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If you've been reading the other GB topics you'll know that a certain someone, no names because I don't want to be accused of baiting, and I have been arguing about when the pylons are deployed and why they are deployed. I've provided proof from the book and my opposition states that it isn't so because in the real world... When I provide real world proof for a reason he dismisses that as not according to fluff. I'm interested in your opinions so I'm going to the forums to find that out. So start clicking. If you want to comment please let me know if you are going by the fluff, your opinion, or science. I've set the poll to allow you to change your vote if someone changes your mind. I'll mostly be reading instead of partaking though as my opinion should already be known. Click away.

Natasha wrote:In order for the pylons and jets to negate recoil force, they have to go at the same time as recoil force exerts itself on the GB. If they go before or after the force is exerted, then there's no point to them.

well the pylons don't so much generate force as they do provide resistance. that is, the pylons would have to be deployed before the recoil force exerts itself, because they are there as an anchor, not as a force that pushes the GB in the direction opposite the recoil.

Shark_Force wrote:

Natasha wrote:In order for the pylons and jets to negate recoil force, they have to go at the same time as recoil force exerts itself on the GB. If they go before or after the force is exerted, then there's no point to them.

well the pylons don't so much generate force as they do provide resistance. that is, the pylons would have to be deployed before the recoil force exerts itself, because they are there as an anchor, not as a force that pushes the GB in the direction opposite the recoil.

I agree on the pylons but the jets don't create resistance; if they went before the recoil, they would push the GB into where recoil is going to be.

the recoil begins the moment the round starts accellerating, and thus to function in the role of recoil compensation, the pylons would have to fired before the round starts accellerating, and the thrusters fire as the round accellerates. you know, exactly as described in every write up of the glitterboy ever...

- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom

This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

Re-read things, and so I changed my answer. I was under the impression that the pylons and jets were simultaneous.

I voted: The pylons are deployed right after the trigger is pulled but before the round is accelerated and The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion.

sHaka wrote:- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom

This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

I don't think it's getting in the way of the story. I ask myself, what put the projectile in motion with enough velocity to cause a sonic boom in the first place?

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom
This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

unfortunately, thats not correct. the force being countered isn't from the shockwave, but the recoil from the round being accellerated up to speed. the shockwave is just air displacement from the round passing through. it's a side effect of the projectiles flight, not connected to the recoil.

the pylons are a mounting system to ensure transferrence of backwards momentum into the ground, and the thrusters help offset this momentum by providing forwards momentum. not unlike how a modern feild artillery peice has both a carriage thats staked to the ground and a recoil compensation system. the carriage transfers recoil into the ground so it keeps its place, the recoil compensator reduces the amount being transffered enough to prevent stress on the weapon and mount.

Frankly I don't see the difference between the first two options but I didn't follow the inspiration for this poll very closely so maybe I'm missing something. I can see it being a half-trigger squeeze to deploy the pylons and then complete the squeeze to fire the gun and have the jets go to work. I can see how this describes both of the first two options.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom
This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

unfortunately, thats not correct. the force being countered isn't from the shockwave, but the recoil from the round being accellerated up to speed. the shockwave is just air displacement from the round passing through. it's a side effect of the projectiles flight, not connected to the recoil.

There is a degree of recoil from the projectile leaving the barrel, but, yes, what gets that started is acceleration of the projectile.

Natasha wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom
This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

unfortunately, thats not correct. the force being countered isn't from the shockwave, but the recoil from the round being accellerated up to speed. the shockwave is just air displacement from the round passing through. it's a side effect of the projectiles flight, not connected to the recoil.

There is a degree of recoil from the projectile leaving the barrel, but, yes, what gets that started is acceleration of the projectile.

isn't this what i just said? the recoil comes from the accelleration of the projectile, as a result of second law of motion.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Natasha wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom
This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

unfortunately, thats not correct. the force being countered isn't from the shockwave, but the recoil from the round being accellerated up to speed. the shockwave is just air displacement from the round passing through. it's a side effect of the projectiles flight, not connected to the recoil.

