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Yeah I'd say they would be. Precious metals are not exactley plentiful in Rifts.

Also if you can trade in hard currency it is nigh impossible to trace.

Example, n Star wars people essentially use a credstick. But hard curency exists as well. Same reason, criminal much prefer the use of hard currency

jaymz wrote:Yeah I'd say they would be. Precious metals are not exactley plentiful in Rifts.

Also if you can trade in hard currency it is nigh impossible to trace.

Example, n Star wars people essentially use a credstick. But hard curency exists as well. Same reason, criminal much prefer the use of hard currency

Only he's talking Dead Reign here.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

jaymz wrote:Yeah I'd say they would be. Precious metals are not exactley plentiful in Rifts.

Also if you can trade in hard currency it is nigh impossible to trace.

Example, n Star wars people essentially use a credstick. But hard curency exists as well. Same reason, criminal much prefer the use of hard currency

Only he's talking Dead Reign here.

Yeah id idn;t see it was dead reign my bad. Though it may still have some value for something either way

I'd say it would depend on where and how large the area's surviving human community is.

Even in a lare community this soon afterall the collapse I'd say minimal at best. Pennies would likely hold the most value due to their high zinc and copper content. However, you'd have to have a way to seperate the zinc and copper to use it for anything like copper wiring, which is probably easily just to rip out of a house anyway or use water pipes from a house.

Not much point in carrying it for currency. a 5lb bag of pennies or other coins probably isn't worth more then 5lbs of scrap metal of the same consitency.

Now if we were talking immediately following the zombies rising, some people are still going to value currency until they realize things are well and truely humped. Long enough after the fall (2, 3 years, maybe more) and some really large communities, probably a minimum of several thousand people, might start using jelwery and previous coinage as valid tender in lew of having to carry barter everywhere within the community.

Real goods are always worth more though.
-Matt

There hasn't been a U.S. Cent with significant copper content since 1982. The current ones are 97.5% zinc, with only 2.5% copper added, as a plating. At 2.5 grams weight, that's not much copper. Not that zinc is valueless, but it isn't the same by any means. A U.S. Nickel, on the other hand, is 75% copper, and 25% nickel, and weighs 5 grams. A Dime or a a quarter is even better, however, both have 91.67% copper. The dime is 2.268 grams, and the quarter is 5.67 grams. The quarter will give your the highest density of copper by volume, in terms of individual coins (advantage over the dime only manifests at the ten-thousandths place of the decimal, most likely because of the difference in the reeding), though dimes will be better for mass carriage, due to the spacing between coin stacks being smaller.

None of these things, however, are likely to maintain any value as currency. They'd pretty much be a tradegoods only, or more likely, smelted and tossed around as ingots. Gold is even more pointless in an apocalypse; it has no practical purpose for anything most people will be doing, and is obscenely heavy (nearly twice as heavy as lead). Not that some people won't want it anyway, but those are the same people who'll die because they care more about old standards than new reality. Maybe some comfortably established individuals or locations with no survival concerns and a secure immobile storage will want it and be able to make use of it in reestablishing normalcy down the line, but most folks have far more important things to worry about than showing off. You're probably better off with can of soup than a gold coin.

Lead itself, however, might become a real commodity metal, due to it's exceedingly practical use in bullets. Bullets have been legal tender in this country before, and it would make sense to have them as such again. We're very devoted, these days, to the idea of a currency - something that has value beyond the practical. That's hard to do and rare, however, and I don't think it would be coins for quite a while (bills wouldn't return for a very long time). It took about 100 years to really get coins going in North America the first time, and the wide acceptability of bills took another 100 years more. Our current system of coins and bills is actually only around 80 years old - it's hard to get people to trust fiat currency.

----edit----
Quick correction to myself - The 2009 Cent coins are significantly copper, 95% so infact. This is because they are commemoratives for the 100th anniversary of the lincoln penny, and so used the metal mix of 1909, which is 95% copper, 3% zinc, 2% tin. Other than THAT, they're as stated above.

Plus, at least in the U.S., currency is viewed as having worth because those with it, believe so, and civilization, and the government, has conditioned people to that. It used to be on the gold standard (the dollar backed by gold and silver), but that was dropped (I can't recall when it was dropped though).

But as Lionheart pointed out, lead would definitely be valuable for bullets, as well as the compounds/components to making gunpowder and casings.

In my deadreign campain money is no good. Only things that can help the surviors like: food,water,flashlights and other things along that line.

Gold standard was changed to the silver standarded in the 40's I believe and finally it was not backed by anything other then the good will of the US gov't in the 60's.

Something like bullets being trade goods/money is a pretty good idea. That or medicines. Heck really it is just barter, but you could pick a relatively 'high value' 'high density' 'low mass' items such as antibiotics, possibly bullets, etc. Ideally if you wanted a lot of barter power your best bet is to carry around such items as they are going to be more valuable per weight and volume then something like say water or food. Heck carrying a stash of a dozen pistols and a few hundred rounds of ammo would be a pretty good way to carry 'wealth' as it were in DR.

