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How do gods kill each other? other than hand to hand stuff and rune weapons, they are pretty powerless. I mean you are limited to 15th level casting ability? Means nothing when you have 30K MDC and regeneration. Can someone show me the error of my ways or am I right in saying that palladium gods are both sad and comical, and that goes for the old ones too

Two words: They don't. The disputes of gods are settled by the clashes of armies and heroes.

Deific powers are pretty damaging as well.

physical weapons would only tear apart there physical manifestations. See the Dragons and Gods book for more.

KillWatch wrote:How do gods kill each other? other than hand to hand stuff and rune weapons, they are pretty powerless. I mean you are limited to 15th level casting ability? Means nothing when you have 30K MDC and regeneration. Can someone show me the error of my ways or am I right in saying that palladium gods are both sad and comical, and that goes for the old ones too

They don't fight head on to any real effect. They always tyr to have some kind of trap in mind.

the game doesn't allow for gods to be gods.
they can't effect each other with condition spells, because despite their 15th level casting ability (ladeedah), most have significant enough bonuses to where that shouldn't be an issue. It says that if gods were to fight each other planets would be destroyed. Hell as far as I can tell at BEST they can create 15 levels worth of wood and a sanctuary so that no one violently musses it.
(Ra)
I have 17,000 SDC
I have 16,500 HP
I have 6000 PPE
I have 2000 ISP
I am more powerful than dragons, but I can't create dimensions on my own
I am not actually immortal if I don't have followers, which means that, according to the rules, I could be limited by my own race's normal life span, whereas a demigod could be tens of thousands of years
How do I draw up a god? what are the stats? I know that stats of 20+ are apparently deific, and completely human centric.
They can travel to other dimensions (woohoo)
What are the effects of the different "sized" realms? Wow You're tall, people really worship you!
ID Gods and Mortals. Really? Two points of attack here; 1) what is the difference? Apparently they are not innately holy, wise, simply really powerful, and "god" is simply the sticker. 2) really? I don't like the limited view of See Aura but come on. shouldn't this be obvious?
Sensing PPE: Doesn't this undercut "detect mortals/gods"?
Deific Revival: you have to be revived by other gods if slain out of your realm! huh???!. Even Lowly Subdemons don't have to worry about that
Profound Fertility: sigh,...
Omniscience: Not
Omnipotence: Not
Other Gods: bs
All gods are vulnerable
Feet of Clay: Hell these gods have feet to bleached roots of clay
Love of Mortals: really? No according to the layout, its a symbiotic relationship.
Body investments?
Primal Manifestation: Super single shape metamorphosis
Banish? 600 years? really? not even permanent?
350 for 1000SDC. 350 pts by regualar Regeneration=1050 (max roll allowed)
Primal Deific Healing: 1200 for total healing = which if you have more than 3600 SDC it is a deal and recovers half ISP
Forge holy Weapon: 100+50 per ABILITY! (limit 4) wuss
Hellfire Blast: A) less accurate than a low level D&D spell-Magic Missile and does up to 6400 in a melee. 1000 pt fireball = IF palladium allowed for over spending, 1000 pts at level 15 (15d6=90) at a cost of 10 points each would be 9000 points. Unimpressive.
Godblaze: the only combat ability that may begin to seem deific in scope, but it's 2000 pts AND the god has to give up their body and HOPE that the he is in a pantheon that likes him. 1 mil for the first 100 feet and up to 30k for the next 100 and 1000 feet takes 120 pts wow. APS: Fire: Super Nova: BR=700 feet. 10k pts for 100 feet. 5000 for 200 feet. 1000 for 300 feet, 500 for 400-500. and 100 for 600-700 feet
manifestations: only two bodies
Mobile Sphere of Destruction: 220 mph=Speed of thought=Strike+6, 2d4x10 AND you get stunned

Impressive for normal mortals, not so much for anything near 15th level

KillWatch wrote:the game doesn't allow for gods to be gods.

The game allows Gods to be killable. And without having to be 80th level with several worlds' resources worth of magic equipment.

Those who stat Gods design them to be killed.
I don't know who said it, but it holds true. If you want an unkillable "God of Gods" kinda deal, simply don't stat him, or have his hitpoints be his followers of something. As in, "in order to knock said God to zero HP you have to kill all his followers" sort of deal.

