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Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

You mean like some of the healing psionics do in thier own way?

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

Why would there be?

Why should there be? instead of spells that just heal?

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

My Healing waters do that. It is found near the beginning of the Invented spells topic.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

Why would there be?

Why should there be? instead of spells that just heal?

Because why do a heal spell for 2d6 instantly ..

When if there were healing over time spells ..

They could do .. 2d6 healing .. over a duration of 2-5 melee's ..

Which would you pick ?

I for myself would choose the Duration heal to the instant heal ..

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

Why would there be?

Why should there be? instead of spells that just heal?

Because why do a heal spell for 2d6 instantly ..

When if there were healing over time spells ..

They could do .. 2d6 healing .. over a duration of 2-5 melee's ..

Which would you pick ?

I for myself would choose the Duration heal to the instant heal ..

No, what I mean is, why heal 2d6 every 2-5 melees, rather than a spell that heals 2d4*10 all at once?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

Why would there be?

Why should there be? instead of spells that just heal?

Because why do a heal spell for 2d6 instantly ..

When if there were healing over time spells ..

They could do .. 2d6 healing .. over a duration of 2-5 melee's ..

Which would you pick ?

I for myself would choose the Duration heal to the instant heal ..

No, what I mean is, why heal 2d6 every 2-5 melees, rather than a spell that heals 2d4*10 all at once?

Because Heals over time .. can do that .. as well as heal the rest over time.

Every time I've seen a Heal over Time .. they 90% of the time are heals that heal better then a regular heal ..

Think 2d4x10 vs 2d4x10 per melee round for 2-3 melee rounds ..

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

Why would there be?

Why should there be? instead of spells that just heal?

Because why do a heal spell for 2d6 instantly ..

When if there were healing over time spells ..

They could do .. 2d6 healing .. over a duration of 2-5 melee's ..

Which would you pick ?

I for myself would choose the Duration heal to the instant heal ..

No, what I mean is, why heal 2d6 every 2-5 melees, rather than a spell that heals 2d4*10 all at once?

Because Heals over time .. can do that .. as well as heal the rest over time.

Every time I've seen a Heal over Time .. they 90% of the time are heals that heal better then a regular heal ..

Think 2d4x10 vs 2d4x10 per melee round for 2-3 melee rounds ..

What'd be the point of that? Combats in palladium don't last that long, and if it does, it's your armor taking most of the damage. The only things that can survive that much damage round after round are stuff that Bio-Regeneartes every round ANYWAY.

Nekira Sudacne wrote: What'd be the point of that? Combats in palladium don't last that long, and if it does, it's your armor taking most of the damage. The only things that can survive that much damage round after round are stuff that Bio-Regeneartes every round ANYWAY.

The way I look at it is like this .

We get Supernatural Strength spell

We get Supernatural PE spell ..

We get MDC Armor spells ..

Why not get a regenerative spell ?

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: What'd be the point of that? Combats in palladium don't last that long, and if it does, it's your armor taking most of the damage. The only things that can survive that much damage round after round are stuff that Bio-Regeneartes every round ANYWAY.

The way I look at it is like this .

We get Supernatural Strength spell

We get Supernatural PE spell ..

We get MDC Armor spells ..

Why not get a regenerative spell ?

Because mages have better things to spend months of study time on than a spell that will never be useful

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: What'd be the point of that? Combats in palladium don't last that long, and if it does, it's your armor taking most of the damage. The only things that can survive that much damage round after round are stuff that Bio-Regeneartes every round ANYWAY.

The way I look at it is like this .

We get Supernatural Strength spell

We get Supernatural PE spell ..

We get MDC Armor spells ..

Why not get a regenerative spell ?

Because mages have better things to spend months of study time on than a spell that will never be useful

May not be useful to them typically but it could certainly be useful if they were a LLW that focuses on healing and the likes. Mind you ...... there aren't alot of spells for that in general that would allow a LLW to focus on being a healer to start with.......

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: What'd be the point of that? Combats in palladium don't last that long, and if it does, it's your armor taking most of the damage. The only things that can survive that much damage round after round are stuff that Bio-Regeneartes every round ANYWAY.

The way I look at it is like this .

We get Supernatural Strength spell

We get Supernatural PE spell ..

We get MDC Armor spells ..

Why not get a regenerative spell ?

Because mages have better things to spend months of study time on than a spell that will never be useful

May not be useful to them typically but it could certainly be useful if they were a LLW that focuses on healing and the likes. Mind you ...... there aren't alot of spells for that in general that would allow a LLW to focus on being a healer to start with.......

