the same yet different. Rifts Dimension book Earth

[DBX]

This possibly has been discussed before and gamers have probably developed an alternate Rifts Earth.

Would people like to see a dimension book on another rifts earth.

if so what would you like to be like. what SUBTLE changes would you like to see, that says you are on the Rifts Earth (we know and love/hate), yet a player going there will know soemthing isn't quite right.


or would you go for wholesale changes? what type of changes do you think will improve on the current rifts earth

[Jorel]

Excuse me while I quote myself from yesterday,

I would like to see a Rifts book about an alternate Aftermath for 110 PA. You know what I'm talkin bout Willis? One where Tolkeen wins, Holmes dies (according to the books at the hands of the Xits), the Coalition limps home and decides to keep their DB hatin anti-magic ways to themselves. Then maybe Free Quebec and Tolkeen work together with smaller kingdoms and other city-states like Lazlo to deal with the Xiticix hoards. Not a major world overhaul, just a few minor differences in the immediate past.

[SkyeFyre]

No, not really. I can make changes all I want, I don't need a book to give me alternate versions of already existing material. What I want is completely new material primarily in the form of dimension books as Rifts Earth is getting rather crowded and is far from the post-apocalyptic world it originated as.

Oh an in reference to Tolkeen winning against the CS. I wouldn't like that scenario. The more conflict you put into a setting the more options for adventure you get. At least that's my opinion.

[Preacher]

I have an alternate Earth where No Human Nations ever survived or came into being. Also the Splugorth team that discovered Atlantis never happened so Rifts Earth is literally overrun with inhuman monsters and dbees about 100 times more so than on the Rifts Earth we all know and love.
Almost no civilization just monsters and demons in a constant savage struggle to survive. Some bands of nomadic MDC warrior races are the closest to civilization that exist. No Chi Town, No Triax No Splynncryth's Atlantis.

I created it as a Constant fight for survival unrelenting and brutal. On this Monster Infested Rifts if you lower your guard for a second then you will become food for some beast and you can't find any walled city for even an moments respite.

[Traska]

I'd like to see a Rifter with about a dozen alternate Rifts Earths described (but not in tremendous detail, just enough that if you're interested, you can run with it).

[Kalidor]

I think one of the rifts that cycle through the Devil's Gate is either an alternate or future Earth.

[Preacher]

I have an alternate Earth where No Human Nations ever survived or came into being. Also the Splugorth team that discovered Atlantis never happened so Rifts Earth is literally overrun with inhuman monsters and dbees about 100 times more so than on the Rifts Earth we all know and love.
Almost no civilization just monsters and demons in a constant savage struggle to survive. Some bands of nomadic MDC warrior races are the closest to civilization that exist. No Chi Town, No Triax No Splynncryth's Atlantis.

I created it as a Constant fight for survival unrelenting and brutal. On this Monster Infested Rifts if you lower your guard for a second then you will become food for some beast and you can't find any walled city for even an moments respite.

Were your PCs all based on magic, psionics, and natural powers? This scenario seems like it would not allow for any tech-based characters, because there'd be no place to get fuel, repairs, or ammunition.

The Characters were a mix of Supers and Mages with only one Tech based guy. The NPC who actually got them there was a Demigod Shifter. They spent about a day there in game time during which they all came close to death till the Shifter recovered enough to get them the heck out of there. The attacks from monsters, demons and huge beast was nearly constant and even though the group was powerful and capable the unrelenting attacks wore them down pretty quick.

[Dr Megaverse]

For example: One of my NPC enemies consists of a slightly different version of the [CS] spider skull walker that has been modified for life support of 5 Ecto Traveler OCCs (mind werks).

It makes for a pretty challenging encounter because the Ecto travelers can astral project to attack other NPC factions (or the party) from a very remote location, while the spider skull can exist in pretty remote locations...Underwater, a mountain, etc.
-Pax

This made me grin an evil grin.

Personally I've always liked Tolkeen and the Federation of Magic throwing it in with each other in the last throes of their fight against the CS and actually winning. None of this General Holmes foolishness. The Xiticix eat that guy for lunch and in the end Lazlo comes riding in to stop the Tolkeenites before they slaughter all of Chi-Town and American peace breaks out.....so now it's off to Europe!

[Jorel]

The above post sounds pretty close to my earlier sentiments.

Excuse me while I quote myself from yesterday,

I would like to see a Rifts book about an alternate Aftermath for 110 PA. You know what I'm talkin bout Willis? One where Tolkeen wins, Holmes dies (according to the books at the hands of the Xits), the Coalition limps home and decides to keep their DB hatin anti-magic ways to themselves. Then maybe Free Quebec and Tolkeen work together with smaller kingdoms and other city-states like Lazlo to deal with the Xiticix hoards. Not a major world overhaul, just a few minor differences in the immediate past.