Again, I haven't seen the latest greatest book, but I'd suspect within a few months of the zombies rising there would be at least a handful of pretty big survivor communities established. Most likely in some of the smaller towns across different countries. Probably founded with a combination of military units that were quick thinking and at least semi-mobalized (likely to be guard units called up because of the plague or guard units that were just mobilizing and weren't deployed yet) and survivalists that helped clear out small/medium towns and then helped collect other survivors. These communities might be more likely to come up with some kind of 'money' that they would use internally in lew of having to carry around their trade goods whenever they needed to buy anything.

That said they are also just as likely to be completely 'nationalized' with the people in charge doling out all of the supplies 'fairly'. Some of these communities might be well lead, others might have a tyrant in charge. I am pulling this out of my butt, but I'd say the largest might be upward of 10,000 people, but that would be exceedingly rare. The lucky town that didn't have to many people turn zombie, combined with quick thinking citizens and maybe a national guard armory in town where the unit was in the process of assembling when things went to pot.

I think eventually in the DR world we'll start seeing some safe haven communities that act kind of like supply and trading posts for those who either don't want to settle down or the communities might only allow the occasional new citizen.
-Matt

I disagree that money is worthless in the new world. A pool table takes quarters and the balls can be thrown or used as a mobility denial system. A super bounce ball can make a handy distraction. A pop vending machine that still has power is a source of food.

But as per trading and bartering, it is completely worthless except during the wave where some may still think that this may just blow over.

Citizen Lazlo wrote:

Teltum wrote:I disagree that money is worthless in the new world. A pool table takes quarters and the balls can be thrown or used as a mobility denial system. A super bounce ball can make a handy distraction. A pop vending machine that still has power is a source of food.

I'd rather carry a crowbar to open them up.

Exactly.
I am not going to keep change just in case I find a machine with power.
I am going to rip the machine open not scrounge for change to get more than one can.
If I can't use it to physically make something that I need with it, It has no value.
I will place more value in a handful of screws than a truck full of coinage.
I will place a full can of soda at far higher value than a truck full of coinange.
A box of ramen noodles has more value to me than a mint full of coinage.

I can make far more effective mobility denial systems, alarms, "buckshot", with far more readily available materials than coinage.
The only time I'd use coinage is if it was closest thing laying there and I wanted to throw it to make noise and distraction.
Until society is rebuilt, it is just a reminder of a what used to be.
The more people running away and hiding like domestic cattle the less coinage is going to make a comeback anytime soon.

Teltum wrote:...A pop vending machine that still has power is a source of food....

You obviously never saw JP3.

J. Lionheart wrote:Lead itself, however, might become a real commodity metal, due to it's exceedingly practical use in bullets. Bullets have been legal tender in this country before, and it would make sense to have them as such again.

I like the idea but there would be an extremely flexible exchange rate from one encounter to the next.

Leon Kennedy wrote:

J. Lionheart wrote:There hasn't been a U.S. Cent with significant copper content since 1982. The current ones are 97.5% zinc, with only 2.5% copper added, as a plating. At 2.5 grams weight, that's not much copper. Not that zinc is valueless, but it isn't the same by any means. A U.S. Nickel, on the other hand, is 75% copper, and 25% nickel, and weighs 5 grams. A Dime or a a quarter is even better, however, both have 91.67% copper. The dime is 2.268 grams, and the quarter is 5.67 grams. The quarter will give your the highest density of copper by volume, in terms of individual coins (advantage over the dime only manifests at the ten-thousandths place of the decimal, most likely because of the difference in the reeding), though dimes will be better for mass carriage, due to the spacing between coin stacks being smaller.

None of these things, however, are likely to maintain any value as currency. They'd pretty much be a tradegoods only, or more likely, smelted and tossed around as ingots. Gold is even more pointless in an apocalypse; it has no practical purpose for anything most people will be doing, and is obscenely heavy (nearly twice as heavy as lead). Not that some people won't want it anyway, but those are the same people who'll die because they care more about old standards than new reality. Maybe some comfortably established individuals or locations with no survival concerns and a secure immobile storage will want it and be able to make use of it in reestablishing normalcy down the line, but most folks have far more important things to worry about than showing off. You're probably better off with can of soup than a gold coin.

Lead itself, however, might become a real commodity metal, due to it's exceedingly practical use in bullets. Bullets have been legal tender in this country before, and it would make sense to have them as such again. We're very devoted, these days, to the idea of a currency - something that has value beyond the practical. That's hard to do and rare, however, and I don't think it would be coins for quite a while (bills wouldn't return for a very long time). It took about 100 years to really get coins going in North America the first time, and the wide acceptability of bills took another 100 years more. Our current system of coins and bills is actually only around 80 years old - it's hard to get people to trust fiat currency.

I whole heartedly agree with your statement about bullets being valuable, but you have to appreciate that a bullet can be made from just about any known substance. Wax, rubber, wood, lead, gold, silver, tin, copper - you get the point. Bullets can be made from just about any substance and used. How durable that bullet is - well, that's a different story.

I was just thinking that though lead might not be all that available in the average home there would be lots of gold rings and other gold jewelry in homes that would be great for melting and use as bullets. Being even heavier than lead (lots heavier) gold bullets would have no problem carrying their momentum and would likely make good rifle rounds.

