Was HU designed so Major Comic heroes couldn't be made?

[jaymz]

Just curious if this was a set design goal is all.

I don't want to post up canon heroes like Supes or Spiderman, but in all honesty they cannot be made in the HU system. Not accurately at least.

When making something as an NPC encounter (take any major mutant or super from any of the companies) I would like to do at least somewhat within the rules of hte game but I am consistently finding that it cannot be done.

Is it just me or is that just the case with the system as it is set up?

[DtMK]

I've noticed it too, but with later supplements like Powers Unlimited, Heroes Unlimited HAS gotten better at making other power categories. Originally, I believe Kevin wanted it to be a thinking person's game, using one's wits and imagination along with powers to deal with a foe. Anybody can overpower or overwhelm a character with uber-powers, but it takes style and skill to outsmart them. At least that's what I believe the original goal was.

The Mega-Hero was a class made specifically for players wanting to make characters step up to what they're used to reading. Personally, I agree and would like to see a license deal to make more popular comic RPG's with Palladium again. One thing my players and I came across in our own games is, you can make a super powerful character using the mutant's power grows with age and experience table, and giving the character ALL their potential powers at a lower level. This simulates someone with alien physiology powered by a near infinite source, or some kind of adaptation to its environment, even cosmic levels with the space based powers in Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide. The potential is there to come close, but in a world where supremely powerful beings exist, who would want to play something as simple as a stage magician or martial artist? I believe the fear is that the game runs the risk of becoming unbalanced.

Me, I'm a power gamer, no doubt about it. But I like the soul of the characters, the depths of emotional interaction and breathing life into the characters to be just as essential as their abilities. If you're going to play a god, be larger than life! Stand by your moral choices and act like the hero or villain you wish to. Don't aspire to be someone that embodies the highest standard people can aspire to both in action and deed, then have your character pimp-slap a woman in character just because they saw it on The Boondocks last night.

The other standard is house ruling. If something doesn't fit or you can't find an exact class you want to make the character you have in mind, make your own and do it yourself at home. As far as the design goal, perhaps someone that works here would be better qualified to answer that.

[jaymz]

Well at least it isn't just me

Oh I have done up various comic book characters (the more powerful ones like Supes) for my own use, but they are so beyond broken game rule wise it quite laughable.

It's more my curiosity than anythig else on this matter.

[jaymz]

Yes.... Although it's probably more appropriate to ask if the Major Comic heroes were designed in a way that would be impossible to put them into an RPG. The longer a character is around, especially if readers demand that they always win, the more powerful they eventually become. Even poor Batman, completely without powers, couldn't resist the power creep.

A fairly high percentage of HU powers are clearly intended to emulate specific comic book characters, which is totally legal (as long as you don't call the power "Spider Sense" or "Power Ring").

Yeah I know but I'd still like to be able to do it somewhat legally....I knwo you can actually make wolverine sort of legally now.....sort of....but supes, spidey, and a lotof others...not a chance in hades...or dyval for that matter

[Steeler49er]

I've noticed it too, but with later supplements like Powers Unlimited, Heroes Unlimited HAS gotten better at making other power categories. Originally, I believe Kevin wanted it to be a thinking person's game, using one's wits and imagination along with powers to deal with a foe

A consept he destroys with his inclusion of "Invulnerability" in that same first book...



jaymz-"Was HU designed so Major Comic heroes couldn't be made?"
Answere: Maybe, but mostly it just worked out that way...

Palladium books has a very differant game system than other superhero RPG's in that ALL of HU's powers are "Pre-Generated" and not built (like in other games), and so for that reason you can not customize powers so as to fit the appearance of a super-character from a comic book...
HOWEVER-I have played many Other RPG's that DO allow for mass customization and 'even They' do not have enough customizational ability to copy paste characters from Other genres. For instance, I can NOT create Super Man using the very customizable ABERRANT/Trinity rpg system, but you can create universal stomping Super gods.
Marvel FASERIP allows you to create Whatever you want, but you are a munchkin for doing so, and If you use the point based system (generally around 200 points to start) it is seldom enough to do much...


SO if you wanna rip the comics for a character, and you can't find the powers that you want in PU1,3 and the Mainbook, or on Dan's HU page, or on Brett Hegrs Page, Or NMI-Black Vault (With SG & Iczers 10,000 power)... Then just make up the darn thing like PB & Kevin does ever-so-often in the books.

It ISssss your game after all

[Danger]

Just curious if this was a set design goal is all.

I don't want to post up canon heroes like Supes or Spiderman, but in all honesty they cannot be made in the HU system. Not accurately at least.

When making something as an NPC encounter (take any major mutant or super from any of the companies) I would like to do at least somewhat within the rules of hte game but I am consistently finding that it cannot be done.

Is it just me or is that just the case with the system as it is set up?

Actually you can come pretty close to Spider-Man with a set of Minor Powers and some gadjets, but yes, Palladium has said as much.

