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I really like the Crazy OCC in Rifts yet have always felt that they need to get the same treatment that Juicers received in the JU book. Anyone else interested in seeing a sourcebook like that?

Yepp. MINDWERKZ is/was the Crazy OCC styled sourcebook.
Only problem, it did not include a good selection of Alternate Crazy OCCs.
Instead they gave us more M.O.M. Styled Implants for various effects and abilties.
Plus it threw in alot of junk not Crazy Related. Gene-splicers, Mindwerkz Borgs and Robots, etc...

BUT Yeah I agree. CRAZIES do need a better OCC Book for themselves to expand on the OCC.
Collect the various Crazy OCCs printed into one Book. Standard Crazy, Ultra-Crazy, Lightning Warriors, Wired-Slinger Crazy...and throw in a few more type for fun sake.

AND for Pete's Sake. Lets get rid of the Crazy OCC's Sterotype as a LooneyToon type of moronic character. Insanity is not being Looney. They should be insane in other more realistic ways. With Insanities that better fit their Lifestyle and adventures. The Random Insanity Tables suckarse. Look to other OCCs with Unique Insanity Tables ... Anti-Monsters, Cold-Blooded, etc.

Will we get a new CRAZY Uprising book. Nope.

Mindwerks is a half assed book for crazies seeing how its not just them ju is more or less nothing but juicers i think crazies do need there own book out of all the aug character you can play i think the crazy is the most fun and yes some of the tables need to be redone cuz there just loony not crazy

Sureshot wrote:I really like the Crazy OCC in Rifts yet have always felt that they need to get the same treatment that Juicers received in the JU book. Anyone else interested in seeing a sourcebook like that?

I expected one, but all we ever got was Mindwerks, which isn't exactly the same thing.

I think (and have always thought) that each OCC in the main book needs their own book expanding on the class.
Also, each major company, each important town/city/nation/kingdom/whatever.

TechnoGothic wrote:AND for Pete's Sake. Lets get rid of the Crazy OCC's Sterotype as a LooneyToon type of moronic character. Insanity is not being Looney.

It can be, and I don't mind that stereotype for Crazies.... but I really do think that there should be other stereotypes as well.

They should be insane in other more realistic ways. With Insanities that better fit their Lifestyle and adventures.

Yes.

The Random Insanity Tables suckarse.

They were pretty decent 20+ years ago... but it's a crime that they haven't been updates and added to.

Heck, they could have a whole book on insanity alone.

I know about Mindwerks and after rereading it again imo unlike JU it does not really do justice to the Crazy as an occ at all. Every now and then I look through the JU book. I barely look through Mindwerks. Not sure if it is because JU is just so awesome as a sourcebook or the writing in Mindweks to me anyway is just bland. The class imo deserves better. As for the insanities table yes they really deserve an update. Than again if your going to do that you might as well make a new edition. But that is a topic for another discussion.

TechnoGothic wrote:Will we get a new CRAZY Uprising book. Nope.

Pretty much agree with all of your post TG. Still I think we will eventually see a CU book. If they are releasing two vampire books to cash in on the vampire craze I see no reason not to do a CU. They have a great pool of freelancers. I'm sure one of them could do the Crazy occ justice.

Yeah it could be called Crazy Asylum! The only problem is, is that MOM implants are really just cybernetics so new ones should be included in a revised Bionics sourcebook in 5 years or so when they do that. So Crazy Asylum would be just a fluff book and I hate pure fluff books that enforce that your game must go this way. Yeah the GM can accept or ignore it but if a GM ignores stuff like that then the GM often feels cheated as they could have been coming out with other books more usefull or at least what that GM considers usefull. CA wouldn't be covering something everyone has been wanting to know about either like Lazlo, which would also likely be a fluff book but it would detail a location integral to the lore of Rifts.

Crazies are too crazy to organize an uprising.
Crazies are a sub OCC of cyborg.
Crazies would eat all your Twinkies(tm)

How's this come up with a Crazy OCC that is independant of the MOM implants as anyone could get the MOM implants. Yet at the same time it has to take into account that the character will receive the implants and gain insanities. How does the class differ from the original?

Now make a variety of MOM implants with random unique insanities related to the implant.

Which of the above two is going to expand the class more?

This has however given me a great idea for an adventure.

Juicer implants are also cybernetic/bionic.

IMO, beyond the offerings of Psinetic implants (which are only available from the Angel of Death, IIRC) and some basics about MOM implants and how they are being used by the Angel for her brodkil allies, there wasn't really anything in Mindwerks dealing with crazies.

That said, I'm not sure if the Crazies by themselves could support a book focusing on them for the meat of the book. I wouldn't mind seeing one though if someone could figure out how to get it done right.

Mercdog wrote:IMO, beyond the offerings of Psinetic implants (which are only available from the Angel of Death, IIRC) and some basics about MOM implants and how they are being used by the Angel for her brodkil allies, there wasn't really anything in Mindwerks dealing with crazies.