I think it would be even better to have the opening story be about a small Tolkeen group that was fleeing the Final Siege after Holmes appearance. They would go back to before the war started and deliver the game changing intelligence to King Creed. Then they would act as his oracle, hiding like that to avoid encountering their alternate selves. When the time was right they would have Creed recreate the circumstances that allowed them to travel back in time. They would then send their alternate selves back in time with said intelligence to ensure that particular future's continued existence. Then we could explore this new future Rifts: Aftermath in the year 1 PPA (110 PA).

[Zer0 Kay]

I've been toying with an alternate dimension that is interesting yet at the same time a commentary on PBs reluctance to do a Rifts Middle East. It's Called "Rifts: Origins" and is essentially imaginings on how the world would be different if it wasn't created by YHWH. So there was a tower of Babel and it still stands and is currently a space elevator. All mankind speaks the same language with slight variations and the odd "secret" language. Each pantheon does exist and their deities actually created the area in which they are from. Each group has a specialty in tech and/or magic. No Hebrews, no Persians, no Christian, Jewish, or Islamic religions. The only countries are:
• Ægypt (Africa) - FTL Drives/Power Armor
• Anadarko (North America) - Anti-Gravity/Spirit Magic
• Asgard (Norway) - Techno Wizardry (Gate Tech)
• Avalon (U.K.) - Temporal Magic (Cloaking)
• Aztlán (South America) - Line Magic/Juicers
• Babylon (Middle East) - Summoning Magic/Space Elevator
• Macedonia (Southern Europe) - Invocation Magic/MOM
• Pacifica (South Pacific Islands, including Australia) - Aquatech/Ocean Magic
• Russ (Russia) - Bio-Wizardry/Bionics
• Sopotica (Antarctica) – Elemental Magic (Terraforming)
• Yamato (Japan) - Mecha/Rune Magic
• Zhongguo (China) - Martial Arts/Stone Magic

So... yeah I prefer a drastic overhaul especially if it is to have a book dedicated to it otherwise it could just be a % roll chart for what is different but you can't just put your finger on it. Or something more funny like the episode of family guy where Stewie and Brian go through all those alternate dimensions... especially the one with portrates that make you think your going to dimensions you've already visited dimension.

[Zer0 Kay]

The above post sounds pretty close to my earlier sentiments.

Excuse me while I quote myself from yesterday,

I would like to see a Rifts book about an alternate Aftermath for 110 PA. You know what I'm talkin bout Willis? One where Tolkeen wins, Holmes dies (according to the books at the hands of the Xits), the Coalition limps home and decides to keep their DB hatin anti-magic ways to themselves. Then maybe Free Quebec and Tolkeen work together with smaller kingdoms and other city-states like Lazlo to deal with the Xiticix hoards. Not a major world overhaul, just a few minor differences in the immediate past.

I think it would be even better to have the opening story be about a small Tolkeen group that was fleeing the Final Siege after Holmes appearance. They would go back to before the war started and deliver the game changing intelligence to King Creed. Then they would act as his oracle, hiding like that to avoid encountering their alternate selves. When the time was right they would have Creed recreate the circumstances that allowed them to travel back in time. They would then send their alternate selves back in time with said intelligence to ensure that particular future's continued existence. Then we could explore this new future Rifts: Aftermath in the year 1 PPA (110 PA).

The jump back in time with their present dimension's original selves isn't necessary as they've created an alternate dimension which is self sustaining. If it wasn't then those native selves would be the same as themselves so meeting themselves would cause massive destruction. The Tolkeenites would probably give the new callendar some better name than Post PA. Something Latiney... yup just used Latin as an adjective.

[The Galactus Kid]

I have heard of a Coalition of Magic Idea before, and I would love to see the original Chaos Earth story. I think alternate dimensions of concurrent timelines would be awesome.

[Zer0 Kay]

I have heard of a Coalition of Magic Idea before, and I would love to see the original Chaos Earth story. I think alternate dimensions of concurrent timelines would be awesome.

Um... its kind of funny when an author says they wish they could see it... why don't you take it up as your next project?

[Zer0 Kay]

How about a Rifts Earth where the confrontation between the CS and the Federation of Magic never erupted. The CS maintained magic users in its armies and cities and the joyous republic they started building budded into a Utopian Rifts Earth... How bizarre would it be to play in a world where the vast majority of people see the CS as heroes? Heck, there would be world peace as the CS and its magical armies would march across Europe disposing of the Gargoyle threat and yada yada yada... I suppose it would only really be cool if you deposited characters from Rifts Earth proper into it. I think it'd be very Twilight Zone.....

The armies would be both tech and magic. Heck can you imagine one of the damn Firestorms with improved invisibility on it or a small platoon of CS troops traveling south they come to a town and inform the vampires that they know where they are. Its night time so all the vamps come crawling out of there holes to get the stupid humans who think they can take them with such a small group. The vamps are closing then are stopped at an invisible wall... in unison a line of vamps seems to evaporate in all directions and the forms of several glitterboys appear surrounding the small CS group the vamps quickly compose themselves and ready themselves to charge but the ground seems to come to life as thousands of skelebots appear and jump the vamps slicing and dicing there way. That is a cool idea yoink. Free Quebec would still be the same so would likely be either enemies of the CS or just isolationist. Triax would probably still ally with the CS. I wonder if ARCHIE would determine that it was then safe to reawaken the NEMA troops, I wonder if the Republicans would seek out the CS? You'd still have the endless hordes of monsters and demons. Be funny if that Earth was the B5 (Last Best Hope) for ending the minion wars.