[NMI]

Well Heroes Unlimited is not an RPG based on any specific comic book setting, nor does Palladium have the rights to make stats for said comic book characters.
Would it be awesome if Palladium did get the rights for say a DC or Marvel or dare I saw Image RPG? Oh hecks yeah! It would require, imho, a total revisioning of HU if not a whole new RPG for it, but yeah!

[jaymz]

Well Heroes Unlimited is not an RPG based on any specific comic book setting, nor does Palladium have the rights to make stats for said comic book characters.
Would it be awesome if Palladium did get the rights for say a DC or Marvel or dare I saw Image RPG? Oh hecks yeah! It would require, imho, a total revisioning of HU if not a whole new RPG for it, but yeah!

Thanks for weighing in Nimmy muchly appreciated.

[znbrtn]

the "thinking man's game" line has always seemed to me like a rather misguided, if not condescending idea, mainly because universal power level doesn't make any difference there.

but yeah, getting the rights for image characters would be fantastic.

[Stone Gargoyle]

the "thinking man's game" line has always seemed to me like a rather misguided, if not condescending idea, mainly because universal power level doesn't make any difference there.

but yeah, getting the rights for image characters would be fantastic.

I would settle for Savage Dragon. Image also publishes TMNT, so getting them back as part of AtB would be cool. All Image characters are creator owned, so it would be a matter of contacting Erik Larsen with regard to Savage dragon.

[Sureshot]

Your not the only one to notice. From my experience it is one of the few things that actually stop some gamers from recommending the game. When you have mutants & Masterminds and Champions that allow you to build everything it is kind of hard to try and inmterest people into playing a HU game. I understand that KS wanted to make Hu a thinking mans game yet it also shows a lack of understanding of the superhero genere imo. You have guys fighting it out and dropping stuff on each other all the time in current comics. Collatoral damage seems to be a favorite theme of both DC and Marvel imo. The new power supplements do help with expanding the range of characters you can make yet at the same time restrict some characters. Super-inventions makes no sense to me at all. A power that is limited to real world pyhsics where in comics and other mediums that feature super-hero throw physics out the window at the first opprtunity. It is a fun game but does not emulate the genre very well imo. For HU to compete with other supers rpgs would require a major rewrite.

[MrMom]

I dont know I kind of like it as is.

[Steeler49er]

Super-inventions makes no sense to me at all. A power that is limited to real world pyhsics where in comics and other mediums that feature super-hero throw physics out the window at the first opprtunity.

Huh? Real world physics in HU... Since when? The reason that I often hate playing many rpg's (and the Entire reason I don't watch the Syfyllis channel) is cuz of the major Lack of 'SCI" in the Sci-Fi.

I'daloved it if the rules for super gadgits had ever been logical, as Is I usedta LOVE tech more than anything else (Cyborgs, Alien Tech, Micor Machines, Nanites, Guns, Super sensors, Cloaking devices, Space ships, Energy weapons, Coil Cannons, Mecha, Power armor...etc), and I HATED magic, Psychics, and the supernatural. After 3 years playing the PB system I started to Hate the lack of True sci-tech in Every game in the system, save for Robotech that Just got retcon'd so bad by Harmony Gold to the point that I'll never play It again (I've Never turned off a movie 30 seconds into it). Now ALL I ever play is Super Powers, Super Natural, Psychics, and Magic!

I miss the Sci in sci-fi

[Incriptus]

Its like I always try to tell myself when i'm going to play or GM heroes unlimited.

Don't try to make a comic book character
Make a HU character.

HU is a decent super hero game, but not a very good comic book game.

[Her0man0]

Sure you cant make some of the biggies like superman, spider man, or hulk, but ive found that alot of other characters can be made.

Daredevil, FF4, ALOT of the xmen, most of the avengers and JLA and pretty much all of spidey's villians could all be made resonably well.

also alot of the comic characters that cant be made didnt start out that way, you could use HU to make em when they first started out but they've evolved so much over the years you couldnt make them now.

[Sureshot]

Huh? Real world physics in HU... Since when? The reason that I often hate playing many rpg's (and the Entire reason I don't watch the Syfyllis channel) is cuz of the major Lack of 'SCI" in the Sci-Fi.

It is listed on Page 70 under the Other exclusions paragraph in PU2. and I quote "This is due to the rather limited nature of mechanical inventions to reproduce many of the amazing super abilites that seem to defy the laws of science as we understand them." There you go. the power limits what you can put inot device because scinece has not caught with superpowers. Whch in a supers game makes no sense at all imo.

Sure you cant make some of the biggies like superman, spider man, or hulk, but ive found that alot of other characters can be made.

Daredevil, FF4, ALOT of the xmen, most of the avengers and JLA and pretty much all of spidey's villians could all be made resonably well.

also alot of the comic characters that cant be made didnt start out that way, you could use HU to make em when they first started out but they've evolved so much over the years you couldnt make them now.