That said, I'm not sure if the Crazies by themselves could support a book focusing on them for the meat of the book. I wouldn't mind seeing one though if someone could figure out how to get it done right.

Off the Top of my Head for this book.

Standard Crazies Revised and Expanded. Or just detailed more.
Ultra-Crazy (SA2) OCC = A TW MDC Crazy. Reprinted. Expanded.
Symbiote-Crazy = (New) Bio-Wizardy/Symbiote enhaced with new Worm/Snake-like Symbiotes sticking out of their head.
Psynetic Crazy = Expanded into New OCC of its own.
Master-Crazy = (new) A Master Psychic who undergoes M.O.M. conversion. Alot of Pschic Powers.
Crazy Gladiator OCC.
Wired-Slinger = Reprinted for variety.

SECRET CS CRAZY SPECIAL FORCES OCC = No Visiable Implants. Included other Cybernetics such as Cyber-Armor, and a Kill-Bomb (head). They are the Ninja of the CS Forces. Martial Art Masters. The do not go insane like normal Crazies. Only picking up an Insanity at Level 5, 10, and 15. Due to Mental Conditioning Before the process. ME 20+ required.

TechnoGothic wrote:Standard Crazies Revised and Expanded. Or just detailed more.
Ultra-Crazy (SA2) OCC = A TW MDC Crazy. Reprinted. Expanded.
Symbiote-Crazy = (New) Bio-Wizardy/Symbiote enhaced with new Worm/Snake-like Symbiotes sticking out of their head.
Psynetic Crazy = Expanded into New OCC of its own.
Master-Crazy = (new) A Master Psychic who undergoes M.O.M. conversion. Alot of Pschic Powers.
Crazy Gladiator OCC.
Wired-Slinger = Reprinted for variety.

SECRET CS CRAZY SPECIAL FORCES OCC = No Visiable Implants. Included other Cybernetics such as Cyber-Armor, and a Kill-Bomb (head). They are the Ninja of the CS Forces. Martial Art Masters. The do not go insane like normal Crazies. Only picking up an Insanity at Level 5, 10, and 15. Due to Mental Conditioning Before the process. ME 20+ required.

I like this. It would make for more varitey. At the very least an update to the class since imo it really needs it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Juicer implants are also cybernetic/bionic.

Eh... What part is that? I thought it was all external augmentation which would make it neither cybernetic or bionic. Considering rather than giving specific powers it gives bonuses it would be harder but interesting to have a make your own juice list. Hey there is an idea make a make your own juicer mechanic. Three drugs, each with three effects, each effect has a modifier to burn out.

Sureshot wrote:

TechnoGothic wrote:Standard Crazies Revised and Expanded. Or just detailed more.
Ultra-Crazy (SA2) OCC = A TW MDC Crazy. Reprinted. Expanded.
Symbiote-Crazy = (New) Bio-Wizardy/Symbiote enhaced with new Worm/Snake-like Symbiotes sticking out of their head.
Psynetic Crazy = Expanded into New OCC of its own.
Master-Crazy = (new) A Master Psychic who undergoes M.O.M. conversion. Alot of Pschic Powers.
Crazy Gladiator OCC.
Wired-Slinger = Reprinted for variety.

SECRET CS CRAZY SPECIAL FORCES OCC = No Visiable Implants. Included other Cybernetics such as Cyber-Armor, and a Kill-Bomb (head). They are the Ninja of the CS Forces. Martial Art Masters. The do not go insane like normal Crazies. Only picking up an Insanity at Level 5, 10, and 15. Due to Mental Conditioning Before the process. ME 20+ required.

I like this. It would make for more varitey. At the very least an update to the class since imo it really needs it.

Symbiote crazy is already done... they're called worm speakers
Interesting though TG. What would be the premise of the book? Why don't you write it?

Anyone care to write up or share their write ups for crazy variants?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Juicer implants are also cybernetic/bionic.

Eh... What part is that? I thought it was all external augmentation which would make it neither cybernetic or bionic.

"The first step in creating the chemical superman is the implementation of two tiny mega-computers called the bio-comp system. The postage stamp sized are implanted in the subject's head and/or chest."
These systems run a bunch of micro implants all over the body that monitor things and keep them adjusted so you're ramped up.
This is the reason why a juicer doesn't automatically detox if you just take away his chemicals; his body keeps producing a lot of them on its own, thanks to the bio-comp.

Sureshot wrote:

TechnoGothic wrote:Standard Crazies Revised and Expanded. Or just detailed more.
Ultra-Crazy (SA2) OCC = A TW MDC Crazy. Reprinted. Expanded.
Symbiote-Crazy = (New) Bio-Wizardy/Symbiote enhaced with new Worm/Snake-like Symbiotes sticking out of their head.
Psynetic Crazy = Expanded into New OCC of its own.
Master-Crazy = (new) A Master Psychic who undergoes M.O.M. conversion. Alot of Pschic Powers.
Crazy Gladiator OCC.
Wired-Slinger = Reprinted for variety.