There is a degree of recoil from the projectile leaving the barrel, but, yes, what gets that started is acceleration of the projectile.

isn't this what i just said? the recoil comes from the accelleration of the projectile, as a result of second law of motion.

Yes. Recoil is due to the gas behind the projectile, but there's still two components of recoil: that gas in the barrel and then that gas exiting the barrel.

I'm going to go take a break for a while. I'm having issues today with English.

Natasha wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Natasha wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom
This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

unfortunately, thats not correct. the force being countered isn't from the shockwave, but the recoil from the round being accellerated up to speed. the shockwave is just air displacement from the round passing through. it's a side effect of the projectiles flight, not connected to the recoil.

There is a degree of recoil from the projectile leaving the barrel, but, yes, what gets that started is acceleration of the projectile.

isn't this what i just said? the recoil comes from the accelleration of the projectile, as a result of second law of motion.

Yes. Recoil is due to the gas behind the projectile, but there's still two components of recoil: that gas in the barrel and then that gas exiting the barrel.
I'm going to go take a break for a while. I'm having issues today with English.

i never said gas. i said accelleration. IE the energy being imparted on the projectile to increase it's velocity. it is this energy that causes recoil, as as you impart energy on the projectile, you get an equal and opposite reaction where the thing imparting the energygains the same amount of energy 180 degrees offset.
the RG-15 "boomgun" is a railgun. it uses no explosive propellant. there is no gas involved at all. merely electromagnetic accelleration of the projectile.

i did point out that the shockwave was the result of movement through air, which is a side effect of the projectiles movement after leaving the barrel...but this occurs well after the round ceases accelleration, and thus has nothing to do with recoil.

I should have just taken the break without saying anything to preface it.

I'm having trouble concentrating (on more than English). I was pointing out that there are two recoils, but I was not thinking about rail guns but traditional guns, which was a huge mistake.

So, glitterboy2098, yes, you're absolutely correct.

Seems straight forward to me.

The pylons are deployed right after the trigger is pulled but before the round is accelerated
This one has been pretty well covered as to why it would be the case.

The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion
No brainer.

The pylons instantly fly into action the moment the trigger is pulled. The pylons are necessary due to the knockback generated by the force of the blast.

Seriously folks, you're over thinking this way too much.

More to the point: Why does it matter?

Who ever selected "The pylons never deploy, the pilots just think they do, the company does it to give pilots larger egos about their 'big gun'"... I love that so many people here have a healthy sense of humor.

Natasha wrote:In order for the pylons and jets to negate recoil force, they have to go at the same time as recoil force exerts itself on the GB. If they go before, then there is no point to them. If they go after there isn't much of to them either.

EDIT: I voted: The pylons are deployed when the round is accelerated but before it leaves the muzzle and The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion.

So if the pylon deploys before the recoil and the jets durring the acceleration it wouldn't work?

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom

This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

Can you show me anywhere in real world that a sonic boom creates a recoil?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Natasha wrote:In order for the pylons and jets to negate recoil force, they have to go at the same time as recoil force exerts itself on the GB. If they go before, then there is no point to them. If they go after there isn't much of to them either.

EDIT: I voted: The pylons are deployed when the round is accelerated but before it leaves the muzzle and The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion.

So if the pylon deploys before the recoil and the jets durring the acceleration it wouldn't work?

She corrected herself several times after that post.

sybert1138 wrote:Zer0.... Shame on you! While you left it nameless I sense someone could still call this baiting... regardless, I voted, as per our previous discussion on the matter. Seems to be the majority see it that way as well. You should consider a second poll to determine popular belief on how many actions are taken up by the process of planting, retracting... and such!

Yeah... well he probably would think any of my threads that has me as an author as baiting. Besides it isn't like our little verbal melee is famous through the forums or something. If that were so then yeah I could see it, but since I'm leaving out his name to protect the ino... uh, him. If the mods say its baiting I'll be more than happy to leave any reference to him or 'him' out so I'll start saying her.