Again, nothing that a heal over time spell does that's useful compared to a simpler "Heal more at once" spell.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: What'd be the point of that? Combats in palladium don't last that long, and if it does, it's your armor taking most of the damage. The only things that can survive that much damage round after round are stuff that Bio-Regeneartes every round ANYWAY.

The way I look at it is like this .

We get Supernatural Strength spell

We get Supernatural PE spell ..

We get MDC Armor spells ..

Why not get a regenerative spell ?

Because mages have better things to spend months of study time on than a spell that will never be useful

May not be useful to them typically but it could certainly be useful if they were a LLW that focuses on healing and the likes. Mind you ...... there aren't alot of spells for that in general that would allow a LLW to focus on being a healer to start with.......

Again, nothing that a heal over time spell does that's useful compared to a simpler "Heal more at once" spell.

Typically though iirc the psionics give a heal at once then increase your natural healing as well for a duration of time. I think thats more what he's is looking for...that woudl be better than just a heal at once spell.

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Again, nothing that a heal over time spell does that's useful compared to a simpler "Heal more at once" spell.

Think like this ..

Cast a Heal over Time spell on your self .. then wade into the battle ..

Its like you have a regenerative ability for a certain amount of time ..

Where can any instantly heal now spells do the same thing ?

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Again, nothing that a heal over time spell does that's useful compared to a simpler "Heal more at once" spell.

Think like this ..

Cast a Heal over Time spell on your self .. then wade into the battle ..

Its like you have a regenerative ability for a certain amount of time ..

Where can any instantly heal now spells do the same thing ?

Where would that be useful, your an SDC being if you get hit your dead regardless of regeneration.

OR your an MDC being, in which case, you probablly already have bio-regeneration which already does that.

So basically, either it's useless, or it's redundtant. Again, this is not WoW where your taking damage constantly. Your likely either not really taking damage at all, or it's all to your armor and not to you. In ally my years of gaming I have never once had a situation where my personal HP and SDC was ever getting hit to a reliable extent. It simply dosn't happen.

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:
The way I look at it is like this .

We get Supernatural Strength spell

We get Supernatural PE spell ..

We get MDC Armor spells ..

Why not get a regenerative spell ?

Because mages have better things to spend months of study time on than a spell that will never be useful

May not be useful to them typically but it could certainly be useful if they were a LLW that focuses on healing and the likes. Mind you ...... there aren't alot of spells for that in general that would allow a LLW to focus on being a healer to start with.......

Again, nothing that a heal over time spell does that's useful compared to a simpler "Heal more at once" spell.

Typically though iirc the psionics give a heal at once then increase your natural healing as well for a duration of time. I think thats more what he's is looking for...that woudl be better than just a heal at once spell.

No, there's one psionic that heals yourself a flat amount, another that heals others a flat amount, and a third psionic that doubles your natural rate of healing. For most people, that's 4 HP a day instead of 2.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
No, there's one psionic that heals yourself a flat amount, another that heals others a flat amount, and a third psionic that doubles your natural rate of healing. For most people, that's 4 HP a day instead of 2.

You're right..... but a instant heal that includes with increased healing over time after it could be usefull......

On a side note - I like debating with you Nekira....it is thoroughly enjoyable even if we are typically on opposite sides

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Again, nothing that a heal over time spell does that's useful compared to a simpler "Heal more at once" spell.

Think like this ..

Cast a Heal over Time spell on your self .. then wade into the battle ..

Its like you have a regenerative ability for a certain amount of time ..

Where can any instantly heal now spells do the same thing ?

Where would that be useful, your an SDC being if you get hit your dead regardless of regeneration.

OR your an MDC being, in which case, you probablly already have bio-regeneration which already does that.

So basically, either it's useless, or it's redundtant. Again, this is not WoW where your taking damage constantly. Your likely either not really taking damage at all, or it's all to your armor and not to you. In ally my years of gaming I have never once had a situation where my personal HP and SDC was ever getting hit to a reliable extent. It simply dosn't happen.

Seems ot me this type of spell might find more use in Palladium Fantasy or maybe Heroes Unlimited but I am thinking more that it woudl be very limited value in Rifts.....

the reason for using a 'Increased healing speed" spell would be it would be lower in cost then the "heal you all at once" spell.

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Lenwen wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote: Again, nothing that a heal over time spell does that's useful compared to a simpler "Heal more at once" spell.

Think like this ..

Cast a Heal over Time spell on your self .. then wade into the battle ..

