Any idea for New Ship weapons?

[gaby]

What ideas for ship,s weapons you have come up with?

[azazel1024]

Yup.

New Naruni plasma shell guns. Think plasma cartridge guns on a giant scale.

They are similar to old wet navy cannons in that they take a physical shell and fire the resulting plasma charge down a big heavy barrel.

They come in a bunch of different sizes.

3", 5", 6", 8", 12", 14" and 16" varieties.

Stats are respective of each gun 3"/5"/6"/8"/12"/14"/16"

Weight: 4t/15t/30t/65t/100t/120t/175t
Rate of Fire: number of hand to hand attacks/4/3/2/1/1/every other melee
Range: 4 miles/7 miles/10 miles/14 miles/18 miles/25 miles/35 miles
Damage: 2d4x10/3d6x10/1d4x100/2d4x100/4d6x100/1d4x1,000/2d4x1,000
Payload: (depends on the mounting, but typically) 300/250/200/150/120/100/80rnds
Cost: 1.5 million/4 million/8 million/15 million/25 million/40 million/65 million credits

3" guns are light enough to have no penalties against even small targets and actually mount sophisticated targetting systems (designed as anti-starfighter/power armor weapons) that give them +2 to strike against all targets, 5" guns suffer -2 to hit starfighters and smaller, 6" -3, 8" and above are considered large weapons when it comes to hitting small targets.

Naruni is designing some complimentary warships to go along with these weapons.

A quick and dirty patrol boat mounts a couple of plasma cartridge machine guns, a couple of laser point defense guns, a 3" plasma gun and few medium range missiles, around 2,000MDC

Corvette mounts two 5" guns, one fore one aft, a 3" gun centerline, (4) plasma cartridge machine guns, a few laser point defense guns, a couple of medium range missile launchers and a couple of mini missile launchers, 3,200MDC.

I haven't stated out any of the heavier ships.
-Matt

PS yes I am semi-intentionally designing the ships and weapons as WWII wet navy style stuff.

[azazel1024]

Also an additional weapon being developed by the CCW in secrete.

An Ion disrupter cannon. It works on similar principals to a regular ion cannon, but instead of focusing on damaging a ship, the ion disrupter cannon accelerates a stream of electrons instead of actual ions. This accelerated electron beam then ionizes the target (hence the name still of an ion cannon), disrupting its electronic systems (hence the disrupter).

It can damage organics and shields/force fields, but not other solid substances.

Currently only available as heavy installations.

Weight: 5t/12t
Rate of fire: 2/1
Range: 5 miles/8 miles
Damage: 1d4x10SDC/MD against organic targets or force fields, a direct hit on the hull of a target has a 01-47% chance of knocking out any one system (a weapon, engines, sensors, communications, FTL, shields, life support, main power, auxillary power) for 2d4 melee rounds and a 01-12% of permenantly shutting the system down until it can be repaired.

2d4x10SDC/MD against organic targets or force fields for the heavier cannon. A direct hit has a 01-63% chance of temporarily knocking out a system for 3d4 melee rounds and a 01-15% chance of permenantly knocking the system out until it can be repaired
Payload: Unlimited
Cost: Currently in the prototype stage (NOT available)

[DhAkael]

I use the 'D20: Future' book for a few ideas. the damages are kinda -meh- and the ranges given make no sense (it's D20, yo!) but for concepts they are nifty.
Due to legal problems I can't post what / how I use 'em here, but I've done a couple homebrews that make use of that resource.

REALLY nasty suprise for the PC's or the NPC's, depending on who has the new shiney on their ship.

[taalismn]

I developed a relativistic projectile cannon firing devalued Beanie-Babies...does that count?

[rat_bastard]

I have my flak missiles, and I am working on Sensor Ghost missile that is not so much a weapon as a target for enemy weapon systems. Also a Nanotech corrosive that travels too slowly to be identified by most shields. I also have some custom rules for angling your shields against specific threats (so you can say harden your shields against impacts and take half damage from rail guns and explosive missiles but take double damage from other sources like plasma cannons).

[taalismn]

Starship weapon-range psionic amplifiers anybody?

[KLM]

Hi there!

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=80385&hilit=golgan+battlenet&start=0

There are several calibers of naval plasma cartridge canons, plus a dual-mode "ion beamer/plasma torpedo".

As for psionic amplifiers:
Oh yeah... A psilite helm is a "factory standard" in CAF warships (frigate and up), sporting extended
(ie. spaceworthy-range) psionic senses (Presence Sense: there is a cloaked ship in the sector, captain!)
and of course the good old Telemechanics.

The fun begins when one can telemechanically control the TARGET ship. (Most warships are protected
against this, see details DMB2 page 79.

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

Hi there!

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=80385&hilit=golgan+battlenet&start=0

There are several calibers of naval plasma cartridge canons, plus a dual-mode "ion beamer/plasma torpedo".


Adios
KLM

Seems to me in the old E.E. 'Doc' Smith 'Lensmen' space operas, the heavy energy weapons used massive cartridge/batteries as well("Doc' was obviously basing his guns on the heavy naval cannons of the time, at least with regards to the visceral imagery of the giant power units being slammed home, fired, and replaced).

[taalismn]

Hi there!



As for psionic amplifiers:
Oh yeah... A psilite helm is a "factory standard" in CAF warships (frigate and up), sporting extended
(ie. spaceworthy-range) psionic senses (Presence Sense: there is a cloaked ship in the sector, captain!)
and of course the good old Telemechanics.