I think you should be "80th level". Killing a god SHOULD be nigh if not full on epic. 15th level should be able to take on major baddies. Another problem is is that priests of the gods can actually run the risk of becoming as powerful as the gods. I love the idea of an epic quest to take on a god, but gods like Torak from David Eddings, I think is simply a powerful immortal/mystic bestowed or demigod-ish in power

maybe in stages, 15 levels in each
Mortal
Immortal
Demigod-ish
Godling
God
Greater God
Ancient High One

or soemthing like that

KillWatch wrote:I think you should be "80th level". Killing a god SHOULD be nigh if not full on epic. 15th level should be able to take on major baddies. Another problem is is that priests of the gods can actually run the risk of becoming as powerful as the gods. I love the idea of an epic quest to take on a god, but gods like Torak from David Eddings, I think is simply a powerful immortal/mystic bestowed or demigod-ish in power

maybe in stages, 15 levels in each
Mortal
Immortal
Demigod-ish
Godling
God
Greater God
Ancient High One

or soemthing like that

That doesn't work though in the Palladium universe, or atleast the default one. They foolishly put stats on their "Gods" (if you can call them that), and labelled stuff like Godlings, making them pretty weak; Something a first level character can actually kill with the simple expenditure of resources.

If you want what you describe, then you need to change the game as written - which I very much hope you do.

Because the gods know they are powerful and as someone mentioned above they really actually meet in fisticuffs it is all about "getting one over" on another pantheon. they may destroy temples or worshippers or convert a country or planet before another etc etc.

If they did clash the magic resistances and bonuses make it more applicable to hack and slash each other.

so classical greek mythology
Norse Mythology they are both monolithically powerful and killing each other
Gods can and do create worlds
I can't think of any self centered mythologies other than the old testament and the greek/roman
at least the greeks intone a cautionary vibe
In Norse the gods learn lessons, about humility, honor, and wisdom
Hinduism is all about the way one should achieve enlightenment
The Egyptian gods certainly were not humble, but they were showing us how to be-again truth, kindness, generosity, etc
I am speaking only of the religions and not the people, because if you want something effed up, insert people

Even if you still cling to the idea of imperfect beings, all of them still had creation stories where a being or a group of beings created the world/universe.stars/oceans/life

as for the norse again, Baldur is still dead via mistletoe. Killing each other all day long is a bit of an exaggeration, like almost completely. They will battle and that battle will destroy the world/universe (thank you loki you ass), and now that I think about it, except for christian mythology, is the only other that has and end of the world scenario

TheWarriorPoet wrote:Palladium Gods are not best equated to the monolithically powerful transcendental beings that most modern religions worship. Rather they are best viewed as the pagan Gods of the ancient world were viewed: flawed, superhuman beings that were as much reflections of the humanity that worshipped them as they were powerful. They are relatively (in the cosmic sense) narrowly-focussed beings of ancient mythology, who were NOT, for example, generally world-destroying omnipotent higher beings. More often then not, ancient myths focus on the flawed, magnified human character quirks of beings that are better thought of as very powerful hero-figures.

Siva begs to differ. He's got a package that can destroy the universe. Just think how much damage the rest of him could do.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

TheWarriorPoet wrote:Palladium Gods are not best equated to the monolithically powerful transcendental beings that most modern religions worship. Rather they are best viewed as the pagan Gods of the ancient world were viewed: flawed, superhuman beings that were as much reflections of the humanity that worshipped them as they were powerful. They are relatively (in the cosmic sense) narrowly-focussed beings of ancient mythology, who were NOT, for example, generally world-destroying omnipotent higher beings. More often then not, ancient myths focus on the flawed, magnified human character quirks of beings that are better thought of as very powerful hero-figures.

Siva begs to differ. He's got a package that can destroy the universe. Just think how much damage the rest of him could do.

But even Shiva knows he can only act when Vishnu is at his weakest and even then only when Brahma allows it (thereby, not omnipotent and world-destroying). Only the interaction, the ebb and flow if you will, of creation, vitality, and destruction of forms in the universe are represented in them. They are each powerless without the other and together they make one God. So, I would have to say that even these gods are weak when compared to the humans who follow them.

Humans have always held a power that ALL gods fear - the ability to destroy gods and turn them into nothing more than glorified superheroes.

but it is only by palladium rules this is so. again a god in palladium is still really tough, but only really tough for mortals.
Anyhow, I think D&D does it right. The only thing you actually do destroy, if you can, is simply an avatar
I've gone here before but I will again
If any of you remember the Immortals boxed set from D&D, you could create life, worlds, galaxies, universes and even dimensions. No losing of body parts, no followers needed, you have simply ascended. And that isn't god status, that is simply immortal. Now they may have been playing with the term immortal to bypass any criticisms over the word god, but still.
What being created the earth, the three galaxies, what force?