[Zer0 Kay]

How about a Rifts Earth where the confrontation between the CS and the Federation of Magic never erupted. The CS maintained magic users in its armies and cities and the joyous republic they started building budded into a Utopian Rifts Earth... How bizarre would it be to play in a world where the vast majority of people see the CS as heroes? Heck, there would be world peace as the CS and its magical armies would march across Europe disposing of the Gargoyle threat and yada yada yada... I suppose it would only really be cool if you deposited characters from Rifts Earth proper into it. I think it'd be very Twilight Zone.....

The armies would be both tech and magic. Heck can you imagine one of the damn Firestorms with improved invisibility on it or a small platoon of CS troops traveling south they come to a town and inform the vampires that they know where they are. Its night time so all the vamps come crawling out of there holes to get the stupid humans who think they can take them with such a small group. The vamps are closing then are stopped at an invisible wall... in unison a line of vamps seems to evaporate in all directions and the forms of several glitterboys appear surrounding the small CS group the vamps quickly compose themselves and ready themselves to charge but the ground seems to come to life as thousands of skelebots appear and jump the vamps slicing and dicing there way. That is a cool idea yoink. Free Quebec would still be the same so would likely be either enemies of the CS or just isolationist. Triax would probably still ally with the CS. I wonder if ARCHIE would determine that it was then safe to reawaken the NEMA troops, I wonder if the Republicans would seek out the CS? You'd still have the endless hordes of monsters and demons. Be funny if that Earth was the B5 (Last Best Hope) for ending the minion wars.

Yeah but would the Republicans team up with this alternate CS or think them crazy for using the very mystical energy that destroyed their world?

I don't know there humans. Would humans try to use nuclear energy for power, the very same energy that nearly blasted their world assunder? Would humans continue to use fossil fuels even though it has been proven time and again to be too easy to let slip and destroy entire ecosystems and economies? Yes I think they would side with a magic using side as long as they also had their ideals. They will be able to see that though there are risks in magic there are far greater benifits more than nuclear power, more than the versatility of oil.

[DBX]

on another Earth, there are no dog boy mutant animals and no psistalkers

how different would CS be and N.America

[Jay05]

W/O their psychic alarm system against magic/psi, the Coalition would not last long. It's the only thing that's really saved them. And yeah, I know, tech tech tech, but adult or anient dragons,or most greater deamons en masse would in time over run them.

[Colt47]

Excuse me while I quote myself from yesterday,

I would like to see a Rifts book about an alternate Aftermath for 110 PA. You know what I'm talkin bout Willis? One where Tolkeen wins, Holmes dies (according to the books at the hands of the Xits), the Coalition limps home and decides to keep their DB hatin anti-magic ways to themselves. Then maybe Free Quebec and Tolkeen work together with smaller kingdoms and other city-states like Lazlo to deal with the Xiticix hoards. Not a major world overhaul, just a few minor differences in the immediate past.

The thing is, I'm not angry that the CS won against Tolkien in the books, but at the fact that KS appears to think that the CS is still strong enough to even defend itself after running a full on war with another nation that drew so many players into it. The CS really did lose the fight, because even though they defeated Tolkien their military forces would be a shattered husk of what it once was. Also, look at all the other forces they are supposedly fighting in Rifts: They got the Atlantean forces coming from the east, Xiticix in the North, and ARCHIE 7 picking off stragglers like a slasher at a frat party. This isn't even going into having to patrol their own backyard for demons, dangerous monsters, Dunscons vengeful spell casters, etc.

[Tiree]

I had a player who could not wrap his head around the Coalition as being overall 'Good' just that the leaders were evil. So I had Karl Prosek assassinated, and Joe came into being. He was a master PR Guy and came up with the new Coalition: A Kinder and Gentler Coalition.

It basically was the same old Coalition, but with a better PR firm. Handwavium at work - I stated that even Tolkien and Lazlo actually liked the new Coalition. There were of course other things going on. And a secret group of Coalition warriors were still doing the same old thing.

[Zer0 Kay]

How about a Rifts Earth where the confrontation between the CS and the Federation of Magic never erupted. The CS maintained magic users in its armies and cities and the joyous republic they started building budded into a Utopian Rifts Earth... How bizarre would it be to play in a world where the vast majority of people see the CS as heroes? Heck, there would be world peace as the CS and its magical armies would march across Europe disposing of the Gargoyle threat and yada yada yada... I suppose it would only really be cool if you deposited characters from Rifts Earth proper into it. I think it'd be very Twilight Zone.....

