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Posted: **Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:49 pm**

If it has living parts in it from once being human, I would say yes. The MD construct thing applies to HP damage from bullets and blades, I would think, but magic should bypass the armor. I would think it would, anyway.

Posted: **Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:59 pm**

palladium terminology project 2.0 wrote:Impervium, n.
An Alloy of unknown origin and composition present in all Palladium Megaverse Cyborgs. Theories abound as to exactly how the Armour functions, but the current leading Theory, as set forth by Rogue Scholar Kevin Siembieda, is that the Armour, in concert with a Cyborg Chassis, temporarily transforms the Cyborg's Organic Internal Hit Point Values into M.D.C. However the Armour's inner workings perform, one thing is clear:
Impervium renders the Cyborg's Organic, S.D.C. Components COMPLETELY immune to any and all Damaging Effects that normally bypass other forms of armour, at least until the 'Borg's Main Body MDC is entirely depleted.
To date, no known Psionic, Technological, or Magical means can bypass this Barrier.

Posted: **Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:38 am**

Well they have mainly bionic organs right, and even a bionic spine, they have artifical skin, it seems to me, from the discription they are left with their brian and maybe their genitals and not much else I would rule them a construct and not let it work. THey are 99% machine now after all.

Posted: **Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:48 am**

Well, here's another, similiar spell with a slightly more sticky issue: Mental Blast

RUE, page 47 wrote:Combat Cyborgs/Full Conversion 'Borgs do enjoy a +5 bonus to save vs possession, +3 bonus to save vs magic, and are impervious to psionic Bio-Manipulation, Telemechanics (all), See Aura, and any attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points (is considered a Mega-Damage being now).

Of course, since there is a human mind inside that machine body, the Combat Cyborg is still vulnerable to psionic and magic mind attacks, mind control, Empathic Transmission, Telepathy (mind reading), Hypnotic Suggestion, illusions and any psionic power or magic spell that affects the mind

Mental Blast does damage straight to Hit Points. The Borg does have a flesh and blood brain. Mental Blast is probably one of the best examples of a "magic mind attack".

So, how does this spell affect a borg?

Posted: **Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:02 pm**

I would still use the house rule of the human parts being vulnerable, whether official according to Palladium or not.

Posted: **Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:11 pm**

why not use the mechanoids as an example. their brains are encased in a md houseing and then there is a hp/sdc stat given for them as well.

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:59 am**

Really, about the only thing that should be meat on a full conversion borg is the brain... and even that's debatable. Everything else can and should be replaced with cybernetics.

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:57 pm**

Munchkin Slappin GM wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Really, about the only thing that should be meat on a full conversion borg is the brain... and even that's debatable. Everything else can and should be replaced with cybernetics.

The book states that the brain and a bit of the spine and sometimes the face are the only things left. So there should be a hit-point score on a borg, atleast thats what I'm thinking.

No.
If borgs had HP ratings for their brains and/or spinal cord, that would give them 1-2 HP each with no PE score. Meaning that they would die constantly and easily.
Ram one with an SDC car, you kill it.
Hit one with a phase beamer, you kill it.
Drop one off a cliff or down a pit-trap or hole, you kill it.
Pick one up and chuck it 20', you kill it.
Hit one with a 20-40 MD explosion, you kill it.
Hit one with certain spells, you kill it.
Hit one with certain psionic powers, you kill it.

Borgs would die like flies, making them totally and completely cost ineffective. Nobody would make them, because you'd be paying millions of dollars just so the person can die the first time they tick off a psychic or mage, or take any significant physical impact.
Nobody would do it- it just wouldn't be worth it.

Which is why it's probably a good thing that Borgs are officially MDC creatures.

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:58 pm**

finn69 wrote:why not use the mechanoids as an example. their brains are encased in a md houseing and then there is a hp/sdc stat given for them as well.

Those aren't just brains- those are actual bodies.
Their "bodies" are more like cybernetic suits of power armor (or bots).

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:51 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Munchkin Slappin GM wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Really, about the only thing that should be meat on a full conversion borg is the brain... and even that's debatable. Everything else can and should be replaced with cybernetics.

The book states that the brain and a bit of the spine and sometimes the face are the only things left. So there should be a hit-point score on a borg, atleast thats what I'm thinking.

No.
If borgs had HP ratings for their brains and/or spinal cord, that would give them 1-2 HP each with no PE score. Meaning that they would die constantly and easily.
Ram one with an SDC car, you kill it.
Hit one with a phase beamer, you kill it.
Drop one off a cliff or down a pit-trap or hole, you kill it.
Pick one up and chuck it 20', you kill it.
Hit one with a 20-40 MD explosion, you kill it.
Hit one with certain spells, you kill it.
Hit one with certain psionic powers, you kill it.

Borgs would die like flies, making them totally and completely cost ineffective. Nobody would make them, because you'd be paying millions of dollars just so the person can die the first time they tick off a psychic or mage, or take any significant physical impact.
Nobody would do it- it just wouldn't be worth it.

Which is why it's probably a good thing that Borgs are officially MDC creatures.

Well, let's consider if you gave them the same Hit Points as a normal character - 3D6 [PE] + 1D6 x level - what would then make them any more vulnerable than a normal person - your list

Hit one with a phase beamer, you kill it.

Hit one with certain spells, you kill it.
Hit one with certain psionic powers, you kill it.

Aside from those highlighted, ALL of these rely on the impact through MDC Armor rules, correct? So, give Borgs and exception to these - say, because they have the ability to install impact dampeners and such - and you negate any "easy kill" from these sources.

For the exceptions, based upon what they do/how they work, I feel they should pose such a threat to a borg. Given the description of the Borg, I see no reason why they shouldn't? If you want to argue that it's their machine nature, then I'll counter that even the Machine People, who are MORE machine than them, are affected by these powers. IF you say it's so they don't get killed as easily, well, just as "easy" as anyone else, BU(T, also consider they likely have a better chance of escaping said situations than a "normal" person. They have flesh-and-blood components by design - ignoring that aspect of them does them a disservice - you might as well make them full robots.

in short, I don't think the Impact rules should be applied to Borgs - they have the opportunity to be engineered to protect against such. Honestly, I don't think it was ever the suggestion that such rules WOULD be applied to the Borg. But, in regards to Phase Beamers, and Magic and Psychic attacks that go directly to HP AND can go through armor, can you give a reasoned response to explain why it shouldn't?

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:56 pm**

Malakai wrote:Well, let's consider if you gave them the same Hit Points as a normal character - 3D6 [PE] + 1D6 x level -

If you do that, then you are saying that a human brain has the same durability as the entire human body in general.
And you do this in the name of realism or consistency...?

Aside from those highlighted, ALL of these rely on the impact through MDC Armor rules, correct? So, give Borgs and exception to these - say, because they have the ability to install impact dampeners and such - and you negate any "easy kill" from these sources.

Of just give them "damage dampeners" that diverts all incoming damage to their MDC body, of you want to pull gizmos out of nowhere.

For the exceptions, based upon what they do/how they work, I feel they should pose such a threat to a borg. Given the description of the Borg, I see no reason why they shouldn't?

No reason based on the description that a 20 mph car wreck won't kill them.
Or a nick from a phase beamer.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

You can make up all sorts of patches to explain why these things wouldn't affect them, but if you're going to go through that trouble, why not just make up an explanation why that other stuff doesn't affect them?

But, in regards to Phase Beamers, and Magic and Psychic attacks that go directly to HP AND can go through armor, can you give a reasoned response to explain why it shouldn't?

Because either borgs drop like flies (and from stuff like Bio-Manipulation: Pain), or you go to absurd lengths to protect them (like giving a brain the full HP/SDC of an actual human).

Neither of these makes much sense, especially since there are other MDC creatures out there with SDC parts (Fury Beetles), so the precedent is established that anything with enough MDC counts as an MDC creature, in spite of a few weaker components.

Posted: **Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:04 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Malakai wrote:Well, let's consider if you gave them the same Hit Points as a normal character - 3D6 [PE] + 1D6 x level -

If you do that, then you are saying that a human brain has the same durability as the entire human body in general.
And you do this in the name of realism or consistency...?

Consistency - it could be argued that since there is significantly less tissue, there is significantly less tissue to effect (for area effects) and that such tissue is, by it's nature (either in regards ot itself or in regards to the capabilities of the effect) more difficult to harm. Examples: Larger characters are affected moreso by Phase beams, as there is more for the beam to affect - a borg would have the opposite effect. Death-bolt might target all of the body's internal organs - without them, it becomes much less effective, etc.

Aside from those highlighted, ALL of these rely on the impact through MDC Armor rules, correct? So, give Borgs and exception to these - say, because they have the ability to install impact dampeners and such - and you negate any "easy kill" from these sources.

Of just give them "damage dampeners" that diverts all incoming damage to their MDC body, of you want to pull gizmos out of nowhere.

I am giving a plausible, in-game reason to stop the foolishness you are suggesting - such as a 20 mph crash in an sdc vehicle killing a borg.

For the exceptions, based upon what they do/how they work, I feel they should pose such a threat to a borg. Given the description of the Borg, I see no reason why they shouldn't?

No reason based on the description that a 20 mph car wreck won't kill them.
Or a nick from a phase beamer.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

You can make up all sorts of patches to explain why these things wouldn't affect them, but if you're going to go through that trouble, why not just make up an explanation why that other stuff doesn't affect them?

All sorts of patches?
1 - give them Hit-Points, because they're needed, even given the current rules.
2 - give explanation for immunity to silly attempts to kill them

That's all the patches I've come up with.

