea on this thread), i'm not saying it's wrong if you as a GM want to do something with the Las Vegas location.

But Rifts is a post-apocalyptic wasteland with occasional cities having sprouted up here and there to push back the wilderness at heart. There are still millions of square miles of viable, ariable land people can settle in without going to the rediculous trouble of trying to make Las Vegas habitable and economical. There is no logical reason for anyone with the power to do so to bother when there are littearlly acres and acres of land that no one has clamed and need to do nothing but walk in and build something

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Large amount of unclaimed land that would be completely dependent upon them for life?

It has its attractions.

Note: per p22 of New West, Las Vegas did not survive.

Just as an aside about Las Vegas. Before it became famous and huge for it's gambling and mega resorts it was a railroad town. It was a stop on the way for locomotives to stock back up on water, and before that it was a Mormon settlement and before that it was a very important stop for the southern Paiute Indian tribes. That is actually how it got it's name, "Las Vegas" means "The Meadows" which it was given because it had fair amounts of water and naturally occurring springs that existed up until the 50's when over pumping of the local water supplies from the underground aquifers which supplied the spring led to them not being able to continue natural flow. According to modern scientists, if all pumping of water from the aquifers stopped they would replenish themselves and the springs would return in 200-300 years, which means for Rifts possibilities there is a good supply of water there capable of supporting thousands of people.

Edit: None of this takes away from the canon that nothing in Vegas survived the coming of the rifts, just that there would be a reason for people to have settled there recently, and also as an important trade route into the southern California region.

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Large amount of unclaimed land that would be completely dependent upon them for life?

It has its attractions.

Okay. I'll actually grant that. I could see a cabal of evil wizards of various stripes and classes forming a city in the desert.

The real question is: why would anyone want to stay there? what do they offer the peons?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Large amount of unclaimed land that would be completely dependent upon them for life?

It has its attractions.

Okay. I'll actually grant that. I could see a cabal of evil wizards of various stripes and classes forming a city in the desert.

The real question is: why would anyone want to stay there? what do they offer the peons?

Allong those lines it could be a haven for vampires if they could pull off the same stunt and have control over the water and raise a herd of people to harvest.

Though i like it better as a "Madhavenesq" ghost town with survivors on the outskirts.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Large amount of unclaimed land that would be completely dependent upon them for life?

It has its attractions.

Okay. I'll actually grant that. I could see a cabal of evil wizards of various stripes and classes forming a city in the desert.

The real question is: why would anyone want to stay there? what do they offer the peons?

Shelter. Protection. A place to trade and grow food. The possibility that one of their children will become one of the Mage Lords of the city

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Large amount of unclaimed land that would be completely dependent upon them for life?

It has its attractions.

Okay. I'll actually grant that. I could see a cabal of evil wizards of various stripes and classes forming a city in the desert.

The real question is: why would anyone want to stay there? what do they offer the peons?

Shelter. Protection. A place to trade and grow food. The possibility that one of their children will become one of the Mage Lords of the city

So...same stuff they'd get just about anywhere else that isn't a desert.

That might be why someone born there would stay: scared to leave when they're safe here.

None of that provide any motivation to move out there in the middle of nowhere in the firstplace.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Large amount of unclaimed land that would be completely dependent upon them for life?

It has its attractions.

Okay. I'll actually grant that. I could see a cabal of evil wizards of various stripes and classes forming a city in the desert.

The real question is: why would anyone want to stay there? what do they offer the peons?

Shelter. Protection. A place to trade and grow food. The possibility that one of their children will become one of the Mage Lords of the city

So...same stuff they'd get just about anywhere else that isn't a desert.

That might be why someone born there would stay: scared to leave when they're safe here.

None of that provide any motivation to move out there in the middle of nowhere in the firstplace.

Depends. Are you from a place that lacks protection? Or is the shelter better where they're at? Water more regular? Zero chance at advancement in yours or your child's lifetime?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Sure, some group of super powerful mages could get togeather and enchant some kinda giant water-making magical device in the middle of nowhere...

But why would they want to? what possible reason could motivate them that's not just "GM Fiat".

Large amount of unclaimed land that would be completely dependent upon them for life?

It has its attractions.

Okay. I'll actually grant that. I could see a cabal of evil wizards of various stripes and classes forming a city in the desert.

The real question is: why would anyone want to stay there? what do they offer the peons?

Shelter. Protection. A place to trade and grow food. The possibility that one of their children will become one of the Mage Lords of the city

So...same stuff they'd get just about anywhere else that isn't a desert.

That might be why someone born there would stay: scared to leave when they're safe here.

None of that provide any motivation to move out there in the middle of nowhere in the firstplace.

Except that it is "in the middle of nowhere", say the original founders of the location used to live in chi-town during the first battle with the Federation of Magic, they would have good reason not to want to be there, or the Tolkeen invasion, or Nxla's appearance. Or any other major event the list of which is huge. The isolation is a bonus, you know there is water and land that you can irrigate and make livable, surrounded by mountains within 50 miles in all directions except to the southwest (natural barrier), but it isn't common knowledge and there is no reason for anyone to want to travel there. Plus you have hundreds of miles of desert surrounding you to provide more of a buffer against hostile foes and monsters.

Or someone went there on an expedition to find some ancient pre-rifts ruins of a treasure filled city, and upon getting there they discover how nice it is etc. The reasons and possibilities are just like everything else in rifts, limited only by your imagination.

The Idea of Vegas surviving or being reestablished appeals highly to me. Pit fighting, Gambling, Brothels a veratible Sin-or-ramma!

Saitou Hajime wrote:The Idea of Vegas surviving or being reestablished appeals highly to me. Pit fighting, Gambling, Brothels a veratible Sin-or-ramma!

I think this is actually one of my biggest problems with Rifts: The world went to hell, so everyone wants to rebuild the same thing at the same old place.

Sure, Pit Fighting, Gambling, brothels and Sin-o-rama you can have anywhere in rifts. There's absolutely no reason for them to take the trouble to do all that in the middle of the desert, when you consider that there's no way for people to travel.

That kind of thing needs a very fluid and mobile population--which you simply are not going to get in Rifts. it's impossible.

You can have your Sin City, but don't the problems with building it, and actually getting enough people to come to a place in the middle of the desert, in a world where there are demons and monsters waiting to kill you along the way, not strike you as something that would kill the city even if someone tried?