Second poll? You can do that I'm not so interested on finding that out as I have always figured that it was automatically deployed and retracted by the computer so it doesn't take up any of your actions. Now the more important poll for me in this would be how does it deploy. For example on harder objects is the GB just screwed and can't fire or is only partial deployment required for the denser materials? Then again with math it was figured out that no armor except maybe glitterboys have more than 3 MDC per square inch, most of them less than 1. Still presents a problem to me though because so much damage has to be done before any MDC skin is "breached" and if the pylons are going through the skin has been breached so... which is it? And if the skin can be breached then why can't the drill be used for a breaching tool?

Natasha wrote:Frankly I don't see the difference between the first two options but I didn't follow the inspiration for this poll very closely so maybe I'm missing something. I can see it being a half-trigger squeeze to deploy the pylons and then complete the squeeze to fire the gun and have the jets go to work. I can see how this describes both of the first two options.

Exact timing and possible tertiary uses.

jorel wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Natasha wrote:In order for the pylons and jets to negate recoil force, they have to go at the same time as recoil force exerts itself on the GB. If they go before, then there is no point to them. If they go after there isn't much of to them either.

EDIT: I voted: The pylons are deployed when the round is accelerated but before it leaves the muzzle and The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion.

So if the pylon deploys before the recoil and the jets durring the acceleration it wouldn't work?

She corrected herself several times after that post.

Ah... you know the more often I do this the more often I think I should read from the bottom up. Thanks.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Natasha wrote:In order for the pylons and jets to negate recoil force, they have to go at the same time as recoil force exerts itself on the GB. If they go before, then there is no point to them. If they go after there isn't much of to them either.

EDIT: I voted: The pylons are deployed when the round is accelerated but before it leaves the muzzle and The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion.

So if the pylon deploys before the recoil and the jets durring the acceleration it wouldn't work?

This post was made in error. I had thought that the two components of the antirecoil system fired simultaneously.

I sincerely apologise for the confusion I made.

Danger wrote:The pylons instantly fly into action the moment the trigger is pulled. The pylons are necessary due to the knockback generated by the force of the blast.

Seriously folks, you're over thinking this way too much.

More to the point: Why does it matter?

Are you reading force of the blast to be sonic boom or the shot?

It doesn't matter. It is all opinion, except where supported by canon material... on the cannon. I just wanted to know what others think.

Natasha wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Natasha wrote:In order for the pylons and jets to negate recoil force, they have to go at the same time as recoil force exerts itself on the GB. If they go before, then there is no point to them. If they go after there isn't much of to them either.

EDIT: I voted: The pylons are deployed when the round is accelerated but before it leaves the muzzle and The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion.

So if the pylon deploys before the recoil and the jets durring the acceleration it wouldn't work?

This post was made in error. I had thought that the two components of the antirecoil system fired simultaneously.

I sincerely apologise for the confusion I made.

Please, no need to apologise. It's my fault for not reading on. Like I said to jorel, I really should read from the bottom up. Besides the text could certainly be read to support that the two components do work simultaniously or it could be read as the system goes into action (a car, or a computer flying into action doesn't mean all of its components are working at the same time. only that it is ready to do so or the process has started) but I understand the various ways it can be understood. I apologise for jumpin on ya before reading all your posts. I think people who've been on the boards for a long time have come to expect that from me.

glitterboy2098 wrote: i never said gas. i said accelleration. IE the energy being imparted on the projectile to increase it's velocity. it is this energy that causes recoil, as as you impart energy on the projectile, you get an equal and opposite reaction where the thing imparting the energygains the same amount of energy 180 degrees offset.
the RG-15 "boomgun" is a railgun. it uses no explosive propellant. there is no gas involved at all. merely electromagnetic accelleration of the projectile.

i did point out that the shockwave was the result of movement through air, which is a side effect of the projectiles movement after leaving the barrel...but this occurs well after the round ceases accelleration, and thus has nothing to do with recoil.

You sure there is no gas? I know the actual acceleration doesn't use gas but many of the modern railguns use gas propellant to accelerate the armature before it enters the rails so that it doesn't get welded to the rails. I always wondered why the GB shell looks like a shotgun shell so recently I figured that it uses some primer and powder to accelerate the sabot/armature into the rails. This would be a small charge too small to cause a recoil with the weight of the gun and the GB... but it would explain why there is an ejection port on the Boomgun... of course that may be to unload a jam too. Meh.