SECRET CS CRAZY SPECIAL FORCES OCC = No Visiable Implants. Included other Cybernetics such as Cyber-Armor, and a Kill-Bomb (head). They are the Ninja of the CS Forces. Martial Art Masters. The do not go insane like normal Crazies. Only picking up an Insanity at Level 5, 10, and 15. Due to Mental Conditioning Before the process. ME 20+ required.

I like this. It would make for more varitey. At the very least an update to the class since imo it really needs it.

There's also the MOM implants from Psyscape. A "Crazy Psychic" OCC (or template or something) could be pieced together from those and similar tech.

The class books in the past haven't been that great. Juicer Uprising was good, but Cyber-Knights was lackluster and Mindwerks (what should have been "Crazy-bonanza") was also disappointing.

I could see some opportunities for expanding the idea of a Crazy, particularly since there are more influences available (like Dollhouse).

The timing now could be good, Triax was upgraded but Mindwerks hasn't been. A "Crazies of The World" Supplement would be interesting. I'm working on a Mindwerks Rifter Article, I'll add more ideas.

I put some of my ideas in the "Mindwerks flexing its muscles" thread, but I'm really playing around with a big idea,

Crazies could conceivably interface their implants with one another.

1) This gives them access to things like skill sharing and enhanced combat awareness
2) It makes them crazier because they're kind of in each other's heads all the time.

TechnoGothic wrote:
Off the Top of my Head for this book.

Standard Crazies Revised and Expanded. Or just detailed more.
Ultra-Crazy (SA2) OCC = A TW MDC Crazy. Reprinted. Expanded.
Symbiote-Crazy = (New) Bio-Wizardy/Symbiote enhaced with new Worm/Snake-like Symbiotes sticking out of their head.
Psynetic Crazy = Expanded into New OCC of its own.
Master-Crazy = (new) A Master Psychic who undergoes M.O.M. conversion. Alot of Pschic Powers.
Crazy Gladiator OCC.
Wired-Slinger = Reprinted for variety.

SECRET CS CRAZY SPECIAL FORCES OCC = No Visiable Implants. Included other Cybernetics such as Cyber-Armor, and a Kill-Bomb (head). They are the Ninja of the CS Forces. Martial Art Masters. The do not go insane like normal Crazies. Only picking up an Insanity at Level 5, 10, and 15. Due to Mental Conditioning Before the process. ME 20+ required.

A good list of possible variants Techno, but I was thinking more along the lines of how exactly you would present them. The Juicers had their Uprising, but how do you tie it all together for Crazies?

Maybe something along an 'inmates running the asylum' kingdom? Or a 'One Flew over the Cuckoo's nest type NPC? What's the story driving the book?

Young Freud wrote:I think what any Crazy-themed supplement needs is "why be a crazy?" There's many reasons why Juicers chose to shorten their life by undergoing the process, be a duty to protect others at the expense of themselves, a way to keep up with the competition, a "temporary" choice so they can make money, an outlet for vengeance, or a desire to be superhuman, and a dozen reasons in-between. When the Juice hits their veins, they often know what's going to happen and that they're living on borrowed time from then on.

With the Crazy, there doesn't seem to be a voluntary reason. You can't pull out the implants like you can detox as a Juicer. There's no set life expectancy, just that the Crazy gets older, he/she gets more and more vulnerable due to their growing insanties. The psychosises they get often are deterimental to themselves: I think I started realizing this when, at 5th or 6th level, a Crazy can become incontinent, meaning that you can't be Mr. Crazy Cool when you start crapping your pants. I really can't see a potential volunteer at the Cyberdocs looking at a Crazy and saying, "that guy playing with his own feces, wearing his underwear on his head, and cutting himself to get the imaginary bugs out, I want to be that guy, because look at that muscle tone". That is unless there's something wrong with them in the first place. The only way I see Crazies being made, game-world-wise, is either forced into becoming Crazies or accidentally becoming one by adding too many M.O.M. implants.

I can see potential Crazies getting so addicted to the power of the M.O.M. implants that they go over the line and becoming Crazies. I've been thinking about allowing all Mindwerks M.O.M. implants in North America for this reason, so someone can step over into Crazydom by accident, or by upgrading voluntarily, since the M.O.M. implants can't be removed without severly impacting brain function, so you might as go all the way now. And, while I can see specialized and more stable variations as the Wired Gunslinger and the Ninja Crazy being popular, for the very reason of their increased mental stability, as an alternative superhuman process compared to the Juicer, the normal Crazy is not exactly worth it.

People become Crazies for the same reason why people become Juicers (most of which you cover):
They want the power.
Some might need it to save their family or home town.
Some might want it to help them get revenge on somebody.
Some might be overcompensating for low self-esteem.

Sure, if you get the conversion, you might (will) go insane, but people are bad at odds.
Just like they think they'll live through detox, people will think that they won't get any bad insanities.
And a lot of people would prefer life over death- slowly growing insanity will still appeal to a lot of people over the Juicer "death in 5 years or less" option.
You prize sanity, and I prize sanity, but not everybody is like that.
Recreational drugs can permanently screw up your brain, and they don't even give you psychic powers and superhuman abilities. But I hear tell that some people play around with them anyway.
Not to mention that some people are crazy to begin with.
If you've already got one phobia or obsession, what's a few more?

