Has any one thought to tackle a retcon of the EBSIS?

[jaymz]

They make a good adversary for all the periods in between each invasion.

[Jefffar]

I've been working it out for myself how an EBSIS would play in. While not mentioned in the series, there is nothing that I find especially prevents it from existing either. The presence of former soviet hardware in the UEDF's arsenal (and in the Anti-UN's arsenal for that matter) does indicate that the former Soviets didn't simply cease to exist when the SDF-1 arrived.

I think the biggest argument for an entity like the EBSIS existing in the periods the RPG deals with is the general fragmentation of the world after the Zentraedi global assault. Until the UEG was fully re-establish (we don't have a solid date on this in the new RPG, but I'd say probably not until the early 2020s) large tracts of the world were essentially left on their own to fend for themselves. So in this decade (give or take) without a unified global government, regional power houses could develop and even thrive. So here we have the possibility for the EBSIS to exist for the reconstruction era.

But what next? There seems to be no mention in the cartoons or RPG of major forces opposed to the UEG in The Master's Saga time frame.

No worries, the world in the Master's Saga may have a unified government again, but the structure of the UEG still allows for the EBSIS. The regional powerhouses that came about in the reconstruction era still exist. They still are mostly responsible for themselves and their own people. The UEG is more of an over-government. It's kind of like the relationship a king used to have on his barons. Yeah the king was in charge overall, but each baron was strong on his own. The barons owed their fealty to the king, answered his call and paid him taxes, but for the most part were free to govern what was theirs.

So in the latter reconstruction era, the UEG has (through diplomacy or force) brought the EBSIS to heel as a subordinate power, helping produce mecha, weapons and supplying troops to the UEDF to fight the Masters. They may be willing or they may not, but they did serve.

This actually makes the EBSIS much more interesting I think, for no longer are they necessarily a technological inferior, but an actual part of the war machine that is the UEG.

Now we move onto the next era, between the Masters and the Invid's invasion. At this point, the UEG is in shambles as their primary military forces and command facilities were destroyed in the war. At this point all those regional power houses find themselves unfettered by the a central government (and unaware that another alien invasion may occur). Once again we are in survival of the fittest mode, and the EBSIS rises to prominence. At this point the story follows much like the original RPG did with the EBSIS expanding into near global dominance before the destruction wrought by the Invid.

By the way, as an interesting aside, one of the adventure hooks in the Shadow Chronicles RPG had characters flying over the former Soviet Union attacked by Conbats or Valkyries for violating "sovereign airspace." So apparently the EBSIS survived the Invid too.

[jaymz]

Very nice I like this and would like to see how you flesh itout....

[taalismn]

Focus on cheap guns and missiles with advanced explosive umph...then later, focus on cheap mecha that take advantage of their opposition's more readily available(i.e. accessible to thieves and to knock-off manufacturers) spare parts. Drown the opposition in quantity with a lot of cheap, low cost units slinging enough lead to overwhelm quality systems. And while your Logans are trying to deal with those dozen or so knock-off CDU Battloids, there's a couple of teams of enemy infantry lining up on you with Improved Strelas.

[glitterboy2098]

i like the idea of the EBSIS being a "new UEG member state", especially since that opens up the option to bring back groups like York and south american nations from the old RPG in the same way. the different splinter states might not all like each other much, and might keep the UEG busy with brushwars and squabbles when no obvious threat from beyond is present (thus explaining the seeming all potent Global Military Police?), but all recognizing an overarcing leadership council for the good of earth and all mankind...

for gear, i'd go with them sticking ot a mostly conventional force upgraded with robotechnology based weapons and armor, and a small corps of mecha derived from pre-rain of death destroid technology... not unlike the old RPG's approach, only do a better job with the mecha...

i'd personally go with a central europe centered group, with german and russian influences, rather than the soviet russia redux of the old rpg...

[Jefffar]

Well the old version was the entire Warsaw Pact essentially, so it had the German and Russian influence.