Ubiquity wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Leon Kennedy wrote:

J. Lionheart wrote:There hasn't been a U.S. Cent with significant copper content since 1982. The current ones are 97.5% zinc, with only 2.5% copper added, as a plating. At 2.5 grams weight, that's not much copper. Not that zinc is valueless, but it isn't the same by any means. A U.S. Nickel, on the other hand, is 75% copper, and 25% nickel, and weighs 5 grams. A Dime or a a quarter is even better, however, both have 91.67% copper. The dime is 2.268 grams, and the quarter is 5.67 grams. The quarter will give your the highest density of copper by volume, in terms of individual coins (advantage over the dime only manifests at the ten-thousandths place of the decimal, most likely because of the difference in the reeding), though dimes will be better for mass carriage, due to the spacing between coin stacks being smaller.

None of these things, however, are likely to maintain any value as currency. They'd pretty much be a tradegoods only, or more likely, smelted and tossed around as ingots. Gold is even more pointless in an apocalypse; it has no practical purpose for anything most people will be doing, and is obscenely heavy (nearly twice as heavy as lead). Not that some people won't want it anyway, but those are the same people who'll die because they care more about old standards than new reality. Maybe some comfortably established individuals or locations with no survival concerns and a secure immobile storage will want it and be able to make use of it in reestablishing normalcy down the line, but most folks have far more important things to worry about than showing off. You're probably better off with can of soup than a gold coin.

Lead itself, however, might become a real commodity metal, due to it's exceedingly practical use in bullets. Bullets have been legal tender in this country before, and it would make sense to have them as such again. We're very devoted, these days, to the idea of a currency - something that has value beyond the practical. That's hard to do and rare, however, and I don't think it would be coins for quite a while (bills wouldn't return for a very long time). It took about 100 years to really get coins going in North America the first time, and the wide acceptability of bills took another 100 years more. Our current system of coins and bills is actually only around 80 years old - it's hard to get people to trust fiat currency.

I whole heartedly agree with your statement about bullets being valuable, but you have to appreciate that a bullet can be made from just about any known substance. Wax, rubber, wood, lead, gold, silver, tin, copper - you get the point. Bullets can be made from just about any substance and used. How durable that bullet is - well, that's a different story.

I was just thinking that though lead might not be all that available in the average home there would be lots of gold rings and other gold jewelry in homes that would be great for melting and use as bullets. Being even heavier than lead (lots heavier) gold bullets would have no problem carrying their momentum and would likely make good rifle rounds.

IMHO...

Gold is more malleable (I believe) and ductile(I know) than lead, so depending on the gold content of the round, it could be worthless as a bullet. And who has the time to melt gold down and mix it with other metals to create a viable enough round?

Though perhaps using gold as the core or a sheathing over a bullet? But even then, why waste the effort? just use silver... or lead. And speaking of coinage...

Living in Denver, the coins here at the US Mint would be worthless, but the Mint itself would make one hell of a fortress base of operations. Am working on a campaign based around the Mint...

I wasn't talking pure gold, but rather gold jewelry. Most gold in jewelry is already alloyed to make it harder. If it were made of pure gold rings would very easily bend and deform and neclaces would get broken links all the time.

If one only used jewelry it would ptobably stand up just as well as lead bullets, besides so what if it is more ductile (streatchy) or malleable (can be hammered into shape)? Its not like its going to fall to pieces when fired like ice did on Mythbusters.

And IIRC silver is one of the rare metals that will expand from its liquid state to its solid state so doesn't work well in bullet molds as the caliber of the cooled round is slightly bigger than the mold rather than slightly smaller... even if you have special molds or can some other way get them to come out the right size, its also much less dense than lead so it wont carry its momentum as well and is less lethal because of that. Also its a harder metal than gold or lead and would be more wear on the rifling in your barrel.

Gold would simply be more available than lead and better to use than silver.

Currency would have the same inherint value in Dead Reign that it has to day. Its valuable as long as you believe it has value.

Currency would have the same inherint value in Dead Reign that it has to day. Its valuable as long as you believe it has value.

You might have placed value on it, I will not.

Gamer wrote:

Currency would have the same inherint value in Dead Reign that it has to day. Its valuable as long as you believe it has value.

You might have placed value on it, I will not.

I think you missed my point,
US currency only has value because we fundamentally believe it does (or that its backed by something tangible) for example.
And when I said "you" I wasn't talking to you personally, Gamer, I was thinking more of in game characters and players. If they covet the cash, it has value to them (maybe they rolled an insanity or developed one during play).

But yes, if the zombies start shambling around my home town, my cash stash will be least on my list of priorities (debit cards are another matter).

Lead is everywhere however.

Car batteries have a CRAP load of lead in the plates. Not super easy to remove with all that battery acid, but if your capable you can remove and clean then and then melt them down.

A lot of people fish, fishing weights are lead and a tackle box could easily have enough for a few dozen rounds in it even if the person isn't a huge avid fisherman.

A fishing/outdoor store and really any big box store is likely to have an outdoor/sports section and probably has at least several dozen if not a couple of hundre pounds of lead fishing weights.

Any pewter wear, though not common, is a good enough mix of lead and a low enough melting point to be usable for bullets.

though lighter, copper has a low enough melting point to be usable for bullets or can be used to jacket lead bullets if you know how. It can be found in any home in the wiring or piping (well, most homes have copper wiring and/or piping, though some use PEX or PVC plumbing or aluminum wiring). It'll shorten your range, but at point blank it'll be better at transfering energy.
-Matt

The weights they use to align car tires are also lead.