And then there's the slinky crowd*, who aspire to be insane in the first place, just because they think it'll make the world more afraid of them than they are of it.

And then there's the even dumber reasons why people do stuff:
-To impress a girl
-To tick off one's parents
-To fit in with the cool crowd
-They were drunk

People do stupid stuff all the time in real life, and they'd do it in the game world as well.





*so named for a scene in Tango & Cash

paxmiles wrote:

Young Freud wrote:With the Crazy, there doesn't seem to be a voluntary reason.

A good portion of the Mindwerks Crazies were just abducted and changed against there will - enough to make anyone a bit crazy...

Although, i do agree. I don't think of the Crazy as an OCC. I can't really picture too many people deciding that they want to go mad when they grow up. Going crazy isn't an occupation, it's not really even a choice.

Now, I strongly think the crazy would make a decent character race. But calling it an Occupational Character Class, is just a cruel joke gone too far. Crazies as just about any RUE class (save juicer) could be pretty fair. The more exotic the OCC, the more crippling the insanities are.
-Pax

How is it significantly different from Juicer as an OCC?
Do people decide that they want to be dead when they grow up?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Juicer implants are also cybernetic/bionic.

Eh... What part is that? I thought it was all external augmentation which would make it neither cybernetic or bionic.

"The first step in creating the chemical superman is the implementation of two tiny mega-computers called the bio-comp system. The postage stamp sized are implanted in the subject's head and/or chest."
These systems run a bunch of micro implants all over the body that monitor things and keep them adjusted so you're ramped up.
This is the reason why a juicer doesn't automatically detox if you just take away his chemicals; his body keeps producing a lot of them on its own, thanks to the bio-comp.

Thanks I forgot about the bio-comp... actually I didn't remember it was an implant and just thought it was built into the harness.

maybe if the crazy started off with milder craziness. i mean, if you knew that getting MOM implants would give you an obsession about cleanliness, you'd probably think "no big deal, i can cope with that". and as long as it typically starts off with the little stuff, people are likely to just shrug it off.

you could still have mid to high level crazies get really crazy. but i mean, really, would you trade in your ability to wear socks for the ability to jump 20 feet, dodge bullets, and telekinesis? i probably would consider that a bargain. and so long as it wasn't readily apparent that in a couple of years, you're going to go from inability to wear socks to being convinced that there's a secret sock conspiracy where all lost socks are actually reporting in the information they've found out about humans, and that one day all socks are going to rise up in rebellion and strangle their human oppressors, people might assume that when you hear about crazies getting crazier over time, that just means that in 2 years they'll just have to also only wear black or something like that.

of course, since most crazies are in a dangerous profession and probably a significant number of them don't live for 2 years anyways, there could be a perception that the *really* crazy stuff is actually very rare, even if it's the inevitable result of being a crazy for only a relatively short time.

Shark_Force wrote:maybe if the crazy started off with milder craziness. i mean, if you knew that getting MOM implants would give you an obsession about cleanliness, you'd probably think "no big deal, i can cope with that". and as long as it typically starts off with the little stuff, people are likely to just shrug it off.

you could still have mid to high level crazies get really crazy. but i mean, really, would you trade in your ability to wear socks for the ability to jump 20 feet, dodge bullets, and telekinesis? i probably would consider that a bargain. and so long as it wasn't readily apparent that in a couple of years, you're going to go from inability to wear socks to being convinced that there's a secret sock conspiracy where all lost socks are actually reporting in the information they've found out about humans, and that one day all socks are going to rise up in rebellion and strangle their human oppressors, people might assume that when you hear about crazies getting crazier over time, that just means that in 2 years they'll just have to also only wear black or something like that.

of course, since most crazies are in a dangerous profession and probably a significant number of them don't live for 2 years anyways, there could be a perception that the *really* crazy stuff is actually very rare, even if it's the inevitable result of being a crazy for only a relatively short time.

Your first nurosis is a COD like obsession with doing all things a given number of times... strangely equal to the number of implants you have. Thump, thump, thump... thump, thump, thump... Do you hear the drums?! The drum beat... the drums are coming closer... and closer.

Worldbook for Crazy OCC ??

Worldbook #?? : _______________
Crazy Adventures
Crazy Invasion
Crazy Undertaking
Crazy Revolt
Crazy Assualt
Crazy Happenings
Crazy World
Crazy Revenge
Crazy Escape
Crazy Mind
Crazy Combine (a Nation that uses Crazies Super-soldiers as their Greatest Soldiers)
Mind Over Matter(s) (A Pun on the M.O.M. Implants of the Crazies.)