The fun begins when one can telemechanically control the TARGET ship. (Most warships are protected
against this, see details DMB2 page 79.

Adios
KLM

I was thinking psylite-lined sensory deprivation tank with the floating/encapsulated psychic channeling their entire attention through their powers.

[Tearstone]

I don't have the latest books, but there is one that I have done that is particularly nasty. I threw a ship against the PCs' vessel that had one of these as its main gun tacked on (it was a cobbled together pirate ship, the gun is meant as a "broadside" weapon).

It is called the flash-gun or flash-cannon. The basic concept is that the weapon opens up a spacial rift at its muzzle and fires through it. The exit rift is between the enemy ship's shields and hull. A powerful weapon, but there are some limitations;

1) It requires both a PPE battery and conventional power source.
2) Requires an advanced targeting computer to calculate the space between the shields and hull.
3) The weapon is line-of sight. Targeting restrictions prevent this from simply opening a rift next to the main reactor and letting rip.

4) The intense targeting calculations needed restrict this weapon to firing once per melee round.
5) Rift generation is fairly short range, five perhaps ten km at most.

Please note that Rift Generation can be done by other means than just magical, or requiring PPE. There are technological equivalent equipment, therefore a PPE system does not have to be used.

If you're going to use such a system why dont you just Rift out part of the enemy's hull and leave sections of the ship breathing hard vacuum?

I would say that the energy requirements as well as the calculation needs would reduce RoF to 1x/minute. I mean, if you did it with a thermonuclear warhead or anti-matter warhead every 15 seconds, you could shred starships with impunity.

Also, most ships have the sensor package to be able to locate vital systems such as reactors, weapons, shields, and even command structures, so while you might not be able to get directly to it, you would essentially have a free-fire on those structures if you so wished. In that case, you might consider it a called shot.

Also, what's to prevent you from putting a boarding party against the hull of an enemy ship, instead of using weapon's fire? Plopping down a set of Robot Pilots and essentially space marines on a ship to go marauding about either on the outside, or cutting their way in could be a tactical nightmare.

[GT]

Well for PPE energy power sources a bank of PPE clips hooked up to a PPE generator could vastly improve the amount of stored PPE on ships or give ships with small PPE generators more storage capacity. And if some techno Smithy developed a Convert ISP to PPE so ISP clip banks could be used as a back up power source. This would especially be handy when in an anti magic cloud just ends and you need a massive PPE boost to reboot your Mystical Power systems, with a Noro helmet type interface, it would be a 1 ISP for 1 PPE exchange after the 4 ISP interchange.

All this could power magical weapon systems on ships or TW weaponized space spells. Once ya got the power, just figure out what can be done with it! Like TK force cannons on a large scale.

[keir451]

Gravitic Lasers (GRASERS) and a mass driver that fires a 5 ton nickel iron slug at mach 50, or .05% of light, has a 10 round payload an inflicts 2d6x100, Grasers inflict 1d4x100, range for the mass driver is 1 AU, grasers are 1,000 mi.

[Jorel]

Gravitic Lasers (GRASERS) and a mass driver that fires a 5 ton nickel iron slug at mach 50, or .05% of light, has a 10 round payload an inflicts 2d6x100, Grasers inflict 1d4x100, range for the mass driver is 1 AU, grasers are 1,000 mi.

Very interesting.

[KLM]

Hi there!

As for psionic amplifiers:
Oh yeah... A psilite helm is a "factory standard" in CAF warships (frigate and up), sporting extended
(ie. spaceworthy-range) psionic senses (Presence Sense: there is a cloaked ship in the sector, captain!)
and of course the good old Telemechanics.

The fun begins when one can telemechanically control the TARGET ship. (Most warships are protected
against this, see details DMB2 page 79.

Adios
KLM

I was thinking psylite-lined sensory deprivation tank with the floating/encapsulated psychic channeling their entire attention through their powers.

Kinda. I used the term "helm" as "a ship's steering mechanism", not the protective headware.

So for the spec effects team, it could be
-a helmet,
-a crystal globe to rest a hand on
- the aforementioned sensory deprivation tank (doubling as an escape capsule) - thought floating is done via CG/telekinesis
- an amchair (or throne for the flamboyant), etc.

Sploogie variants might appear something like a shelf full of mescal - but the worms in the bottles were
zembakhs... With an occasional Eye of Eylor. And if it is a sensory deprivation tank, it is filled with slime.

Gravitic Lasers (GRASERS) and a mass driver that fires a 5 ton nickel iron slug at mach 50, or .05% of light, has a 10 round payload an inflicts 2d6x100, Grasers inflict 1d4x100, range for the mass driver is 1 AU, grasers are 1,000 mi.

Graser is actually means gamma ray "laser" - which is also something what has a good and a bad end .

But how that gravitic laser supposed to work?

As for the mass driver I advise not to use existing materials - so instead of a NiFe projectile use at least
"molecular stabilised nickel" or something.

Adios
KLM

[keir451]

Hi there!

As for psionic amplifiers:
Oh yeah... A psilite helm is a "factory standard" in CAF warships (frigate and up), sporting extended
(ie. spaceworthy-range) psionic senses (Presence Sense: there is a cloaked ship in the sector, captain!)
and of course the good old Telemechanics.

The fun begins when one can telemechanically control the TARGET ship. (Most warships are protected
against this, see details DMB2 page 79.