Shawn Merrow wrote:The weights they use to align car tires are also lead.

I keep forgetting about that. Yeah, so that means any tire shop is going to have a ready supply, many mechanic's shops, some car dealers and basically any car will have some amount. Considering the size and weight any given car might have enough for 2-10 bullets and any of the shops, etc are likely to have enough for hundreds to thousands of bullets worth of lead.
-Matt

Leon Kennedy wrote:Seeing as we're talking about melting things down and making them into bullets, I feel I have to put in the following:

1. If we're going to rummage through houses to find metals to melt down and turn into bullets, the first place anybody should stop is the kitchen. Why? Silverware. Stainless steel. Granted, the melting point is 2,781 degrees Fahrenheit (whereas gold is only 1,947, silver is 1,763, and lead is 621), but every home in the country - heck, every home in the WORLD - has silverware in the kitchen drawers.

2. As someone pointed out already, who has the time to melt metal? The temperature and equipment required to do so aren't just sitting around in someone's basement (although jewelers either do it themselves or hire an outside company to do metal work for them). You could, maybe, use a high school science lab or metal shop. But are the beneifts of clearing out a high school worth it for the primary reason of smelting to make bullets?

Pretty sure that stainless steel would make for poor bullets as they would be light and lose their momentum and very hard and thus could damage the barrel of the weapon.

Stick to lead if possible copper or gold if lead is hard to come by.

The one weakness of a crowbar... it is loud, sure using coins is loud, just not as loud. With a diabetic/caffeine addict in a party pop machines become sources of sugar and caffeine -- food. Plus you could roll a coin by a zombie in a pinch as a distraction. Honestly, I personally wouldn't carry a pocket of loose change with me in a DR situation, hell if I found 100#'s of pennys they would stay right where they are at and I would walk around em... The noise the change makes when it hits is all bad waiting to happen. Plus the paper money is okay to burn for warmth (ala Cliffhanger).

Poker chips, sea shells, bottle caps, stuff like that could be a trade currency for a region. (Off to go start an article for The Rifter.)

Rolling a coin far enough that the zombie didn't see you start to roll it is pretty chancy. Better just to toss it to make some noise, in which case a rock is just as good.

The likelihood of finding a soda or vending machine with power would be vanishingly small, probably up there on the likelihood of finding an honest politician.

On another note, stainless steel would erode the rifling on a barrel pretty fast. It could do in a pinch though. Better to form in to shot for a shotgun or solid slug for a shotgun, no rifling to worry about there and much easier to make shotgun cartridges (you could easily reuse the base and making a shot cup isn't to hard to do either, plus if you had to you could make/load it with black powder if you could also get percussion caps of the right size).
-Matt

azazel1024 wrote:Rolling a coin far enough that the zombie didn't see you start to roll it is pretty chancy. Better just to toss it to make some noise, in which case a rock is just as good.

The likelihood of finding a soda or vending machine with power would be vanishingly small, probably up there on the likelihood of finding an honest politician.

On another note, stainless steel would erode the rifling on a barrel pretty fast. It could do in a pinch though. Better to form in to shot for a shotgun or solid slug for a shotgun, no rifling to worry about there and much easier to make shotgun cartridges (you could easily reuse the base and making a shot cup isn't to hard to do either, plus if you had to you could make/load it with black powder if you could also get percussion caps of the right size).
-Matt

I'd still rather use darn near anything but stainless steel as it would still be far less dense than lead and even more so from gold. Used as shot it would have horrible range... though steel flechettes in a shot shell would be decent for longer range bird and small game hunting and since there is no game wardens in DR it would be a useful way to save your lead for killing zombies.

Teltum wrote:The one weakness of a crowbar... it is loud

But you only have to do it once. Pop the door, and it's popped. That, and a crowbar has a thousand other uses in a zombie apocalypse, while quarters... well, they're only worth the metal they're minted from.

Steel shot wouldn't have horrible range. Shot range is more limited by the choke of the shotgun, IE the spread pattern then anything kind of like old flintlock muskets were limited by their accuracy. If you can't hit the target reliably at say 100 yards there isn't much point in shooting at it. If you have a 10yd spread pattern at 100yds then there isn't much point in shooting at it as you aren't likely to hit it with anything or not enough to really hurt it.

O, OO or OOO steel buckshot would do a decent job and over 30-80yds it isn't going to lose an appreciable amount more energy then lead would. It would also do a lot more damage at shorter ranges (probably anything under 50yds) then lead would as when it impacts it would transfer its energy much faster due to the low weight. It would also have better penetration as it would tend not to deform on impact with a harder surface. This is all for fairly short ranges, but I wouldn't tend to shot at things at longer ranges with a shotgun unless hunting. Zombie, well they move slow enough that you can save your shells till they get fairly close.
-Matt

azazel1024 wrote:Steel shot wouldn't have horrible range. Shot range is more limited by the choke of the shotgun, IE the spread pattern then anything kind of like old flintlock muskets were limited by their accuracy. If you can't hit the target reliably at say 100 yards there isn't much point in shooting at it. If you have a 10yd spread pattern at 100yds then there isn't much point in shooting at it as you aren't likely to hit it with anything or not enough to really hurt it.