A valid point yet other super rpgs allow you to do so. Not everyone wants to make the Hulk or other big characters like him of course. They do want the option to so if they want to and unfortunaltey HU does not really allow it short of the Mega-Hero option and even then. My main problem with HU is that your better off just playing a character with super powers and no magic or psionic classes because the character with super powers can use them 24/7 while the psionic and magic character is limited to PPE. No one in my HU wants to play them. I am the only one who picls one when I play in a HU game.

[Steeler49er]

Huh? Real world physics in HU... Since when? The reason that I often hate playing many rpg's (and the Entire reason I don't watch the Syfyllis channel) is cuz of the major Lack of 'SCI" in the Sci-Fi.

It is listed on Page 70 under the Other exclusions paragraph in PU2. and I quote "This is due to the rather limited nature of mechanical inventions to reproduce many of the amazing super abilites that seem to defy the laws of science as we understand them." There you go. the power limits what you can put inot device because scinece has not caught with superpowers. Whch in a supers game makes no sense at all imo.

EH???
That's a reeeedick-ulos rule!
HU is like 100 Years ahead of Our earth! Just about Any power should be doable for a Super smart inventor... Plus Aliens and extra-dimensional beings tech levels Keep coming through to HU, and they're even more advanced! That rule makes absolutily no sence WhatSoEver, and it totally Cirb-stomps Tech supers even more...
Lame lame lame Lame LAME rule.
More So is that whenever a new HU book comes out that has a Super techy NPC, said NPC is More advanced than what This rule says is allowable (for instance, a certain Centurian super inventor who creates Nano-tech capable of mimicking 'super powers').


Just ignor that weird rule as it is Just as lame as the: "No two APS powers" rule, the -10 rule, the "You are a super sniper marine trying to shoot that DeadReign Zombie inthe head overthere, but you can't use any bonuses to stike"-rule, the "No using your PP bonuse to fire guns", and the "Partical Beams hurt supers with invulnerablility"-rule.
It'sa an "Illogical, Un-scientific, Un-reasonable, and Very Un-Comicky rule.
I see your point now Sureshot, but it is a rule that is very Anti-Science, since sciene is capable of do just about Anything conceivable (short of a True Paradox).

[BookWyrm]

I don't believe that HU was designed in such a way. I believe it was designed to encourage a balanced game, or at least a fair game between the 'nukes' (majorly-powered characters) and the 'street' (minor-powered or no powers at all) type of playable types. Yes, you're going to get characters who make a certain green-skinned behemoth look like a wet match in a hurricane in the Midwest on a trailerpark, but that's due to the player (and the GM that allows it), not the character.
NO ONE wants to go through the litigational rigmarole that is copyright infringement. I wouldn't necessarilly wish it on my worst enemy (I have FAR more ideas in that direction, but I digress). But that's IMHO.

[Sureshot]

Just ignor that weird rule as it is Just as lame as the: "No two APS powers" rule, the -10 rule, the "You are a super sniper marine trying to shoot that DeadReign Zombie inthe head overthere, but you can't use any bonuses to stike"-rule, the "No using your PP bonuse to fire guns", and the "Partical Beams hurt supers with invulnerablility"-rule.
It'sa an "Illogical, Un-scientific, Un-reasonable, and Very Un-Comicky rule.
I see your point now Sureshot, but it is a rule that is very Anti-Science, since sciene is capable of do just about Anything conceivable (short of a True Paradox).

I guess the reason I am so hard on PB with the Super-Invention power is that it did not have to be written as it was. Other superhero rpgs aside you had plenty of other things such as comics and movies that show how very un-comiky the power is. While I know I can houserule it it's things like that which make me feel that when they write new books for HU they just do not get the superhero genre imo. While it os great to encourage HU into a thinking man game it loses too much flavour in the process. Lets be honest when you play a supers rpg no one wants to be taken down by joe average with a gun. Sure it happens in comics but once in a blue moon and when te superhero is either to new or overconfident. I also understand that HU has PB and Kevin unique touch and I like and respect that yet also holds the game back.

[Steeler49er]

Like I said SS... I totally get yer point now...


On a funny note... I almost got taken down by a normal guy and girl with guns in my weekly Aberrant game
The girl had me dead to rights, lucky me she botched the roll
Made up fer the fact that 'I' as well had just botch trying to shoot them first (the bullet riccochetted off the floor and hit me in the head )
So much fer me being a big bad super 'Nova' (Homosapien-novus).

Anywho, I like PB and all but like I said , It's bs-line of "fair and balanced" game play is about as truthfully spoken as when Bill 'O'' Reilly say it. You should never give out more EP for killing bad guys than for performing your skills.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I see your point now Sureshot, but it is a rule that is very Anti-Science, since sciene is capable of do just about Anything conceivable (short of a True Paradox).[/b]

I think this is where a lot of posters on these forums are divided. There's a group of where "Science can do Anything", including replicating magical and supernatural powers, and those of us who say that Magic is MAGIC and science can't duplicate it.