Its like you have a regenerative ability for a certain amount of time ..

Where can any instantly heal now spells do the same thing ?

Where would that be useful, your an SDC being if you get hit your dead regardless of regeneration.

OR your an MDC being, in which case, you probablly already have bio-regeneration which already does that.

So basically, either it's useless, or it's redundtant. Again, this is not WoW where your taking damage constantly. Your likely either not really taking damage at all, or it's all to your armor and not to you. In ally my years of gaming I have never once had a situation where my personal HP and SDC was ever getting hit to a reliable extent. It simply dosn't happen.

Seems ot me this type of spell might find more use in Palladium Fantasy or maybe Heroes Unlimited but I am thinking more that it woudl be very limited value in Rifts.....

Palladium Fantasy is also largely armor reliant: if your taking hits to your SDC you probablly don't have long to live.

There's a good point to Heros Unlimited. there you CAN find bricks with hundreds or thousands of SDC that could realy benifit from a heal over time spell.

Largely, I think such magics are not considered because most of the ones available in the games are reactionary in nature. I’m being attacked, put up Ithan… I need to shoot, throw a fireball. I’m hurt, kiss it and make it better. It’s all about instant gratification… “Patch me up and get me back into the fight.” A lot of it is old school DnD thinking, where everything happens Now, Now, Now. No one’s willing to sacrifice a little time. Just throw more power at the situation.

So why would we want heal over time type spells… Because while they may not take you from dead to healed in 10 seconds, such slower acting spells become far more efficient. Why else are dragons so powerful? They take a beating, and when they know they’re in trouble, they take off, lick their wounds and a day later (assuming limbs are intact) they can come back for more. Of course, in environments like Rifts, it’s basically pointless to even magic powered mortals… We’re just too blasted squishy.

So then why bother at all? Because in the real world, people would use any tool that helped make things like survival more possible, and especially if it were more efficient. For instance, which would you use, a spell that you needed large amounts of energy to cast to heal a single target from death to unmarked, or use that same energy to cast enough spells to allow 10 or 20 soldiers to recover at the same time, over a half an hour to an hour? Let’s look at serious injuries, like amputations…

The average Joe can typically expect a hard life (Assuming he survived) following the complete severing of one or more limbs. This harsh expectancy is lessened as the advances of the culture become more plentiful. A century and a half ago, men lost their lives not just from the wounds, but from some of the medical procedures used to try and help them live. Prosthetics in this modern age have come a long way, but are still far from what we see in movies like Starship Troopers, or the Six-million Dollar man… Even presented with the advanced reality of Rifts or Phaseworld, people generally have two alternatives, Mechanical or Biosystem replacements. Oddly, even the Splicers game doesn’t show much ability to regenerate body parts of people. So that leaves magic.

But hold the phone… There’s only two real spells for anything like Regeneration anywhere in Palladium’s books… Restoration and Ley Line Restoration. Both are instant fixes, but with huge costs and some serious drawbacks. Restoration will heal a target to full and purge him of all poisons and diseases, but missing limbs can only be reattached with it, and completely vaped or destroyed organs are completely SOL… and then there’s the cost.

For an upgrade, see Ley Line Restoration… three times the ppe cost AND needs a Ley Line or Nexus to cast… And the Caster better be a good friend, because the additional PERMENENT costs to caster and recipient are insane. After looking at such costs, spending a month in downtime to grow back an arm or something really doesn’t seem like a bad price.

This “reactionary” nature to magic really doesn’t seem like a good idea. Sometimes it helps to be proactive, like the spell Sustain (a day per level, air, food, water, and ¾ of your daily rest). Why more proactive spells are not in use is beyond me. Heck, in one game, I had a 1st level character take the time to develop a spell (using the rules in Through the Looking Glass Darkly). Using those charts, he lucked out still succeeding even in failure. The results were still spectacular. Re-enforce the body to withstand the Supernatural, and be read all the time. At least when his body armor was ripped off his body, he could surprise SN beasties by beating them into the ground with his own two fists.

Basically, more proactive and long term magics need to be developed. Eventually I’m going to get my essay on the subject and Regenerative tech and magic done.

Additionally, a spell like “Healing Waters” is really good not because of its healing over time effect, but because multiple people can benefit from the same casting in the area of effect.. As well, a die 4 every melee round may not seem like much, but if it’s on you before the battle even gets going and you get dropped negative, that die 4 can keep you from further bleeding out, and even have you positive again in a few minutes.

