Are you fed up with palladium?

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:10 am

*****

Aku-Arkaine · Unread post by **Aku-Arkaine** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:07 am

You haven't actually paid yet. They don't bill you for a pre-order or back order until they ship it.

And I gotta agree with the previous guy, Palladium has only met one deadline in the last ten years (baring Rifters): that was Systems Failure.

BookWyrm · Unread post by **BookWyrm** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:54 am

Hollister, there's a simple solution; if you're done dealing with Palladium, you can try something else. There are plenty of other games out there, and you should be able to find something that will satisfy your particular tastes.
You do have the right to voice your opinion, I'm not denying you that, I'm saying that you have the option of moving on.

Have a nice day.

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:05 pm

*****

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:38 pm

Not printing those two books also may have kept Palladium alive at a time when they lost several hundred thousand dollars and have since struggled to make up.

As cool as I think BTS is, it's a slow seller for Palladium, and they couldn't afford any slow sellers at the time and still can't.

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:41 am

*****

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:54 am

They published it in the first place because they thought they had the breathing room to let it out and still recoup the costs and make a profit over time. After they got hosed for several hundred thousand dollars, they no longer had that bubble of time between when they published a boo and when it could pay off - so they've instead focused on books they felt would sell faster and cover the bills and debts that were due almost immediately.

Kevin's posted many times he wants to make these books, but until the company is in a better place, he has to put out stuff that he feels will keep the company afloat rather than books he just wants to.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:58 am

HOllister.....as much as I agree with your sentiments, and I do, fact is they were bled near dry and are following the trends to make money.

However to show I am on your side of the argument here on this matter, they have not oly book out many books but have put out 2 entirely new games in Dead Reign and Robotech. If they were willing to take those risks why not risk the 2 BTS books? That is what baffles me. Dead Reign as a sourcebook instead of a new game (as I understand it Kevins version is vastly differnet than the original creators) woudl have fit in with BTS since BTS is SUPPOSED to be PB Horror genre game is it not? Also re-getting the Robotech license, while cool and I was glad they did, was another risk in that they coudl have completed more Rifts books (the company's REAL money maker) instead and maybe they would find themselves in a better financial position now than they do.....

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:16 am

Robotech has been a major money maker for Palladium in the past (it and TMNT made the company recognizable and paved the way for the launch of Rifts). It has a ready made audience who haven't had an RPG book published for their product in about a decade. So it wasn't really a high risk situation.

Dead Reign was a bit more of a risk, but the genre is popular (ie Left 4 Dead video games, AFMBE RPG, Zombie Survival Guide and hordes of zombie movies) and it apparently sold well. The dispute with the writers seems to have served to raise more attention for the work instead of driving customers away.

These were calculated risks based upon what Kevin believed the sales figures might be like. We've also seen books for Heroes, Rifts, and Nightbane released during this time. Also, a large number of older Palladium titles were re-released as PDFs (including first edition BTS). So Kevin is committed to a variety of lines, as long as those lines look like they will pay the immediate bills.

When Palladium isn't so close to the line - hopefully soon - we'll see some more of the slower books or personal project books appear, but this isn't the 90's anymore, when Rifts was pulling it in hand over fist and the smaller lines could get expanded. Times have changed.

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:25 am

*****

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:30 am

Jefffar wrote:Robotech has been a major money maker for Palladium in the past (it and TMNT made the company recognizable and paved the way for the launch of Rifts). It has a ready made audience who haven't had an RPG book published for their product in about a decade. So it wasn't really a high risk situation.

Dead Reign was a bit more of a risk, but the genre is popular (ie Left 4 Dead video games, AFMBE RPG, Zombie Survival Guide and hordes of zombie movies) and it apparently sold well. The dispute with the writers seems to have served to raise more attention for the work instead of driving customers away.

These were calculated risks based upon what Kevin believed the sales figures might be like. We've also seen books for Heroes, Rifts, and Nightbane released during this time. Also, a large number of older Palladium titles were re-released as PDFs (including first edition BTS). So Kevin is committed to a variety of lines, as long as those lines look like they will pay the immediate bills.

When Palladium isn't so close to the line - hopefully soon - we'll see some more of the slower books or personal project books appear, but this isn't the 90's anymore, when Rifts was pulling it in hand over fist and the smaller lines could get expanded. Times have changed.

Jeffar while I agree to a point, Robotech was still a risk as now we have delays based on HG and PB seemingly has a lot less control over what they can and cannot do and it is adversely affecting the release of books (see the Marin book as an exmple as it was supposed to be out many months ago).