But, in regards to Phase Beamers, and Magic and Psychic attacks that go directly to HP AND can go through armor, can you give a reasoned response to explain why it shouldn't?

Because either borgs drop like flies (and from stuff like Bio-Manipulation: Pain), or you go to absurd lengths to protect them (like giving a brain the full HP/SDC of an actual human).

Neither of these makes much sense, especially since there are other MDC creatures out there with SDC parts (Fury Beetles), so the precedent is established that anything with enough MDC counts as an MDC creature, in spite of a few weaker components.

I never included SDC - only Hit Points. Nor did I say Bio-Manipulation should now affect them - they are expressly impervious to such. These rules are to be used for all the effects that CAN affect them, but do Hit-Point Damage. And if you think that's contradictory, then re-read the Borg section I quoted above - it allows for such.

Posted: **Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:23 am**

Malakai wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Malakai wrote:Well, let's consider if you gave them the same Hit Points as a normal character - 3D6 [PE] + 1D6 x level -

If you do that, then you are saying that a human brain has the same durability as the entire human body in general.
And you do this in the name of realism or consistency...?

Consistency - it could be argued that since there is significantly less tissue, there is significantly less tissue to effect (for area effects) and that such tissue is, by it's nature (either in regards ot itself or in regards to the capabilities of the effect) more difficult to harm. Examples: Larger characters are affected moreso by Phase beams, as there is more for the beam to affect - a borg would have the opposite effect. Death-bolt might target all of the body's internal organs - without them, it becomes much less effective, etc.

Remind me of this when I get to the "all sorts of patches" bit again.

For every patch you create, an equal and opposite hole (or hole) is created.
In this case, you're now mucking with the fundamental nature of damage capacity. If larger characters are more affected by attacks, that has ramifications throughout the game.

Aside from those highlighted, ALL of these rely on the impact through MDC Armor rules, correct? So, give Borgs and exception to these - say, because they have the ability to install impact dampeners and such - and you negate any "easy kill" from these sources.

Of just give them "damage dampeners" that diverts all incoming damage to their MDC body, of you want to pull gizmos out of nowhere.

I am giving a plausible, in-game reason to stop the foolishness you are suggesting - such as a 20 mph crash in an sdc vehicle killing a borg.[/quote]

And I am giving an equally plausible in-game reason to stop the foolishness you are suggesting.

(Okay, you're not actually suggesting much foolishness here, I just wanted to reflect the sentence back for symmetry.)

Yes, they're likely to have all sorts of padding and stuff.
But, for that matter, so is EBA.
For that matter, so is power armor.
It's pretty well taken into account already in those rules for taking SDC damage in armor/PA.

Could there be even more high-tech anti-impact stuff going into a Borg?
Sure, there could.
But just as plausibly, the brain and spinal chord are plasticized into being MDC structures.
Or are so full of cybernetic implants that they no longer count as living SDC structures.
Or any number of equally plausible things that would explain why a Borg is an MDC creature.

It usually makes a lot less waves and problems if you make stuff up to explain the rules rather than to change the rules.

You can make up all sorts of patches to explain why these things wouldn't affect them, but if you're going to go through that trouble, why not just make up an explanation why that other stuff doesn't affect them?

All sorts of patches?
1 - give them Hit-Points, because they're needed, even given the current rules.
2 - give explanation for immunity to silly attempts to kill them

That's all the patches I've come up with.

3. Smaller targets take less damage (or have proportionally higher SDC, or whatever).

But you're missing the point-
I said you CAN make up all sorts of patches, not that you have.
As in, "there are an incredibly large variety of semi-plausible ideas you could invent to use to explain why the impact rules etc. don't affect Borgs, but if you're going to make stuff up why not just use your imagination to explain why they're MDC creatures instead?"

But, in regards to Phase Beamers, and Magic and Psychic attacks that go directly to HP AND can go through armor, can you give a reasoned response to explain why it shouldn't?

Because either borgs drop like flies (and from stuff like Bio-Manipulation: Pain), or you go to absurd lengths to protect them (like giving a brain the full HP/SDC of an actual human).

Neither of these makes much sense, especially since there are other MDC creatures out there with SDC parts (Fury Beetles), so the precedent is established that anything with enough MDC counts as an MDC creature, in spite of a few weaker components.

I never included SDC - only Hit Points. [/quote]

Nets out the same.

Nor did I say Bio-Manipulation should now affect them - they are expressly impervious to such.

Fair point- I forgot that specific immunity, and was simply mentioning the first power I could think of that only did 1 HP or so damage.

These rules are to be used for all the effects that CAN affect them, but do Hit-Point Damage. And if you think that's contradictory, then re-read the Borg section I quoted above - it allows for such.

What about the borg section...?

Posted: **Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:37 pm**

For Reference, since KC doesn't want to look 11 posts up to where it was originally posted

RUE, page 47 wrote:Combat Cyborgs/Full Conversion 'Borgs do enjoy a +5 bonus to save vs possession, +3 bonus to save vs magic, and are impervious to psionic Bio-Manipulation, Telemechanics (all), See Aura, and any attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points (is considered a Mega-Damage being now).

Of course, since there is a human mind inside that machine body, the Combat Cyborg is still vulnerable to psionic and magic mind attacks, mind control, Empathic Transmission, Telepathy (mind reading), Hypnotic Suggestion, illusions and any psionic power or magic spell that affects the mind

These rules say that the Borg is impervious to attacks that do damage direct to hit points and that they are still vulnerable to psionic and magic mind attack (which, generally, deal damage direct to hit points). This is the issue.

By the rules, what is the effect of Mental Blast, when used against a Borg?

Mental Blast goes directly to Hit Points, which is both disallowed AND allowed by the above rules for Borgs. So, which is it?

Honestly, in re-reading the section, and re-acquainting myself with some D&D rules for a friends game, I came up with a possible solution, which still fits the rules.

In the last line fo the first quoted paragraph, it mentions attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points. So, the question comes up - what attacks or weapons deal damage direct to Hit Points? Immediately, Death Blow comes to mind. So does Blood loss, (possibly) choking / garrote attacks. After that, we start getting into obscure, typically magical, weaponry, and finally mystical effects, such as Mental Blast. So, given the above non-mystical sources, would they have any effect a Borg? No. Death Blow is specifically mentioned not working on machines. Blood Loss, without cracking open the brain-case of the Borg (which, by that point, you've already effectively got them "Out of their armor"), doesn't make sense. Neither does choking / using a garrote on a full-conversion Borg.

So, yes, all the non-Mystical ways seem to be ineffective when used against a Borg. And lo, that's what the rules say. Now, let's take a look at the Mystical ones.

The Borg section clearly identifies that Psionic and Magical mind attacks still work, because there is still a human mind in that machine body (remember this later, when we get to Phase Weaponry :wink:

). Now, since they've been made impervious to Bio-Manipulation, there's only one other power (in RUE) that would possibly affect them in a non-physical but still damaging way: Psychosomatic Disease. Which, given the second paragraph, fits - this is purely a mental attack, forcing the mind of the victim to believe it is suffering from the suggested affliction. Moving on to Magical attacks that go straight to Hit Points, we have:

Now, of these, only the Crimson Wall of Lictalon would seem to not do Hit Point damage to the Borg - but it already has a different damage score for MD anyways. Each other spell either qualifies as something that could affect a Borg or specifically mentions how it interacts with Borgs. The only other gray areas are the Shadow Wall, since the damage is described as "Life Drain" - I think we both can agree that the brain of Borg still qualifies as being "alive", yes? - and Soul Twist, which again mentions the damage is caused through the life-force and spirit of the target, as well as it could very well be reasoned to be a Mind Attack, and thus qualify through that.

So, we have these spells that can do damage direct to the Hit Points of a Borg, even according to the RUE rules - what are the Hit Points of a Borg?

I suggest using 3D6+1D6 per level, same as they are for a normal human. As a few of the spells seem to equate this with "life-force", it also seems fair that such equivalence should be used - to do otherwise would imply that Borgs have less "life-force" than non-Borgs. Now, KC, you seemed to be against this on account that it means that a stand-alone brain and spinal column could have the full Hit-Points of a while person, and in some respects i can understand your apprehension to the idea. However, as Hit Points have been used to measure more than just physical damage capacity, I feel that the difference in this case would be negligible; if anything, it seems to work in the Borg's favor, which helps them survive such attacks - a primary concern of yours. I even reasoned that the reason this would work in regards to Phase Weapons would be that, as a smaller target, it would be less effected, just as it has been shown in cannon that larger targets are more affected. (also note that this is the ONLY situation I mention this size-issue). Given the description of Phase Beam Weapons, why WOULDN'T they be able to ignore the machine-portion of the Borg and hit the living tissue inside?

Finally, in regards to the padding against impact damage - you have two things working for you as a Borg; you have FAR LESS soft tissue to worry about, and you have FAR MORE options for impact suppression than is normally available to a person wearing EBA or PA. Your "cockpit" [brain-case] is effectively never meant to be opened, nor do you have appendages to move about inside, or controls that you have to access through body movements. This means you don't have to make allowances for such, and can use otherwise impractical environments (such as suspension fluid), which can help dissipate the shock of impacts. You don't have to worry about getting the wind knocked out of you, or any other such effect. For any equivalent-sized PA suit, you can add in much more impact suppression, as you don't have to leave space for the rest of your body.

Posted: **Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:42 pm**

Malakai wrote:For Reference, since KC doesn't want to look 11 posts up to where it was originally posted
RUE, page 47 wrote:Combat Cyborgs/Full Conversion 'Borgs do enjoy a +5 bonus to save vs possession, +3 bonus to save vs magic, and are impervious to psionic Bio-Manipulation, Telemechanics (all), See Aura, and any attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points (is considered a Mega-Damage being now).