The armies would be both tech and magic. Heck can you imagine one of the damn Firestorms with improved invisibility on it or a small platoon of CS troops traveling south they come to a town and inform the vampires that they know where they are. Its night time so all the vamps come crawling out of there holes to get the stupid humans who think they can take them with such a small group. The vamps are closing then are stopped at an invisible wall... in unison a line of vamps seems to evaporate in all directions and the forms of several glitterboys appear surrounding the small CS group the vamps quickly compose themselves and ready themselves to charge but the ground seems to come to life as thousands of skelebots appear and jump the vamps slicing and dicing there way. That is a cool idea yoink. Free Quebec would still be the same so would likely be either enemies of the CS or just isolationist. Triax would probably still ally with the CS. I wonder if ARCHIE would determine that it was then safe to reawaken the NEMA troops, I wonder if the Republicans would seek out the CS? You'd still have the endless hordes of monsters and demons. Be funny if that Earth was the B5 (Last Best Hope) for ending the minion wars.

Yeah but would the Republicans team up with this alternate CS or think them crazy for using the very mystical energy that destroyed their world?

I don't know there humans. Would humans try to use nuclear energy for power, the very same energy that nearly blasted their world assunder? Would humans continue to use fossil fuels even though it has been proven time and again to be too easy to let slip and destroy entire ecosystems and economies? Yes I think they would side with a magic using side as long as they also had their ideals. They will be able to see that though there are risks in magic there are far greater benifits more than nuclear power, more than the versatility of oil.

Good point!

Thanks, I just thought it was kind of funny. Humans mess around with the very stuff that will destroy us because it is convenient and the convenience is the ONLY pay off when we could work a little harder and cast off the greed of certain industries to find an alternative that has larger payoffs and few detractions.

[Zer0 Kay]

I had a player who could not wrap his head around the Coalition as being overall 'Good' just that the leaders were evil. So I had Karl Prosek assassinated, and Joe came into being. He was a master PR Guy and came up with the new Coalition: A Kinder and Gentler Coalition.

It basically was the same old Coalition, but with a better PR firm. Handwavium at work - I stated that even Tolkien and Lazlo actually liked the new Coalition. There were of course other things going on. And a secret group of Coalition warriors were still doing the same old thing.

Um... The CS aren't generally good. They are generally fearfull sheep that cow to the propaganda and fear mongering of those feeding them the propaganda causing the masses to act at best Selfish. Any truely principled citizen with courage would more than likely choose to leave the safety of the city. So the principled person full of fear would eventually turn at a minimum to a selfish alignment. Chi-Town is the largest circle of alignment change.

[Zer0 Kay]

I had a player who could not wrap his head around the Coalition as being overall 'Good' just that the leaders were evil. So I had Karl Prosek assassinated, and Joe came into being. He was a master PR Guy and came up with the new Coalition: A Kinder and Gentler Coalition.

It basically was the same old Coalition, but with a better PR firm. Handwavium at work - I stated that even Tolkien and Lazlo actually liked the new Coalition. There were of course other things going on. And a secret group of Coalition warriors were still doing the same old thing.

Um... The CS aren't generally good. They are generally fearfull sheep that cow to the propaganda and fear mongering of those feeding them the propaganda causing the masses to act at best Selfish. Any truely principled citizen with courage would more than likely choose to leave the safety of the city. So the principled person full of fear would eventually turn at a minimum to a selfish alignment. Chi-Town is the largest circle of alignment change.

IDK about that. You can be principled and believe all the propaganda. Personal belief doesn't necessarily reflect alignment.

Really? Funny I thought alignment was supposed to be your personal beliefs.

Principled characters will . . .
1. Always keep his word. (Doesn't say only to humans or only to those who deserve it)
2. Avoid lies. (Doesn't say...)
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe. (Again)
4. Never harm an innocent. (May be twisted so that all D-bees aren't innocent)
5. Never torture for any reason. (Not even a D-bee)
6. Never kill for pleasure. (Here too)
7. Always help others. (Dang... can't specify that D-bees aren't others)
8. Work well in a group. (EVEN if there are D-Bees)
9. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor. (Dang D-Bee Lawmen! Dang D-bee cyberknights)
10. Never betrays a friend. (Better make sure none are D-Bees because if you start you can't stop)
11. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means
no breaking and entry, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc. (Hmm... maybe nope just the presence of D-Bees doesn't make it desperate or a Principled character would be required to Nuke the Burbs)
Gee ya know all of those sound like personal beliefs.
A Principled person may believe all the propaganda but they aren't going to go all "The only good D-bee, is a dead D-bee." They aren't going to become fearfull speciest. They won't become heroes of the Coalition running through town and gunning down D-bee bums because they're D-bees. They would follow the law and turn them in and would probably think poorly of the CS if they see them come down and summarily execute the bum or beat him and cary him off.

[Tiree]

I had a player who could not wrap his head around the Coalition as being overall 'Good' just that the leaders were evil. So I had Karl Prosek assassinated, and Joe came into being. He was a master PR Guy and came up with the new Coalition: A Kinder and Gentler Coalition.