Adios
KLM

I was thinking psylite-lined sensory deprivation tank with the floating/encapsulated psychic channeling their entire attention through their powers.

Kinda. I used the term "helm" as "a ship's steering mechanism", not the protective headware.

So for the spec effects team, it could be
-a helmet,
-a crystal globe to rest a hand on
- the aforementioned sensory deprivation tank (doubling as an escape capsule) - thought floating is done via CG/telekinesis
- an amchair (or throne for the flamboyant), etc.

Sploogie variants might appear something like a shelf full of mescal - but the worms in the bottles were
zembakhs... With an occasional Eye of Eylor. And if it is a sensory deprivation tank, it is filled with slime.

Gravitic Lasers (GRASERS) and a mass driver that fires a 5 ton nickel iron slug at mach 50, or .05% of light, has a 10 round payload an inflicts 2d6x100, Grasers inflict 1d4x100, range for the mass driver is 1 AU, grasers are 1,000 mi.

Graser is actually means gamma ray "laser" - which is also something what has a good and a bad end .

But how that gravitic laser supposed to work?

As for the mass driver I advise not to use existing materials - so instead of a NiFe projectile use at least
"molecular stabilised nickel" or something.

Adios
KLM

In the graser I use, the light particles are gravitically contained so you can bend the beam, like we see in some anime where the beam arcs 90 degrees after being fired.
How about a Chromium round instead? Fire a Glitterboy at those speeds. Of course those are my Palladium Games specs, in MY games the mass driver fires the round at .999% of light and can inflivt nearly as much damage to a smaller area as the SDF-1 main cannon does to a larger area of a planet.

[KLM]

Hi there!

In the graser I use, the light particles are gravitically contained so you can bend the beam, like we see in some anime where the beam arcs 90 degrees after being fired.

A bit too "wondertech" to me, but could work...

How about a Chromium round instead? Fire a Glitterboy at those speeds.

Ah... Nickel is fine too, but a nickel-iron slug in itself isn't "MDC enough" to say so. Nor chromium,
for that matter.

However even the GB is not made of "plain vanilla" chromium - the RMB states something like
"super dense, constructed on molecular level"... Which indicates that while it is made of "mundane"
materials, it still is more resilient that we will ever see In Real Life.

Same for NiFe slugs.

Just my two cents.

Adios
KLM

[keir451]

Hi there!

In the graser I use, the light particles are gravitically contained so you can bend the beam, like we see in some anime where the beam arcs 90 degrees after being fired.

A bit too "wondertech" to me, but could work...

How about a Chromium round instead? Fire a Glitterboy at those speeds.

Ah... Nickel is fine too, but a nickel-iron slug in itself isn't "MDC enough" to say so. Nor chromium,
for that matter.

However even the GB is not made of "plain vanilla" chromium - the RMB states something like
"super dense, constructed on molecular level"... Which indicates that while it is made of "mundane"
materials, it still is more resilient that we will ever see In Real Life.

Same for NiFe slugs.

Just my two cents.

Adios
KLM

Hey, No problem. It was the very comment of "molecular bonded" that made me think of using a GB/Chromium armor as the round, I can see it now...Starship engaged in combat runs out of NiFe slugs and decide to use "outdated" GB suits as ammo.
I can completely understand things being too wondertech, but in theory if you have enough gravitational control you could do it. You'd need the gravitational equivalent of a black hole, but it could be done.

[azazel1024]

The only issue I see on that mass driver is the recoil. It'd push a 1 million ton battleship backwards at a few hundred G's for a split second. I'd hate to be the crew on that thing when it fired. Or the ship 3 miles to starboard when it skips sideways in to my ship.

Of course physics has no place in these games , so you're good.
-Matt

[Veritas476]

I came up with a Laser/Particle Beam hybrid called the Particle-Laser (of all things).

[azazel1024]

I propose one.

Its called the vodoo cannon. Once you hit a ship with it, any damage your ship takes is inflicted upon the other ship and vice versa.

Works through quantum entanglement.



I am joking of course.
-Matt

[Veritas476]

I propose one.

Its called the vodoo cannon. Once you hit a ship with it, any damage your ship takes is inflicted upon the other ship and vice versa.

Works through quantum entanglement.



I am joking of course.
-Matt

Is it bad that I'm trying to figure out how to make that work?

[taalismn]

I propose one.

Its called the vodoo cannon. Once you hit a ship with it, any damage your ship takes is inflicted upon the other ship and vice versa.

Works through quantum entanglement.



I am joking of course.
-Matt

Is it bad that I'm trying to figure out how to make that work?

No...because I saw it and immediately began thinking of my superpower 'Reciprocity', and how to apply it(and other super powers) as starship weapons(discarding all pretense of relaism in the process, of course).

[KLM]

Hi there!

I can completely understand things being too wondertech, but in theory if you have enough gravitational control you could do it. You'd need the gravitational equivalent of a black hole, but it could be done.

Right. Thought with that technology I would simply send gravitons/gravitonic waves at the target and
let them rip it apart - no need for involving photons. IMO.

However - unless they are in the "Fleets" book - there are no tractor beams in the 3 Galaxies -> no
gravity projection cannons.

--------
Mass drivers and recoil: well, CG rail guns appearantly negate recoil - that is why one can fire a Jackhammer
from DMB2 with "puny human hands".

Adios
KLM

[azazel1024]

A mass driver isn't a CG gun though. A CG gun utilizes micro CG drives on each bullet to accelerate it. A mass driver utilizes magentic and gravity manipulation to drive a projectile.