Of course, since there is a human mind inside that machine body, the Combat Cyborg is still vulnerable to psionic and magic mind attacks, mind control, Empathic Transmission, Telepathy (mind reading), Hypnotic Suggestion, illusions and any psionic power or magic spell that affects the mind

These rules say that the Borg is impervious to attacks that do damage direct to hit points and that they are still vulnerable to psionic and magic mind attack (which, generally, deal damage direct to hit points). This is the issue.

By the rules, what is the effect of Mental Blast, when used against a Borg?

Mental Blast goes directly to Hit Points, which is both disallowed AND allowed by the above rules for Borgs. So, which is it?

Same way it would affect any other MDC creature.

So, we have these spells that can do damage direct to the Hit Points of a Borg, even according to the RUE rules - what are the Hit Points of a Borg?

There aren't any- they're MDC creatures.
Just like dragons, brodkil, golems, robots, etc. etc.

I suggest using 3D6+1D6 per level, same as they are for a normal human. As a few of the spells seem to equate this with "life-force", it also seems fair that such equivalence should be used - to do otherwise would imply that Borgs have less "life-force" than non-Borgs.

A sensible conclusion, since PPE is also equated with life-force, and Borgs have diminished PPE due to their cybernetics.
Also, because Hit Points are based on the characters' Physical Endurance, and Borgs have none.

Now, KC, you seemed to be against this on account that it means that a stand-alone brain and spinal column could have the full Hit-Points of a while person, and in some respects i can understand your apprehension to the idea. However, as Hit Points have been used to measure more than just physical damage capacity, I feel that the difference in this case would be negligible; if anything, it seems to work in the Borg's favor, which helps them survive such attacks - a primary concern of yours.

My primary concern is maintaining the integrity of the game world, and the rules, while trying to have things make some sort of sense.
Helping Borgs survive basic attacks is a secondary effect of that, one that would be negated for me by giving a brain the same HP as a person.

(If it works for you, that's cool- I'm just pointing out that it doesn't make any sense to me, and asking if you're sure it all makes sense to you. We all ultimately compromise some aspect of realism for another.)

I even reasoned that the reason this would work in regards to Phase Weapons would be that, as a smaller target, it would be less effected, just as it has been shown in cannon that larger targets are more affected. (also note that this is the ONLY situation I mention this size-issue).

Fair point. I withdraw previous complaints/comments against that, and replace them with a vague general skepticism.

Given the description of Phase Beam Weapons, why WOULDN'T they be able to ignore the machine-portion of the Borg and hit the living tissue inside?

If you're looking for an in-game reason, it could well be that full conversion Borgs are so intricately linked with their machines that that for many intents and purposes their bodies actually are their bodies, whether they're a living part or not.
Just like our own bodies are actually already partially composed of non-living materials (hair, fingernails, the outer lair of our skin, etc.).

Or perhaps the link is even more than that, and as far as Phase Beams can tell, the cybernetic components are alive.

Finally, in regards to the padding against impact damage - you have two things working for you as a Borg; you have FAR LESS soft tissue to worry about, and you have FAR MORE options for impact suppression than is normally available to a person wearing EBA or PA. Your "cockpit" [brain-case] is effectively never meant to be opened, nor do you have appendages to move about inside, or controls that you have to access through body movements. This means you don't have to make allowances for such, and can use otherwise impractical environments (such as suspension fluid), which can help dissipate the shock of impacts. You don't have to worry about getting the wind knocked out of you, or any other such effect. For any equivalent-sized PA suit, you can add in much more impact suppression, as you don't have to leave space for the rest of your body.

All you have to worry about is getting your brain or spine bruised or bumped hard, which is all the concern you really need.

Posted: **Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:04 pm**

And here's something for you to also consider: Robots and golems.

Sure, they don't usually have minds, BUT sometimes they do.
There are Transferred Intelligence bots, for example.
And high level warlocks can put their souls in a Golem via magic.

How's that figure in with everything?

Posted: **Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:14 am**

You suggest treating them just like MDC creatures, but then why do the rules specify Psionic and Magic mind attacks as being vulnerabilities? If the body were to be treated as their normal body (albeit with the benefits of being mechanical and MDC), then why wouldn't attacks that don't rely on affecting the human mind inside work?

Because it mentions the human mind inside and specifies "mind" attacks as being a vulnerability, That should be considered. Treating it otherwise makes them no different than a Robot, which while similar, does them a disservice.

And in terms of Phase Weapons, now who's making stuff up? If your going to consider their bodies as "'their bodies", as a living part of themselves, then that opens up so many more issues.

Posted: **Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:58 am**

Malakai wrote:You suggest treating them just like MDC creatures, but then why do the rules specify Psionic and Magic mind attacks as being vulnerabilities?

Because, unlike (most) robots, and in spite of their invulnerability to certain psionic abilities, they do have minds and they are vulnerable to mind attacks.
It's a contrast from the previous paragraph.

If the body were to be treated as their normal body (albeit with the benefits of being mechanical and MDC), then why wouldn't attacks that don't rely on affecting the human mind inside work?

Why would their body be treated as their normal body without the benefits of MDC?
Their bodies are MDC.

Because it mentions the human mind inside and specifies "mind" attacks as being a vulnerability, That should be considered.

It always has been considered.
No idea why or where you think it hasn't been?

Treating it otherwise makes them no different than a Robot, which while similar, does them a disservice.

Again, some robots DO have minds, and are vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.
It's not about having any SDC biological components, it's about having a mind.
If you have a mind, then you are generally vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.

And in terms of Phase Weapons, now who's making stuff up?

Both of us- I thought that was what that bit of the conversation was about; you were looking for some made-up excuse for the rules.

If your going to consider their bodies as "'their bodies", as a living part of themselves, then that opens up so many more issues.

Like?

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:34 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Malakai wrote:If the body were to be treated as their normal body (albeit with the benefits of being mechanical and MDC), then why wouldn't attacks that don't rely on affecting the human mind inside work?

Why would their body be treated as their normal body without the benefits of MDC?
Their bodies are MDC.

Read what I wrote again - I never said without the benefits of MDC - quite the opposite, actually. What I WAS saying, is that there was no need to specify mind attacks as a vulnerability if they were going to be treated like any other MDC being. That they DO make that distinction, and mention it separate from "any psionic power or magic spell that affects the mind", would seem to indicate that they were making specific references to attacks such as Mental Blast.

Because it mentions the human mind inside and specifies "mind" attacks as being a vulnerability, That should be considered.

It always has been considered.
No idea why or where you think it hasn't been?

When you ignore there's a flesh and blood brain in there, and treat it just like any other Robot, you are not taking it into consideration.

Treating it otherwise makes them no different than a Robot, which while similar, does them a disservice.

Again, some robots DO have minds, and are vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.
It's not about having any SDC biological components, it's about having a mind.
If you have a mind, then you are generally vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.

Yes, some robots do - but there's a difference between a Robot and a Borg. Your saying there isn't

And in terms of Phase Weapons, now who's making stuff up?

Both of us- I thought that was what that bit of the conversation was about; you were looking for some made-up excuse for the rules.
If your going to consider their bodies as "'their bodies", as a living part of themselves, then that opens up so many more issues.

Like?

re-read the Phase Technology section in PW. Here, I'll quote it for you:

Rifts Dimension Book 2: Phase World, page 122 wrote:What makes the beamer so effective is that it bypasses any type of armor the target s wearing. . . . . . The phase field is not disruptive enough to damage metals, and most non-living things (note that living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage).

Also, there's the wonderful section in the Borg O.C.C. and in the Magic section of RUE which mentions the severe negative effects of such materials and implants with regards to the psionic and magical nature of the person. Of particular interest is the fact that such things DESTROY the capacity for magic and psionics. In the psionic section, it even says that the reason for such is believed that the psionic essence of the person is somehow linked to the physical body.

To put it bluntly - you can't have it both ways.

All evidence points to the Borg body being nothing but hardware and a chassis for the human mind inside, yet you are suggesting that this isn't the case, as a means of avoiding the threat of Phase Weapons and similar effects.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:44 pm**

Malakai wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Malakai wrote:If the body were to be treated as their normal body (albeit with the benefits of being mechanical and MDC), then why wouldn't attacks that don't rely on affecting the human mind inside work?

Why would their body be treated as their normal body without the benefits of MDC?
Their bodies are MDC.

Read what I wrote again - I never said without the benefits of MDC - quite the opposite, actually.

Oops.

What I WAS saying, is that there was no need to specify mind attacks as a vulnerability if they were going to be treated like any other MDC being. That they DO make that distinction, and mention it separate from "any psionic power or magic spell that affects the mind", would seem to indicate that they were making specific references to attacks such as Mental Blast.

Again, all I see is that they're saying that while the Borgs are impervious to Bio-Manipulation and certain other mental powers, they are still vulnerable to mind attacks just like most other characters.

When you ignore there's a flesh and blood brain in there, and treat it just like any other Robot, you are not taking it into consideration.

But I'm not ignoring that fact.

Treating it otherwise makes them no different than a Robot, which while similar, does them a disservice.

Again, some robots DO have minds, and are vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.
It's not about having any SDC biological components, it's about having a mind.
If you have a mind, then you are generally vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.

Yes, some robots do - but there's a difference between a Robot and a Borg. Your saying there isn't

I'm not saying that there's NO difference, I'm just saying that there is not a difference in how mind-attack damage is (or should be) handled.

My point is: What happens when a TI Robot is hit by Death Bolt or one of the other effects?
What do you take the damage off of?
Presumably their main body MDC, because they lack any other form of damage capacity.