Voted with the physical laws of the universe.

The pylons are deployed right after the trigger is pulled but before the round is accelerated 42% [ 16 ] x
The pylons are necessary because of Newton's third law of motion 42% [ 16 ] x

------------

This one is really funny.

The pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom

What is it going to do? Pull the GB forward?

To all of you out there.

The only two types of acceleration means that can do not cause any sort of recoil. One is the use a localized Gravity Well as the motivator. the other is some sort of inertial-less motivator.

Even rocket launchers cause some recoil, even if it is caused by the expended propelent hitting the launcher.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

There is a degree of recoil from the projectile leaving the barrel, but, yes, what gets that started is acceleration of the projectile.

isn't this what i just said? the recoil comes from the accelleration of the projectile, as a result of second law of motion.

third law. the second law is that Force = Mass times Acceleration.

Okay,

My thoughts and feelings on this.

The Pylons are deployed before the gun is even fired. (Maybe only a split second but still). The reason for this is due to trying to pop 'em in a MDC material. So the GB is thinking about firing, deploys the pylons (maybe with gun in hand.), pulls trigger, the round is accelerated.

The reason I personally disagree with after the trigger is pulled: the pylons may hit MDC and targeting can only help so much(more below about firing with out pylons at the bottom).

I could very well be wrong but if I were designing this power armor I would have a system check to let the pilot know the mech is secured.

As for the 3rd law of motion: Energy = Velocity * Mass. Something cranking out of a gun at 150,000 miles per hour (1/2 the speed of light) or 220,000 Feet per second. Even if only .25Kg were fired that is an astounding 672216111.125 Joules of energy. Which if not for a MDC mech would knock it back at something like 1800m/sec, about 5x's faster than an AK47 round. FYI; with out pylons our GB pilot would be a smear against the inside of the chest plate of the mech. So with that information, I'd put in a safety catch to ensure that the poor pilot would not die.

....

(kinetic) energy is 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. (that is, square the velocity, then multiply the result of that by mass, and divide by two), not mass times velocity.

which is beside the point, because 150,000 miles per hour is:

1) not the speed the glitterboy fires the round, anyways. seriously, half the speed of light is the value you decided to pull out of nowhere?
2) not even expressed in the correct form of measurement. (you would want meters per second for that formula to work out to joules)
3) not a proper reflection of the fact that the force is applied over a time, not instantly.
4) not half the speed of light, which travels at approximately 186,000 miles per *second*, which works out to be a significantly larger number in miles per hour.

also, i'm pretty sure we have a mass given for the glitterboy ammunition. though i'm not sure offhand if it's .25 kg or not.

seriously, if you're going to try to use physics to prove your point, you really should put some effort into using the right equations, and getting the right numbers. this is not to say that there isn't a lot of energy involved (there is), but we do have actual numbers that we can use to calculate the force and/or energy of the glitterboy's flechette rounds. numbers that don't look anything remotely close to half the speed of light.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Natasha wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom
This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

unfortunately, thats not correct. the force being countered isn't from the shockwave, but the recoil from the round being accellerated up to speed. the shockwave is just air displacement from the round passing through. it's a side effect of the projectiles flight, not connected to the recoil.

There is a degree of recoil from the projectile leaving the barrel, but, yes, what gets that started is acceleration of the projectile.

isn't this what i just said? the recoil comes from the accelleration of the projectile, as a result of second law of motion.

I think you missed my broader point which was - what does it matter?

One end makes a big bang and something dangerous come out of it, the other end needs to do something to keep it upright.

Newton can take a jump, I'm GM after all.

Stormchild wrote:The pylons don't matter, they are a cool trinket to sell more units...

It's a tempting choice because of the first clause, but I disagree with the second clause so I couldn't go with it.