As for the THEME and Story of the book. Focus it on a Nation with uses Crazy Technology to the exception of everything else. This nation is seeking to expand and comes into conflict with the CS or Federation of Magic or BOTH. Which Side would PC be on?? The Nation of Crazies (as one of them), as Mercs looking for a paycheck for either side, As a members of the Invaded Nation(s) against the Crazies ?? New M.O.M. Technologies that created new types of Crazy OCCs being used by this nation.
What connection does this Nation have to various nations around the world that uses MOM tech ? Where did they get TW-Crazies from (SA2) ? Where did they Learn to focus their Crazies into not being so Insane (Japan/China2) ? What else do they hide from us at this moment ??

Shark_Force wrote:of course, since most crazies are in a dangerous profession and probably a significant number of them don't live for 2 years anyways, there could be a perception that the *really* crazy stuff is actually very rare, even if it's the inevitable result of being a crazy for only a relatively short time.

Yup.
And, really, most people on Rifts Earth aren't going to get to be very high level experience. A Crazy who doesn't see a lot of action might live 50 years and never get to level 2.
And even those that see action aren't often likely to go past level 5 or 6.

i like wat ur putting up techno i like the name Crazy Combine its a good solid name for a book u could have it as a TW or something that traveled the world looking for new ways to make crazies then came back to NA where his lab is and it soon became a town and all the towns soldiers are different crazies and it would make some sense.

paxmiles wrote:Although I will admit, I'm probably wrong that crazies are under powered.
-Pax

I fall into the "Crazies are underpowered" category too. Crazies don't seem to have anything in their bag of tricks to really make them incredibly potent. They're tough in SDC combat, but that's about it. Brain programming did a little to help that, but not a lot (and it's only available to Mindwerks guys anyway).

Given the sacrifice they make, I would think Crazy augmentation should be a bit more beneficial.

paxmiles wrote:
Crazies can't dodge bullets, can't take bullets, and aren't really that powerful on their own. Yes, they strike me as super soliders. They are faster, stronger, and tougher than humans. In an SDC world, they are super. In an MDC world, crazies are just normal humans in armor armed with guns - just trained a little better.

-Pax

Sidenote, the idea of The Crazy is about the limitless possibilities of the human brain.... which then becomes "Aaaaand that's all we could think of."

Two seasons of Dollhouse taught me that there's a lot more that could be done in that area.

Crazies can have Knobs on their Heads or Not have Knobs on their heads. Thats a Player and GM choice.
The ones with the Knobs are reconized as Crazies on Sight. Its what they want. Or they just lacked the extra money for get the No-knobs version.
The No-Knobs ones want to hide the fact they are Crazies. They like the element of surprise on their opponets' face when they turn out to Faster, Stronger, and having Psychic powers to use.

Which Version would your Prefer to be ?
Reconized as Crazy OCC
or
Hidden Crazy OCC

--------
World Book : CRAZY COMBINE
Yeah I liked that one too. Crazy Invasion was another favorite of mine.

How about a Crazy that could adjust his abilities?

Hmm... this trunk is heavier than I thought. Better pop out my dexterity implant and put in an extra strength module instead...

paxmiles wrote:

Mack wrote:How about a Crazy that could adjust his abilities?

Hmm... this trunk is heavier than I thought. Better pop out my dexterity implant and put in an extra strength module instead...

You mean having like a dial on their head instead of just knobs?

I'll admit, this one interests me.
-Pax

No, I meant replacing a knob with one that has a different effect. Imagine if a Crazy had six "slots" in his head, and a bag full of implants to choose from. He could mix and match impants to meet his immediate need. Some would boost strength but lose dexterity (or vice versa), others would grant more ISP but reduces all physical attributes, still others might grant a Super Psionic power but eliminate his Enhanced Healing... And perhaps if he leaves all his slots "empty" the insanties are greatly reduced for the time being.

Suppose he's going to arm-wrestle a Juicer, so he puts in as many Strength impants as possible.
Next, suppose he's going to walk a tight rope between two buildings, so he replaces the Strength implants with Dexterity ones.

This could also lead to different "quality" implants being available on the market. Say a Chipwell impant grants a +2 to strength, but a Wilk's model grants a +6. Now the Crazy will always be on the hunt to collect the most powerful ones. And, of course, GM's could create some one-of-a-kind specials as a campaign reward.

Mack wrote:

paxmiles wrote:

Mack wrote:How about a Crazy that could adjust his abilities?

Hmm... this trunk is heavier than I thought. Better pop out my dexterity implant and put in an extra strength module instead...

You mean having like a dial on their head instead of just knobs?

I'll admit, this one interests me.
-Pax

No, I meant replacing a knob with one that has a different effect. Imagine if a Crazy had six "slots" in his head, and a bag full of implants to choose from. He could mix and match impants to meet his immediate need. Some would boost strength but lose dexterity (or vice versa), others would grant more ISP but reduces all physical attributes, still others might grant a Super Psionic power but eliminate his Enhanced Healing... And perhaps if he leaves all his slots "empty" the insanties are greatly reduced for the time being.