O, OO or OOO steel buckshot would do a decent job and over 30-80yds it isn't going to lose an appreciable amount more energy then lead would. It would also do a lot more damage at shorter ranges (probably anything under 50yds) then lead would as when it impacts it would transfer its energy much faster due to the low weight. It would also have better penetration as it would tend not to deform on impact with a harder surface. This is all for fairly short ranges, but I wouldn't tend to shot at things at longer ranges with a shotgun unless hunting. Zombie, well they move slow enough that you can save your shells till they get fairly close.
-Matt

It does have horrible range thats why water fowl hunters were so pissed when they had to stop using lead (and switch to lighter steel or bismuth alloys) to avoid the lead contamination that was occuring.

And energey transfer is not going to increase unless the lead was going through the target. Assuming that both a steel ball and a lead ball would have the same energy in the first place (which would only happen if the steel was traveling at MUCH higher velocity since its density and therefore mass/volume is so much less than lead, this increases the surface area to mass ratio which is why steel has so much shorter lethal range than lead, lead can punch through the air better) they would both deliver the same energy as long as both stopped inside the target... the energy is only wasted when the projectile goes through the target. Along those lines the steel would actually have a better chance to go through because it would not deform as much with impacts to flesh and bone. Lead deforms upon impact and drastically slows down because of this. Steel would not deform (and would have to be going much faster than lead in the first place to do the same damage) so would likely through and through more often than lead.

Hmm, I wasn't thinking of the deformation aspect. If the projectile is light enough though, and steel probably doesn't qualify, but I know aluminum does, it transfers its energy faster increasing the hydrostatic shock of the impact. It won't penetrate as deeply in to the target, but it will cause more hydrostatic shock trauma within the victim. Of course range is miserable.

Really what you want is a variation on APCR bullets. A soft outer covering, such as resin or plastic that will peel away easily on impact with a rigid or colloid body with a core formed of something like tungsten carbide that is going to be really hard and heavy. Preferably a fragmenting WC core, probably prestressed or scored so that it fragments upon impact. Some more recent tank shells work on this principal of a fragmenting WC penetrator rod that can penetrate through the armor and then fragment upon penetration. Not sure how possible it would be to design it to fragment on impact with a colloid body or fragment after penetration of a hard surface (such as body armor). At any rate, a sabot isn't probably ideal in this situation and an armor piercing composite rigid or I guess mine would be called APCF armor piercing composite fragmenting would really be ideal.

Probably very expensive bullets though.

Old style APCR doesn't work well as overall shell weight, just like using fully steel bullets, just don't weigh enough to carry energy over longer distances and are much less effective at armor piercing long ranges, my idea would have a similar shell weight to the original bullet, but have a much smaller piercing/impact point due the shedding of the outer bullet shell with a hard heavy, fragmenting center core. Heck come to think of the plastic/resin was hard enough on a colloid impact it might stay semi-intact and cause a greater wound channel and faster bullet stopping without the need for fragmentation of the core, but on hard surface impact it would strip the outer shell and allow the hard, dense center core to better penetrate then a larger jacketed or non-jacket slug would.

I guess we are kind of out of the realm of survivalists making due after the rise of the zombies. Though I guess you could, if you made two bullet molds, be able to do a variation by molding a core out of SS and then jacketing it in the second mold with lead. It'd probably carry momentum a little less well, but on striking a hard surface it wouldn't deform nearly as much and probably be better against something like a zombie skull at short and medium ranges, though a regular FMJ would probably be better at long and extreme ranges.
-Matt

azazel1024 wrote:

Shawn Merrow wrote:The weights they use to align car tires are also lead.

I keep forgetting about that. Yeah, so that means any tire shop is going to have a ready supply, many mechanic's shops, some car dealers and basically any car will have some amount. Considering the size and weight any given car might have enough for 2-10 bullets and any of the shops, etc are likely to have enough for hundreds to thousands of bullets worth of lead.
-Matt

Working in the field I have to say yes that would be a good souce....however the ones on tires might not be enough to make a bullet...I have balanced tires that alomost took no wieght. Also they are not that easy to remove to haverst from cars. I would probably concentrate on tire places fisrt...auto dealers second...mechanic shops last( because they are most likely to farm that work out to tire places). You would also pick up the tool that would make taking off weights from cars a lot easier. Though the place where I worked out...had tons. But the best place would be a distributor of these things...raid it once with a big enough truck and you should never need lead again.

Also another good place for lead would be scrap metal places.

Two of the highest value commodities you will find after the fall will be Black Powder and Alcohol, just as the bard (Leslie Fish) said

Citizen Lazlo wrote:

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Two of the highest value commodities you will find after the fall will be Black Powder and Alcohol, just as the bard (Leslie Fish) said

Of course you can make both with a few tools and ingredients.

And knowledge! Don't forget knowledge. Most people, even if handed the perfect set of ingredients for the above, wouldn't know what to do. The alcohol might come about naturally, though it'd be pretty rough stuff. Black Powder on the other hand, that'd take some knowledge.