It basically was the same old Coalition, but with a better PR firm. Handwavium at work - I stated that even Tolkien and Lazlo actually liked the new Coalition. There were of course other things going on. And a secret group of Coalition warriors were still doing the same old thing.

Um... The CS aren't generally good. They are generally fearfull sheep that cow to the propaganda and fear mongering of those feeding them the propaganda causing the masses to act at best Selfish. Any truely principled citizen with courage would more than likely choose to leave the safety of the city. So the principled person full of fear would eventually turn at a minimum to a selfish alignment. Chi-Town is the largest circle of alignment change.

IDK about that. You can be principled and believe all the propaganda. Personal belief doesn't necessarily reflect alignment.

Really? Funny I thought alignment was supposed to be your personal beliefs.

Principled characters will . . .
1. Always keep his word. (Doesn't say only to humans or only to those who deserve it)
2. Avoid lies. (Doesn't say...)
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe. (Again)
4. Never harm an innocent. (May be twisted so that all D-bees aren't innocent)
5. Never torture for any reason. (Not even a D-bee)
6. Never kill for pleasure. (Here too)
7. Always help others. (Dang... can't specify that D-bees aren't others)
8. Work well in a group. (EVEN if there are D-Bees)
9. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor. (Dang D-Bee Lawmen! Dang D-bee cyberknights)
10. Never betrays a friend. (Better make sure none are D-Bees because if you start you can't stop)
11. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means
no breaking and entry, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc. (Hmm... maybe nope just the presence of D-Bees doesn't make it desperate or a Principled character would be required to Nuke the Burbs)
Gee ya know all of those sound like personal beliefs.
A Principled person may believe all the propaganda but they aren't going to go all "The only good D-bee, is a dead D-bee." They aren't going to become fearfull speciest. They won't become heroes of the Coalition running through town and gunning down D-bee bums because they're D-bees. They would follow the law and turn them in and would probably think poorly of the CS if they see them come down and summarily execute the bum or beat him and cary him off.

You are putting your own personal bias into it. Which is what my friend was doing also. It specifically states in the book that the vast majority of the citizens of the Coalition are good people. They just don't see the evil and corruption of the higher ups.

They don't see the D-Bee as a person, they see a D-Bee as a grotesque monster who has come to this world in order to destroy humanity. They probably wouldn't think anything of a Human looking DBee - until they found out. Then they would have trouble with it. But you have a Coalition Citizen look at a Grackletooth and they are more than likely shoot first and ask questions later. Why? Because it is an inhuman being. Because they have been trained that anything that isn't human is going to eat them.

Now - Yes, I see that the vast majority of the Coalition Citizens are sheep. I see them blinded by faith that the people in charge are doing what is right.

So lets break it down again:

Principled characters will . . .
1. Always keep his word. - When you don't talk to a D-Bee, no need to.
2. Avoid lies. - Same as above
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe. - Are D-Bee's truly unarmed. They have mental powers, supernatural abilities. Heck they can make you bleed through your pours!
4. Never harm an innocent. - Are those D-Bee's truly innocent when they just want to eat what's in your brain pan?
5. Never torture for any reason. - No need to torture, kill them and put them out of their misery
6. Never kill for pleasure. - Same as above, may not want to kill them. But for the good of the planet and humanity, they must be exterminated.
7. Always help others. - Definitely help a fellow Human, no problem there. But how do they help a D-Bee. Well they are not truly under an obligation, but more than likely they may help out if it is a child that isn't going to bite them.
8. Work well in a group. - It would be hard pressed to see them in a group. But I can see it happen. The enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of situation.
9. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor. - D-Bee's don't have 'lawmen' and even if they did, would it be the Principled Character's law. Laws are different from region to region and from community to community. Think outside of the box and you can see that a Principled Character wouldn't adhere to a Cyberknight's rule.
10. Never betrays a friend. - D-Bee's are never friends. But if they are, then they have certainly earned that friendship.
11. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means
no breaking and entry, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc. - Again which law are you talking about... theirs or someone elses. They won't break the Coalition law.

[Zer0 Kay]

I had a player who could not wrap his head around the Coalition as being overall 'Good' just that the leaders were evil. So I had Karl Prosek assassinated, and Joe came into being. He was a master PR Guy and came up with the new Coalition: A Kinder and Gentler Coalition.

It basically was the same old Coalition, but with a better PR firm. Handwavium at work - I stated that even Tolkien and Lazlo actually liked the new Coalition. There were of course other things going on. And a secret group of Coalition warriors were still doing the same old thing.

Um... The CS aren't generally good. They are generally fearfull sheep that cow to the propaganda and fear mongering of those feeding them the propaganda causing the masses to act at best Selfish. Any truely principled citizen with courage would more than likely choose to leave the safety of the city. So the principled person full of fear would eventually turn at a minimum to a selfish alignment. Chi-Town is the largest circle of alignment change.

IDK about that. You can be principled and believe all the propaganda. Personal belief doesn't necessarily reflect alignment.