The same would apply with Borgs.
They don't have HP or SDC- just take the damage off their main body.
Just like with any other MDC creature.

If your going to consider their bodies as "'their bodies", as a living part of themselves, then that opens up so many more issues.

Like?

re-read the Phase Technology section in PW. Here, I'll quote it for you:

Rifts Dimension Book 2: Phase World, page 122 wrote:What makes the beamer so effective is that it bypasses any type of armor the target s wearing. . . . . . The phase field is not disruptive enough to damage metals, and most non-living things (note that living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage).

[/quote]

Stopping you right there for a moment, reread that bit.
"living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage."
Borgs are living creatures.
Borgs are made predominantly of metal, but that doesn't mean that they don't take damage.

Also, there's the wonderful section in the Borg O.C.C. and in the Magic section of RUE which mentions the severe negative effects of such materials and implants with regards to the psionic and magical nature of the person. Of particular interest is the fact that such things DESTROY the capacity for magic and psionics. In the psionic section, it even says that the reason for such is believed that the psionic essence of the person is somehow linked to the physical body.

To put it bluntly - you can't have it both ways.

No idea what you're trying to get at here, at what issues you think are being opened up, or why you quoted that passage, or why you think that destroying the ability for psionics and magic is a big deal.
Again, TI Bots have NO physical body, and they can still have psionics (and maybe even magic).

But mostly just that "being linked to the physical body" doesn't mean that the borg's new body isn't actually their body, just that their new body disrupts their abilities in some ways.

All evidence points to the Borg body being nothing but hardware and a chassis for the human mind inside, yet you are suggesting that this isn't the case, as a means of avoiding the threat of Phase Weapons and similar effects.

[/quote]

Not all evidence.
On the other side of things, we have:
-Borgs are considered MDC creatures. Period. By canon.
They are NOT considered SDC creatures with MDC components according to the rules of the game.
-It makes no real sense to give Borgs SDC components more than 1 HP. If you go strictly by the rules for HP, then they might get as many as 1d6 per level (PE of 0 + 1d6 per level), but that's ignoring the rule that Borgs don't have HP, so that's not really going strictly by the rules.
In any case, Borgs would be dropping right and left.
And the fact is, they're NOT dropping right or left.
Meaning that, as already stated in the rules, they don't have HP to be affected by such attacks.
-When somebody casts a spell on a Borg, like Fly as the Eagle, or Invisibility, or whatever, it affects the Borg as a whole, NOT just the borg's brain.
But if you cast the spell on the pilot of a robot, it does not affect the pilot's vehicle.
That's because a Borg's body IS their body.
-Powers that affect machines (such as Telemechanics), typically do NOT work on the body of a Borg, event though it's mechanical in nature. These powers do work just fine on robots (except, sometimes, TIs). The only difference between a cybernetic part and a robotic part is that cybernetics are part of a living creature.

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:35 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Treating it otherwise makes them no different than a Robot, which while similar, does them a disservice.

Again, some robots DO have minds, and are vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.
It's not about having any SDC biological components, it's about having a mind.
If you have a mind, then you are generally vulnerable to mind-affecting attacks.

Yes, some robots do - but there's a difference between a Robot and a Borg. Your saying there isn't

I'm not saying that there's NO difference, I'm just saying that there is not a difference in how mind-attack damage is (or should be) handled.

My point is: What happens when a TI Robot is hit by Death Bolt or one of the other effects?
What do you take the damage off of?
Presumably their main body MDC, because they lack any other form of damage capacity.

The same would apply with Borgs.
They don't have HP or SDC- just take the damage off their main body.
Just like with any other MDC creature.

Umm - Robots are IMMUNE to Death Bolt. Cyborgs aren't. Death bolt also states that it ignores armor, including light borg armor (and, by implication, the Borg's chassis as well).

If your going to consider their bodies as "'their bodies", as a living part of themselves, then that opens up so many more issues.

Like?

re-read the Phase Technology section in PW. Here, I'll quote it for you:
Rifts Dimension Book 2: Phase World, page 122 wrote:What makes the beamer so effective is that it bypasses any type of armor the target s wearing. . . . . . The phase field is not disruptive enough to damage metals, and most non-living things (note that living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage).

Stopping you right there for a moment, reread that bit.
"living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage."
Borgs are living creatures.
Borgs are made predominantly of metal, but that doesn't mean that they don't take damage.

This exception is made on account of mineral races. Borgs are NOT living creatures, at least, not in the way you are suggesting. They are "machines with a human brain" (page 45 of RUE). There are repeated references to it being a mechanical body with a human brain - The brain (and any other original organs and tissues still retained) is the living tissue - everything else is machine.

Also, there's the wonderful section in the Borg O.C.C. and in the Magic section of RUE which mentions the severe negative effects of such materials and implants with regards to the psionic and magical nature of the person. Of particular interest is the fact that such things DESTROY the capacity for magic and psionics. In the psionic section, it even says that the reason for such is believed that the psionic essence of the person is somehow linked to the physical body.

To put it bluntly - you can't have it both ways.

No idea what you're trying to get at here, at what issues you think are being opened up, or why you quoted that passage, or why you think that destroying the ability for psionics and magic is a big deal.
Again, TI Bots have NO physical body, and they can still have psionics (and maybe even magic).

But mostly just that "being linked to the physical body" doesn't mean that the borg's new body isn't actually their body, just that their new body disrupts their abilities in some ways.

You keep showcasing the TI, when you shouldn't - it's listed as a special form of robotic intelligence, where it specifically states that everything, including the energy/essence, is transferred to the robot, and that such technology is far beyond current levels of Rifts Earth. They are also mentioned as being significantly different from Borgs. And they DO, in fact, have a body (the housing unit).

All evidence points to the Borg body being nothing but hardware and a chassis for the human mind inside, yet you are suggesting that this isn't the case, as a means of avoiding the threat of Phase Weapons and similar effects.

Not all evidence.
On the other side of things, we have:
-Borgs are considered MDC creatures. Period. By canon.
They are NOT considered SDC creatures with MDC components according to the rules of the game.

That's part of the issue being brought up - they SHOULD have a HP score. As you have pointed out earlier - there ARE MDC creatures with SDC scores for certain parts.

-It makes no real sense to give Borgs SDC components more than 1 HP. If you go strictly by the rules for HP, then they might get as many as 1d6 per level (PE of 0 + 1d6 per level), but that's ignoring the rule that Borgs don't have HP, so that's not really going strictly by the rules.

You can't argue that a rule shouldn't exist because it doesn't - it's a logical fallacy

In any case, Borgs would be dropping right and left.
And the fact is, they're NOT dropping right or left.
Meaning that, as already stated in the rules, they don't have HP to be affected by such attacks.

Perhaps in your games they aren't. In other games they are. Also, just because something may have been left out (HP for Borgs) doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

-When somebody casts a spell on a Borg, like Fly as the Eagle, or Invisibility, or whatever, it affects the Borg as a whole, NOT just the borg's brain.

Well, those spells don't say they only affect flesh-and-blood targets, now do they?

But if you cast the spell on the pilot of a robot, it does not affect the pilot's vehicle.
That's because a Borg's body IS their body.

Robots and vehicles are, as a rule, generally excluded from the effects of most spells that affcet the pilot (indeed, you often can't affect the pilot of such vehicles while they are in them).

-Powers that affect machines (such as Telemechanics), typically do NOT work on the body of a Borg, event though it's mechanical in nature. These powers do work just fine on robots (except, sometimes, TIs). The only difference between a cybernetic part and a robotic part is that cybernetics are part of a living creature.

Well, since Telemechanics is specifically stated as something a Borg is immune to, you would have to supply different powers to support your theory. And, for the record, the Telemechanic powers generally DON'T work on any kind of artificially intelligent robot - Telemechanics only allows telepathy as an added benefit, and only Possession works (to which they are entitled a saving throw). Interestingly, Borgs and T.I. get the same bonus vs Possession (+5), but, then again, given what Possession actually is, according to Palladium, this similarity and discrepancy in terms Borg Telemechanic immunity may have a simple explanation - in order to possess a TI, without an ounce of living tissue, you would need the Telemechanic version of Possession, where as for a Borg, the controlling essence resides in the living tissue, and thus is succeptible by your standard possession power. Yes, this is my own opinion, but it certainly makes more sense than calling the entire borg body "alive"

Posted: **Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:12 pm**

Malakai wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:My point is: What happens when a TI Robot is hit by Death Bolt or one of the other effects?
What do you take the damage off of?
Presumably their main body MDC, because they lack any other form of damage capacity.

The same would apply with Borgs.
They don't have HP or SDC- just take the damage off their main body.
Just like with any other MDC creature.

Umm - Robots are IMMUNE to Death Bolt.

I'm betting that the person who wrote that was NOT thinking about Transferred Intelligence bots.
But that's not the point, because we're talking about more than just Death Bolt- we're talking about psychic attacks in general, and TI Bots are described as being vulnerable to them.

Cyborgs aren't. Death bolt also states that it ignores armor, including light borg armor (and, by implication, the Borg's chassis as well).

I disagree that this is implied at all.
Quite the reverse, actually.

Death Bolt's damage description clearly states:
If the opponent is supernatural or some other Mega-Damage creature, it suffers 1d6 MD per level of experience of the spell caster.

This seems like a very simple equation:
Borgs are MDC creatures.
Death Bolt inflicts MD to MDC creatures.
Therefore, Death Bolt inflicts MD to Borgs.

Nothing in any of that that indicates the death bolt bypasses the Borg's body, invents some Hit Points to affect, then inflicts Hit Point damage to them.