As for Dead Reign, I do not dispute the fact Zombies were at the time very popular and are stil now to a lesser degree. It is probably why there is this sudden Vampire Sourcebook that will be coming out in thenear future so they can capitilize on the recent Vampire Craze. That is all well and good but Dead Reign could have been, and in myopinion shoudl have been setup as a sourcebook/setting book for use WITH BTS. This inturn could have boosted sales for BTS and given them the financial reason to do the additional books that they are waiting for. I question why it was made as a seperate and distinct game is all.

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:31 am

Holister:

BTS-2 Main Book: Advertised as 256 Pages
Tome Grotesque: Advertised as 160 Pages
Beyond Arcanum - no advertised page count, but the price point puts at about 192 pages.

Total Page Count for basic game, complete list of monsters and full magic rules: 508 pages.

How the heck was that supposed to be released as 1 book?

jaymz:

It was probably made a separate game in part for thematic reasons (BTS is a horror game, Dead Reign is an action-horror-post apocalyptic game) and because the BTS label and sourcebook only status probably would have cut into it's sales potential.

jaymz · Unread post by **jaymz** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:45 am

Jefffar wrote:
It was probably made a separate game in part for thematic reasons (BTS is a horror game, Dead Reign is an action-horror-post apocalyptic game) and because the BTS label and sourcebook only status probably would have cut into it's sales potential.

Oh I understand why it was done that way, to garner attention of more of the masses than BTS would. I myself just question the overall value to it was all. It could have just as easily garnered more support FOR BTS had it been a sourcebook. No real way to knwo either way since it is what it is.

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:00 pm

*****

Jasper · Unread post by **Jasper** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:34 pm

I have a couple different comments.

For one: I am of the opinion that KS is simply not inspired to write any BTS stuff. Maybe the low sales discouraged him (did it have low sales? must have if there are no supplements) and since BTS2 was written by KS himself and is his personal project I could understand. If there is any kind of a market for BTS2 supplements though I think he should just hand over his notes to another writer and let them finish off the supplements. I know it sounds like I am making a big assumption here but I think he is just not into writing the material anymore for whatever reason.

For two: One reason I hear Palladium isn't putting out BTS2 supplements is that they need to concentrate on for-sure money makers. When the whole "Crisis" situation happened I bought a bunch of Palladium books from a local store then made a couple more orders direct from Palladium itself to support them, buying books I never would have bought otherwise, like the Fantasy books which I never had before. I did this partially for selfish reasons: if Palladium failed there would be no BTS2 supplements. A couple years ago I pretty much had everything put out by Palladium ever going back to Mechanoids but the only game we've kept playing is BTS. A couple years ago, finally growing frustrated with no supplements I figured that if Palladium was only putting out known money makers then I would vote with my money and stop buying their products which I didn't play (which if everything but BTS now). After all, if buying Rifts books, etc, to support Palladium (and to read of course, I still enjoyed them, just didn't play them) was only going to encourage MORE Rifts books then it was a bad idea (from my perspective).

So until I see a BTS2 supplements I am continuing spending my hard earned money elsewhere. I still come back to Palladium website frequently and go to the Press Release section and use Ctrl-F to search for any "supernatural" references to see if any new books are coming out and I check the board here still in hopes for rumours of the same. If Palladium puts out BTS2 books I will start buying their other products to support them but until then ...

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:01 pm

Holister wrote:BTS-1 had everything it needed in one book. Explain that one away Jeffar.

Easily, let's look at what has happened to Palladium main books as the new editions came out.

Heroes started at 258 pages then moved to 352 pages (plus a 224 page GM's book, so 576 pages total).

Rifts went from 256 pages to 376 pages on it's last updating (plus also added in a 352 page GM's guide and similar sized Book of Magic, so 1080 pages total).

Palladium core books are growing for a variety of factors - the biggest being the expansion in the rules, more elaborate flavour text the number of character classes, more creatures/equipment and an increasing number psychic and magic powers.

BTS, was already flavour text heavy before, as it is primarily an atmosphere based game (ie you have to establish the right atmosphere to play the game). The number of core classes was substantially increased for the game as were the number of psychic powers. Add in the rules expansion (and some setting specific additional rules that inflate that section even more) and the 256 page main book was too small to hold magic, critters and an expanded equipment list. As noted, Heroes Unlimited and Rifts both now have multiple core books because of this.

Holister wrote:They need to stop following the trend band wagon and stick to what made the company great.

You mean like Rifts, Robotech and TMNT - the games that powered the company for most of its history?

mrloucifer · Unread post by **mrloucifer** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:44 pm

There are other factors concerning why the books havent been published yet and have been discussed in other topics in this section. I encourage you to do some researching and read over the various posts (some of which were posted by myself after talking with Kevin about BTS directly). You will find your answers.

Jasper · Unread post by **Jasper** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:30 pm

Laux the Ogre wrote:Holister,

Stop your *****. I've been waiting on "Mechanoid Space" for quite some time...
As well as the following Rifts titles: Africa 2, Japan 2, Lemuria, Australia 2, and Lazlo...
And ANYTHING for System Failure...
And character sheets that actually work...
And a few more Chaos Earth supplements...