Stormchild wrote:I figured that the sonic boom meant that the round broke the sound barrier either before it left the barrel, or AS it left the barrel. IF it was before it left the barrel, then there might be a possibility that it could be going faster than mach 1 (~765mph), but that would cause all kinds of problems on it's own. IF it reached the speed of sound AS it left the barrel, then the force created would not be sufficient to require anchors on such a large mech, since it already has mass and thrusters to compensate.

actually, the round would have to reach the maximum velocity of mach 5 before it left the barrel. remember, it's an electromagnetic effect that accellerates the projectile. once it leaves the barrel, the coils or rails (depending on which types of EM accellerator you prefer) will not be effecting the projectile, and it will be purely ballistic. it can only accellerate while inside the barrel.

if we assume i the round take a full second to go from zero velocity to the full mach 5, arriving at full velocity just prior to leaving the barrel, your looking at a 1500m/s^2 accelleration, or a force of almost 150g's. and a full second is rather a long time when it comes to weapons, it's more likely to be half a second or less.

frankly, if the pylons weren't made out of a high tensile strength material (ie, MC), i'd imagine they's snap, even with the thruster compensation.

the boomgun fires rounds at similar velocity to a modern 120mm cannon. a weapon that causes 70 ton tanks to rock back visably. even if the BG is firing a lighter round (very probable), the recoil would be more than enough to cause a 1.5 ton suit of armor to fly backwards.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote: i never said gas. i said accelleration. IE the energy being imparted on the projectile to increase it's velocity. it is this energy that causes recoil, as as you impart energy on the projectile, you get an equal and opposite reaction where the thing imparting the energygains the same amount of energy 180 degrees offset.
the RG-15 "boomgun" is a railgun. it uses no explosive propellant. there is no gas involved at all. merely electromagnetic accelleration of the projectile.

i did point out that the shockwave was the result of movement through air, which is a side effect of the projectiles movement after leaving the barrel...but this occurs well after the round ceases accelleration, and thus has nothing to do with recoil.

You sure there is no gas? I know the actual acceleration doesn't use gas but many of the modern railguns use gas propellant to accelerate the armature before it enters the rails so that it doesn't get welded to the rails. I always wondered why the GB shell looks like a shotgun shell so recently I figured that it uses some primer and powder to accelerate the sabot/armature into the rails. This would be a small charge too small to cause a recoil with the weight of the gun and the GB... but it would explain why there is an ejection port on the Boomgun... of course that may be to unload a jam too. Meh.

it is possible the BG uses a chemical charge to overcome resting inertia, but it is the electromagnetic force of either successive charged coils, or the lorentz force of bridging two charged rails, that accelelrate the projectile. the chemical charge, if present, is an insignifigant contributer to the overall accelleration.

which leaves my main point, pointing out that even chemical guns have recoil not because of their gases, but because they'd hurling bullets around at high speed. the gases produced in chemical based weapons certainly contribute a little to recoil (being as they are matter moving fast), but they are not the only cause of it.

Chello!


This:

Natasha wrote: I can see it being a half-trigger squeeze to deploy the pylons and then complete the squeeze to fire the gun and have the jets go to work.

I see it as a "two-stage" trigger like on an over or under or a double-barreled shotgun. The first click sets the pylons, the second click fires the weapon. You can, of course, pull through both settings at once. That said, I still feel like the pylons are better handled as a redunantcy measure. that is, they only deploy if the jets are malfunctioning or disabled.

Lord_Dalgard wrote:Chello!


This:

Natasha wrote: I can see it being a half-trigger squeeze to deploy the pylons and then complete the squeeze to fire the gun and have the jets go to work.

I see it as a "two-stage" trigger like on an over or under or a double-barreled shotgun. The first click sets the pylons, the second click fires the weapon. You can, of course, pull through both settings at once. That said, I still feel like the pylons are better handled as a redunantcy measure. that is, they only deploy if the jets are malfunctioning or disabled.