[jaymz]

Now, this all comes about due to the initial poster asking if HU was designed in a way to make converting known super heroes (spidey, superman, batman, etc.) impossible. To which I have the following answers:

1. Conversions are a no-no. Well, conversions and then posting them, anyhow. Although I'd highly recommend not doing it at all just to avoid the temptation.

2. Any known super hero CAN be duplicated through HU. The only problem is how can it be done? The only way to re-create most known super heroes is to make them Mega Heroes, period. Most people I know don't like the Mega Hero option as it imbalances the game too much.

3. The game was created in an attempt to create a super hero RPG as a decent one didn't exist at the time Kevin came up with this idea (for which I am eternally grateful). Kevin didn't create this as an attempt to either include or exclude any known super heroes. He did this as an attempt to create a super hero RPG as a decent one didn't exist at the time. Simply put, he wanted to play a super hero in an RPG game, and he had to create the game to do it. It wasn't about "Can we make so-and-so with this game system".

Well said Leon

1) I do conversions all the time, but don;t post them so no temptatin for me to do so knowing the rules as such

3) Oh I can understand thatthe game was created and hte side effect was it couldn't duplicate the major heroes of the various comic-verses.

2) Actually no you can't Mega-hero still does not allow you to create many of the major supers of the comic-verses for various reason, one being that you can give them enough powers and another beign that some powers, like even supernatural strength do give them enogh strength to do what they are capable of. I am not complaining but it was just an observation. If I want to make superman to show up in my campaign I'll slaughter the rules to do so because it is important for the story so rules be damned in deference to the story imo

I will however never post said conversions of anything I have done and I have done tons over the years to use things in my games

[Steeler49er]

Well, Like I said, Science can do Almost anything (again, short of True Paradox's).

I also think that science can duplicate some minor magical/psionic effects (like levitation or flight). But for the most part, magical spells (such as Death Trance or Mystical Alarm) and psionic abilities (Read Object or Machine Ghost) can't be duplicated. The simple fact here is that these abilities rely on more than just DNA and cool fireworks. Duplicating things that happen with the mind or supernatural forces just can't be done. If someone can explain to me how to duplicate Machine Ghost with a super-invention, then I'll sing a new tune.

DRaTTT
I was Just about to answere this question with some NiFFy super Kewl Super Science JaRgen when...
My wife called me out Fer CHRisTmass TURKEY
So I'm gonna get back to you on that and just leave you with a Merry Xmas :-o for now Leon-K
Sorry and I have my birthday off tomarroo so I'll answere on the 26th... Tell you then...
TURKEY!!!

Actually...
Merry Christmas to Stone Gargoyle, Gryphon Chick , Nekira, Taalismn, jaymz, Izcer One, DtMK, The Baron vonClogg, Danger, And Mr. znbrtn, Sureshot, Mephisto, Incriptus, Her0man0, BookWyrm, drewkitty ~..~, Mr Scorpio, 89er, GMapprentis, Abe and everyone else...
And Of course Deific NMI

[Sureshot]

Merry X-mas to you also Steeler49er.

[Mr Scorpio]

Sorry and I have my birthday off tomarroo so I'll answere on the 26th... Tell you then...
TURKEY!!!

Actually...
Merry Christmas to Stone Gargoyle, Gryphon Chick , Nekira, Taalismn, jaymz, Izcer One, DtMK, The Baron vonClogg, Danger, And Mr. znbrtn, Sureshot, Mephisto, Incriptus, Her0man0, BookWyrm, drewkitty ~..~, Mr Scorpio, 89er, GMapprentis, Abe and everyone else...
And Of course Deific NMI

Merry Christmas to everyone and Happy Birthday 49er!

[Rallan]

Its like I always try to tell myself when i'm going to play or GM heroes unlimited.

Don't try to make a comic book character
Make a HU character.

HU is a decent super hero game, but not a very good comic book game.

Come again? Comic books are what define the superhero genre. I'd say that if a supers RPG makes it extremely difficult to make a PC comparable to what you can find in the pages of popular comic books, or where the combat system discourages the style of combat and action you read in comic books, then the RPG is doing something wrong.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Happy Yule, y'all.

[Sureshot]

Come again? Comic books are what define the superhero genre. I'd say that if a supers RPG makes it extremely difficult to make a PC comparable to what you can find in the pages of popular comic books, or where the combat system discourages the style of combat and action you read in comic books, then the RPG is doing something wrong.

Nothing that a new edition of HU could not fix. HU is still a pretty decent rpg. My hate is reserved for Brave New World but that is a topic for another discussion. Rallan is right to a certain extent. The combat system does not encourage much in the way of superhero combat. HU is a hard game to sell against others. More often than not it's not HU I see recoomended as a game but Granmercy Island and Century Station as sourcebooks to be mined for ideas. That is why I hope to see a new edition or a relaunch of the game lines with a streamlined rules system in the future. With a new edition you can keep the thinking mans game element while including rules that allow you to truly make any comic character. One does not have to exclude the other imo.