A for the technology, there are Russian companies involved in the UEG equipment in the Macross era book. Likewise there are apparently Conbats and Valkyries operating over former soviet territory in the Shadow Chronicles book. So I'd say that the EBSIS is at least a macth for old Macross Era technology, plus some of the older UEEF stuff. They may not quite reach the 2030 level tech used in Master's Saga or the later UEEF stuff, but they definitely are capable.

I still prefer to focus them on conventional arms rather than Mecha, but they should be able to produce VF-1s, The Modular Destroid series, the Spartan and probably the Condor battloid plus some unique mecha designs.

[jedi078]

Why does the EBSIS have to have inferior equipment to the UEDF? I just don’t get this line of thought that the EBSIS should without a doubt have inferior equipment then the UEDF.

Both the UEG and EBSIS have access to the same tech purloined from the crashed hulks of Zentraedi warships. Sure, one could say that the UEDF has the SDF-1 and later a Robotech Factory. But the SDF-1 got blown up and all the RT factory is good for is producing mecha and space ship after it was retooled.

But as Jeffar has pointed out a number of UEDF equipment is based off of Russian designs. This hints to the fact that Russia was part of the UEG before the Zentraedi Rain of Death. This of course means that EBSIS assisted in the design of UEDF specific equipment to including the veritechs and Destriods. Russia (and later the EBSIS) would also likely have factories for building UEDF mecha. At the very least the EBSIS would have engineers who worked on the designs of the Veritechs and Destriods. From there it is a simple matter of the EBSIS and the UEG building different mecha after the RoD. So essentially we have an arms race of who can build a better mecha.

Let’s not forget that if both the UEG and the EBSIS exist, then both organizations would have fought against the Zentraedi Malcontents. So in effect both would be semi quasi allies. I make this more evident that the two sides would have to cooperate (at least a little bit) in my universe where the Zentraedi Malcontents hold central South America, central Africa, the entire Asian subcontinent, and south East Asia.

[Tiree]

Jedi078 - I think the reasoning is manufacturing capability. The EBSIS may have the superior or equal knowledge, but they are years behind in the manufacturing ability. Factories, etc... Thus allowing the UEDF/RDF to get geared up faster and quicker due to the SDF and later the Robotech Factory.

This is just going with the concept after the RoD the Earth had no manufacturing capability or limited capability. The only true manufacturing would come from the SDF (which we knew was making Valkyries and Destroids) and later the Robotech Factory.

Then there is also the fact of, if there was manufacturing, it probably would go towards feeding the populace first, before making war. You got to feed your troops. This cycle would probably turn, but the infrastructure would have to be put in place first.

[Jefffar]

We must not get trapped in the old RPG.

In the old RPG Valkyries had protoculture power systems that lasted decades. Now, they last hours. The fact that the EBSIS is still fielding fully transformable Valkyries (not single mode battloids) in the 2040s indicates that the EBSIS must be capable of refuelling them. Given that the EBSIS in the new RPG would need to be aligned with the UEG for at least part of it's history, it stands to reason that they have the same technology available to them as at least Macross era UEDF, and probably on to the era of the Conbat (mid 2020s) as it is also specifically mentioned in the Shadow Chronicles book.

So compared with the old EBSIS which was stuck in the 1980s during the reconstruction era, this EBSIS isn't stuck with just knock off and rebuilt gear.

So let go of the old assumptions, embrace the new possibilities.

[Arnie100]

I used the SV-51 from Macross Zero as an EBSIS mecha in a game against my players You should've seen the looks on their faces!

[glitterboy2098]

We must not get trapped in the old RPG.

In the old RPG Valkyries had protoculture power systems that lasted decades. Now, they last hours. The fact that the EBSIS is still fielding fully transformable Valkyries (not single mode battloids) in the 2040s indicates that the EBSIS must be capable of refuelling them. Given that the EBSIS in the new RPG would need to be aligned with the UEG for at least part of it's history, it stands to reason that they have the same technology available to them as at least Macross era UEDF, and probably on to the era of the Conbat (mid 2020s) as it is also specifically mentioned in the Shadow Chronicles book.