It seems that cash would be very easy to come across in DR and lose it value (in some cases I'd think that it would be just laying in the streets.) Gold is mankinds one contant, Hores of Zombies running around is terrifiying but so were screaming hordes of vikings Slaying, raping and tortching everything. Folks fought for Survival then and it didn't make gold obsolete. precious metals have been used since the beginning of time to get other to part with goods and services. Carrying 18 cans of green beans and seven boxes of ammo for trade would become impractical. A samwich bag full of looted gold rings on the other hand may prove quite useful. Seeds for growing crops may also become extremely valuable in some circles.

Viking/barbarian invasions don't hold a torch to zombie apocalypse (hell some areas might see an invasion once in a generation, as opposed to once a week brain raids). In the former civiliazation still existed and heck the vikings/barbarians could often be reasoned with/bribed. Zombies can't be and 0 civilization. Gems, jewlery and gold would hold little value. Maybe not none, but very little compared to survival items.
-Matt

What ratio would you give to gold:food?

Id say 1 lb of gold would be worth 40-50 lbs of dried food (grain/pasta/jerky/dried fruit/hard tack) or 80-100 lbs of wet food (fresh produce/fresh meet/fresh bread).

If only for the casting of gold bullets it would have some survival value. Its heavy and soft so would be good at retaining momentum and would not erode your barrel.

Plus those, that survive the whole apocalypse and begin to repopulate, and that have chosen to stockpile gold and other precious metals would be those to restart banking economies.

Ubiquity wrote:

bradshaw wrote:It seems that cash would be very easy to come across in DR and lose it value (in some cases I'd think that it would be just laying in the streets.) Gold is mankinds one contant, Hores of Zombies running around is terrifiying but so were screaming hordes of vikings Slaying, raping and tortching everything. Folks fought for Survival then and it didn't make gold obsolete. precious metals have been used since the beginning of time to get other to part with goods and services. Carrying 18 cans of green beans and seven boxes of ammo for trade would become impractical. A samwich bag full of looted gold rings on the other hand may prove quite useful. Seeds for growing crops may also become extremely valuable in some circles.

Sorry Mr. Bradshaw, but I have to agree with the others in this matter (though I wholeheartedly agree about the seeds). I don't care if you have a bar of platinum, it does me NO good whatsoever in the zombie apocalypse. Most people, including me, would be hard pressed to raise crops well, assuming you could find a place of safety to do so, much less repair and clean guns, make ammo, create an ozone water purifier and a multitude of other things. Ammo, food, alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), certain spices, a LifeStraw... these matter. Precious metal? Not so much.

"Hi, got a bar of gold here... trade for that case of canned green beans? No? How about 6 .38 bullets? Yes? Thanks!" :BANG: "Wow... now i have 5 bullets, a case of green beans and a bar of gold!"

Ok, or
DR Man:"Hey kid. Will you stand here and make sure nothing Creepy comes around while I stealthly check this boat landing out?
DR Kid:Sure Mist'a but I ain't doing it for free.
Dr Man: No prob, Kid let me just go and get my Wheel barrow full of Spam ,ammo crates and 50 gallon drum of gasoline so we can work out a deal.

a guns and a will to use it . if you think it's of worth it's of worth . trade . steel ,lumber 2x4's....

hand_of_vecna wrote:Having a working knowledge of physics and mettalurgy but limited knowledge of fire arms I was wondering would gold bullets be superior for all the reasons that aluminum/steel ones are inferior?

and no stripping wires and other parts from existing structures and electronics or from an electrician's van or a store would be much easier than making them from scratch.

That would be my thoughts. Gold being heavier than lead would carry its momentum without much loss to air friction (unlike aluminium) and being soft would not errode the barrel (unlike steel).

Would it be better than lead? Not likely, but it might be just as good and sometimes easier to come by (depending on where you are searching).

Gold is in fact heavier than lead. Meaning that the muzzle velocity should be less than lead given an equal volume, however because of the weight difference it would hit about as hard as lead.
Energy = Mass x Velocity. For sake of example equations below: How much gun powder determines initial energy, once the explosion happens the slug has mass and speed. When bullet hits Zed the bullet's mass and speed impart it's energy to the zombie. There is air friction involved but that is far too much math for me to explain at 4:30 in the AM(lets pretend that it doesn't exist here as it would give gold a slight edge of less than .5hp in the damage department) Where you would see the most air friction would be aluminum. Steel shot has other problems that if not cooled and poured correctly the metals in the steel will possibly separate(I may be wrong about steel separating when molten but there is more than just one metal in that mix).

For example you fire a 100grain round and it puts 1oz lead out at 1000f/s, 1.12 oz of gold would be expelled at 892f/s(These number are made up for demonstration only).

Each metal has a different melting point gold for instance is about 2000 degrees Fahrenheit Lead about 625. You would need an acetylene torch or furnace to melt gold. You can melt lead over a good camp fire in a tuna can.

I like the idea of gold but it is not practical for most survivors to use for casting bullets. Silver melts at about 1750 degrees. Copper about 1100. Bismuth is 510, tin is 620 and Cadmium is 440. Cadmium and lead are both very poisonous Cadmium being more so. Bismuth is used to mix in some fire arm ammo.

If you wanted to get the most out of your lead. I would suggest something like a steel core round. Find some rogue steel that is small enough to fit inside a lead housing and into the "shell" make the round with steel in the middle, and you have a reasonably heavy round, that is in theory better for the barrel as it has the soft lead to not score it when fired.(This is my theory, I would happily be wrong.) Using less lead = good. If you have access to a foundry, make gold bullets, if you have an acetylene torch, save it you can cut thick steel plates for defenses.