If that is ever happens the powers section in the core book needs to be rewritten. I was looking thorough the core book today and was thinking do we really need so many versions of energy expulsion? Why is not Super energy explusion merged into energy expulsion. Same thing with the Alter Physical Structures. Make one power and then give examples of what you can do. I would also like ot see how the world and law enforcement agencies view superheroe in the game.

[NMI]

HU is NOT "Marvel RPG" or "DC Comics RPG"... it is Palladium Books Heroes Unlimited. You can make ANY type of character, not any specific person or character.
Spiderman, Thor, Batman, etc... are not type of characters, they are very specific characters.

[Rallan]

I see your point now Sureshot, but it is a rule that is very Anti-Science, since sciene is capable of do just about Anything conceivable (short of a True Paradox).[/b]

I think this is where a lot of posters on these forums are divided. There's a group of where "Science can do Anything", including replicating magical and supernatural powers, and those of us who say that Magic is MAGIC and science can't duplicate it.

I'm very much from the "science can" school of thought. After all, an awful lot of supers comics have an awful lot of super science floating around, and the last time I checked Heroes Unlimited was a supers RPG. More importantly, it was a generic supers RPG which pitched itself as a game where you can make just about any kind of superhero you want and put him up against just about any kind of supervillain in your own world with your own storyline.

Now if it was intended as a tightly defined setting where science is relatively mundane, then limiting what fancy gadgets can do would be no big deal. But since it's supposed to be trying to emulate the whole genre and let players and GMs pick up what they want, the decision to limit super science was a seriously bad case of dropping the ball and failing to emulate one of the big elements of the genre. It didn't come off as "Inventions can't be too outrageous because that's not a major theme in this setting" so much as "inventions can't be too outrageous because I don't like it".

[Rallan]

HU is NOT "Marvel RPG" or "DC Comics RPG"... it is Palladium Books Heroes Unlimited. You can make ANY type of character, not any specific person or character.

Um, dude? I don't think anyone's complaining about that. The problem some folks have isn't that HU isn't Marvel or DC, it's that there's some superhero genre conventions that HU doesn't seem to handle very well. Marvel and DC are just being mentioned because over the years they've helped define the genre and have a lot of archetypal examples of what it's all about, so they're a handy reference point when you're trying to describe something about the genre.

[Sureshot]

Um, dude? I don't think anyone's complaining about that. The problem some folks have isn't that HU isn't Marvel or DC, it's that there's some superhero genre conventions that HU doesn't seem to handle very well. Marvel and DC are just being mentioned because over the years they've helped define the genre and have a lot of archetypal examples of what it's all about, so they're a handy reference point when you're trying to describe something about the genre.

Agreed and seconded.

[NMI]

If that is ever happens the powers section in the core book needs to be rewritten. I was looking thorough the core book today and was thinking do we really need so many versions of energy expulsion? Why is not Super energy explusion merged into energy expulsion. Same thing with the Alter Physical Structures. Make one power and then give examples of what you can do.

Combat-wise, I do not have much of a problem with the way HU specifically, Palladium in general handles things. Any "fixes" I use are to me, common sense fixes and come to me as second nature. Do I think the system is perfect? No, but then NO system out there is.

As for the the super abilities and stream-lining them?
I agree and disagree. What I would like to see is more details in the powers! A ruleset for working with/generating "Power Stunts". Case in point, shouldn't a individual with Energy Expulsion: Electricity be able to regulate his/her blast to do stun damage akin to a Stun Gun? Energy Expulsion: Fire generate heat? or weld?

I would also like ot see how the world and law enforcement agencies view superheroe in the game.

To an extent "Heroes Unlimited: Game Masters Guide" covers this. However, in my humble opinion, how the world and law enforcement agencies see/treat supers could/would be different from one "super world" to another. Look at X-Men Earth compared to that of the Earth that WildC.A.T.S.! Both the same planet but with different views on supers. Even DC Earth is relatively different then either X-Men or other super Earths.

Um, dude? I don't think anyone's complaining about that. The problem some folks have isn't that HU isn't Marvel or DC, it's that there's some superhero genre conventions that HU doesn't seem to handle very well. Marvel and DC are just being mentioned because over the years they've helped define the genre and have a lot of archetypal examples of what it's all about, so they're a handy reference point when you're trying to describe something about the genre.

Agreed and seconded.

Conventions? I see in the original post that the topic starter can not easily make a Supes or Spiderman easily. Can they both be done? Yes. Easily? So-so. Would they be the same power level as often portrayed in the comics? Not exactly and that is where I see the problem people seem to have in this and similar threads.

[Sureshot]

As for the the super abilities and stream-lining them?
I agree and disagree. What I would like to see is more details in the powers! A ruleset for working with/generating "Power Stunts". Case in point, shouldn't a individual with Energy Expulsion: Electricity be able to regulate his/her blast to do stun damage akin to a Stun Gun? Energy Expulsion: Fire generate heat? or weld?