Suppose he's going to arm-wrestle a Juicer, so he puts in as many Strength impants as possible.
Next, suppose he's going to walk a tight rope between two buildings, so he replaces the Strength implants with Dexterity ones.

This could also lead to different "quality" implants being available on the market. Say a Chipwell impant grants a +2 to strength, but a Wilk's model grants a +6. Now the Crazy will always be on the hunt to collect the most powerful ones. And, of course, GM's could create some one-of-a-kind specials as a campaign reward.

Sounds a lot like chipped skills and other modification chips that pop up in cyberpunk here or there.
It's a good idea, but the knobs in a Crazy's head don't actually DO anything; the implants are internal and small.
Of course, this could be a way to make the knobs do something.
Or it could use a different interface, like a headjack, to interface with the MOM computer.

The Juicer Psychosis Table in JU would fit Crazies perfect for most of their insanities.
Instead of gaining NEW insanities how about sometimes a new Insanity replaces an Older insanity with a upgrade version of their old insanity.

Example.
(1)Ordinary Laws are for Ordinary People. This is a great Insanity for a Crazy to get First. As they start to think of themselves as Superior to normal people.
(2) Superhuman Syndrome. This can replace the Ordinary Laws at some point. Now the Crazy sees himself has a Superhuman and above the law.
(3) New Species. The Crazy now thinks of himself as Superior, a Superhuman, and the begining of a new Species from people in general. Yeah he is starting to get truely insane in his thinking and his abilities.
(4) New GOD. Ok the Crazy believes now he as bypassed Humans completely. Not only is he above laws, superhuman, new Species, now ... he believes he is a God level Being.

Sound Good ?? as an Example ??

that sounds good techno ive been thinking of if its a town where would this town be? i cant think of any place and its bugging the hell out of me.

Glad to se my topic is generating so much interest. Hopefully enough for PB to do a updated book on Crazies.

vashshadow wrote:that sounds good techno ive been thinking of if its a town where would this town be? i cant think of any place and its bugging the hell out of me.

The former site of Los Angeles (aka L.A.) would be a good spot to be honest.

Gives the terms Road Rage and going Postal new meanings.

IMO

The crazy occ had a lot of potential but its stats didn't reflect that. When you compared it to the other warrior occ's in RMB it was the overlooked brother

Not a powerhouse like the cyborg, not a warrior like a juicer, not an all rounder like a cyberknight. Doesn't have the assets behind it of the CS occ's, not even a specialist like the wilderness scout or the other non warrior occ's in RMB

On top of that the occ's weakness does actually hinder the player character, especially at high levels and if the GM starts enforcing the player rp's the insanities his character has.

The weaknesses of the other occ's in RMB can be off set by a creative player fairly easily or simply ignored in game terms. juicer dying in seven years - most campaigns don't last that long, either character dies within a few months of rp'ing, or players start different campaigns well before the juicer's life expectancy weakness comes into question.

Ck's (SOT book 4), Juicers (JU), even cyborgs (WofR,Bionics SB) have been upgraded with their own books and I think it’s time for the crazy to get a similar treatment.

For some reason we've always treated the mindwerks occ's separate to the crazy occ. Those occ's are beholden to mindwerks and the crazy to an extent is independent

The crazy insanities/side effects need to be "RIFTS" Specific IMO. I think the copy/paste method in RMB didn't help, too many insanities that just didn’t make much sense in the rifts setting

yes i want a crazy thats one minute like the gental giant the next ripping his enemys throat out laughing and not fearing dead notting about him self or his body just to rip apart his enemy then when there dead just go back to being nice and normal that wat i want for a crazy

DBX wrote:IMO

The crazy occ had a lot of potential but its stats didn't reflect that. When you compared it to the other warrior occ's in RMB it was the overlooked brother

Not a powerhouse like the cyborg, not a warrior like a juicer, not an all rounder like a cyberknight. Doesn't have the assets behind it of the CS occ's, not even a specialist like the wilderness scout or the other non warrior occ's in RMB

On top of that the occ's weakness does actually hinder the player character, especially at high levels and if the GM starts enforcing the player rp's the insanities his character has.

The weaknesses of the other occ's in RMB can be off set by a creative player fairly easily or simply ignored in game terms. juicer dying in seven years - most campaigns don't last that long, either character dies within a few months of rp'ing, or players start different campaigns well before the juicer's life expectancy weakness comes into question.

Ck's (SOT book 4), Juicers (JU), even cyborgs (WofR,Bionics SB) have been upgraded with their own books and I think it’s time for the crazy to get a similar treatment.

For some reason we've always treated the mindwerks occ's separate to the crazy occ. Those occ's are beholden to mindwerks and the crazy to an extent is independent

The crazy insanities/side effects need to be "RIFTS" Specific IMO. I think the copy/paste method in RMB didn't help, too many insanities that just didn’t make much sense in the rifts setting

I'd say that they're a pretty good all-rounder, actually.
They're not as fast or strong as a juicer, but they're faster and stronger than cyber-knights.
They've got better senses than a juicer.
They don't DIE, like a juicer does.
They have a decent variety of psionic powers.
They have a pretty good range of skills, too.