Good night all!

You need velocity to ensure the bullet tumbling/mushrooming upon impact. Also the higher the velocity the greater the hydrostatic shock in the victim. So a heavy, slow moving slug actually does less damage on impact then a fast light slug does.

Now steel isn't ideal because it doesn't really fragment, nor mushroom on impact AND it also loses velocity quickly. A steel bullet at close range would have significantly better hydrostatic shock damage then a lead bullet, but it also not going to deform and thus might be lower as it travels through the person and carries some of its velocity with it.

What is ideal is a saboted super dense projectile, at least for penetrations sake. Titanium carbide and depleted uranium are used for this in tank guns. I've seen some recent attempts at this with pistol and rifle rounds. The smallest common use I have seen is in 20mm canon rounds. A 12.7mm subcaliber DU or WC (tungsten carbide) round is mounted to a 20mm projectiles base using a plastic sabot. You have all the propellant force from the 20mm cartridge and all the surface area of the 20mm bullet to push on, but once it leaves the barrel you only have a 12.7mm round's frontal surface area to slow the bullet as well as a 12.7mm's impact area to force itself through the target.

Really against zombies your best bet is lead or lead-anitmony alloys possibly with a partial or full copper jacket. Best combination of mass and penetration ability. Subcaliber saboted rounds are best against really hard targets, high mass bullets have more bullet drop reducing accuracy somewhat (though lighter rounds have less accuracy in high winds), light bullets tend to lose velocity quickly.

Light rounds like alluminum rounds are actually pretty good at short ranges because of how quickly they transfer energy in to their target. Though if you want the same effect a glaser round will work just dandy. Though you'd want something with a bit more penetration to ensure proper wounding, say something filled with #5 bird shot instead of the #12 that is currently used or maybe some cobination, such as #12 bird shot with a few #4 buckshot balls mixed in.
-Matt

I think that coins could be very useful, if not in the fashion that they were originally intended. Two $20 rolls of quarters would make for an effective impromptu hand weights, acting as an additional 1d4/6 to punches. My grandfather (someone who had far more than his share of drunken escapades) mentioned this as a cheap, and LEGAL, way to carry brass knuckles. The cops can't bust you for having money on you, and its easy enough to acquire and dispose of if you have to.

You could dump a bunch of them into a sock/bag in order to get a makeshift kosh/blackjack. Break into a bank or armored car and grab the bags of coins, tie a rope to the ceiling of your building, and the bag to the other, and you've got a very 'Home Alone' style defense; it might not kill any of the zeds, but it would knock one down. Once its down, run away/up to it with your crowbar, have your sniper shoot it, etc. Used in conjunction with an inclined floor and an oil slick defense, you could keep the zeds away for a good long time.

Potato canon defense, get a bunch of PVC piping, coins, and some gunpowder/gas. Pack the pipe with the coins and use it like a shotgun. Most likely wouldn't kill many of them or very efficiently, but 'some' is better than 'none', especially if its used as a fixed position defense by the women or children. Get enough 'bullets' flying and some of them have to have an effect. Heck, the PVC could be used as a melee weapon in a pinch if you were desperate enough, might make a decent stabbing weapon if you broke/sharpened it the right way.

Weights. Put a bunch of quarters in coffee cans and use them to prop your doors open, that way if you are in a hurry with shamblers on your heel you can go through the door at speed (with your arms full of ammo/food/gear/wounded) and just kick the can out of the way. Works especially well if your door automatically lock behind you. For that matter, a coffee can of quarters could be a decent enough killing tool if you dropped it on somebody from a roof top. For burying the dead as well if your on a ship, put the stiff in a bag, dump a bunch of coins in the bag to weigh the body down.

Distraction. As mentioned above, throw a handful of them to attract attention, works especially well of your in an area with lots of metal objects or tanks. All those echoes would make it hard to tell where you are, whether your opponent is alive or dead.

Use them as a method of marking the way out, put a penny on all of the primary escape route, dimes on the secondary, quarters on the tertiary, etc. Or use them to block the way, get a whole bunch of the rolls (several thousand dollars worth), and cover the floor with them on certain passages. People step on them, they roll, and the invaders slip and fall, hopefully cracking their heads open.

Construction/Demolition. Several times I've been building something or taking it apart, only to not have a screwdriver on hand/at all. Rather than destroy the item totally, or put off using it, I've used a quarter or dime to turn the screws. Efficient? No. Easy? Definitely not. Effective? Mostly, you can't really get a decent amount of 'tightness' with coinage, but if you only have your hands and a coin, you do what you can and hope that you find a screwdriver later on.

Obviously, none of these would be as effective as something specifically designed for the task, but when in a pinch, you use what you've got and pray that it works. And somewhere out there in Dead Reign, you just know that some poor schmoe driving an van for a vending company ends up holed up in a house with 4-5,000 dollars in quarters as his primary resource.

Necessity is the mother of invention after all, and not all mothers are nice... Well, just my two cents anyways.

Well, human nature has certainly changed over time. In a dire situation, most people won't value money very much.

How many people would be willing to give $10,000 for a seat on the last plane to leave a warzone before the city was overrun by murdering, rapist rebels? Probably anyone who had $10,000. How many people on that plane would be willing to give up their seat if they were paid $10,000?