Agreed. The powers can use a lot more detail. sure some will complain that it will make the rules more complex but in a game such as HU you need to know that suff. The melting point of substances would be nice too. A system of Power Stunts would be cool too. Still I do think that the power section could be less cluttered so to speak.

To an extent "Heroes Unlimited: Game Masters Guide" covers this. However, in my humble opinion, how the world and law enforcement agencies see/treat supers could/would be different from one "super world" to another. Look at X-Men Earth compared to that of the Earth that WildC.A.T.S.! Both the same planet but with different views on supers. Even DC Earth is relatively different then either X-Men or other super Earths.

Forgot about that section in the HUGMG. While you are right that not everyone has the same views it would be nice to see how the various countries around the world handle supers. In Champions China has it's own superteam and depending on its mission can be either an ally or enemy due to the difference in political views. In South america alot of criminal cartels use low level supers as bodyguards and assassins. It also makes the gaming world more intersting imo.

[NMI]

As for the the super abilities and stream-lining them?
I agree and disagree. What I would like to see is more details in the powers! A ruleset for working with/generating "Power Stunts". Case in point, shouldn't a individual with Energy Expulsion: Electricity be able to regulate his/her blast to do stun damage akin to a Stun Gun? Energy Expulsion: Fire generate heat? or weld?

Agreed. The powers can use a lot more detail. sure some will complain that it will make the rules more complex but in a game such as HU you need to know that suff. The melting point of substances would be nice too. A system of Power Stunts would be cool too. Still I do think that the power section could be less cluttered so to speak.

To an extent "Heroes Unlimited: Game Masters Guide" covers this. However, in my humble opinion, how the world and law enforcement agencies see/treat supers could/would be different from one "super world" to another. Look at X-Men Earth compared to that of the Earth that WildC.A.T.S.! Both the same planet but with different views on supers. Even DC Earth is relatively different then either X-Men or other super Earths.

Forgot about that section in the HUGMG. While you are right that not everyone has the same views it would be nice to see how the various countries around the world handle supers. In Champions China has it's own superteam and depending on its mission can be either an ally or enemy due to the difference in political views. In South america alot of criminal cartels use low level supers as bodyguards and assassins. It also makes the gaming world more intersting imo.

Im glad to see that we both see things in a similar light.

[jaymz]

Conventions? I see in the original post that the topic starter can not easily make a Supes or Spiderman easily. Can they both be done? Yes. Easily? So-so. Would they be the same power level as often portrayed in the comics? Not exactly and that is where I see the problem people seem to have in this and similar threads.

That would be me

My only real issue is that in trying to make supers like said majors supers (spidey/superman) the rules need to b bent/broken in order to do it since they have more powers than is legal or the training spans more than one class. The PU books have alleviated that to a degree and most if not all of the seconary and tertiary characters can be and so can be many primary, but many of the most famous are still not. In some of these cases it's just a matter of upping the power level of a certain power (i do this with supernatural strenght by making it lift x2000 (1 ton) and carry x1000 (0.5 ton) ) That way hte really strong characters actually cn lift a tank etc. As it is now by the rules you need at least a supernatural ps of 200+ to lift a main battle tank of 50 tons.

My only curiosity was that when the game was made/designed, was it done in such a way as to have it a lower power level than many of the primary heroes in comics like a superman or spiderman?

I can make these guys with power level adjustments and making my own rules changes etc. I have (no I won't post them so don't anyone ask ) and will conune whatever i need to do to make characters as I see fit. The OP was just a question of curiosity and not complaint really.

[Captain Shiva]

I don't think the system is deliberately designed that way,but it just seems to turn out like that.Mutants,who in comics usually only possess one or two powers, are fairly easy to reproduce using HU2 rules.On the other hand,guys with a lot of skills,like Batman, are hard to do,but not impossible,especially with the revised Mega-Hero rules from Rifter 37.Spider-Man is doable,and you could even get close to his published strength level,maybe without even making him a Mega-Hero.Superman,on the other hand,is pretty much impossible,due to his power level,plus the sheer number of powers he has.I hope none of my comments violate the conversion rules.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Superman and Spidey are the flagship characters of their companies and so will always be at impossible levels. I don't think you can fairly use them as examples of how HU can produce general characters to be like comics.

[jaymz]

Superman and Spidey are the flagship characters of their companies and so will always be at impossible levels. I don't think you can fairly use them as examples of how HU can produce general characters to be like comics.

That may be but the fact of hte mater is they aren't the nly characters that are like that.

Spiderman cannot be done properly, not enugh powers though his strength level would be doable..., all his powers are there but the rules dont allow you to have that many powers... uperman is hte same and hte power levels are not high enough in some cases is all....and batman is just well...he is batman

Many of hte other primary characters cannot be done accuraely either. It is one thing to give them supernatural streenght but when the limit is in 25 ton lifting range you cannot do a large majority of the super strng characters who routinely toss tanks and trucks around that factually weigh more than that. PU 1-3 rectified alot of it but it still doesnt quite get to where I would liek to see it.