Really? Funny I thought alignment was supposed to be your personal beliefs.

Principled characters will . . .
1. Always keep his word. (Doesn't say only to humans or only to those who deserve it)
2. Avoid lies. (Doesn't say...)
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe. (Again)
4. Never harm an innocent. (May be twisted so that all D-bees aren't innocent)
5. Never torture for any reason. (Not even a D-bee)
6. Never kill for pleasure. (Here too)
7. Always help others. (Dang... can't specify that D-bees aren't others)
8. Work well in a group. (EVEN if there are D-Bees)
9. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor. (Dang D-Bee Lawmen! Dang D-bee cyberknights)
10. Never betrays a friend. (Better make sure none are D-Bees because if you start you can't stop)
11. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means
no breaking and entry, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc. (Hmm... maybe nope just the presence of D-Bees doesn't make it desperate or a Principled character would be required to Nuke the Burbs)
Gee ya know all of those sound like personal beliefs.
A Principled person may believe all the propaganda but they aren't going to go all "The only good D-bee, is a dead D-bee." They aren't going to become fearfull speciest. They won't become heroes of the Coalition running through town and gunning down D-bee bums because they're D-bees. They would follow the law and turn them in and would probably think poorly of the CS if they see them come down and summarily execute the bum or beat him and cary him off.

You are putting your own personal bias into it. Which is what my friend was doing also. It specifically states in the book that the vast majority of the citizens of the Coalition are good people. They just don't see the evil and corruption of the higher ups.

They don't see the D-Bee as a person, they see a D-Bee as a grotesque monster who has come to this world in order to destroy humanity. They probably wouldn't think anything of a Human looking DBee - until they found out. Then they would have trouble with it. But you have a Coalition Citizen look at a Grackletooth and they are more than likely shoot first and ask questions later. Why? Because it is an inhuman being. Because they have been trained that anything that isn't human is going to eat them.

Now - Yes, I see that the vast majority of the Coalition Citizens are sheep. I see them blinded by faith that the people in charge are doing what is right.

So lets break it down again:

Principled characters will . . .
1. Always keep his word. - When you don't talk to a D-Bee, no need to.
2. Avoid lies. - Same as above
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe. - Are D-Bee's truly unarmed. They have mental powers, supernatural abilities. Heck they can make you bleed through your pours!
4. Never harm an innocent. - Are those D-Bee's truly innocent when they just want to eat what's in your brain pan?
5. Never torture for any reason. - No need to torture, kill them and put them out of their misery
6. Never kill for pleasure. - Same as above, may not want to kill them. But for the good of the planet and humanity, they must be exterminated.
7. Always help others. - Definitely help a fellow Human, no problem there. But how do they help a D-Bee. Well they are not truly under an obligation, but more than likely they may help out if it is a child that isn't going to bite them.
8. Work well in a group. - It would be hard pressed to see them in a group. But I can see it happen. The enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of situation.
9. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor. - D-Bee's don't have 'lawmen' and even if they did, would it be the Principled Character's law. Laws are different from region to region and from community to community. Think outside of the box and you can see that a Principled Character wouldn't adhere to a Cyberknight's rule.
10. Never betrays a friend. - D-Bee's are never friends. But if they are, then they have certainly earned that friendship.
11. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means
no breaking and entry, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc. - Again which law are you talking about... theirs or someone elses. They won't break the Coalition law.

For the good of humanity and the planet??? That turns one from principled to scrupulous. War changes people. Those who are Principled in the CS have never met a D-Bee and would believe the propaganda but learning about them would change thier minds far easier than it would someone who is selfish or evil. To use a classic Dragon Magazine Issues alignments your talking Lawful Stupid or in this case Principled Stupid. It would be hard pressed for an intelligent Principled person to fall into that box that you have made and yes your concept is as much a box as mine. You've thought out of one box into another. So you can either have the Principled Chicken, Principled Stupid, Principled Intellectual and I'm sure others but the first two would not question the propaganda.

[Zer0 Kay]

[quote="sybert1138

IDK about that. You can be principled and believe all the propaganda. Personal belief doesn't necessarily reflect alignment.

Really? Funny I thought alignment was supposed to be your personal beliefs.

Principled characters will . . .
1. Always keep his word. (Doesn't say only to humans or only to those who deserve it)
2. Avoid lies. (Doesn't say...)
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe. (Again)
4. Never harm an innocent. (May be twisted so that all D-bees aren't innocent)
5. Never torture for any reason. (Not even a D-bee)
6. Never kill for pleasure. (Here too)
7. Always help others. (Dang... can't specify that D-bees aren't others)
8. Work well in a group. (EVEN if there are D-Bees)
9. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor. (Dang D-Bee Lawmen! Dang D-bee cyberknights)
10. Never betrays a friend. (Better make sure none are D-Bees because if you start you can't stop)
11. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means
no breaking and entry, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc. (Hmm... maybe nope just the presence of D-Bees doesn't make it desperate or a Principled character would be required to Nuke the Burbs)
Gee ya know all of those sound like personal beliefs.
A Principled person may believe all the propaganda but they aren't going to go all "The only good D-bee, is a dead D-bee." They aren't going to become fearfull speciest. They won't become heroes of the Coalition running through town and gunning down D-bee bums because they're D-bees. They would follow the law and turn them in and would probably think poorly of the CS if they see them come down and summarily execute the bum or beat him and cary him off.