I can't think of any one thing that they're best at, but the variety of their powers makes them pretty darned versatile.

Killer Cyborg wrote:They don't DIE, like a juicer does.

As a contrast between Crazy and Juicer conversion, it's not nearly as meaningful as the post seems to imply. Anyone with any desire for longevity would have no interest in either.

There are also many (myself included) who if required to choose one or the other, would value five years of chemically enhanced sanity more than a longer period of mental degeneration. Which is perhaps the crux of the problem with M.O.M. as Palladium presents it. The downsides are no less than horrific, but the abilities granted aren't that great.

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:They don't DIE, like a juicer does.

As a contrast between Crazy and Juicer conversion, it's not nearly as meaningful as the post seems to imply. Anyone with any desire for longevity would have no interest in either.

There are also many (myself included) who if required to choose one or the other, would value five years of chemically enhanced sanity more than a longer period of mental degeneration. Which is perhaps the crux of the problem with M.O.M. as Palladium presents it. The downsides are no less than horrific, but the abilities granted aren't that great.

Juicer: I'm faster than you, stronger than you, and tougher than you!
Crazy: I know. And that sucks for me and all, but can you do this?
(levitates Juicer into ceiling fan)

Never underestimate the advantage that psionics can give your character over a non-psionic. They're more limited than magic, but they can come in quite handy. Telepathy, for example, is incredibly powerful- you get to read somebody's mind, and they don't even get a save unless they know that you're doing it and actively try to block you.
In game terms, this doesn't give any bonuses or anything, but in any encounter where strategy is important, it can be a deciding factor in the outcome.
The ability to read minds, talk to dead people, absorb electronically stored information, protect yourself from psychic attack, spy on people with Remote Viewing, see invisible opponents, etc. etc. etc. all adds up IMO to balance out a lot of the advantages the Juicers get.
Besides, if Crazies could go toe-to-toe with a Juicer physically and have even odds of winning, then people would be complaining that Juicers should be more powerful.

But I always did think that Crazies should get Auto-Dodge. Especially now that any schmuck with HTH Commando can pick it up.
Also, how bad IS that insanity that Crazies get?
At first level, you're perfectly sane (in theory)

At second, you get one phobia. This could be very bad, but it could also be effectively unimportant. Never stopped B.A. Baracus from being a badass.

At third level, you get an Affective Disorder, but look at that for a bit:
-You could have Mania, which gives some skill penalties but also gives some combat bonuses.
-You could end up bipolar (like a large percentage of the population today). Then again, when you're manic, this insanity only makes you stronger.
-You could end up frightened by loud noises, which could make you lose initiative and one attack per melee every time there's a loud noise. Cybernetic sound filters could help with that, though.
-You could end up with a death wish. Then again, that's normal for most PCs I've seen.
-Could end up hating bugs. Which might make you make some strange decisions, but you also get Xiticix Lore at 60% (+4%/level).
-Autonomic Reaction gives a strike penalty for ranged weapons, and -15% on any skill that requires a steady hand. That sucks, but not necessarily too much. Grab a melee weapon, and start learning different skills.
-Trauma Induced Migraines gives some not-too-crippling penalties under certain circumstances.
-Outraged By Acts of Violence gives you combat bonuses. Just make sure nobody in your party starts the fight, and this isn't a problem.
-Hates music or musicians. Not likely to be a huge deal. Again, sound dampers might help in certain circumstances, and maybe a walkman with recordings of motivational speeches or something.
-Intimidated by spoke language when under pressure (etc). Not good, but not horrible.
-Hysterical Blindness. Yeah.. this one just sucks. But there's less only a 5% chance that you'll get this one.

Fourth Level brings a Random Crazy Insanity:
Only three options here:
-Frenzy (You're a berserker, just like Wolverine!)
-Power By Association (Not that crippling)
-Multiple Personalities (Might be helpful, depending. Or irrelevant. Not necessarily that bad.)

Don't get me wrong: I fully admit that a Crazy could well end up a useless, drooling idiot in short order.
(Just like a Juicer could end up dead in 1 year instead of 5.)

But let's just say a Crazy gets lucky with his insanities:
At 5th level, he could have:
-A phobia of public speaking
-Death Wish
-Frenzy: Intense Pain

Unless he has to give a speech in public, or somehow gets knocked down to <1/2 hp without dying, this guy's pretty much normal.
(All Death Wish really does is add character)

Or let's say he gets REALLY lucky:
At 5th level, he could have:
-Phobia of public speaking (or clowns, or Emperor Prosek and family, or whatever).
-Mania (+1 initiative and +1 dodge, though there are skill penalties)
-Multiple Personality: The Wildman

The phobia still sucks, IF it ever comes up.
And some of the penalties suck as well.

BUT at his peak, the character will have:
+1 attack
+2 strike
+2 parry
+2 dodge
+5 roll with impact
+10' to leaps/jumps
+30 SDC
+30% to speed
+1d6 damage with melee weapons (arguable applies to MD weapons)
+20% on climbing, swimming, and acrobatics

All on top of his normal bonuses.