Now is thi a complaint? No because I knwo how I can fix it to do what I want

My original curiosity got the answer. It wasn't done this way on purpose it just turned out that way.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Tanks and trucks don't weigh that much, and are tossable with lessr strengthh, so that example is BS. Maybe you just need to learn the system you are using.

[Rallan]

My only curiosity was that when the game was made/designed, was it done in such a way as to have it a lower power level than many of the primary heroes in comics like a superman or spiderman?

I kinda get the feeling that it was. Remember that the Mega-Hero just did not exist until the new edition of the game, and even then it came with a disclaimer that basically ran along the lines of "Well I'm including this because the fans asked for it, but I can't really see the point myself". And for most of the game's existence there was no Powers Unlimited to help beef things up. And then there's the fact that Palladium's basic rule system just isn't well-suited to emulating superheroics, and HU has never had any extra rules or mechanics tacked on to make it better. KOs are on a natural 20 only because it's "realistic" (in a supers setting? say what?). Combat strongly discourages flashy acrobatics or non-lethal techniques in favour of just dishing out as much damage per round as possible. There's no karma/luck/drama/whatever mechanic in the game to provide a bit of balance between combat wombat heroes and everyone else (a good example would be the Buffy RPG where there's a "white hat" class for normal human sidekicks whose major power is a whole bunch of plot points to make sure they can save their asses or influence the storyline), so you can't have a situation where "badass normal" heroes like Batman can still be amazingly important even though they share a world with virtually incincible guys like Superman.

Part of it's basically just that the system isn't flexible enough and no attempt has been made to change anything despite other companies coming up with really good ideas for how to handle these problems. But part of it really seems to be that when HU was written they just didn't want to include the sort of superheroes who throw train carriages at each other or fly into space and punch out mile-high aliens.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Tanks and trucks don't weigh that much, and are tossable with lessr strengthh, so that example is BS. Maybe you just need to learn the system you are using.

well without getting into conversion territory, X-Men characters like Juggernaut, Sabretooth, Gladiator and Beast would require vastly high P.S. scores that HU2 probably can't reach without system tweaks.

They use the assumption mutants just start out stronger than everyone else, even before powers are added.

[Rallan]

Tanks and trucks don't weigh that much, and are tossable with lessr strengthh, so that example is BS. Maybe you just need to learn the system you are using.

An Abrams tank weighs about 130,000lbs. Supernatural strength lets you pick up 100x your weight in pounds or comfortably carry 50x. That means that you need a character with a Supernatural PS of over 1300 just to pick up a tank at all, and a supernatural PS of more than 2600 to be able to throw it around. Seriously dude, the way the different kinds of Physical Strength scale in HU, you just can't make a character who can throw tanks around like Spiderman or Superman or the Hulk.

At the moment the heaviest a fully loaded semitrailler can be on US roads is 80,000lbs gross weight (ie 80,000lbs including both the truck and the load). That's a lot lighter than a tank, but it still means you need someone with a Supernatural PS of 800 to pick it up, or 1600+ to be able to carry it around and throw it more than a few feet.

Even with a supernatural strength of 30 (and how many HU characters are gonna have that?) you're only gonna be able to pick up 3,000lbs and comfortably carry and throw 1500lbs. Which is a damn site more impressive than any normal human being could ever manage, and lets you throw Vespas at each other or use anvils as bludgeons. But you're not about to have tank-juggling duels, stop a runaway steam train, punch a comet off course, or push a ship off a reef so that it doesn't get smashed by Dr Meany's hurricane generator.


Disclaimer: my PS figures are based on the supernatural strength rules in Nightbane, since my HU book sorta no longer exists (damn unreliable friends I had eight years ago).

[Rallan]

Have any of you considered the level of these characters?
To accurately reproduce any of these mainstream heroes, one would also have to take into account the years of roleplay they have been through. Obviously, their GM has bent many rules during the development of these characters, probably for the sake of the story.

That's kinda irrelevant in Heroes Unlimited terms, because an awful lot of super powers either stay the same forever or only scale up a little bit with new experience levels, and your attributes generally never improve at all unless you pick up new physical skills. Not only can't you make a character who's as badass as the iconic main characters from the big supers comics without cheating like crazy, you can't really settle for someone who's kinda close and level him up later on.

Basically with HU as its written the players can quite easily put together a team that can wipe the floor with the Great Lakes Avengers (except Squirrel Girl, who will kick your ass*), but you're gonna have to house-rule it out the wazoo if you want to make some characters on a par with any of the real Avengers lineups.


* disclaimer: the Heroes Unlimited equivalent of Squirrel girl will not actually kick your ass unless the GM cheats in every scene she appears in, due to the lack of a "luck" or "drama points" mechanic for letting characters that are long on personality save the day despite being short on super powers.

