Forums of the Megaverse®

grandmaster z0b wrote:I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

Munchkin Slappin GM wrote:

Balabanto wrote:I treat it as S.C.A.R.S. or the equivalent.

??? care to explain,please. PM me if you must.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

csbioborg wrote:you should watch a boxer with really good head movement spar a guy that isn't that great

you'll see why autododge is reasonable

its not a matter of speed but of skill

grandmaster z0b wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

Actually I find it hard to understand how much better it is comparatively. Every other class that gets auto-dodge has Super-human reflexes, which generally have a severe cost; Juicers die and Crazies go crazy, Grey Seers get it because they can see the future but they are also pacifists. However all of a sudden a guy that's in the army gets to learn a skill that makes him the equivalent of these superhumans with no drawback?

To me it's like introducing a skill that all of sudden allowed you to do MD punches without any sort of magic, psychic or tech powers. For me that's the real power creep, I don't mind guns and spells that do more damage; that's an arms race, but these new skills that have all the advantages but none of the disadvantages they annoy me.

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:

Dustin Fireblade wrote:

grandmaster z0b wrote:I personally only apply the Commando auto-dodge to hand to hand combat rather than ranged combat. It's a house rule but it seems silly that all of a sudden commandos have the same super human reflexes as a Juicer or Crazy.

I think of it as superior combat training allowing anticipation far better than most soldiers.

Actually I find it hard to understand how much better it is comparatively. Every other class that gets auto-dodge has Super-human reflexes, which generally have a severe cost; Juicers die and Crazies go crazy, Grey Seers get it because they can see the future but they are also pacifists. However all of a sudden a guy that's in the army gets to learn a skill that makes him the equivalent of these superhumans with no drawback?

To me it's like introducing a skill that all of sudden allowed you to do MD punches without any sort of magic, psychic or tech powers. For me that's the real power creep, I don't mind guns and spells that do more damage; that's an arms race, but these new skills that have all the advantages but none of the disadvantages they annoy me.

But doesn't it create parity amongst the OCC's though? Normal humans can now get the ability with this skill, and it's a expensive skill to get to just select few combat OCC's. How many OCC's actually start with this skill anyway? I can only think of three off top of my head (CS Commando and Special Forces, and the Paratrooper). And it's really not that high of a bonus when compared to what the augmented OCC's could end up with.

Also, going way back to Conversion Book 1, the original at least, the section on dodging provides the Rifts players two options for considering how dodge works - both are quite valid. Now those with auto-dodge via Commando HtH simply take it to another level because of their training.

Lastly, I do agree with you in principle - all the HtH skills grant a particular move at some level, and a lot of them get a +2, +3 or maybe even higher right off the bat. I'd prefer a system where the bonus are gained more gradually.

Balabanto wrote:The answer is, it DOESN'T provide parity with Juicer and Crazy autododge because Automatic Dodge itself is just a maneuver that doesn't cost you an action. Crazies and Juicers can autododge even if they CAN'T see it coming. Big difference.

Balabanto wrote:The answer is, it DOESN'T provide parity with Juicer and Crazy autododge because Automatic Dodge itself is just a maneuver that doesn't cost you an action. Crazies and Juicers can autododge even if they CAN'T see it coming. Big difference.

Shadow Wyrm wrote:I think that might be part of the problem with Commando auto-dodge, the ability has a fuzzy discription for the commando. A small note in the HTH commando text might solve this debate in the future.

csbioborg wrote:seriously at the end of the day you need the CS to be able to stand up to Mystic knights and Magnus
which get ridicoulous bonunes and extra attacks especially in the case of the battle magus

this arguement coulod be mre readily used on the battle magnus better than the CS Commando

csbioborg wrote:well not really
at the end of the day we are discussing how a normal albiet very well trained person is getting similar bonunes to a augemented person like a juicer

a commando is getting it through autododge
a magnus is getting it though many extra attacks and other bonues

grandmaster z0b wrote:

csbioborg wrote:well not really
at the end of the day we are discussing how a normal albiet very well trained person is getting similar bonunes to a augemented person like a juicer

a commando is getting it through autododge
a magnus is getting it though many extra attacks and other bonues

Actually I agree that a magus get's too many bonuses, especially post-RUE when they can cast quicker. At least they have a reason behind it though, they are augmented through magic.

SamtheDagger wrote:From RUE 344:
"Automatic Dodge: Certain characters and creatures are able to automatically dodge an attack without using up a melee attack/action. It is purely a defensive move in which the dodger bobs, weaves, bends or twists his body out of harm's way. Roll for a dodge as normal (the automatic dodge is not an "automatic" success). An automatic dodge works Just like a (automatic) parry in that the act of dodging does not use up an attack to perform. Bonuses to auto-dodge come from the character's P.P. attribute and any special bonus specifically for it (the bonus, skill or enhancement will say "automatic dodge"). Unless it specifically says a character has an Automatic Dodge, he does NOT."

Hopefully that clears up the issue of whether or not auto-dodge = Juicer/Crazy auto-dodge. It's just a free action. Normal auto-dodge does not let you dodge attacks from behind or surprise attacks. Add to that an auto-dodge is almost always lower than a character's normal dodge or parry bonus plus the auto-dodge bonus from HTH: Commando is always lower than Juicer/Crazy auto-dodge and not gained until level 5. And how many O.C.C.s actually get access to HTH: Commando? Only 3 in the main book (and that's counting the Crazy who already gets auto-dodge). Sure there are others, but clearly this is not a common skill.

So what's with all the whining?