If your going to consider their bodies as "'their bodies", as a living part of themselves, then that opens up so many more issues.

Like?

re-read the Phase Technology section in PW. Here, I'll quote it for you:
Rifts Dimension Book 2: Phase World, page 122 wrote:What makes the beamer so effective is that it bypasses any type of armor the target s wearing. . . . . . The phase field is not disruptive enough to damage metals, and most non-living things (note that living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage).

Stopping you right there for a moment, reread that bit.
"living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage."
Borgs are living creatures.
Borgs are made predominantly of metal, but that doesn't mean that they don't take damage.

This exception is made on account of mineral races. Borgs are NOT living creatures, at least, not in the way you are suggesting.

Sure they are.
If they weren't living creatures, then Death Bolt wouldn't affect them at all.
Neither would Phase Beams.

They are "machines with a human brain" (page 45 of RUE). There are repeated references to it being a mechanical body with a human brain - The brain (and any other original organs and tissues still retained) is the living tissue - everything else is machine.

This does not contradict them being living creatures.
In fact, it pretty much states that they ARE living creatures.
:-?

You keep showcasing the TI, when you shouldn't - it's listed as a special form of robotic intelligence, where it specifically states that everything, including the energy/essence, is transferred to the robot, and that such technology is far beyond current levels of Rifts Earth.

And that matters why?
We're not talking about what's rare or common on Rifts Earth, we're talking about how mental/psychic attacks affect living creatures with mechanical bodies.
TI Bots fit the bill. The only difference between them and Borgs is that Borgs actually have a few remaining biological components.

They are also mentioned as being significantly different from Borgs. And they DO, in fact, have a body (the housing unit).

Their robot body is their body.
Just like a Borg's body is a borg's body.

That's part of the issue being brought up - they SHOULD have a HP score. As you have pointed out earlier - there ARE MDC creatures with SDC scores for certain parts.

Actually, what I pointed out was that there are MDC creatures that have SDC parts.... but where the SDC parts are NOT statted out and are effectively non-existent.
Like with the Fury Beetle.

-It makes no real sense to give Borgs SDC components more than 1 HP. If you go strictly by the rules for HP, then they might get as many as 1d6 per level (PE of 0 + 1d6 per level), but that's ignoring the rule that Borgs don't have HP, so that's not really going strictly by the rules.

You can't argue that a rule shouldn't exist because it doesn't - it's a logical fallacy

You shouldn't sit down with a back pocket full of caterpillars.

(Since we're handing out random advice that doesn't seem to have anything to do with what the other person is saying or doing...)

In any case, Borgs would be dropping right and left.
And the fact is, they're NOT dropping right or left.
Meaning that, as already stated in the rules, they don't have HP to be affected by such attacks.

Perhaps in your games they aren't. In other games they are. [/quote]

Really?
Whose games?
And how do they justify anybody actually going to the trouble of making something so expensive and so easily killed?

Also, just because something may have been left out (HP for Borgs) doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

Unless you assume that the writers left it out for a reason, which they did.
Reason being, that there's no way to sensibly give then any HP which wouldn't also target them for easy death, thereby disrupting the game world.

-When somebody casts a spell on a Borg, like Fly as the Eagle, or Invisibility, or whatever, it affects the Borg as a whole, NOT just the borg's brain.

Well, those spells don't say they only affect flesh-and-blood targets, now do they?

Neither does Death Bolt.
What's your point?

But if you cast the spell on the pilot of a robot, it does not affect the pilot's vehicle.
That's because a Borg's body IS their body.

Robots and vehicles are, as a rule, generally excluded from the effects of most spells that affcet the pilot (indeed, you often can't affect the pilot of such vehicles while they are in them).

Exactly.
A Cyborg isn't just a human brain piloting a robotic body.
It's a cyborg- a melding of human and machine, not one thing piloting another.
The borg's body is the borg's body.

-Powers that affect machines (such as Telemechanics), typically do NOT work on the body of a Borg, event though it's mechanical in nature. These powers do work just fine on robots (except, sometimes, TIs). The only difference between a cybernetic part and a robotic part is that cybernetics are part of a living creature.

Well, since Telemechanics is specifically stated as something a Borg is immune to, you would have to supply different powers to support your theory.

So.. because Borgs are immune to Telemechanics, just like I said, I can't use Telemechanics as an example of Borgs being immune to powers that normally affect machines?
Say what :?:

And, for the record, the Telemechanic powers generally DON'T work on any kind of artificially intelligent robot- Telemechanics only allows telepathy as an added benefit,

Doesn't matter, because that's not what we're talking about.
Take a Borg. TM doesn't work.
Take the same Borg, scoop out the brain and biological bits, and guess what?
TM now works, because instead of it being a Borg, it's just a machine.
Take a cybernetic arm not attached to anything, and TM works.
Take that same arm, attach it to a Borg, and TM does not work anymore.
This is my point.
Mechanical parts that are part of a Borg are NOT affected the same way as normal machines- because they're not normal machines, they're part of the Borg.

Posted: **Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:40 pm**

Not quoting to avoid pyramids - I will be answering them generally in order they were presented, however, so try an keep up

1) Well, I don't really consider Death Bolt a psychic attack, since "psychic", "mind", or "mental" are never mentioned. And in reference to Death Bolt specifying flesh and blood creatures, it says robots and machines are immune = flesh-and-blood targets. To use your own example, there's a person and a cybernetic arm (unattached). I cast Death bolt at each - the first one is hit, the second fails / does absolutely nothing to the arm. Attach the arm to the person. Cast again. Now, suddenly, Death Bolt affects non-living tissues?

2) Your still begging the question - your using the fact that borgs have no listed hit points to show that borgs shouldn't have listed hit points. I am saying that, while in general such consideration is not needed, there are instances where the Hit Points of a Borg should be considered - there are really only a handful of situations out of how many? It would have been easy to overlook them when writing/editing the book, ESPECIALLY when it was repeated that there was serious concerns for space.

3 and 4) Since it seems I need to clarify - Borgs have both living and non-living parts. The only living parts are the very few organs and tissue that remain, often only the brain and part of the spinal column. Everything else is machine. non-living. Death Bolt, and effects similar to, can bypass non-living materials to affect the living target inside. Thus they can still be targeted. As you showed, take the brain out - even if you include the "essence" by turning it into a TI - and suddenly Death Bolt can't affect it. Ergo, Death Bolt only affects living tissue. This would also go for phase beams.

5) Because TIs represent an even CLOSER melding of man and machine - on a level far beyond what is possible with Borg Technology, and thus would open up even more avenues/arguments for special considerations - things that would apply to TIs that would not necessarily apply to Borgs, and thus comparisons are muddled.

6) Oh really? You just said

Killer Cyborg wrote:Again, TI Bots have NO physical body

Make up your mind.

7 and

Weapons can have both SD and MD settings, but when they don't list SD settings, they can only fire at MD levels. Turn about is fair play, right? Specifically in regards to issue #8, please look up "Begging the Question"

9) Hmmmm - lets see, first we would have to see what's the total cost for a Borg, wouldn't we? I don't recall where, or even if, Palladium has ever listed the cost of flesh-to-borg conversion, but since The Bionics Source Book refers to the concept of going all Bio-Systems (3-5 million) as prohibitively expensive, you could argue that the Borg conversion itself could not cost more than 1-2 million, tops. There are PLENTY of PA in that range, of which a Borg is not too different. Only they never leave their suits. they need very little, if any food (personally, I imagine the baby-food type stuff a la Robocop) They can't really be stolen. They can be more customizable than PA. . . . .the list goes on. Just because there are SOME things that pose a threat does not mean that they aren't worth it. PA would have the same issues as Borgs would in terms of Phase World, and unless you playing that setting, you rarely, if ever, have to worry about those, so that cuts down the threat to just a few sources

10) Easy death is a relative term here, as only a very few things would be more of a threat to them. I don't see you banning Volleys of 4 LRMS, and those make for relatively easy kills. Giving a credible threat to a Borg is not something I see as a game-breaker.

11) - please see #1. Death Bolt is, indeed, limited to flesh and blood targets

12) - since it may have been a little bit ambiguous, the Robot i was referring to are the Robot Vehicles, such as the Abolisher or the Dyna-Max 1000

13) - As I pointed out, all sentient Robots are immune to at least half of the Telemechanic powers. of the powers that can effect them, they mimic other psychic powers that work only on flesh-and-blood targets. Case in point, Telemechanics can be thought of as a machine version of psychic diagnosis. Telemechanic Possession is the machine version of Mentally Possess Others. Since they already have these powers which work on Borgs (thanks to their living mind), the duplication of such is not needed.

14) Ever consider that they are already effectively being controlled by an outside entity already - namely, the mind of the Borg? This interpretation doesn't change the fundamental nature of either, and explains the immunity. What you're suggesting requires the hardware to change some inherent aspect of itself - which can lead to a form of Theseus' Ship

Posted: **Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:41 pm**

Malakai wrote:Not quoting to avoid pyramids - I will be answering them generally in order they were presented, however, so try an keep up

1) Well, I don't really consider Death Bolt a psychic attack, since "psychic", "mind", or "mental" are never mentioned. And in reference to Death Bolt specifying flesh and blood creatures, it says robots and machines are immune = flesh-and-blood targets.

It says robots and machines are immune.
That does NOT mean that flesh and blood targets are the only viable targets.
There are plenty of things that are not flesh and blood, but also are not robots/machines.

Unless the power says somewhere that I'm missing that it ONLY works on flesh and blood, that's not how it works.