Ninjapuppy wrote:Most of the star ships in the 3 galaxies have weapons that do 1d6x 1000 MD at 100 000 miles. It kind of puts the current notion of gods in perspective if a fleet attacks. It may be an instance were, as mentioned armies do their fighting, but you have to wonder what happends when the army realizes that it is more powerful than the god it serves? Maybe an update is needed to clarify the idea of godliness and deific powers. Raising the 24 dead, and fiing a level 15 fireball is going to cut it.

What happens when the twelve tribes of Israel realise that they could totally kick King David's ass if they bum rush him?

Dunno how to break it to you, but most armies (even armies of evil warlords) aren't made up of people who serve because they're afraid that the big boss is able to personally kick their ass. The Mongol hordes didn't expect Ghenghis Khan to personally massacre every soldier in China. The doughboys didn't expect Woodrow Wilson to be able to wrestle German tanks with his bare hands and snort mustard gas like it was coke. The VC didn't expect Ho Chi Minh to be able to swim across the Pacific, level the Whitehouse with a roundhouse kick, and tear the heads off the American joint chiefs of staff.

So the mighty god Zeus can't defeat a fleet of space battleships. FDR couldn't even play football, but he didn't face a revolt the first time someone realised that an FDR vs Graf Spree cage fight would be short and lopsided.

Although zeus SHOUld be able to that is really good point rallan and painfully obvious

interesting WP, some small possible problems with that;
-Gods are SDC in SDC realms so sayeth the law of mega damage. Horus has an AR 12, SDC 4000 and HP 2600
-As the book lays out, without followers the gods are weak, so ho was anything done before there was anything to worship them?

KillWatch wrote:How do gods kill each other? other than hand to hand stuff and rune weapons, they are pretty powerless. I mean you are limited to 15th level casting ability? Means nothing when you have 30K MDC and regeneration. Can someone show me the error of my ways or am I right in saying that palladium gods are both sad and comical, and that goes for the old ones too

Double-check the levels of the gods. Several of them go beyond level 15 for magic.

sdo instead of 15d6 it is what 20d6? does it go up to 30d6? for a fireball
and saves, As far as I know, saving against a spell cast by a god is the same as saving against ANYONE else, 1st level or otherwise

Beatmeclever wrote:

Misfit KotLD wrote:

TheWarriorPoet wrote:Palladium Gods are not best equated to the monolithically powerful transcendental beings that most modern religions worship. Rather they are best viewed as the pagan Gods of the ancient world were viewed: flawed, superhuman beings that were as much reflections of the humanity that worshipped them as they were powerful. They are relatively (in the cosmic sense) narrowly-focussed beings of ancient mythology, who were NOT, for example, generally world-destroying omnipotent higher beings. More often then not, ancient myths focus on the flawed, magnified human character quirks of beings that are better thought of as very powerful hero-figures.

Siva begs to differ. He's got a package that can destroy the universe. Just think how much damage the rest of him could do.

But even Shiva knows he can only act when Vishnu is at his weakest and even then only when Brahma allows it (thereby, not omnipotent and world-destroying). Only the interaction, the ebb and flow if you will, of creation, vitality, and destruction of forms in the universe are represented in them. They are each powerless without the other and together they make one God. So, I would have to say that even these gods are weak when compared to the humans who follow them.

Humans have always held a power that ALL gods fear - the ability to destroy gods and turn them into nothing more than glorified superheroes.

That's a later imposition. At the time, the followers of Siva didn't think Siva needed anyone's permission. In fact, only a mountain goddess was able to "pacify" the lingam via means not discussable on this forum.

KillWatch wrote:sdo instead of 15d6 it is what 20d6? does it go up to 30d6? for a fireball
and saves, As far as I know, saving against a spell cast by a god is the same as saving against ANYONE else, 1st level or otherwise

I don't see why a gods magic cant continue to stack. 30D6? sure, why not. As has been said before NPCs don't always follow the rules.

ah well see my point was that that is still pretty weak at 180 sdc/mdc, but I think all NPCs should follow the rules. if they break them they set precedent
and it isn't actually breaking the rules. You can be level thirty, it just takes 1 million per level beyond 15, which Id on't know immortal beings wouldn't be at least level 100 or so

AzathothXy wrote:

KillWatch wrote:sdo instead of 15d6 it is what 20d6? does it go up to 30d6? for a fireball
and saves, As far as I know, saving against a spell cast by a god is the same as saving against ANYONE else, 1st level or otherwise

I don't see why a gods magic cant continue to stack. 30D6? sure, why not. As has been said before NPCs don't always follow the rules.

As he said, yes the damage and duration continue to increase. Personally, I also add up all their OCCs when figuring out this sort of stuff.