So compared with the old EBSIS which was stuck in the 1980s during the reconstruction era, this EBSIS isn't stuck with just knock off and rebuilt gear.

So let go of the old assumptions, embrace the new possibilities.

keep the good of the old, drop the rest. socialist instead of soviet. (fine distinction, mainly in goals, but still). still uses non-protoculture powersources, only now they're SLMH fueled fusion plants instead of plutonium fueled fission. a focus on Destroid-type units and conventional armor over Variable form mecha can be kept, only now it's because Destroids and tanks are cheaper to make with earth level tech than Veritechs are, thus in order to build an effective military with earthbound resources on a devestated world, they have to economize. (the United Earth has zentreadi factory sats, larger portions of the planet, and access to extra-planetary resources...they can afford to build big veritech heavy forces..) i'd keep the telemental control system, only now it's a "how can we improve our mecha's reaction times over the UEG's designs?", much like how the VF-1's have those fly-by-wire bonuses...

heck, if we're getting rid of the cold-war framework for UEG and EBSIS relations, we can even give the EBSIS its own colony worlds, settled using ships from their zentreadi members... as long as they're limited to only a couple of working ships, the UEG wouldn't really have much to complain about.

[jedi078]

I used the SV-51 from Macross Zero as an EBSIS mecha in a game against my players You should've seen the looks on their faces!

I use the VF-11 Thunderbolt as an EBSIS Valkyrie. But i did make it a mecha that is on par with the VF-1. But I can see where the SV-51 would work, and probably more so too.

I also have both the UEG and EBSIS have plenty of fixed wing aircraft. As for veritechs, they do not have more armor then a destriod in my games, so you have to rely on your get outta dodge bonuses to insure your survival. Now if your a Destriod pilot...those things can take a beating (anything short of when I roll nat 20 and a plasma torpedo is fired at you) and still keep fighting.

[MikelAmroni]

And you can live through a nat 20 in a tomahawk - though you may have to change pants. I didn't, but still. Nat 20 Autocannon Cockpit hit....glad I was going one pilot, not two!

As for the EBSIS in the new chronology - I'd definately have them go tank/battloid heavy. And I can see them using semi-transformable stuff over full out transformation sequences. Think the civilian veritech from Macross II, as opposed to a full veritech, or a quad legged mech with tanks on the legs for long distance transport (less shock and wear and tear, but quad legged gives it extra manueverability when it needs it). In short I see their "newer" designs being ultra rugged and ultra utilitarian - especially if you have it on another colony. As agile as the UEEF? not a chance. As tough? you'd better believe it. Weapons would favor slug throwers (cheaper and much easier to replace parts - and still effective), and parts commonality would be high.

But that's just how I'd do it.

[Defender_X]

The idea that came to me on this was to have the EBSIS be a part of the UEG, but opposed to the neo-feudal structure of the government. Gear-wise, mostly UEDF with a smattering of early UEEF gear and a few pieces of ASC and some leftover Zent gear. I figure the best way to use them is as a focus for opposing political views based on the era. An 'us-first' mentality during the reconstruction era, make colonies vs bunkerdown around the second war and after the Invid, more of a ''yankee go home' reaction to the UEEF.

[Defender_X]

Which to add to the previous post from me is that it now has Don Henley's song 'A She Wants to Do is Dance'in my head now.

[Chris0013]

My current take is that they were part of the UEDF until the Rain of Death....The Soviet Union always had a network of bomb shelters in case or nuclear war so in the Robotech universe they maintained them....as well they were able to surreptitiously(sp?) build some destroid factories and took plans for alternate models that they would produce for themselves if the UEDF fell apart....which it did. use some of the original mecha units from Strikeforce and such for their Destroids/Battloids.