[jaymz]

Tanks and trucks don't weigh that much, and are tossable with lessr strengthh, so that example is BS. Maybe you just need to learn the system you are using.

An Abrams tank weighs about 130,000lbs. Supernatural strength lets you pick up 100x your weight in pounds or comfortably carry 50x. That means that you need a character with a Supernatural PS of over 1300 just to pick up a tank at all, and a supernatural PS of more than 2600 to be able to throw it around. Seriously dude, the way the different kinds of Physical Strength scale in HU, you just can't make a character who can throw tanks around like Spiderman or Superman or the Hulk.

At the moment the heaviest a fully loaded semitrailler can be on US roads is 80,000lbs gross weight (ie 80,000lbs including both the truck and the load). That's a lot lighter than a tank, but it still means you need someone with a Supernatural PS of 800 to pick it up, or 1600+ to be able to carry it around and throw it more than a few feet.

Even with a supernatural strength of 30 (and how many HU characters are gonna have that?) you're only gonna be able to pick up 3,000lbs and comfortably carry and throw 1500lbs. Which is a damn site more impressive than any normal human being could ever manage, and lets you throw Vespas at each other or use anvils as bludgeons. But you're not about to have tank-juggling duels, stop a runaway steam train, punch a comet off course, or push a ship off a reef so that it doesn't get smashed by Dr Meany's hurricane generator.


Disclaimer: my PS figures are based on the supernatural strength rules in Nightbane, since my HU book sorta no longer exists (damn unreliable friends I had eight years ago).

HU2 supernnatural str is lift x500 carry x300. Here in Canada trucks can gross as much as 120 000lbs (60 tons) and yes most tanks run the range of 45-65+ tons so I am not sure where SG was getting his information. talking low end say just a semi-truck no trailer can weigh as much as 15 tons on its own. So a Semi turck by itself would need a Supernatural PS of 60 (do able) one with a trialer etc at 40 tons would need a ps of 120 (MIGHT be doable) and the abrams at 67 tons to be lifted would need a ps of 269, not doable really by along shot.

[jaymz]

Have any of you considered the level of these characters?
To accurately reproduce any of these mainstream heroes, one would also have to take into account the years of roleplay they have been through. Obviously, their GM has bent many rules during the development of these characters, probably for the sake of the story.

Level doesnt typicall increase your ps levels in HU it increases combat bonuses, it increased skills but pretty much everythign else for pwers stays exactley the same aside from the combat bonuses and skill with a few exceptions (super speed flight etc your speed increases)

[Stone Gargoyle]

I was presuming he meant smaller vehicles, so okay, they fall short, even with a PS of 70 (maxed), for HUGE vehicles.

[Incriptus]

* disclaimer: the Heroes Unlimited equivalent of Squirrel girl will not actually kick your ass unless the GM cheats in every scene she appears in, due to the lack of a "luck" or "drama points" mechanic for letting characters that are long on personality save the day despite being short on super powers.

I can tell you man, you do not want to be hit by squirl girl's nut sack.

[Captain Shiva]

Tanks and trucks don't weigh that much, and are tossable with lessr strengthh, so that example is BS. Maybe you just need to learn the system you are using.

An Abrams tank weighs about 130,000lbs. Supernatural strength lets you pick up 100x your weight in pounds or comfortably carry 50x. That means that you need a character with a Supernatural PS of over 1300 just to pick up a tank at all, and a supernatural PS of more than 2600 to be able to throw it around. Seriously dude, the way the different kinds of Physical Strength scale in HU, you just can't make a character who can throw tanks around like Spiderman or Superman or the Hulk.

At the moment the heaviest a fully loaded semitrailler can be on US roads is 80,000lbs gross weight (ie 80,000lbs including both the truck and the load). That's a lot lighter than a tank, but it still means you need someone with a Supernatural PS of 800 to pick it up, or 1600+ to be able to carry it around and throw it more than a few feet.

Even with a supernatural strength of 30 (and how many HU characters are gonna have that?) you're only gonna be able to pick up 3,000lbs and comfortably carry and throw 1500lbs. Which is a damn site more impressive than any normal human being could ever manage, and lets you throw Vespas at each other or use anvils as bludgeons. But you're not about to have tank-juggling duels, stop a runaway steam train, punch a comet off course, or push a ship off a reef so that it doesn't get smashed by Dr Meany's hurricane generator.


Disclaimer: my PS figures are based on the supernatural strength rules in Nightbane, since my HU book sorta no longer exists (damn unreliable friends I had eight years ago).

HU2 Supers with Supernatural PS can lift a good bit more than that,but still, car tossing with anything bigger than a minvan ain't likely to happen.

[Damian Magecraft]

when discussing comic books in any rpg setting, one must remember that the comic characters have power levels equal to the plot requirements.
I have seen books where spidey has trouble lifting a bus or car and then other books where he easily tosses a tank. same goes for other comic characters.