Its like the difference between a chemical projectile gun and a rocket gun.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

I propose one.

Its called the vodoo cannon. Once you hit a ship with it, any damage your ship takes is inflicted upon the other ship and vice versa.

Works through quantum entanglement.



I am joking of course.
-Matt

Is it bad that I'm trying to figure out how to make that work?

No, because I said it in jest and then went "I wonder how you'd create such a gun using TW"



Better yet instead of linking your ship and the enemy ship, make it a real vodoo cannon. Link the enemy ship with the model you've created on your rapid prototyping machine. Then do things like snap off a nacel from the model and watch the nacel on the actual star ship tear off and go flying through space. Shake the model and watch the enemy start ship flop around.
-Matt
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Yeah rifting out hull platting wouldn't do a lot. Starships like wet navy ships and subs are built compartimentalized. I'd also imagine that all crew would be suited up in at least emergency space suits during combat. So at most you might kill a couple of crew members who didn't have their helmets on or couldn't get their visors down in time if open. That or knock a few people out of the ship when their compartment depressurizes. You are not going to depressurize the whole ship.

An energy beam or projectile would decompress large sections of the ship as it blasted through compartment after compartment. You'd also be causing overpressure potentially blowing out sorrounding compartments, not just ones directly holed. Lastly as the energy/projectile bored through the ship it would send fragments and splinters from blasting through/itelf sleeting through sorrounding compartments possibly.

It would be a bit like the difference between removing a small section of skin from a person or shooting them. Which one sounds like it is going to do a lot more damage?
-Matt

[Jorel]

Yeah rifting out hull platting wouldn't do a lot. Starships like wet navy ships and subs are built compartimentalized. I'd also imagine that all crew would be suited up in at least emergency space suits during combat. So at most you might kill a couple of crew members who didn't have their helmets on or couldn't get their visors down in time if open. That or knock a few people out of the ship when their compartment depressurizes. You are not going to depressurize the whole ship.

An energy beam or projectile would decompress large sections of the ship as it blasted through compartment after compartment. You'd also be causing overpressure potentially blowing out sorrounding compartments, not just ones directly holed. Lastly as the energy/projectile bored through the ship it would send fragments and splinters from blasting through/itelf sleeting through sorrounding compartments possibly.

It would be a bit like the difference between removing a small section of skin from a person or shooting them. Which one sounds like it is going to do a lot more damage?
-Matt

Nice descriptions.

[keir451]

The only issue I see on that mass driver is the recoil. It'd push a 1 million ton battleship backwards at a few hundred G's for a split second. I'd hate to be the crew on that thing when it fired. Or the ship 3 miles to starboard when it skips sideways in to my ship.

Of course physics has no place in these games , so you're good.
-Matt

The bold is the problem, a ship carrying a mass driver as a spinal mount weapon would probably weigh more than 1 million tons.
I got an old gmae that describes such a vessel, and I thinkthe ship weighed more than 1 million tons (have to look it up later, 'cause I can't remember it's stats ).

[Tearstone]

The weapon system didn't seem particularly thought out to me.

As for the suggestion of targeting vital systems, than can be done by line of sight and simple vector math, which can easily be handled by a crewer or AI, using either Advanced Mathematics, OR astrophysics, or Navigation: Space.

You find the ship on sensors, scan it down for its systems, locate those against the ship itself. Calculate the speed and course of the vessel (and lets face it, its not like anything bigger than a corvette can stop, sprint, or turn on a dime), and target the probable location of where the ship is going to be with the opposite end of the Rift, and fire through. It's not that much different than using a ballistic weapon.

As for missiles, you -can- make missles that pull a 100+ G accelleration. While it's not as fast as say a particle beam, it can get to the target almost as quickly. You can get the timing down so that the missle is almost at the event horizon of the missile when the Rift opens, pops through, and Rift closes. With computer aided rifting systems, it can be done almost as fast as a laser or particle weapon, so you might take a little more power to fire, but you can get a much more effective bang for the buck.

I see some other people here have been thinking as I have about gravity-based lasers. Now, I'll have to say if you want to use gravity to bend light, you would have to use a gravity well on the order of a black hole. If you can generate this, why don't you just create a black hole singularity instead.

As for tractor beams, the Manhunter universe is lower in technology, and they do have tractor beams and even matter-energy conversion systems (transporters/teleporters) able to be worked into their vessels. I would say that in the 3G's this technology exists and is readily available.

Perhaps even in such places as the UWW, they use mini-Rifts instead of transporters for moving things ship-to-ship easily.

Back to gravitic lasers/weapons.

I've been thinking of a system that creates a pole/beam/column of gravitons. While the weapon system doesn't create much thermal variance, it can cause gravity shear along the beam, which may punch neat little holes through things, or cause catastrophic collapses/failures of materials as a pole of extreme gravity is shoved right through the ship.

However, a contra-gravity system, and even the artificial gravity and intertial dampeners/compensators on a starship could possibly counteract these weapons, though they might take a heavy power drain to do so.

Such a device could, in theory, be used to fool a ships systems into thinking they're in a gravity well, and would not be able to run up to super-luminal velocity, so effectively you could interdict an enemy ship and keep them in place while hammering on them.

I dunno, its just a theory for now. I haven't even come up with any stats yet.