To use your own example, there's a person and a cybernetic arm (unattached). I cast Death bolt at each - the first one is hit, the second fails / does absolutely nothing to the arm. Attach the arm to the person. Cast again. Now, suddenly, Death Bolt affects non-living tissues?

Actually, the spell passage doesn't say that it wouldn't work on that severed arm. There is a kind of indication in that direction by the fact that death bolts can pass through armor, but that could well also just mean that they have a really good ability to hit their targets.

2) Your still begging the question - your using the fact that borgs have no listed hit points to show that borgs shouldn't have listed hit points.

That's not begging the question- that's stating a truism.

I am saying that, while in general such consideration is not needed, there are instances where the Hit Points of a Borg should be considered

And I am disagreeing with you.
The actual rule, that Borgs are MDC creatures, is far more workable and requires a lot less effort.

- there are really only a handful of situations out of how many?

Depends on if you use the optional impact rules. If you do, then it would be quite common.
If not, then it would depend entirely on how common certain psionic, magic, and tech attacks are.

It would have been easy to overlook them when writing/editing the book, ESPECIALLY when it was repeated that there was serious concerns for space.

It wasn't overlooked. They looked at it, and the solution was that Borgs are considered MDC creatures.

3 and 4) Since it seems I need to clarify - Borgs have both living and non-living parts.

Correct; just like the rest of us.

Death Bolt, and effects similar to, can bypass non-living materials to affect the living target inside.

If the non-living material is armor or such, sure.
If it's part of the living creature's body, not so much.

As you showed, take the brain out - even if you include the "essence" by turning it into a TI - and suddenly Death Bolt can't affect it. Ergo, Death Bolt only affects living tissue. This would also go for phase beams.

I didn't really show that at all; as I said, it's likely that a Death Bolt would affect a TI, it's just that the author didn't think of that scenario.
Of course, going strictly by the rules they are robots and would be unaffected, but that doesn't show that Death Bolt only affects living tissue.
There's nothing saying that the spell doesn't affect golems, elementals, entities, or other creatures that have no living tissue.

5) Because TIs represent an even CLOSER melding of man and machine - on a level far beyond what is possible with Borg Technology, and thus would open up even more avenues/arguments for special considerations - things that would apply to TIs that would not necessarily apply to Borgs, and thus comparisons are muddled.

Now you're begging the question; who says that TIs are a closer melding than Borgs?

6) Oh really? You just said
Killer Cyborg wrote:Again, TI Bots have NO physical body

Make up your mind.

My mind is made up; I was referring to a biological body when I said that originally.
Context is important.

7 and Weapons can have both SD and MD settings, but when they don't list SD settings, they can only fire at MD levels. Turn about is fair play, right?

RIGHT- which is why creatures like Borgs and Fury Beetles that have unstatted SDC components- but where those are not statted out- effectively ONLY have MDC.

Specifically in regards to issue #8, please look up "Begging the Question"

Don't have to- I know what it means.
Why don't you look up "stating a truism."
A = A.
Simple fact, not a logical fallacy- no matter how much you think that A really should equal ~A.

9) Hmmmm - lets see, first we would have to see what's the total cost for a Borg, wouldn't we? I don't recall where, or even if, Palladium has ever listed the cost of flesh-to-borg conversion, but since The Bionics Source Book refers to the concept of going all Bio-Systems (3-5 million) as prohibitively expensive, you could argue that the Borg conversion itself could not cost more than 1-2 million, tops. There are PLENTY of PA in that range, of which a Borg is not too different. Only they never leave their suits. they need very little, if any food (personally, I imagine the baby-food type stuff a la Robocop) They can't really be stolen. They can be more customizable than PA. . . . .the list goes on. Just because there are SOME things that pose a threat does not mean that they aren't worth it. PA would have the same issues as Borgs would in terms of Phase World, and unless you playing that setting, you rarely, if ever, have to worry about those, so that cuts down the threat to just a few sources

When the "some things" include "sustaining a 20 mph impact," "falling 20' or more," relatively common weapons (this is for Phase World, where phase beams and Borgs are both relatively common), and other stuff, then it definitely wouldn't be worth it.
Unless you want to make up additional rules (like giving Borgs the same HP as a person with a full body) to try to prop up the unnecessary rule that they have HP in the first place.

10) Easy death is a relative term here, as only a very few things would be more of a threat to them. I don't see you banning Volleys of 4 LRMS, and those make for relatively easy kills. Giving a credible threat to a Borg is not something I see as a game-breaker.

Volleys of 4+ LRMs are pretty darned rare in my games.
Falling 20' or getting hit by a spell are not.

12) - since it may have been a little bit ambiguous, the Robot i was referring to are the Robot Vehicles, such as the Abolisher or the Dyna-Max 1000

And I was still referring to Borgs, and the fact that Borgs are NOT the pilots of their bodies- they are their bodies (as much as anybody else is).

13) - As I pointed out, all sentient Robots are immune to at least half of the Telemechanic powers. of the powers that can effect them, they mimic other psychic powers that work only on flesh-and-blood targets.

Borgs aren't sentient robots.

Case in point, Telemechanics can be thought of as a machine version of psychic diagnosis. Telemechanic Possession is the machine version of Mentally Possess Others. Since they already have these powers which work on Borgs (thanks to their living mind), the duplication of such is not needed.

Now you're talking game logistics- you don't see the need for the rule, so why have it even though it would be the realistic way things would work IF Borgs' bodies were simply machines just like any other.
That's cool- but if you think it's kosher to not have a rule simply because there's no need for it, what's with the drive to give Borgs HP just to be used in a set of circumstances that you see as being rare? Especially when there's already a rule in place that covers those situations?

14) Ever consider that they are already effectively being controlled by an outside entity already - namely, the mind of the Borg?

Take out the word "outside" and that's exactly what I've considered.
Borgs are already in connection with their bodies, and in control of them- they're a part of the Borg, not independent machines.

What you're suggesting requires the hardware to change some inherent aspect of itself - which can lead to a form of Theseus' Ship

And?

Posted: **Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:44 pm**

Munchkin Slappin GM wrote:In the Phase World setting I figure that any of the advanced rases could put a small force field surronding the brain in the cyborg, a little munchy in my opinion, but it would an option IMO.

It certainly would be, and that would fall under the myriad of possible rationalizations you could come up with to safeguard borgs from all the problems that they don't need safeguarding against as the rules stand now.

I just don't see the point in going through the trouble of making stuff up to fill the holes that were caused by an unnecessary decision in the first place.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:45 am**

Killer Cyborg wrote:It says robots and machines are immune.
That does NOT mean that flesh and blood targets are the only viable targets.
There are plenty of things that are not flesh and blood, but also are not robots/machines.

Unless the power says somewhere that I'm missing that it ONLY works on flesh and blood, that's not how it works.

My mistake on using the term flesh-and-blood - there, are indeed other targets, such as golems, elementals, and such.

However, given the two targets in question, a Borg and a TI Robot, the ONLY difference between the two would be the brain actually being present in the Borg. That makes them a valid target. What other reason than the target has to be living?

Actually, the spell passage doesn't say that it wouldn't work on that severed arm. There is a kind of indication in that direction by the fact that death bolts can pass through armor, but that could well also just mean that they have a really good ability to hit their targets.

But it does say that it wouldn't work - it doesn't work on machines. what is an unattached bionic limb, other than a piece of machinery?

That's not begging the question- that's stating a truism.

Let's put this another way - I am saying that the absence of HP for a Borg was a mistake, and they should be included. Saying that they shouldn't be listed because they are not present is begging the question, because the question revolves around whether they should or shouldn't be listed, not whether they are or are not.

And I am disagreeing with you.
The actual rule, that Borgs are MDC creatures, is far more workable and requires a lot less effort.

And yet here we are.
A lot less effort? write "HP:", Roll a few dice, and write that number next to it. Wa-la, there you go.
Far more workable? Well, might as well just ignore the part about them having any biology at all, and just call them robots - that is, in effect, what you are suggesting anyways. Far more workable, indeed.

It's better, IMO, to put forth a modicum of effort in order to provide a richer, more detailed game than to just pare everything down to "whatever's easiest"

Depends on if you use the optional impact rules. If you do, then it would be quite common.
If not, then it would depend entirely on how common certain psionic, magic, and tech attacks are.

As stated, I am NOT applying the impact rules to Borgs, and neither are you, so it's a non-issue.

It wasn't overlooked. They looked at it, and the solution was that Borgs are considered MDC creatures.

And yet you say they overlooked TIs when writing up Death Bolt. I think we can both agree that no author can take into account every situation or possibility when they are writing the rules. And even when they do make the attempt, with blanket statements, there may be instances where even those don't really apply.

Which means it's just as likely that they forgot to include TI Robots on the list of valid targets as they did forget to include HP for Borgs. Both seem (to the respective proponents; Myself for the Borg, you for the TI) to be cases where the author did not take into account a very small selection of possible exceptions.

Correct; just like the rest of us.

Really? Aside from a few screws in my leg, I don't have anything non-living as part of my body.

If the non-living material is armor or such, sure.
If it's part of the living creature's body, not so much.

So I 'jack into my armor - now it's suddenly taking the damage instead of me?

Where are you drawing the line? This kind of reasoning brings forth a whole slew of issues.

Now you're begging the question; who says that TIs are a closer melding than Borgs?

Page 14 of Rifts Sourcebook One, Revised, "In some ways, this may sound like a full conversion cyborg, but the process is far more dramatic and complete, leaving absolutely no organic brain, tissue, organs, or fluid." emphasis mine

Don't have to- I know what it means.
Why don't you look up "stating a truism."
A = A.
Simple fact, not a logical fallacy- no matter how much you think that A really should equal ~A.