I find that agreeable. Makes sense. Like how my camera focuses before it shoots.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Stormchild wrote:I figured that the sonic boom meant that the round broke the sound barrier either before it left the barrel, or AS it left the barrel. IF it was before it left the barrel, then there might be a possibility that it could be going faster than mach 1 (~765mph), but that would cause all kinds of problems on it's own. IF it reached the speed of sound AS it left the barrel, then the force created would not be sufficient to require anchors on such a large mech, since it already has mass and thrusters to compensate.

actually, the round would have to reach the maximum velocity of mach 5 before it left the barrel. remember, it's an electromagnetic effect that accellerates the projectile. once it leaves the barrel, the coils or rails (depending on which types of EM accellerator you prefer) will not be effecting the projectile, and it will be purely ballistic. it can only accellerate while inside the barrel.

if we assume i the round take a full second to go from zero velocity to the full mach 5, arriving at full velocity just prior to leaving the barrel, your looking at a 1500m/s^2 accelleration, or a force of almost 150g's. and a full second is rather a long time when it comes to weapons, it's more likely to be half a second or less.

frankly, if the pylons weren't made out of a high tensile strength material (ie, MC), i'd imagine they's snap, even with the thruster compensation.

the boomgun fires rounds at similar velocity to a modern 120mm cannon. a weapon that causes 70 ton tanks to rock back visably. even if the BG is firing a lighter round (very probable), the recoil would be more than enough to cause a 1.5 ton suit of armor to fly backwards.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote: i never said gas. i said accelleration. IE the energy being imparted on the projectile to increase it's velocity. it is this energy that causes recoil, as as you impart energy on the projectile, you get an equal and opposite reaction where the thing imparting the energygains the same amount of energy 180 degrees offset.
the RG-15 "boomgun" is a railgun. it uses no explosive propellant. there is no gas involved at all. merely electromagnetic accelleration of the projectile.

i did point out that the shockwave was the result of movement through air, which is a side effect of the projectiles movement after leaving the barrel...but this occurs well after the round ceases accelleration, and thus has nothing to do with recoil.

You sure there is no gas? I know the actual acceleration doesn't use gas but many of the modern railguns use gas propellant to accelerate the armature before it enters the rails so that it doesn't get welded to the rails. I always wondered why the GB shell looks like a shotgun shell so recently I figured that it uses some primer and powder to accelerate the sabot/armature into the rails. This would be a small charge too small to cause a recoil with the weight of the gun and the GB... but it would explain why there is an ejection port on the Boomgun... of course that may be to unload a jam too. Meh.

it is possible the BG uses a chemical charge to overcome resting inertia, but it is the electromagnetic force of either successive charged coils, or the lorentz force of bridging two charged rails, that accelelrate the projectile. the chemical charge, if present, is an insignifigant contributer to the overall accelleration.

which leaves my main point, pointing out that even chemical guns have recoil not because of their gases, but because they'd hurling bullets around at high speed. the gases produced in chemical based weapons certainly contribute a little to recoil (being as they are matter moving fast), but they are not the only cause of it.

Thanks GB you can stop talking to me like I'm an idiot. Didn't I just say that? I know the chemical charge shouldn't even figure in to the overall acceleration of the round. I agree about the chem guns as well at least that is what I had always learned in various science classes. So then here is one for you. Why do the real German gyrojet pistols have no to little recoil? Never mind as I recall it was because the rocket bullets, like all other rockets, have a constant acceleration but they start out slow. So on exit from the gun there is little recoil because the round is traveling so slow at a couple feet away the bullet won't fatally wound.

BTW I think the BG is a railgun while all the rest are coil. It would explain the longer range and greater damage of the boomgun as railguns transfer energy more efficiently than coilguns do.

didn't intend to make it sound like i was talking down to you. i've just found from other discussions that if i don't clarify, third parties skimming through will miss my initial postings, and start up arguements over things already covered, which not only derails threads but gets rather repetive. sorry if it came across badly.

Lord_Dalgard wrote:Chello!


This:

Natasha wrote: I can see it being a half-trigger squeeze to deploy the pylons and then complete the squeeze to fire the gun and have the jets go to work.

I see it as a "two-stage" trigger like on an over or under or a double-barreled shotgun. The first click sets the pylons, the second click fires the weapon. You can, of course, pull through both settings at once. That said, I still feel like the pylons are better handled as a redunantcy measure. that is, they only deploy if the jets are malfunctioning or disabled.