Oh, I certainly agree that spells that heal many people at once and spells that regenerate missing limbs/organs cheeply are sorely needed. However, they arn't what was being discussed. the OP only suggested a spell that heals X over about a single minutes time, which IS more inefficent than insta-heal spells. Nither mentioned Healing many at once, or regenerating lost limbs as a cost of taking longer to do so, and both of which I agree, but arn't the actual question I was asking

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Oh, I certainly agree that spells that heal many people at once and spells that regenerate missing limbs/organs cheeply are sorely needed. However, they arn't what was being discussed. the OP only suggested a spell that heals X over about a single minutes time, which IS more inefficent than insta-heal spells. Nither mentioned Healing many at once, or regenerating lost limbs as a cost of taking longer to do so, and both of which I agree, but arn't the actual question I was asking

Actually Nekire, I think he was discussing spells that woudl give you increased healing over time but more than aminute. Sort of an enhaced healing for hours (1d6 sdc per hour or sumsuch I would imagine) not just during combat but I could be misunderstanding, been a little bit since i was fully engrossed in this topic..

jaymz wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Oh, I certainly agree that spells that heal many people at once and spells that regenerate missing limbs/organs cheeply are sorely needed. However, they arn't what was being discussed. the OP only suggested a spell that heals X over about a single minutes time, which IS more inefficent than insta-heal spells. Nither mentioned Healing many at once, or regenerating lost limbs as a cost of taking longer to do so, and both of which I agree, but arn't the actual question I was asking

Actually Nekire, I think he was discussing spells that woudl give you increased healing over time but more than aminute. Sort of an enhaced healing for hours (1d6 sdc per hour or sumsuch I would imagine) not just during combat but I could be misunderstanding, been a little bit since i was fully engrossed in this topic..

Lenwen wrote:Why are there no healing spells that grant Xd4/6 amount of healing for X amount of melee's ?

No, he was specifically only refering to Melee's during combat. There's no two ways to interpret the OP.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:No, he was specifically only refering to Melee's during combat. There's no two ways to interpret the OP.

Generally in video games, heal over time spells are not (of course) instant heal spells but are more mana efficient and heal more than an instant spell. He could argue that, which isn't such a bad idea.

A spell that heals 2D6 per melee for 5 melees would probably heal around the same as 1d4x10, but would be more ppe efficient. For combat, it may not be very effective, but after combat it would be better.

If I were to do a combat Heal over time, I'd make it something akin to "every time the recipient of this spell is hit (takes actual SDC/HP or MDC damage) the spell triggers and heals 1D6 SDC/HP/MD (depending on setting and level of spell). Spell lasts x amount of melee rounds or after x amount of charges.

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:No, he was specifically only refering to Melee's during combat. There's no two ways to interpret the OP.

Generally in video games, heal over time spells are not (of course) instant heal spells but are more mana efficient and heal more than an instant spell. He could argue that, which isn't such a bad idea.

A spell that heals 2D6 per melee for 5 melees would probably heal around the same as 1d4x10, but would be more ppe efficient. For combat, it may not be very effective, but after combat it would be better.

If I were to do a combat Heal over time, I'd make it something akin to "every time the recipient of this spell is hit (takes actual SDC/HP or MDC damage) the spell triggers and heals 1D6 SDC/HP/MD (depending on setting and level of spell). Spell lasts x amount of melee rounds or after x amount of charges.

All of which goes back to my initial point that it's extrodanrly rare for combat to last more than one melee round, two at the most, meaning the heal over time will never actually do anything useful.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:No, he was specifically only refering to Melee's during combat. There's no two ways to interpret the OP.

Generally in video games, heal over time spells are not (of course) instant heal spells but are more mana efficient and heal more than an instant spell. He could argue that, which isn't such a bad idea.

A spell that heals 2D6 per melee for 5 melees would probably heal around the same as 1d4x10, but would be more ppe efficient. For combat, it may not be very effective, but after combat it would be better.

If I were to do a combat Heal over time, I'd make it something akin to "every time the recipient of this spell is hit (takes actual SDC/HP or MDC damage) the spell triggers and heals 1D6 SDC/HP/MD (depending on setting and level of spell). Spell lasts x amount of melee rounds or after x amount of charges.

All of which goes back to my initial point that it's extrodanrly rare for combat to last more than one melee round, two at the most, meaning the heal over time will never actually do anything useful.

They usually last 4-5 melee rounds in the games i've played and run. over 5 if the 'big bad'

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:No, he was specifically only refering to Melee's during combat. There's no two ways to interpret the OP.