Probably no one.

Same deal. If I have a couple of guns and some ammo and you offer to give me a whole bag full of coins for one of my guns and a handful of ammo I'd probably laugh at you. Now offer me that generator in the back of your truck, a couple of cans of gas and a few cans of soup, you might have yourself a deal.

Until there is some sort of limited and stable economy setup money is worthless in all forms. Barter is basically it (goods or services). With some stable safe haven communities that are willing to trade, especially big ones you might see a limited resurgence of precious metal 'money/trade' begining again as it is much more convenient to carry around. That said, real goods are always going to be of more value away from these safe haven communities.

You can't shoot a gold bar, but you can a gun. You can't eat a silver coin, but you can a packet of top ramen.
-Matt

Hunter gatherer societies had no use for precious metals. It took farming and established economies to make precious metals valuable. Even shells and jewlery had somewhat limited value in a hunter gatherer society. Sure they were pretty and people would barter with them as high value goods frequently, but if you are down on your luck and the other person is as well, they aren't going to trade for it. Its not like most of the rest of recorded human history where someone can go "Hey, you know what, sure I don't have a lot of food or water left, but I can just walk down to the store, or ye old grainary and buy some food with the gold pendant you want to give me for it"

Guess what our society has become in an apocalyptic zombie scenario. Hunter gatherer. Sure barter of goods or services is worth something. Even something pretty to look at is worth something, just maybe not much any more. A couple of vials of penicillin is probably worth 10x its weight in gold.

Gold has no value in a hunter gatherer society other than looking pretty. Silver pretty much the same. A very small handful of people have the know how and the ability to use silver for anything useful, such as water purification as you mentioned and frankly ozone cleaning is easier to setup and perform than a silver microbio filter.

Silver isn't really going to get any value back until there is some kind of real economy, which requires farming and safe haven communities that are truely safe and established.

Give it a few years and silver and possibly gold probably will start to gain some value back. Until then you are better off carrying the same weight in food than in gold or silver. Much more value in barter for 99% of people you might run across...and for that matter if you don't run across anyone infinitely more valuable for you. Silver and gold have little nutritional value, don't keep you warm at night, and other than maybe as a heavy object to be thrown, aren't going to kill a zombie.
-Matt

Very low value compared to copper though. There is copper wire in almost everything. Electronics, appliances, buildings and houses, vehicles, the list goes on. Much easier to salvage copper wiring from any of those than to find a sufficient amount of gold to melt to 24k purity and then extrude through a wire die.

Everyone has made arguments on why gold or silver have value and pretty much all of them are in rather specialized scenarios and/or require industry and an economy to make them valuable, in any meaningful way, again.
-Matt

Luckluster wrote:Another note...

I firmly believe that humans do not change. Even in the circumstances of a DR environment, humans will still want shiny/ and or beautiful things. Women will still wear makeup and jewelry (Especially in a safe haven environment). Human nature does not change, so precious metals will still have value everywhere there are humans to put value on them.

seconded

In my festering eyes things like:

antibiotics
ointments (untreated rashes from poor hygene would/could be problematic)
first aid stuff
cigarretes
lighters or matches
petro-chemicals (gas, diesel, lighter fluid)
propane
batteries
canned food
ammunition
Kool Aid...doesn't spoil (good to cover the iodine taste from your purified water)
Coffee and Tea (powdered creamer also)
camping gear
viagra
porn

....would be more worthwhile than a bag of blood caked nickels.

I know how to do lost foam casting. Can use that to make a mold for bullets.

For bullet casings I don't know that you can really use a mold. Aren't modern bullet casings using extruded brass (most of them at least that are brass) for strength?

Of course getting a ready supply of foam might not be the easiest thing in the world once the zombies appear, but you have to admit that hobby stores and places like Michael's, Jo Ann's, AC Moore, etc probably aren't going to be that throughly picked over compared to most places. Probably still be able to find some foam here and there (hell you could maybe get away with using upholstery foam, but I don't know that it is rigid enough, never tried it with that).
-Matt

azazel1024 wrote:For bullet casings I don't know that you can really use a mold. Aren't modern bullet casings using extruded brass (most of them at least that are brass) for strength?

Could you, potentially, re-use the shells/casings from spent bullets? Technically, wouldn't you just have to fill a spent shell with some gunpowder and a new projectile? I'm asking cuz I don't honestly know if it's possible. And if it is, then this becomes a way to save on melting down metal unnecessarily to create casings. Then again, you'd have to spend time collecting all of the spent casings, but still.

Severus Snape wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:For bullet casings I don't know that you can really use a mold. Aren't modern bullet casings using extruded brass (most of them at least that are brass) for strength?

Could you, potentially, re-use the shells/casings from spent bullets? Technically, wouldn't you just have to fill a spent shell with some gunpowder and a new projectile? I'm asking cuz I don't honestly know if it's possible. And if it is, then this becomes a way to save on melting down metal unnecessarily to create casings. Then again, you'd have to spend time collecting all of the spent casings, but still.

You can, several times in fact, but you also need primers to set off the gunpowder when the firing pin hits.

If you properly anneal the cartridges there's no real limit to their reuse, but this is a skilled and time consuming job.