Hmm... I've always seen it as a single squeeze activating the timing circuit for three devices. It would be a little difficult to do a two stage trigger from the inside of a power armor. After all I don't think that a Glitter Boy can pick pockets so how is it going to feel a little click in a gun? If it is built into the hand why don't you feel it when your closing your fist? I think it is pull trigger, deploy pylons, strike primer to load sabot armature into rails, ignite thrusters, accelerate round, round leaves muzzle/disengage thrusters (wash, rinse, repeat), move foot, that pylon disengages (allows for easier retargeting while not making all of the ground unstable). So if the GB starts walking one foot moves and the pylon disengages and then the other foot moves and the other pylon disengages. In this way none of it is dependant on what the pilot can feel or rather can not feel on the outside of the GB.

That works, too.

glitterboy2098 wrote:didn't intend to make it sound like i was talking down to you. i've just found from other discussions that if i don't clarify, third parties skimming through will miss my initial postings, and start up arguements over things already covered, which not only derails threads but gets rather repetive. sorry if it came across badly.

You know... that is true, I'm guilty enough of doing it the other way by responding to the first post and not noticing their comments until it is too late. So do you know how much force is exerted by a sonic boom? I know it can break glass and rattles buildings but the mythbusters showed that it only occasionally breaks glass (I'm wondering if it was because the glass wasn't installed on a semi-sealed box, like in a building, so the glass couldn't flex... as much.) Its funny... I wonder how many people on the forums think that for each Mach number there is a seperate sonic boom? As I recall though a sonic boom is a sonic boom is a sonic boom and reguardless of the speed of a given item (over mach) the boom is no louder. Otherwise I'd hate to hear the Space Shuttle on re-entry (Mach 25).

Lord_Dalgard wrote:That works, too.

Yeah, but so do so many other ways that people can come up with. Heck even your two stage would work if the pilot could feel it and I guess actually having it built into the hands instead of the trigger wouldn't be too anoying for the pilot who would eventually think of it as normal.

sHaka wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Natasha wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

sHaka wrote:- The pylons are deployed before the cannon is fired

This makes most sense to me and allows the pilot to disengage them if he wants to shoot without them. GB Pilots can fire without the pylons, but they do so wild and a greater recoil penalty for each subsequent shot - not teaching folk how to suck eggs, but this does seem to get forgotten in some of these debates.

- The Pylons are necessary because of the force created by the sonic boom
This is as much real world physics as I need - anything more complex is probably getting in the way of the story.

unfortunately, thats not correct. the force being countered isn't from the shockwave, but the recoil from the round being accellerated up to speed. the shockwave is just air displacement from the round passing through. it's a side effect of the projectiles flight, not connected to the recoil.

There is a degree of recoil from the projectile leaving the barrel, but, yes, what gets that started is acceleration of the projectile.

isn't this what i just said? the recoil comes from the accelleration of the projectile, as a result of second law of motion.

I think you missed my broader point which was - what does it matter?

One end makes a big bang and something dangerous come out of it, the other end needs to do something to keep it upright.

Newton can take a jump, I'm GM after all.

What's the point... well if it is the boom that throws the GB back then the pylons and thrusters aren't needed in space... because there is no boom. In space no one can hear you boom

Stormchild wrote:Pylons fire as the trigger is pulled. (before acceleration)

The pylons don't matter, they are a cool trinket to sell more units...

I honestly think that, as drawn, they would do nothing more than make sure the GB fell on it's @$$ if the jets ever misfired...

I figured that the sonic boom meant that the round broke the sound barrier either before it left the barrel, or AS it left the barrel. IF it was before it left the barrel, then there might be a possibility that it could be going faster than mach 1 (~765mph), but that would cause all kinds of problems on it's own. IF it reached the speed of sound AS it left the barrel, then the force created would not be sufficient to require anchors on such a large mech, since it already has mass and thrusters to compensate.

Just as if there were no pylons the GB would flip since the thrusters are more centrally positioned.

Why would it cause problems in the barrel? Firearms reach supersonic speeds prior to leaving the barrel. Seeing as how the round in the barrel can't complete a sonic shockwave around it there would be no boom, just like a firearm. I believe that the bang from a revolver near the cylinder/barrel junction is from the explosion not the sonic shockwave.