Then your ignoring the issue - I never said that they HAVE listed HP, I stated that they SHOULD. Stating that they DON'T have HP listed is redundant, since we BOTH agree that it's not listed. When you use that AS A REASON IT SHOULDN'T BE LISTED, that's when you are begging the question.

9)When the "some things" include "sustaining a 20 mph impact," "falling 20' or more,"

Which BOTH of us agree shouldn't apply to Borgs

relatively common weapons (this is for Phase World, where phase beams and Borgs are both relatively common)

Common weapons? The only Nation or group that can build or service them in any appreciable amount (i.e. beyond the workings of an individual person) is Phase World. 1 Planet, in the entirety of the 3 Galaxies. Doesn't sound too common to me.

Unless you want to make up additional rules (like giving Borgs the same HP as a person with a full body) to try to prop up the unnecessary rule that they have HP in the first place.

doesn't seem so unnecessary to me.

Volleys of 4+ LRMs are pretty darned rare in my games.
Falling 20' or getting hit by a spell are not.

We could change that to Short-Range or even Mini-Missiles, if you'd prefer - the issue is the same. Hell, we can even go to Fusion blocks. It's very easy to die with Mega-Damage. It's also very easy to die with direct-to-HP damage as well. You seem to have a problem with having these threaten a Borg specifically, when they are just as much a threat to anyone else equally, so game balance in this instance doesn't apply.

Borgs aren't sentient robots.

I have two responses: Your point? or, So stop treating them like sentient robots and stop ignoring the living brain inside.

Now you're talking game logistics- you don't see the need for the rule, so why have it even though it would be the realistic way things would work IF Borgs' bodies were simply machines just like any other.
That's cool- but if you think it's kosher to not have a rule simply because there's no need for it, what's with the drive to give Borgs HP just to be used in a set of circumstances that you see as being rare? Especially when there's already a rule in place that covers those situations?

Because the given rules are inadequate, or at the very least, ignore part of what make a Borg a Borg - namely, the human mind inside. Following your interpretation, there is VERY little game-mechanical difference between TI and a Borg (so little as to be non-existent). This is what I have a problem with. My interpretation, which still follows the rules, says that HP was mistakenly left off (due to unforeseen interactions) - and that they should get the same as everyone else.

What you're suggesting requires the hardware to change some inherent aspect of itself - which can lead to a form of Theseus' Ship

And?

So where do you draw the line? I 'jack in to a computer - is that computer now "alive" because it's connected to living being? No? Then what's the difference between those connections and the connections between the brain-case and the Borg body?

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:03 am**

Rogue_Scientist wrote:The rules aren't strictly logical. They were likely developed during play-testing to set up a system that most people can live with and provides a sense of versimilitude. Practically speaking, its not really going to set a Mage or Necromancer back too far if they can't use Death Bolt or Mind Blast on a 'Borg. They'll use other tools. But allowing such attacks to blow right past a Cyborg's main defenses can be devastating to the 'Borg, and the guy playing one.

Well, those attacks normally blow through everyone else's main defenses (Armor and SDC), so I don't see how the Borg player gets to complain and everyone else has to just suck it up. Sure, it may not be fun to get hit with them, but maybe the threat of them will make the Borg player THINK before just charging in and trying to solve the problem with his built-in weaponry, secure in the fact that he has more MDC than most of his opponents. It's only a very few cases, so it's not like these have to pop up all the time. Again, it's not making them any more vulnerable than anyone else, and often times they STILL possess better counters than normal people against such to begin with.

If you're looking for a logical framework for the official rules, I can present three possibilities:

A) Attacks such as Mind Blast, Bio-Manipulation, etc specifically target the parts of the brain that control the body in order to cause the body to damage/incapacitate itself. Since a cyborg's bodily functions are generally automated, they are immune to this type of attack. The command potential being accessed by the attacking power simply isn't in control of anything any more.

Now your making them completely immune to something they have a stated vulnerability to - how does this help?

B) The transformation to cyborg creates a sort of "spiritual buffer" from such attacks. The Cyborg, convinced he is immune to such manipulations, becomes immune to them. As a function of an OCC, this is similar to immunities to possession, horror factor, or certain kinds of damage. Psychically, cyborg becomes a different kind of being, neither alive nor dead, neither man nor machine. As such, they enjoy special perks unique to their "class".

Ripe for abuse, and again, your giving them immunities to their stated vulnerabilities.

C) Alternately, it can be a mistake in the abilities themselves. Perhaps such spells are written/created specifically with a primarily organic being in mind. Just like certain kinds of weapons are devastating against some opponents, but can be completely negated by the use of certain equipment or strategies. Would you use a poisonous toxin to stop your computer from running? No. You'd find something more in line with your current target and objective. This theory is similar to theory A), with the caveat that a GM using this line of logic may allow specifically anti-Cyborg spells or psionics to be developed, if they see fit.

I can understand this line of thinking, but there are still those instances where this wouldn't make a difference - Mental Blast is an attack that targets the mind, which is still present in the Borg.

Posted: **Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:12 pm**

Malakai wrote:My mistake on using the term flesh-and-blood - there, are indeed other targets, such as golems, elementals, and such.

However, given the two targets in question, a Borg and a TI Robot, the ONLY difference between the two would be the brain actually being present in the Borg. That makes them a valid target. What other reason than the target has to be living?

You lost me.
It sounds like you're saying that the target has to be living, but also that the target can be a golem or elemental.

Actually, the spell passage doesn't say that it wouldn't work on that severed arm. There is a kind of indication in that direction by the fact that death bolts can pass through armor, but that could well also just mean that they have a really good ability to hit their targets.

But it does say that it wouldn't work - it doesn't work on machines. what is an unattached bionic limb, other than a piece of machinery?

Hm. Good point.
The more I look at it, the more the spell description is just messed up.
A gear connected to a bunch of other gears is part of a machine, so the spell wouldn't work.
That same gear lying loose on the ground is no longer part of a machine, so apparently the spell would work going by the spell as written (since nothing ever actually restricts it to living beings).

Let's put this another way - I am saying that the absence of HP for a Borg was a mistake, and they should be included. Saying that they shouldn't be listed because they are not present is begging the question, because the question revolves around whether they should or shouldn't be listed, not whether they are or are not.

Let me put this another way- the writers of the game have decided that Borgs should not have Hit Points, and they deliberately wrote their game that way.
Borgs are their creations, existing solely within a set of rules that they created.
So how is it that borgs "should have Hit Points?"

It clearly wasn't a mistake in the sense that it's just something they forgot- it was a deliberate move.
You can say that it was a bad strategy on the part of the writers, but the burden is on you to support that, and so far all I can see is that it's an unnecessary move that would cause more issues than it would resolve, for no gain.

And I am disagreeing with you.
The actual rule, that Borgs are MDC creatures, is far more workable and requires a lot less effort.

And yet here we are.
A lot less effort? write "HP:", Roll a few dice, and write that number next to it. Wa-la, there you go.

AND either decide not to use the optional impact rules, or come up with some excuses why borgs are immune to impact damage.
AND/OR come up with some excuse why a Borg would use different rules for HP than other characters, giving a brain and bit of spinal cord the same HP as a full human.
AND do the same for Fury Beetles and other MDC creatures with SDC parts where the HP/SDC isn't listed.

Far more workable? Well, might as well just ignore the part about them having any biology at all, and just call them robots - that is, in effect, what you are suggesting anyways. Far more workable, indeed.

Nope.
I'd call them "Borgs."
They're not robots, but they're not just machines either.
They're people with mechanical bodies.
You know- cyborgs.

It's better, IMO, to put forth a modicum of effort in order to provide a richer, more detailed game than to just pare everything down to "whatever's easiest"

Sure, but not if the details don't make sense, and giving a brain the full HP of a human being simply does not make sense.
That's not adding richness- it's creating a new inconsistency in order to resolve the problem of there being an inconsistency.

My rule is to go with whatever makes sense, and giving a borg's brain and spinal cord the full value of HP simply makes no sense at all.

Depends on if you use the optional impact rules. If you do, then it would be quite common.
If not, then it would depend entirely on how common certain psionic, magic, and tech attacks are.

As stated, I am NOT applying the impact rules to Borgs, and neither are you, so it's a non-issue.

Do you apply the impact rules to non-borgs?
If so, why not to Borgs as well? That would be inconsistent.
If it's because of your house-rule that borgs have extra padding and such, how's that pulled-out-of-a-hat house-rule any better than the pulled-out-of-a-hat house-rule that borgs are so melded with their mechanical bodies that their bodies are considered part of a living being in some cases?

And I DO apply the impact rules to borgs- it's just that it doesn't matter because they're MDC creatures.

It wasn't overlooked. They looked at it, and the solution was that Borgs are considered MDC creatures.

And yet you say they overlooked TIs when writing up Death Bolt. I think we can both agree that no author can take into account every situation or possibility when they are writing the rules. And even when they do make the attempt, with blanket statements, there may be instances where even those don't really apply.

Which means it's just as likely that they forgot to include TI Robots on the list of valid targets as they did forget to include HP for Borgs. Both seem (to the respective proponents; Myself for the Borg, you for the TI) to be cases where the author did not take into account a very small selection of possible exceptions.

Except that Kevin has flat-out publicly stated that Borgs are MDC creatures- it's not a matter of him forgetting anything, it's a matter of him making that conscious decision.

Correct; just like the rest of us.
Really? Aside from a few screws in my leg, I don't have anything non-living as part of my body.

So you're completely bald, with no fingernails or toenails?
And you're missing the outer layer of your skin?