[DhAkael]

To KLM; oh there ARE gravitic pont-singularity projectors and gravitic wave ressonace cannons in my campaign
I know they ain't canon...but seriously, the authors of the PW books (no offense meant) have been thinking FAR too small / retro-tech.
Admittedly; said technologies are VERY rare and restricted; so of course the PC's somehow managed to get a few of these toys

[KLM]

Hi there!

To KLM; oh there ARE gravitic pont-singularity projectors and gravitic wave ressonace cannons in my campaign

Be my guest - no problem.

Just try to think ahead of the characters, when they begin to combine technological achievements...

---------
As for too small/retrotech: yepp. Starship weapon - aside from being laughable in range, but at least
the ships are slower than Gagarin's pod , so both need to be multiplied by 10 or more - arrays are...

...strange. Kinda fitting an AEGIS system, but without the VLS launchers onto a pre-dreadnought.
Plus a squadron of VTOL F-35 fighters... Bizarre.

There are only a few ships which have a good weapon layout.

Adios
KLM

[azazel1024]

The force-feedback weapons sound both way too powerful and also a little science broken. There really isn't any basis in it.

Of course there isn't really in force fields as such either, but it doesn't seem to jive with me even on a quasi science level. I'd want at least a good quasi science explination of how some kind of harmonic 'linking' can occur and why it would cause damage to the ship itself or release radation. It seems to me if you could/did do anything of the sort you might at most shut the shields/force fields down or overload the generators or something (or similar to thow the shield penetrating disrupter of the silverhawk works open a hole in the shields).
-Matt

[KLM]

The force-feedback weapons sound both way too powerful and also a little science broken. There really isn't any basis in it.

Of course there isn't really in force fields as such either, but it doesn't seem to jive with me even on a quasi science level. I'd want at least a good quasi science explination of how some kind of harmonic 'linking' can occur and why it would cause damage to the ship itself or release radation. It seems to me if you could/did do anything of the sort you might at most shut the shields/force fields down or overload the generators or something (or similar to thow the shield penetrating disrupter of the silverhawk works open a hole in the shields).
-Matt

As a side note, if one takes the Silverhawk and the phase weapons as benchmarks, this device is
just too powerful.

Just my two cents.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Hi there!

I try to come up with fun ideas and people nit-pick them over "science".

It's a ****ing game people, not a physics thesis.

Besides, the force-feedback system was meant to be used by villains, or did all of you miss me beating you over the head that the weapon has been banned and is highly illegal?

1, Science IS fun and so is history
2, If it is a game, then think about a bit of the "four lettered" game balance
3, Piracy in itself means death sentence - so, if they cannot execute me twice, I will use
illegal weapons (if it makes me a more effective armed beggar).
4, Banned weapon - then its principles are known. What safety measures can be installed
into the shield system, why they aren't in my ship, what radiation it is that kills the crew, yet
does not turn any bounty into a pile of radioactive waste?

Adios
KLM

[azazel1024]

Hi there!

I try to come up with fun ideas and people nit-pick them over "science".

It's a ****ing game people, not a physics thesis.

Besides, the force-feedback system was meant to be used by villains, or did all of you miss me beating you over the head that the weapon has been banned and is highly illegal?

1, Science IS fun and so is history
2, If it is a game, then think about a bit of the "four lettered" game balance
3, Piracy in itself means death sentence - so, if they cannot execute me twice, I will use
illegal weapons (if it makes me a more effective armed beggar).
4, Banned weapon - then its principles are known. What safety measures can be installed
into the shield system, why they aren't in my ship, what radiation it is that kills the crew, yet
does not turn any bounty into a pile of radioactive waste?

Adios
KLM

Pretty much all those points.

An illegal weapon is going to be used widely by anyone who already faces a death sentence (pirates). A banned weapon is going to be used by whatever side wants to win as soon as the gloves come off. It only stays banned as long as enough people can agree that it is morally reprehensible enough that it should be illegal. In war that quickly goes out the window. The TGE, UWW, CCW, etc may all agree it is illegal, but as soon war really starts no one is going to care about those covenants.

If it smacks of not even being quasi science it just doesn't fit in my mind. It doesn't have to be a great explination, but if it just hits a mental disconnect...My biggest hang-up is it generating some kind of radation that hurts the crew because of some wierd kind of harmonics. Just doesn't seem to make any kind of sense.

Game balance.

Its not a horrible idea, few ideas are, but it needs some tweaking or redirecting a little. A shield disrupter would make a lot more sense.

Anything that effects game balance a lot should have a good explination why it isn't common. Being banned just isn't a great explination, especially in the case of something that is so incredibly devastating. You think that'll stop demon forces from incorporating it? Or Devil forces? Or some other nefarious group?

A good explination is that it drains so much power from the ship to use that it temporarily shuts down all but critical systems for a melee round shutting down shields, engines, etc. Only weapons with on-mount power systems can still operate for that melee round and the weapon takes 2 minutes to recharge.

Great weapon, but kind of limiting, especially in any kind of fleet engagement that is going to leave the ship naked and vulnerable for 15 seconds. Now pirates might utilize it some maybe.
-Matt

PS considering a phase weapons function and the general barbarity of war I can't see anyone not using this weapon. Maybe making it illegal for common use, but the military is certainly going to use it.

[glitterboy2098]

meh, your right, it does kinda break suspension of disbeleif as a science based idea....so just use magic spells via the UWW's technowizard devices.


myself, i'd love to see a "point defense array" that uses small explosive shells to destroy incoming missiles, railgun rounds, and plasma bolts. kinda like the interceptor grid in babylon 5...