Zer0 Kay wrote: So do you know how much force is exerted by a sonic boom?
I know it can break glass and rattles buildings but the mythbusters showed that it only occasionally breaks glass (I'm wondering if it was because the glass wasn't installed on a semi-sealed box, like in a building, so the glass couldn't flex... as much.)

i think the force varies depending on projectile speed and the density of the fluid medium the pressure wave is passing through.

Its funny... I wonder how many people on the forums think that for each Mach number there is a seperate sonic boom? As I recall though a sonic boom is a sonic boom is a sonic boom and reguardless of the speed of a given item (over mach) the boom is no louder. Otherwise I'd hate to hear the Space Shuttle on re-entry (Mach 25).

pretty much. the volume depends on the distance from the pressurewave's center point. the faster the velocity of the projectile, the farther the "boom" can be heard, usually. the SR-71 could shatter windows and topple things over miles away when at full speed.

personally i wonder how many people realize the "sonic boom" is a continuous effect heard by everyone the projectile passes by, and not a transitory effect caused by the projectile passing the speed of sound?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Lord_Dalgard wrote:That works, too.

Yeah, but so do so many other ways that people can come up with. Heck even your two stage would work if the pilot could feel it and I guess actually having it built into the hands instead of the trigger wouldn't be too anoying for the pilot who would eventually think of it as normal.

I always assumed the pilot has his own trigger to pull or perhaps button to push. And that is assuming of course he isn't using voice commands.

Natasha wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Lord_Dalgard wrote:That works, too.

Yeah, but so do so many other ways that people can come up with. Heck even your two stage would work if the pilot could feel it and I guess actually having it built into the hands instead of the trigger wouldn't be too anoying for the pilot who would eventually think of it as normal.

I always assumed the pilot has his own trigger to pull or perhaps button to push. And that is assuming of course he isn't using voice commands.

personally i like the two stage trigger, with force feedback in the hands and a visual indicator on the HUD as indicators. releasing the pylons would be done either by releasing the trigger (lets up both), or automatically if the pilot moves to lift a leg (let up that leg's pylon, resetting it when put back down) though voice commands would certainly be an emergency option..i'd also imagine you could have an eye tracker system with interactive menu on the HUD..

after all ,the GB is a powered suit, the pilot wears it and it mimicks the pilots actions by reading them with pressure sensors.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Natasha wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Lord_Dalgard wrote:That works, too.

Yeah, but so do so many other ways that people can come up with. Heck even your two stage would work if the pilot could feel it and I guess actually having it built into the hands instead of the trigger wouldn't be too anoying for the pilot who would eventually think of it as normal.

I always assumed the pilot has his own trigger to pull or perhaps button to push. And that is assuming of course he isn't using voice commands.

personally i like the two stage trigger, with force feedback in the hands and a visual indicator on the HUD as indicators. releasing the pylons would be done either by releasing the trigger (lets up both), or automatically if the pilot moves to lift a leg (let up that leg's pylon, resetting it when put back down) though voice commands would certainly be an emergency option..i'd also imagine you could have an eye tracker system with interactive menu on the HUD..

after all ,the GB is a powered suit, the pilot wears it and it mimicks the pilots actions by reading them with pressure sensors.

So many redundancies... no more like alternates. You do realise that if the foot disengage isnt working then a menu, verbal or trigger release isn't going to work because the legs are likely damaged? Pressure sensors doesn't mean that the pilot can feel the pressure. It just means that the suit applies a given amount of force based on how much pressure the pilot applies. The x,o,Δ,□ on a PS are pressure sensitive but you can't feel the pressure. The force feedback is... well it just makes something else to break down and would be unlikely in a military vehicle. Maybe someone that likes technical gadgets would modify their GB to do that but the standard military unit wouldn't have it or the dispersed methods to retract/deploy the pylons. Instead they'd go with three lines taking three routes from the actuator in the feet to the pylons via the fire control system. Tripple redundancy not tripple method... to confusing for pilots.