[panzerfaust]

The idea that came to me on this was to have the EBSIS be a part of the UEG, but opposed to the neo-feudal structure of the government. Gear-wise, mostly UEDF with a smattering of early UEEF gear and a few pieces of ASC and some leftover Zent gear. I figure the best way to use them is as a focus for opposing political views based on the era. An 'us-first' mentality during the reconstruction era, make colonies vs bunkerdown around the second war and after the Invid, more of a ''yankee go home' reaction to the UEEF.

I agree I mostly give the EBSIS the UEDF and reconfigured Zent Gear gear in my games.

[FreelancerMar]

Ok lets take a step back and a deep calming breath.

This is just my take on the way things happened.

One must also remember when Robotech first hit the airwaves back in the mid 80's. The quality of most Soviet military equipment was not only on par with the best that America was fielding at the time but in some cases was actually superior to American Design's. The world was still very much on a cold war footing back then. Which was also reflected in the RPG material being Printed at the time. The RDF/UEDF was seen as an american service branch to the average viewer.

The Soviet/EBSIS were not given or trusted with mecha tech Pre-ROD. They Manufactured Non-Mecha Military equipment for the UEG and only a fool or an idiot would believe that they did not keep some of that for themselves. Which is why they were not trusted with mecha manufacturing tech. They were still a comunist based government back then and were portrayed as such in the RPG writeups. One does not give a potential enemy the capability to produce superior military grade weapons which can be turned against oneself.

The Comanchero is obviously just an updated, Re-Designed Mil-24d Hind gunship. The current TMS sourcebook sites a very large portion of non-mecha guns are of soviet design and manufacture.

What I see is basically this. The Soviets/EBSIS became a UEG member for the sole purpose of getting it's hands on Advanced military and mecha tech and only played lip service to the UEG. However the vast majority of the UEG nations saw right through this and tasked them with manufacturing only Non-mecha grade equipment which understandabily pissed them off to no end. However since they were in the know about the earliest mecha stuff, they began their own R&D into mecha tech which actually beard fruit. After the Rod and after they got back on thier feet, They had enough understanding of mecha tech to start producing their own designs and therefore removed themselves from the UEG. They also started Salvage operations everywhere there was a conflect using mecha in order to R&D better stuff for themselves.

Thats my take on it thus far.

[KSN]

Nice thread but what's the term retcon exactly?

/puts_on_flak_jacket

[jaymz]

Nice thread but what's the term retcon exactly?

/puts_on_flak_jacket

I think it means retro connection or sumsuch. In other words to retro connect the EBSIS to the new version of Robotech since hey were/are ficticious and were never in Robotech at all.

[Shawn Merrow]

Nice thread but what's the term retcon exactly?

/puts_on_flak_jacket

Retcon

P.S. Flak Jackets won't stop S.D.C. bullets so no chance with M.D.C. weapons.

[jaymz]

Nice thread but what's the term retcon exactly?

/puts_on_flak_jacket

Retcon

P.S. Flak Jackets won't stop S.D.C. bullets so no chance with M.D.C. weapons.

HEY i was pretty close with my guess GO ME!

[KSN]

Nice thread but what's the term retcon exactly?

/puts_on_flak_jacket

Retcon

P.S. Flak Jackets won't stop S.D.C. bullets so no chance with M.D.C. weapons.

Hahaha... Guess so but it makes me feel better!

Actually I don't feel so dumb for asking as that seems to be an industry term that I wouldn't have known rather than me just showing my age

[slade the sniper]

I used the SV-51 from Macross Zero as an EBSIS mecha in a game against my players You should've seen the looks on their faces!

i always thought the sv_51 was supposed the be an ebsis mecha... minus all the licensing and continuity issues.

-STS

[jedi078]

I used the SV-51 from Macross Zero as an EBSIS mecha in a game against my players You should've seen the looks on their faces!

i always thought the sv_51 was supposed the be an ebsis mecha... minus all the licensing and continuity issues.

-STS

I use it as their gen 1 vertiech. Their gen 2 VT's are VF-11's from Macross plus.