Beyond 5th level (and most people in Rifts Earth won't get this high), things get worse... but they still don't have to be too bad. If your character is a mercenary who becomes Obsessed with combat, that's no big deal.
If he develops a neurosis about safety/security, that can waste time, but in Rifts it can save lives.
Even the 12th level psychosis isn't necessarily that bad, and sometimes won't really matter at all (or will balance out like the manic depressive roll).

Believe me: I don't like mental degradation. I want to NEVER go insane.
Then again, I already have ADD and Depression, and I didn't even get any superhuman powers in the bargain.
Just a minor in Philosophy.
And I'd rather be alive with a couple mental issues than dead.
Or even a half-dozen issues, if they didn't screw me up TOO badly.
But heck, even Monk manages to get along alright.

And then there's the Juicers.
No automatic insanities, but if go to a cheap cho-shop and/or are unlucky, you can end up with a Psychosis at first level.
Or with headaches, memory loss, or other symptoms just as bad as some of the Crazy's insanities.
And statistically speaking, "some 15-25% of all Juicers develop mental or emotional disorders at some point in their lives. The chance of insanity increases over the years, to the point that almost a fourth of all Juicers in their last months are mentally ill." (JU, 14)
And how sane can you really be when you're pumped full of stimulants, steroids, and other chemicals 24/7?

Not to mention all the ways a botched conversion can mess you up physically.

Overall, I think they're pretty well balanced against each other.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Supergyro wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:They don't DIE, like a juicer does.

As a contrast between Crazy and Juicer conversion, it's not nearly as meaningful as the post seems to imply. Anyone with any desire for longevity would have no interest in either.

There are also many (myself included) who if required to choose one or the other, would value five years of chemically enhanced sanity more than a longer period of mental degeneration. Which is perhaps the crux of the problem with M.O.M. as Palladium presents it. The downsides are no less than horrific, but the abilities granted aren't that great.

Never underestimate the advantage that psionics can give your character over a non-psionic.

The psionic comparison was not the comparison I described as invalid. The 'but juicers die' comparison however, remains invalid (or at least nowhere near as valid as one would initially think).

Supergyro wrote:The 'but juicers die' comparison however, remains invalid (or at least nowhere near as valid as one would initially think).

If you want to keep that stance after reading my last post, that's cool.
We're just going to disagree on this one.

I say it ultimately comes down to personality: some people will choose almost certain death, some will choose almost certain insanity.
Either way you go, you get a bit of both anyway.

I like the idea Mindwerks Plague and it could also be title for the sourcebook paxmiles. Now if only we could get a freelancer to write it up. Agree that the Mindwerk OCCS do require a major rewrite to bring them up to current rules.

Some thing that could also work would be having a player choose a theme for the insanities and then select based on that theme. The mind cracks as the crazy goes up in level, but follows a certain path based on the individual. Examples, the looney-toon concept, Saturaday morning super-hero, pulp noir, etc. Because of the implants, the mind grabs hold of a concept and it goes from there.

paxmiles wrote:

Sureshot wrote:I like the idea Mindwerks Plague and it could also be title for the sourcebook paxmiles. Now if only we could get a freelancer to write it up. Agree that the Mindwerk OCCS do require a major rewrite to bring them up to current rules.

Any clue what the requirements are to be a RIFTS freelancer? I'd be interested in writing this book.
-Pax

[snip]

pretty sure the requirements are "write up a basic concept of your book, include some sample writing, and pitch the idea at the palladium staff (specifically kevin, since i get the feeling he wouldn't really grasp the concept of delegation if it came up and bit him in the face). then they have to agree.

you may have better luck starting off with something smaller... writing for rifter articles, etc, for example.

Supergyro wrote:

paxmiles wrote:
Crazies can't dodge bullets, can't take bullets, and aren't really that powerful on their own. Yes, they strike me as super soliders. They are faster, stronger, and tougher than humans. In an SDC world, they are super. In an MDC world, crazies are just normal humans in armor armed with guns - just trained a little better.

-Pax

Sidenote, the idea of The Crazy is about the limitless possibilities of the human brain.... which then becomes "Aaaaand that's all we could think of."

Two seasons of Dollhouse taught me that there's a lot more that could be done in that area.

Danger wrote:

Supergyro wrote:Sidenote, the idea of The Crazy is about the limitless possibilities of the human brain.... which then becomes "Aaaaand that's all we could think of."

Two seasons of Dollhouse taught me that there's a lot more that could be done in that area.

Or, for that matter, a half season of Firefly.

just thought i'd mention, the bog-standard crazy actually does gain auto-dodge. it's just not in the place you'd think to look for it... check under their improved senses entry.

ok, i get the part about no dodge vs surprise. but how do you get the impression autododge doesn't work against ranged attacks? it's just a dodge, minus the part where you use an action. you can do a regular dodge against bullets. so why not an autododge?