No offense, but EW.
:eek:

If the non-living material is armor or such, sure.
If it's part of the living creature's body, not so much.

So I 'jack into my armor - now it's suddenly taking the damage instead of me?

Only if that makes it part of your body.

Where are you drawing the line? This kind of reasoning brings forth a whole slew of issues.

I'm drawing the line at cybernetics and bionics.
If jacking into a suit of power armor makes it so it's considered part of your body- reducing PPE, interfering with magic, etc., then it's part of your body.
If not, then not.

Now you're begging the question; who says that TIs are a closer melding than Borgs?

Page 14 of Rifts Sourcebook One, Revised, "In some ways, this may sound like a full conversion cyborg, but the process is far more dramatic and complete, leaving absolutely no organic brain, tissue, organs, or fluid." emphasis mine

"Dramatic and complete" does not equal "closer melding."

Don't have to- I know what it means.
Why don't you look up "stating a truism."
A = A.
Simple fact, not a logical fallacy- no matter how much you think that A really should equal ~A.

Then your ignoring the issue - I never said that they HAVE listed HP, I stated that they SHOULD.

And I have disagreed.

Stating that they DON'T have HP listed is redundant, since we BOTH agree that it's not listed. When you use that AS A REASON IT SHOULDN'T BE LISTED, that's when you are begging the question.

I don't believe that I have ever stated "they don't have a HP listed" as evidence that they shouldn't, only that they don't- just like any other MDC creature, including other MDC creatures with SDC components. That's how the system works- change if for borgs, you need to change it for fury beetles and other stuff as well.
Also, that it's not a matter of the non-existence of a rule granting them HP- it's a matter of there actually being a rule denying them HP.
If you grant them HP, you are not just creating a new rule, you are ignoring an existing rule.

9)When the "some things" include "sustaining a 20 mph impact," "falling 20' or more,"
\
Which BOTH of us agree shouldn't apply to Borgs

Not exactly.
Those rules don't normally apply to MDC creatures, because MDC creatures don't have Hit Points.
IF you give Borgs Hit Points, then the impact rules should certainly apply to them.

relatively common weapons (this is for Phase World, where phase beams and Borgs are both relatively common)
Common weapons? The only Nation or group that can build or service them in any appreciable amount (i.e. beyond the workings of an individual person) is Phase World. 1 Planet, in the entirety of the 3 Galaxies. Doesn't sound too common to me.

Really?
The planet Phase World doesn't often come up when you play the game Phase World...?
It's featured in every session I've played of that particular game, directly or indirectly.

Unless you want to make up additional rules (like giving Borgs the same HP as a person with a full body) to try to prop up the unnecessary rule that they have HP in the first place.

doesn't seem so unnecessary to me.

What would make it necessary?
The game plays just fine without that rule.
It's no more realistic to say, "The Biological components of Borgs- the brains, spinal cords, and sometimes tongues- are just a durable as a complete human being, to the point that if you could take the brain out of the housing and shoot it with a .45 automatic, there's a good chance that it would still be conscious and functioning. Also, the SDC components are completely shielded from concussive and impact damage."
than it is to say,
"Borgs are living beings with mechanical bodies- their cybernetics and bionics are so closely melded with their biological components they count as part of the living being in a number of situations."

People can and do play the game just fine without giving borgs Hit Points.
All that adding HP seems to do is create more mental juggling and rationalizations.
So what would make that rule necessary?

Volleys of 4+ LRMs are pretty darned rare in my games.
Falling 20' or getting hit by a spell are not.

We could change that to Short-Range or even Mini-Missiles, if you'd prefer - the issue is the same. Hell, we can even go to Fusion blocks.

Sure, but then you have a chance to dodge.

It's very easy to die with Mega-Damage.

Not so easy that a 20' fall should kill you, or getting hit by a 20 mph car, or a single well-placed spell- not if you're a mega-damage creature.

It's also very easy to die with direct-to-HP damage as well. You seem to have a problem with having these threaten a Borg specifically, when they are just as much a threat to anyone else equally, so game balance in this instance doesn't apply.

Because the only way that those things are "just as much a threat to anyone else equally" is to ignore some rules, and to pull a bunch of HP out of nowhere and give them to the Borg instead of going with either the logical conclusion that a brain should only have 1-2 HP maximum or going with the technical rule that a Borg would only have 1d6 HP per level since their PE is zero, and that they'd DIE at -1 HP instead of lapsing into a coma, since their PE is zero.

In order to strive for realism, and get the equality that you claim is there, you have to claim that a brain has the same capacity to take damage as the entire human body normally does.
And that's not realism.
You're trying to solve the questionable with the absurd.

Borgs aren't sentient robots.
I have two responses: Your point?

The fact that sentient robots are affected one way by Telemechanics doesn't have any bearing on how Borgs are.

or, So stop treating them like sentient robots and stop ignoring the living brain inside.

I'm not doing either of those things.
My views specifically deny that they are robots, and specifically rely on their living brains.

Now you're talking game logistics- you don't see the need for the rule, so why have it even though it would be the realistic way things would work IF Borgs' bodies were simply machines just like any other.
That's cool- but if you think it's kosher to not have a rule simply because there's no need for it, what's with the drive to give Borgs HP just to be used in a set of circumstances that you see as being rare? Especially when there's already a rule in place that covers those situations?

Because the given rules are inadequate, or at the very least, ignore part of what make a Borg a Borg - namely, the human mind inside.

How do you feel that the given rules ignore the fact that Borgs have a human mind inside?
As far as I can tell, the given rules rely on them.

Following your interpretation, there is VERY little game-mechanical difference between TI and a Borg (so little as to be non-existent).

Actually, there are quite a few differences.
TIs, for example, can have psychic powers.
Borgs, on the other hand, cannot- and possess certain immunities to psionics that TIs don't have.
The only thing that they really have in common is that they are both living beings with mechanical bodies.

What you're suggesting requires the hardware to change some inherent aspect of itself - which can lead to a form of Theseus' Ship

And?

So where do you draw the line?

So you're countering Theseus' Ship with Loki's Wager?
:-D

I 'jack in to a computer - is that computer now "alive" because it's connected to living being? No? Then what's the difference between those connections and the connections between the brain-case and the Borg body?

The computer isn't cybernetic or bionic.
It's not attached to you on such a level that it interferes with your PPE, psychic abilities, etc.
Somebody can use TM on that computer, and it will work- because it's not part of your body, unlike with cybernetics and bionics.

Posted: **Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:21 am**

Rogue_Scientist wrote:W-w-w-w-w-wall of Quote Box'd!!!!!!

Yeah.. sorry about that.

Posted: **Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:39 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Rogue_Scientist wrote:W-w-w-w-w-wall of Quote Box'd!!!!!!

Yeah.. sorry about that.

Me too - inevitable when you prefer longer, more detailed responses. I try and either paraphrase them every so often or leave them out altogether and just refer by numbers, but sometimes that can get confusing. I also noticed it's worse the more you split up the quotes. At work (and almost ready to leave) right now, so I'll have to get back to this later for a full response . . . and I'll try and trim it as much as possible.

Again, sorry for the length

Posted: **Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:30 pm**

Munchkin Slappin GM wrote:I was just reading though RUE and got to the borg and noticed the are impervious to hit point attacks,thats cool. Then I thought about the necromancy spell Death Bolt which is a hit-point attack. Now, if a borg is now a MD being, the bolt should effect the borg, but since the borg is more like a MD construct one could argue that the spell does not effect the borg at all.

So my question to the forum here is, does the spell Death Bolt effect borgs.

I let borgs have a PE score,and roll hit points and SDC as usual,but not gain hp upon leveling.This reflects what they were before becoming a borg. I would rule that Death Bolt does half damage to borgs.

Posted: **Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:43 pm**

Benly wrote:A little surprised this hasn't come up yet, but from the FAQ Index about Armor, Cybernetics, Equipment, and Weapons:

The FAQ wrote:9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.

It's not the Official Word Of God or anything, but it's probably worthy of consideration and mention in this argument.

Not so much- that FAQ needs to be updated.
Here's some of the history of the debate:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39249
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40226

The debate ended about here:
Subject: Does a 'Borg have SDC/HP?

Lynx8882 wrote:KevinS finnally answered this question becuase Tink asked it during the chat at nokia

Borgs are MDC being they have no Hp or SDC period

Lynx

He's referring to this:

redrum: tinker_dragoon asks: This has been kicking around on the Palladium Books forums for awhile now, and I can't take it anymore. Do Rifts Cyborgs have Hit Points and S.D.C. or not?
wini: congested... please don't sing!
fuchikoma42: Thank You Kevin and Design Team. You have been great, and I hope you all do well in your endeavors.
lynx8882: lol nice one Tink
kevinsiembieda: No full conversion 'borgs are Mega-Damage beings
webnet10years: lol
zylo: lol, I was trying not to ask that, tinker
nodoz: GO PISTONS !!!
kevinsiembieda: MDC only

Posted: **Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:34 pm**

I'm going to take a rare stance here and agree with KC. I prefer to go with canon material as usual. Borg's are MDC and no longer HP/SDC. The point on psionic powers or magic that affects the mind is just that- affects are not the damage. You can use psionic invisibility, mental possession, radiate HF, psychosomatic disease, mind wipe, mind bond, hypnotic suggestion, empathic transmission, telepathy, etc... these do not actually do damage.

As for phase beamers, they would bypass any "worn" armor such as the LE-B1 through HI-B3 types and do damage to the character actual MDC body. The cyborg is a MDC creature now and will take damage as such.

Cyborg's are still able to be dealt with fairly easily and it is good that they are not able to be killed with some instant kills.

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