[KLM]

Hi there!

meh, your right, it does kinda break suspension of disbeleif as a science based idea....so just use magic spells via the UWW's technowizard devices.

Yepp. TW or Psilite stuff can do it - well, almost..

myself, i'd love to see a "point defense array" that uses small explosive shells to destroy incoming missiles, railgun rounds, and plasma bolts. kinda like the interceptor grid in babylon 5...

No problem - just cram a multi-multi-multiwarhead into an LRM body
-> 8 MRM "bombs"
-> 64 SRM "bombs"
-> 256 mini missiles (I would not use reduced range bombs in this stage,
so submunitions could separate in time).
This could blanket a rather large area with fragments and/plasma, forming
a temporary screen.

Adios
KLM

[azazel1024]

You know, I had a nice little response, but I came back and edited it because thinking back on it, the statements were a little inflammatory. However, I will leave you with this:

The force-feedback weapons sound both way too powerful and also a little science broken. There really isn't any basis in it.

If it smacks of not even being quasi science it just doesn't fit in my mind. It doesn't have to be a great explination, but if it just hits a mental disconnect...My biggest hang-up is it generating some kind of radation that hurts the crew because of some wierd kind of harmonics. Just doesn't seem to make any kind of sense.

If you can't figure out the irony of these statements, then...well, that's your problem.

I understand the irony perfectly. However as Glitterboy said a post below your's, it just breaks the suspension of disbelief.

Take a moment and say that there is no magic or psionics or anything like that in our future (I assume there isn't). Now maybe 2 centuries from now picture a person flying around with some kind of antigravity jet pack. That seems super futuristic and cool, but it seems plausible. Now picture that same person flying around without any kind of jetpack, rocket boots or anything else. Just flying around.

It kind of breaks the suspension of disbelief. I've suspended it in the case of the jet pack, because hey it seems like maybe something they could have invented in 2 centuries. A person flying unaided (remember no magic or psionics) just seems far fetched.

Same deal here.

Really though it comes down to a game destabalizing weapon without a decent explination of why every military doesn't use it a lot. Rare technology, expensive, uses some kind of ultra rare crystal or mineral, super high power consumption, massive, negative effect on the ship firing it, etc are all good reasons why it is rare. Illegal because it is horrific isn't a good one. Phase weapons function in a similar manner (completly ignoring anything solid and killing squishy people inside starships), yet they aren't banned in the least.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Yes, but your point of why this tech was illegal is because it was so horrific because it baked people in radiation within their ship, not because it was so powerful. Phase weapons 'bake' people within their ship, the only difference is the shields have to be knocked out first.

As for suspension of disbelief here we go if you want some science.

Energy doesn't have harmonic frequencies. The closest thing 'energy', in this case EM waves have to a harmoic frequency is hertrodyning. Basically when you add two different frequencies together you get the sum of the frequencies and the difference output as a result. So if you add a 150mhz and a 175mhz frequency together they will hetrodyne and result in a 25mhz frequency and a 325mhz frequency emmitted. Shields are basically described as energy fields.

Electrical currents, even alternating currents, aren't going to develop any kind of harmonics, so a shield generator wouldn't harmonize with the sheilds themselves in some kind of harmonic destabalizing event.

Shields are at no point described as anything other than energy fields.

At no point are either shields or shield generators described as being able to emmit any kind of radation, though I suppose maybe a shield generator could in some way since it is designed to emmit an energy field, if tinkered with.

Considering how 'smart' you can make computers, someone wouldn't immediately build a control system for the sheild generators that would damp out any kind of harmonics even if such a thing could occur? Or even shut them down? Crap I could design the software control system in a week or less if it was in a programming code I know. I doubt the monitoring hardware, shut-offs, etc wouldn't already be built in and could be adapted or if not take a matter of a couple of months to engineer. Or hey, why not just have frequency agile emmiters/generators for the shields. Shift the frequencies slightly every few seconds and it completely defeats it. Doesn't take more than a couple of Hz frequency shift and the harmonics would be completely different.

Next, how is the weapon supposed to generate these harmonics. Lets assume it is possible to generate some kind of harmonics, I'd assume that not all shields work on the exact same frequencies. Heck probably from one generator to the next they don't function at exactly the same frequencies. You have to be pretty darned precise to generate harmonics in a physical substance, assuming an energy field could have the same (which all known types of energy you can't), I'd assume you need to precisely apply some sort of interact tune to those specific harmonics. You could maybe tune your weapon based on sensor readings to eventually get it, but I doubt you could simply read the shield frequencies at a distance and fire your weapon and get it first time everytime, let alone the countermeasures possible.

So I wasn't trying to get personal, just listing some issues with the idea.

1) It goes against the quasi science presented in the books and against actual known science. So it is hard to keep a suspension of disbelief going (IE it appears to conflict with stated science/engineering as it works in the books)
2) Counter measures should be absurdly easy to work out (to get a little personal here). Almost anything that uses an attribute of a ship or ship system against itself, especially something that acts over a period of time should be pretty easy to overcome.
3) You still haven't said how my argument for why your claim of the weapon not being common is a bad one.


So yeah I am shooting holes in it. I semi-shot holes in the rifting pieces of a ships hull away isn't the best weapon. Could either of them maybe be used as weapons (with some suspension of disbelief on your shield harmonic radiation gun)? Sure, but they both have their downfalls, just more so with yours than the other one.