The Beast wrote:

AzathothXy wrote:

KillWatch wrote:sdo instead of 15d6 it is what 20d6? does it go up to 30d6? for a fireball
and saves, As far as I know, saving against a spell cast by a god is the same as saving against ANYONE else, 1st level or otherwise

I don't see why a gods magic cant continue to stack. 30D6? sure, why not. As has been said before NPCs don't always follow the rules.

As he said, yes the damage and duration continue to increase. Personally, I also add up all their OCCs when figuring out this sort of stuff.

Exactly. So Zeus is a 20th level air and water warlock, a 15th level
LLW and a 15th level warior. So either he casts spells at either 70th level(all classes) or at 55th level(just the magic classes).

interesting, but I won't use that. If the players can't do it then I can't either

KillWatch wrote:interesting, but I won't use that. If the players can't do it then I can't either

Are the players gods?

The Beast wrote:

KillWatch wrote:interesting, but I won't use that. If the players can't do it then I can't either

Are the players gods?

I wouldn't recommed asking them.

no they aren't gods, but if the were to ever reach that point, I wouldn't allow it. I mean all of a sudden you are "45th" level because you have three classes at 15 levels each. All parts of my game are accessible. Plausible? Easy? Non Scarring? No. But they can get there if they do the right things, meet the right people, sacrifice the right virigins to the right god etc etc etc

anyhow
the original point was to find out how, by the book, gods could kill each other without being one trick ponies. A god, as pointed out with ships, wouldn't even be able to take on mortals in giant vessels straight on.

I have solutions for it, and even some reasoning that makes it make sense but I was asking off hand

-1 Thor should be dead
-2 I understand all this, and they are good suggestions, but it still doesn't say "god" to me. It says really powerful long lived beings. The name isn't as catchy as gods, but don't try to pass off a goose for a swan Palladium.
- Godblaze, again is the one trick pony to kill a god
-I guess I will just have to use the stats given as avatars, allow for multi casting (pumping 1000 points into armor of Ithan), and keep them as MDC beings no matter where they are, or even GDC

I think Nightlords are closer to Godly power than the ones in Pantheons of the Megaverse. Their matter and energy powers could easily destroy anything provided they have enough P.P.E., and those powers are essential to the gods in my games.

MT-NME wrote:The problem is, once you give a God stats, it ceases to be a God. They merely become a more powerfull being.

Treating the statted gods as avatars is the best sollution to your problem, Kill.

Yeah but how do you define what a god is? The concept of god that most mainstream christian churches adopt (that God is omnipotent and that his essence is beyond rational comprehension) is a far cry from the gods of classical mythology who feuded with each other, could be tricked, had finite powers, and occasionally got killed.

KillWatch wrote:-1 Thor should be dead
-2 I understand all this, and they are good suggestions, but it still doesn't say "god" to me. It says really powerful long lived beings. The name isn't as catchy as gods, but don't try to pass off a goose for a swan Palladium.
- Godblaze, again is the one trick pony to kill a god
-I guess I will just have to use the stats given as avatars, allow for multi casting (pumping 1000 points into armor of Ithan), and keep them as MDC beings no matter where they are, or even GDC

Rallan wrote:

MT-NME wrote:The problem is, once you give a God stats, it ceases to be a God. They merely become a more powerfull being.

Treating the statted gods as avatars is the best sollution to your problem, Kill.

Yeah but how do you define what a god is? The concept of god that most mainstream christian churches adopt (that God is omnipotent and that his essence is beyond rational comprehension) is a far cry from the gods of classical mythology who feuded with each other, could be tricked, had finite powers, and occasionally got killed.

See Rallan's point about deific expectations. You are looking for the Judeo-Christian god instead of the gods of antiquity and of the non-Christian world.

The god of the bible isn't all that either. He had been successfully lied to, he needed mortals to help im out, he was petty, jealous, irrational and vengeful. So it's like Zeus reinvented himself

Depends on which point in the Bible you're talking about. If you haven't noticed, God's moods, demeanor, and abilities change throughout the book.

I couldn't really get through the first half. Almost but not quite.

KillWatch wrote:The god of the bible isn't all that either. He had been successfully lied to, he needed mortals to help im out, he was petty, jealous, irrational and vengeful. So it's like Zeus reinvented himself

Yes but the god of your local church is all that. I dunno if you've noticed, but most mainstream denominations have gone in for the concept of God as all-powerful and all-knowing, and quietly encourage you not to ask awkward questions about Old Testament stories where God acts suspiciously like a deity straight out of classical myth who can be surprised, make mistakes, and lose his temper.

yeah I I kinda did notice that