You are putting your own personal bias into it. Which is what my friend was doing also. It specifically states in the book that the vast majority of the citizens of the Coalition are good people. They just don't see the evil and corruption of the higher ups.

They don't see the D-Bee as a person, they see a D-Bee as a grotesque monster who has come to this world in order to destroy humanity. They probably wouldn't think anything of a Human looking DBee - until they found out. Then they would have trouble with it. But you have a Coalition Citizen look at a Grackletooth and they are more than likely shoot first and ask questions later. Why? Because it is an inhuman being. Because they have been trained that anything that isn't human is going to eat them.

Now - Yes, I see that the vast majority of the Coalition Citizens are sheep. I see them blinded by faith that the people in charge are doing what is right.

So lets break it down again:

Principled characters will . . .
1. Always keep his word. - When you don't talk to a D-Bee, no need to.
2. Avoid lies. - Same as above
3. Never kill or attack an unarmed foe. - Are D-Bee's truly unarmed. They have mental powers, supernatural abilities. Heck they can make you bleed through your pours!
4. Never harm an innocent. - Are those D-Bee's truly innocent when they just want to eat what's in your brain pan?
5. Never torture for any reason. - No need to torture, kill them and put them out of their misery
6. Never kill for pleasure. - Same as above, may not want to kill them. But for the good of the planet and humanity, they must be exterminated.
7. Always help others. - Definitely help a fellow Human, no problem there. But how do they help a D-Bee. Well they are not truly under an obligation, but more than likely they may help out if it is a child that isn't going to bite them.
8. Work well in a group. - It would be hard pressed to see them in a group. But I can see it happen. The enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of situation.
9. Respect authority, law, self-discipline and honor. - D-Bee's don't have 'lawmen' and even if they did, would it be the Principled Character's law. Laws are different from region to region and from community to community. Think outside of the box and you can see that a Principled Character wouldn't adhere to a Cyberknight's rule.
10. Never betrays a friend. - D-Bee's are never friends. But if they are, then they have certainly earned that friendship.
11. Never break the law unless conditions are desperate. This means
no breaking and entry, theft, torture, unprovoked assaults, etc. - Again which law are you talking about... theirs or someone elses. They won't break the Coalition law.

Precisely, thought I might add to number 7 that they may not help a human, especially if a practitioner of magic, unregistered psychic, or known affiliate of d-bees and monsters. This doesn't make them evil by any means. It's the nature vs nurture argument, or perhaps compliment... depends on how you look at it. Also, dispositions exist to aid in fine tuning the more generalized alignments. A principled character from outside the CS may have no issue killing d-bees if that was the mentality of the village he came from.[/quote]

While another would have no problem killing children or puppies or kittens if that is the mentality of the village he came from. You guys are taking each item and applying like a bandaid that is superficial able to be changed by whims and views rather than a core essence. As the pages say a Principled person can be prejiduce but values life and freedom above all else. A Principled biggot would believe that they don't deserve to live within the walls of the CS but wouldn't think that they needed to be exterminated, they'd probably have them put on reservations.

[Tiree]

I never said that Good wasn't Stupid. And in this case, yes Principled Stupid would fit the bill precisely.

And yes, I am well aware that Smart people can be stupid also!

[Tiree]

While another would have no problem killing children or puppies or kittens if that is the mentality of the village he came from. You guys are taking each item and applying like a bandaid that is superficial able to be changed by whims and views rather than a core essence. As the pages say a Principled person can be prejiduce but values life and freedom above all else. A Principled biggot would believe that they don't deserve to live within the walls of the CS but wouldn't think that they needed to be exterminated, they'd probably have them put on reservations.

Let's pick a specific race, how about the Xiticks (or however they are spelled). If a Principled character found a child of this race, what would they do? Knowing full well that they are probably going to be eaten if this was an adult version of the same race.

Or how about some un-named demon. It has supernatural abilities that we are all well aware of, but it is an adolescent. Even if it was good (which would be rare) and didn't know it's own abilities. A person who did not take the time to learn about this particular demon, would probably shoot and ask questions later. Morals are a grey area, that can be bent in many ways. You can bend them however you feel is right, as long as you can justify it.

Stealing an apple is a crime
Stealing an apple off a cart full of apple's and giving it to a hungry child is still a crime - it can be justified morally.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, But the original idea advertises for CE was that of an alternent earth that had gone through the time of the rifts, but with the american empire mostly intact. And the major nation was not a humansentric , not xenophobic, with Dogboys being counted as equals with humans in the fight to protect earth from the monster invaders.

That is what I got from the pre-view that was in one of the early rifters.

