Native American Classifications

[V-Origin]

Does anyone here feel that the Native American classifications into Modern, Traditionalist, Pure Ones/Ancients and Renegade groups are really silly?

Why can't a Native American use a laser gun and a fetish and have dual classes of Shaman and TW Wizard?

It is pretty silly, really.

[Elthbert]

I think the idea was that in order to master the traditional ways of Magic one had to reject modern things, to not be tainted with them. I mean this was just an over arching kind of idea, and is not entirely out of tradition with magic in general in palladium, lots of types of Magic users eschew technology.



Of course there is also that constant concern for some level of balance in the classes.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Does anyone here feel that the Native American classifications into Modern, Traditionalist, Pure Ones/Ancients and Renegade groups are really silly?

Why can't a Native American use a laser gun and a fetish and have dual classes of Shaman and TW Wizard?

It is pretty silly, really.

Considering the Native American gods "Strong Eagle" and "Bright Sky" don't have any objections to using modern weapons, yeah it's pretty silly.

But then again I've thrown out a lot of Spirit West.

[Shadow Wyrm]

I to am not a huge fan of the stricked classes of the Native Americans in Rift's, but I do like the classes for them in general. I would of liked to see 2 books on them myself, or atleast a couple of sourcebooks for Spirit West.

[V-Origin]

In my humble opinion, if you have one class for the modern techno junkies and another class for the magic-users, sooner or later, someone is gonna come up with a class or a culture who has both modern techno junkies and magic users.

I mean what's is there to prevent such a class or culture from existing?

At the very least, i envision a native american culture which embraces both shamanistic magic/fetishes and TW.

[V-Origin]

At the very least, i envision a native american culture which embraces both shamanistic magic/fetishes and TW.

Some Native Americans in Rifts Earth do exactly that...and subsequently find their shamanistic magic and fetishes fail. Clearly the Native American gods who grant power to shamans and fetishes don't want their followers to use such things.

I would love to know where in the Rifts books did it say that those Native Americans who used TW had their shamanistic magic and fetishes failing to work.

Also, it is not the Native American gods who grant power to the shamans and fetishes. The shamans obtained their power without signing any pacts with the Native American gods unlike a witch.

Also there are many, many spirits besides the Native American gods. Unless a fetish is specifically attuned to the power of a specific Native American god, say a Tomahawk of the Thunderbird, then that fetish belongs to the spirit of Thunderbird. And if Thunderbird dislikes its followers using technologies or TW, then it can prevent its fetish from working.

May I also quote from Spirit West. "fetish magic will work even if the character uses technology and is not a Traditionalist or Pure One."

I believe this is more than sufficient proof that TW and Native American Magic do mix and they do mix very well indeed.

[Proseksword]

I think more than anything, they were just trying to keep people from slathering Native American power armor in fetishes to pimp it out. The restrictions probably should be a bit looser. I think it's pretty funny that the cover shows Native American warriors on a hunt with laser rifles on hoverbikes protected only by fetish magic, yet according to the text that's pretty much unheard of/impossible.

[V-Origin]

I think more than anything, they were just trying to keep people from slathering Native American power armor in fetishes to pimp it out. The restrictions probably should be a bit looser. I think it's pretty funny that the cover shows Native American warriors on a hunt with laser rifles on hoverbikes protected only by fetish magic, yet according to the text that's pretty much unheard of/impossible.

That's the problem with RIfts, I guess. They would come up with all sorts of restrictions and rules and the next thing you know, there would be a new book flouting those restrictions/rules causing lots of ambiguity and confusion.

It is as if they are saying, we are the creators of Rifts. We are allowed to backtrack on anything we said before.

[V-Origin]

...

May I also quote from Spirit West. "fetish magic will work even if the character uses technology and is not a Traditionalist or Pure One."

I believe this is more than sufficient proof that TW and Native American Magic do mix and they do mix very well indeed.

Sure, I guess. It's not that hot a contention point with me. I just don't see techno-wizardry and shamanism as things that tend to go together hand-in-hand. I suppose it COULD be possible, just not at all likely. Most shamans shun technology, so why would they learn the most technologically-savvy magic? I mean, if you are going to shun technology, there really isn't a whole lot the Techno-Wizard O.C.C. has to offer you. I suppose a Traditionalist could make TW revolvers and single-shot rifles, but why? Modern Indians can do whatever they like, but then, they are pretty far removed from their roots for the most part.

I also thought I had read something about the Native Americans getting all their cool magic (and it is cool) by abstaining from most forms of modern technology and living with the land. I mean, isn't that what lots of Native Americans like to do? Sure, some of them build casinos and live in cities, but lots of them live in fairly modest accommodations on a reservation. Maybe I'm culturally ignorant, but I did take a couple of classes on Native American history in college (history major).

Just a couple of questions.

Would you agree with me that TW items are more magic than technology?

Would you also agree that there is no difference between one form of magic and another? I.e there is no difference between invocations magic and native american magic? No fundamental difference anyway?

[V-Origin]

2) I think there are very clear differences between many forms of magic. Not only in how it is generated (circles, fetishes, TW items, invoking a spell by gestures and words, performing a ritual, drawing lines, necromancy, biomancy, etc.), but also in what the individual wielder of magic thinks, feels, and believes about magic.

One could certainly say "all magic is powered by PPE so comes from the same place or at its core is fundamentally the same". I can see that perspective. However, I see that there is a wealth of differences, and those differences are eminently important. Language is universal among humanity, but look at the variety of languages. Yes, there are combinations and fusions, but the differences are so important that they can't be ignored or overlooked without significant problems in translation occurring.

I think a combination of fetish magic and TW magic is possible, and don't see it as particularly problematic. I do though see the various types/styles/forms of magic in the Megaverse as more than all fundamentally identical. Like I said, my.02.

PPE is the energy but the various forms of magic are nothing more than mere vehicles to materialize the energy into its final outcome.

So since they are mere vehicles, what is there to prevent the PPE energy from flowing through one form of magic or another?