Generally in video games, heal over time spells are not (of course) instant heal spells but are more mana efficient and heal more than an instant spell. He could argue that, which isn't such a bad idea.

A spell that heals 2D6 per melee for 5 melees would probably heal around the same as 1d4x10, but would be more ppe efficient. For combat, it may not be very effective, but after combat it would be better.

If I were to do a combat Heal over time, I'd make it something akin to "every time the recipient of this spell is hit (takes actual SDC/HP or MDC damage) the spell triggers and heals 1D6 SDC/HP/MD (depending on setting and level of spell). Spell lasts x amount of melee rounds or after x amount of charges.

All of which goes back to my initial point that it's extrodanrly rare for combat to last more than one melee round, two at the most, meaning the heal over time will never actually do anything useful.

Heal over time for combat may not be useful, this is true.

But a heal over time spell (going with the video game thought line) generally fall in the "Heal more for less PPE". A great way to heal after combat, while using the least amount of PPE possible.

Reminds me of a sign I saw in a mechanic shop once.

"You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast".

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

dark brandon wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:No, he was specifically only refering to Melee's during combat. There's no two ways to interpret the OP.

Generally in video games, heal over time spells are not (of course) instant heal spells but are more mana efficient and heal more than an instant spell. He could argue that, which isn't such a bad idea.

A spell that heals 2D6 per melee for 5 melees would probably heal around the same as 1d4x10, but would be more ppe efficient. For combat, it may not be very effective, but after combat it would be better.

If I were to do a combat Heal over time, I'd make it something akin to "every time the recipient of this spell is hit (takes actual SDC/HP or MDC damage) the spell triggers and heals 1D6 SDC/HP/MD (depending on setting and level of spell). Spell lasts x amount of melee rounds or after x amount of charges.

All of which goes back to my initial point that it's extrodanrly rare for combat to last more than one melee round, two at the most, meaning the heal over time will never actually do anything useful.

Heal over time for combat may not be useful, this is true.

But a heal over time spell (going with the video game thought line) generally fall in the "Heal more for less PPE". A great way to heal after combat, while using the least amount of PPE possible.

Reminds me of a sign I saw in a mechanic shop once.

"You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast".

Sigged!

I'm fairly sure that unless the spell only healed one or two points at every instance of healing such a spell would cost more PPE than the ones they got now.

The Beast wrote:I'm fairly sure that unless the spell only healed one or two points at every instance of healing such a spell would cost more PPE than the ones they got now.

I wouldn't think that at all.

For example: Heal wounds: 3d6 sdc and 1d6 hp for 10 ppe (static). For the say 5 PPE, I could see a spell that heals 1D6 hp/sdc evey minute for x number of minutes, equal to the characters lvl. For the same cost (10 PPE) I could see the same spell except instead of minutes, every round. Heal wounds would still be a valuble thing to have (instant heal), but when out of combat (or expecting exceptionally long combat) the aformentioned HoT would work too.

I'd like a spell that heals 1D6 every hour, that lasts for 1 hour per level of caster if only because this would be a good thing to have on your soldiers right before a battle. Again, this won't save lives, but things like First aid kits would be a lot less necessary.

Only way a Heal over Time spell would be marginally useful is if it was attached to a heal bomb as a sort of after effect backup (or an incubating heal, after taking damage, heal X). If you found a Mend Metal over Time spell THAT would be the good part, cast before going into battle, keep those repair bills down.

Cinos wrote:Only way a Heal over Time spell would be marginally useful is if it was attached to a heal bomb as a sort of after effect backup (or an incubating heal, after taking damage, heal X). If you found a Mend Metal over Time spell THAT would be the good part, cast before going into battle, keep those repair bills down.

That would be useful too. But a spell that heals more for less PPE would be useful as well, especially if it has a long duration. Keep those medical bills down. This wouldn't nessessarily be useful in RIFTS unless it worked on MD creatures, but in a game like Beyond the Supernatural or heroes unlimited, this would be a very nice spell to have.

Not really, problem is in an SDC setting, the fights don't last long enough for it to be impactive. I rarely find Bio-Regeneration effects of most demons to really play a role in combat, and those are free in terms of casting time and P.P.E / I.S.P. Sure it might be ok after combat, but combat effectiveness out side of combat is a bit dis-congruent for clear reasons, I'd just as soon use Heal wounds and learn a different spell other then a HoT that's only occasionally helpful, preferable one that will avoid damage all together (Armor of Ithan and it's dozen of copy cat spells, Invulerability, Carpet, Deflect, dozens of wall spells, nets, etc).