AND I'M NOT *****.

Times are hard, BTS has never been a moneymaker, and Palladium always promises more than they can deliver.

GET OVER IT.

You've missed the point. Mechanoids, Rifts and System Failure are all complete games that can be played. BTS2 is missing required rules, that's a lot different then waiting for optional supplements.

Though Mechanoids Space would be cool.

Natasha · Unread post by **Natasha** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:17 am

Never had a problem playing second edition either. *shrug*

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:31 pm

*****

GreenGhost · Unread post by **GreenGhost** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:24 pm

Palladium is simply a business. If they were to just pump out books that some people "believe" that they should the company would fall into the red and have to shut their doors for good. Jefffar is completely right. As much as I love the BTS setting Palladium simply CANNOT throw the money away and hope for possible profits on down the road. I bought the 2 Ed. BTS as soon as it came out and have been wanting Tombs and Arcanum ever since I first heard about them, but I'm realistic when it comes to the fact that Palladium is a business and they need to do what's good for business and to do what they need to in order to keep their doors open and survive, which includes releasing dozens of new books that make money.

I understand and respect the fact that everyone has their own opinions about what they think would be a good money maker for the company, but the reality of it all is that Palladium has been in business for long enough to know what sells and what doesn't.

Palladium definately didn't try pulling a "Bait and Switch" on everyone. If so there wouldn't be so many of us that's been fans of the game for so long. Trust me- I've seen A LOT of missed release dates and books that had never came out throughout my nearly 23 years of gaming Palladium, but within that time I have NEVER seen anything that would point to any kind of "Bait and Switch" done by Palladium.

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:03 pm

I agree with Ninjabunny. If you want people to stop complaining about these books, take them down from the catalog. BtS 2 is not the first book I have purchased that was incomplete. It IS the first book that I purchased that was incomplete that never got finished though. That does upset me, but such is life. I am more cautious of my Palladium purchases now. I no longer buy any of their books except the Robotech books. And since those have been pushed back, I have not purchased a single Palladium product in probably over a year. Sad considering I used to buy everything they released.

If they released BtS again (not as a pdf but as an actual book) I would pick that up.

Lord Z · Unread post by **Lord Z** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:57 pm

I am interested in trading for that signed copy. What might you want in trade, H?

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:18 pm

*****

Lord Z · Unread post by **Lord Z** » Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:16 pm

Removed...

Gallahan · Unread post by **Gallahan** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:29 am

All the frustration vented here deals directly with the fact that BTS is such a profound, fantastic game. It's been around since the late 80s/early 90s. I discovered it a while ago and fell in love with it. Yes, Palladium really needs to satisfy the needs of BTS fans. Also, they must weigh economic considerations, one of which is the "sudden" popularity of the zombie genre. Zombie movies have been around since before most of us were born, but for some reason, in the last 5-10 years, the genre has really exploded. Now that Dead Reign and its supplement are out, Palladium might/should focus a little bit on BTS. Heck, they could even begin all sorts of 'stand-alone' games like Dead Reign focused on separate genres of horror, such as the UFO and government conspiracy aspect, the bigfoot and cryptoids aspect, and ghost-hunting aspect. BTS would then be the equivalent of the RIFTS core book to all these horror sub-games.

Either way, BTS is such an open-ended kind of game that is so broad that the best stories would be those created by GMs. All you have to do as a GM is to visit websites like Coast to Coast AM to get story ideas and translate them into game terms. There's a lot out there. There are a LOT of good BOOKS out there. Yeah, it takes some reading, but at least you can apply that knowlegde outside the game, broaden your horrific horizons.

For real, there are people around the country who have sighted Bigfoot, reptoids, man-wolves, hell-hounds, lake monsters, UFOs, etc. And a lot of them are not "kooks" but are policemen, firemen, park rangers, pilots, active duty military and the like. Whether any of their sightings are real or not, they make great fodder for story ideas. So, go to sites like Earthfiles and EnterpriseMission and CoasttoCoastam. I left the .com portion of the addresses out in case it violates some message board rules.

It's been a while since I've posted.

In the end, yeah, I agree, Palladium needs to release sourcebooks for BTS, their MOST NEGLECTED GAME.

MikeM · Unread post by **MikeM** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:36 pm

Obviously Kevin no longer has an interest in writing the BtS books. But what about freelancers? Are there no books because there are no freelancers interested in writing some BtS books or is Kevin simply not interested in any manuscripts for the line? With the popularity of TV shows such as Medium (granted it's dwindling now), Ghost Whisperer and Supernatural (awesome, awesome show. It's like a gaming session every week) I thought for sure a line like BtS would do ok. Granted it's not going to hit Rifts numbers but it should at least hit Heroes Unlimited numbers.