You can make a weapon out of just about anything, but it doesn't make everything a good weapon.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

As for suspension of disbelief here we go if you want some science...

Oh, please forgive me for not being as smart or as educated as you are. I don't have the benefit of a college education to add to my games. Is that any reason to insult me? It shouldn't be but yet you did. You have no problem with a universe that states that just because something is "magic" that it just happens, but you have a problem with a piece of technology doing something a little out of the ordinary. Maybe next time I will be sure to take a couple of college courses before I think to post in a gaming thread. Happy?

So sue me if I tried to come up with a concept for a weapon that defies the "laws" of physics (using a concept well-known in science fiction no less). How many other things defy the known laws of physics in sci-fi? FTL drives for one, which are about as far beyond quasi-science as the shield weapon I described, yet you have no problem with FTL. Besides, it was just an idea. I have no idea why you took personal offense to the concept.

Also, like I said before, you have not even tried to correct any issue with it, or offer an alternative idea. You just kept trying to poke holes, being destructively critical of the idea of the weapon. So here, I will make things easy for you.

It works by ****ing magic. Is that good enough now?

Anyway, I am done. This thread was supposed to be fun, but is just a waste of time now. Thanks.

Umm, have a complex?

I didn't insult you or at least that was not my attempt and I am sorry you took it that way.

I certainly didn't take personal offense to the idea, which you seemed to in my nit picking some things. Heck if you wanted to read some of what I said again, I was suggesting some ways to maybe make it better, at least an explination for why the weapon isn't common. Heck why it isn't common doesn't take much educational learning to realize wasn't a very good one originally and I made some suggestions for reasons why it could be rare. The biggest nit of all though, game balance. If in your game you want someone running around with something that is going to allow a squadron of frigates to take on an armada of dreadnaughts and clean the decks with them, by all means...

So if no one wants me to nit pick anything or suggest ways to make something better, than I'll shut-up and leave the thread. However, when some things seem to have serious issues on paper, mostly with game balance and reasoning, with physics or mechanics completly aside (let along all 4 of those together) its a little hard not to mention them.
-Matt

PS as you mention this is a gaming thread, which to me I thought meant discussion. Not simply a "Whoa is me" and "You dared to negatively comment on my idea!". However, I guess not really a 2 way conversation apparently.

[azazel1024]

Why not simply project a force field in front of the enemy ship? Kind of a long range shield emmiter throwing up an energy brick wall for the ship to run in to? Short lived and the enemy ship can 'punch' right through it, but enough to really throw people around on the ship and hurt the ship some.

Could be a great point defense weapon to block missiles.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

Umm, have a complex?

I didn't insult you or at least that was not my attempt and I am sorry you took it that way.

You insulted him, then you tell him you weren't trying to insult him. Not a very good way of explaining yourself. I can easily see what parts of your earlier posts he took offense to and why, perhaps you should reread them.

Originally, no I wasn't. You get told enough to calm down and eventually you lose your calm. Same thing. So yes, earlier on if I was insulting (and rereading some of what I wrote the later posts can come across that way) I apologize. I was getting a little frusterated that instead of actually maybe discussing anything I had said or KLM had orginally said and instead every reply was, distilling it down, no issue I brought up was valid or worth discussing and that at best I was being an idiot for bring up any argument reasoned or otherwise you know, a bunch of strawman arguments, for example

Really though it comes down to a game destabalizing weapon without a decent explination of why every military doesn't use it a lot. Rare technology, expensive, uses some kind of ultra rare crystal or mineral, super high power consumption, massive, negative effect on the ship firing it, etc are all good reasons why it is rare.

Yeah, concentrate on this stuff instead of your incessant, mindless criticism. It might make people think you are actually trying to keep with the spirit of the thread.

Its childish of me to say, but "He started it!" in this case is a little of how I feel. When you are at best offensive and at worst insulting in replies I tend to get the same way.
-Matt

[azazel1024]

I figured. However, considering the previous replies to my posts, even the saintly angel ones with nada in the way of insults or things that could be taken as such I figured nothing could really make it 'worse'.

So yes I realize I just said, "Hey sorry you thought I was being a jerk, but I am going to be a jerk for a minute".
-Matt

[taalismn]

Ah, Prozac in Thread 13? Tranquilizer guns and nets?

So, nano-swarm weapons in space? Or maybe 'smart matter' that can drift about until a ship runs into it, whereafter it reconfigures into something nasty? Perhaos such a weapon of legend could be counted among the arsenals of the Core Aliens in Three Galaxies?
Or would you rule that nanotechnology is too frail to effectively work in deep space or in closer(after all, you really can't shield a nanite too well, and solar radiation could just sterilize the suckers just like it would unprotected organic cells)?

[keir451]

Have the nanites contained in a semi-hollow round so when they impact the target they can infest the ship. Then you own their ship.

[KLM]

Hi there!

How about a weapon system where the attacking ship can "take control", for only a split second, of the target ships shields? Basically, the attacking ship has special emitters that can actively project the enemies shields for them.

Of course, the target ship can reassert control with ease, and quickly, but not before that ship moving at mach X runs into the suddenly stopped shields. Sort of a "turn there greatest defense against them" type of thing. I would say it does some damage to the ship, and perhaps tosses the crew around a bit. Maybe not enough to do much in the way of damage to them, but perhaps enough to make them lose init., and an attack or two?