MikeM

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:22 am

I can't understand why they still list them as preorder at this point. The delay of both books may have killed the game line. Why even release the core BTS2 book if they did not plan on releasing the other two books. A waste of time and energy to have an incomplete game that may not even do well if the two missing books are released. Sure I could make up stop for it but why bother when I can just us the New world of Darkness and have all the support I need. Man am I glad I decided to borrow a copy from a freind and not buy it. Too often lately it seems they release a new game then it never seems to progress beyond the core book. Splicers is an example. BTS2 is another. Iam surprsied with Splicers. So much poential yet beyond Rifter artciles nothing at all.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:23 am

Laux the Ogre wrote:Haha!
You expected Palladium to get things out on time? Like a real gaming company? Are you high?

You almost made me spit my coffee on the screen.

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:51 pm

I have actually decided to sell my signed copy of BTS 2 on ebay this week. In the mean while I am just going to stick with what works for me; good ol' BtS 1 and Boxed Nightmares. I will supliment additional material with other books once I acquire them.

PS: I saw the Beyond Arcanum posted under Half.com as a preorder item... :roll:

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:27 pm

I think we stand a better chance of this happening before we see the BTS2 books: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhAobPugvsk . Remeber this. IAfter looking at the intro I am kind of inspiried.

- The year 2005 from out of nowhere a rogue employee steals from Palladium
- Unleashing comsic fninacial destruction
- Palladium is almost cast into ruin
- But one game designer dares to go against industry standard and release an incomplete game
-The Game BTS2 the designer Kevin Seimbeda
- He pits his strength, his courage and his fabulous writing pen against the forces of his detrators

HE IS KEVIN SIEMBEDA RPG DESiGNER!

Jefffar · Unread post by **Jefffar** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:05 pm

Timeline note, Kevin released BTS2 and then the theft was discovered preventing immediate follow up. I actually have correspondence from Kevin before the theft was uncovered mentioning how much he was looking forward to finishing the second and third book.

Holister · Unread post by **Holister** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:12 pm

I offered a Lazlo Society Membership Discount when I posted my BtS-2 on Ebay..

GreenGhost · Unread post by **GreenGhost** » Sat May 01, 2010 10:08 pm

Jefffar wrote:Timeline note, Kevin released BTS2 and then the theft was discovered preventing immediate follow up. I actually have correspondence from Kevin before the theft was uncovered mentioning how much he was looking forward to finishing the second and third book.

Agreed.

runebeo · Unread post by **runebeo** » Fri May 07, 2010 11:06 pm

I've been saying for years & years put the two books together, half on magic other on old & new creatures and get the book out. At one point Kevin wrote like 4 years ago in one of his murmurs either Tome grotesque or magic Beyond was only a few weeks away from being done. I'm sure most of us just really need to know how the magic system & magic users were going to work. The art for the creatures has posted on the artist site for a few years as well. If they have too use the Rifter and make it official like they did with Rifter 50, just to get this game moving.

Ziggurat the Eternal · Sat May 22, 2010 12:58 am

This should be posted in a different forum. Namely, all things palladium. Namely so kevin can see it, as he is more likely too there.

Also, yes, I am fed up with palladium.

I haven't bought a book in over two years, not counting rifters. I havent bought one of those since 46, and that was the only one I bought since 20. I likely will not buy palladium. I like it, but they dont release what I like. I want system failure. I want Splicers. I want Good Nightbane, and I want BTS. I also want every freaking rifts book they promised since the 90's. They finally got triax 2, the first in a long line. If they have the money to write unnecessary revised editions, and vampire sourcebooks, they can print bts2. or afrika 2, or any of the australias.

Anthar · Unread post by **Anthar** » Sat May 22, 2010 12:15 pm

Wow, that is an enormous amount of responses to just "*****".

Ziggurat the Eternal · Sat May 22, 2010 12:59 pm

Anthar wrote:Wow, that is an enormous amount of responses to just "*****".

I'm pretty sure that's not what he actually said. Someone probably complained, and he was threatened into changing it. Or he felt it no longer necessary to have his complaint up due to being mollified by the responses he got. Or the ***** is just him repeating a 5 letter curse word over and over.

Hard to tell.

Anthar · Unread post by **Anthar** » Sat May 22, 2010 1:29 pm

Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:
Anthar wrote:Wow, that is an enormous amount of responses to just "*****".

I'm pretty sure that's not what he actually said. Someone probably complained, and he was threatened into changing it. Or he felt it no longer necessary to have his complaint up due to being mollified by the responses he got. Or the ***** is just him repeating a 5 letter curse word over and over.

Hard to tell.

He went and edited it himself, I was just pokeing a little fun at the edit choice and the responses to the original posts that are no longer there.