Well... For my two virtual cents I do not like "tricky" shield bypassing weapons.
Also, shields as I see them aren't invisible walls one can run into.

Assuming that tractor beams are possible, (they are in my games), have a four barrel gun that fires two tractor beams, and two repulsor beams. All of them extremely powerful versions of tractor and repulsor beams, that push and pull on four spots very close to each other, but have such a high energy requirement, they can only do it for a split second.

It is "the basic graviton gun" principle - and as a matter of fact, no need for several different beams.
Just one beam - and the effect is similar to hitting a solid rock.

However shields will stop them - but of course it will deplete them. ie. Roll damage, subtract it first from
the shields, then from the hull. Check crew injuries.

-------------------
Nanotech: Nanites are fine, thought there is the possibility that the target ship blasts you into pieces
and only after then will the nanites take control. However, keep in mind, that in the 3 Galaxies most
military hardware is designed with Machine People hackers in mind -> ie. has some kind of defense
against nanite based intrusion.

Also, seeing the general anti-AI sentiment of the 3 Galaxies, I guess ship computers are designed
with "BSG achitecture" .

Adios
KLM

[keir451]

Hi there!

How about a weapon system where the attacking ship can "take control", for only a split second, of the target ships shields? Basically, the attacking ship has special emitters that can actively project the enemies shields for them.

Of course, the target ship can reassert control with ease, and quickly, but not before that ship moving at mach X runs into the suddenly stopped shields. Sort of a "turn there greatest defense against them" type of thing. I would say it does some damage to the ship, and perhaps tosses the crew around a bit. Maybe not enough to do much in the way of damage to them, but perhaps enough to make them lose init., and an attack or two?

Well... For my two virtual cents I do not like "tricky" shield bypassing weapons.
Also, shields as I see them aren't invisible walls one can run into.

Assuming that tractor beams are possible, (they are in my games), have a four barrel gun that fires two tractor beams, and two repulsor beams. All of them extremely powerful versions of tractor and repulsor beams, that push and pull on four spots very close to each other, but have such a high energy requirement, they can only do it for a split second.

It is "the basic graviton gun" principle - and as a matter of fact, no need for several different beams.
Just one beam - and the effect is similar to hitting a solid rock.

However shields will stop them - but of course it will deplete them. ie. Roll damage, subtract it first from
the shields, then from the hull. Check crew injuries.

-------------------
Nanotech: Nanites are fine, thought there is the possibility that the target ship blasts you into pieces
and only after then will the nanites take control. However, keep in mind, that in the 3 Galaxies most
military hardware is designed with Machine People hackers in mind -> ie. has some kind of defense
against nanite based intrusion.

Also, seeing the general anti-AI sentiment of the 3 Galaxies, I guess ship computers are designed
with "BSG achitecture" .

Adios
KLM

It depends on the level/version of nanites being used, for example if you're using the Windows Vista version of nanites then the CCW's anti Machine person defenses would easily over come them, but if you used an extremely virulent form that was 1,000,000 times MORE advanced than the CCW defenses, then they lose. The nanites could infect the WHOLE ship, hull and all, not just the computers. So the BSG defense doesn't matter when the nanites can literally eat your ships hull and weapons systems out from under you.

[azazel1024]

Maybe something slightly larger than nanites, but still on a micro scale. They could be solar powered with limited self endurance. So they could float along 'indeffinitely' or for a set time period before they shut themselves down. When they encounter a solid object they devour it and self replicate and continue the process.

So you could release a cloud of them in the direction of an enemy ship, or even spread them around like a mine field in space and wait till someone drifted in to it. Advanced enough ones could be 'deactivated' by an IFF signal that is broadcast on ultra low power radio so it is only picked up within a few hundred meters of the ship in question to allow passage of friendly ships.

They couldn't devour a ship quickly, but give them a few hours and they could probably start making some holes in the ship and within minutes might be able to render sensors non-functional, clog weapon bores or erode them dangerously, sieze external joints, etc.
-Matt

[KLM]

Hi there!

Hi there!
Nanotech: Nanites are fine, thought there is the possibility that the target ship blasts you into pieces
and only after then will the nanites take control. However, keep in mind, that in the 3 Galaxies most
military hardware is designed with Machine People hackers in mind -> ie. has some kind of defense
against nanite based intrusion.

Also, seeing the general anti-AI sentiment of the 3 Galaxies, I guess ship computers are designed
with "BSG achitecture" .

It depends on the level/version of nanites being used, for example if you're using the Windows Vista version of nanites then the CCW's anti Machine person defenses would easily over come them, but if you used an extremely virulent form that was 1,000,000 times MORE advanced than the CCW defenses, then they lose. The nanites could infect the WHOLE ship, hull and all, not just the computers. So the BSG defense doesn't matter when the nanites can literally eat your ships hull and weapons systems out from under you.

That raises a few questions:
1, Where those million times advanced nanites coming from?
2, BSG style ships - and as it looks like, 3G ships fall into this category - which are designed
specifically against AI/nanotech intrusion needs to be disabled as a whole. It takes time (from
minutes to hours, even days) - and during that the targeted ship can fight for a degree.
3, Anti-Machine People defenses (and this includes defenses against Telemechanics powered Noros and so on)
might mean a nasty electric surge - which can fry nanites.
4, There is no unpenetratable shield and all-penetrating spear - a measure which can defend a ship
from nanites needs a roll with a dice to be successful, "gamewise", to say so.

Adios
KLM