[DBX]

what about an atlantis with no splugorth occupying it.

in such a world which rifts nation would conquer it - lazlo, NG, archie, MI, CS, FOM, Camelot, gargoyles, brodkils, NGR

[Shark_Force]

what about an atlantis with no splugorth occupying it.

in such a world which rifts nation would conquer it - lazlo, NG, archie, MI, CS, FOM, Camelot, gargoyles, brodkils, NGR

my money is actually on the new navy. or maybe tritonia. most of the nations on rifts earth have only just barely begin looking at the world around them. consider that the coalition states have been around for what, like, 50 years? and that before then there was definitely something there, just not necessarily something called the coalition states? now ask yourself: how long has the NGR (one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world, probably the one with the most intact pre-rifts society other than situations where the entire society was rifted forward in time) known about the CS? pretty sure it's less than a decade. very few nations even had any sort of naval presence until recently. and while travelling by rift may not require a boat, i doubt there were very many people opening rifts to random locations in the middle of the ocean, blindly hoping they would hit land somewhere.

but, if we exclude those possibilities, i would guess probably ARCHIE, since he at least has the satellites to be able to know that atlantis is there.

[Spinachcat]

I would LOVE to see an Alternate Earth book.

And I don't mean 10% different. I mean a radically different vision of RIFTS Earth.

[DBX]

what about an atlantis with no splugorth occupying it.

in such a world which rifts nation would conquer it - lazlo, NG, archie, MI, CS, FOM, Camelot, gargoyles, brodkils, NGR

my money is actually on the new navy. or maybe tritonia. most of the nations on rifts earth have only just barely begin looking at the world around them. consider that the coalition states have been around for what, like, 50 years? and that before then there was definitely something there, just not necessarily something called the coalition states? now ask yourself: how long has the NGR (one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world, probably the one with the most intact pre-rifts society other than situations where the entire society was rifted forward in time) known about the CS? pretty sure it's less than a decade. very few nations even had any sort of naval presence until recently. and while travelling by rift may not require a boat, i doubt there were very many people opening rifts to random locations in the middle of the ocean, blindly hoping they would hit land somewhere.

but, if we exclude those possibilities, i would guess probably ARCHIE, since he at least has the satellites to be able to know that atlantis is there.

i think Lazlo has always been exploring - since its establishment around 100 years ago, when Chi-town as we know it was born.

NGR may well have had an overview of the world, as they have been there since the start of the rifts. I think a Chaos Earth: NGR book may be an interesting take on the world

NGR also has satellites (WB:5) that it may have used to look at the world before venturing out. May have spent some time listening to radio traffic in N.America before coming to conclusion that the CS was their best bet of a bad lot in N.America

I think Atlantis as a resource would be something many of these kingdoms would be willing to fight over, and in a sense all these powers far removed from their homebase would be on similar power lvls.

[DBX]

I would LOVE to see an Alternate Earth book.

And I don't mean 10% different. I mean a radically different vision of RIFTS Earth.

a bit like Chaos Earth is set in the past, and is in many ways similar to Rifts Earth but still radically different. I think a rifts set in the future would be different enough yet still have elements that are familiar to Rifts Earth. how far in the future would such a setting be-
198 P.A, 220 P.A, 298 P.A, 310 P.A calendar

[Zer0 Kay]

While another would have no problem killing children or puppies or kittens if that is the mentality of the village he came from. You guys are taking each item and applying like a bandaid that is superficial able to be changed by whims and views rather than a core essence. As the pages say a Principled person can be prejiduce but values life and freedom above all else. A Principled biggot would believe that they don't deserve to live within the walls of the CS but wouldn't think that they needed to be exterminated, they'd probably have them put on reservations.

Let's pick a specific race, how about the Xiticks (or however they are spelled). If a Principled character found a child of this race, what would they do? Knowing full well that they are probably going to be eaten if this was an adult version of the same race.

Or how about some un-named demon. It has supernatural abilities that we are all well aware of, but it is an adolescent. Even if it was good (which would be rare) and didn't know it's own abilities. A person who did not take the time to learn about this particular demon, would probably shoot and ask questions later. Morals are a grey area, that can be bent in many ways. You can bend them however you feel is right, as long as you can justify it.

Stealing an apple is a crime
Stealing an apple off a cart full of apple's and giving it to a hungry child is still a crime - it can be justified morally.

Hmm... so your saying that because they've been so inundated with propaganda they wouldn't bother doing any reasearch? OK so maybe the inhuman. Now what about time travelers and other humans that enter Rifts Earth through a Rift? Is the Principled CS person gonna blindly believe that the human child is dangerous because they've entered Rifts Earth by other means than a mother's womb?

Principled characters in general are not supposed to shoot first and ask questions later.

Why would you steal it instead of paying for it? And I could interpret the alignments where 7 is of higher value than 11 and you know there is that part that says "unless conditions are desperate" and if you have no money and that child will die of hunger... conditions are desperate... especially for the kid.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, But the original idea advertises for CE was that of an alternent earth that had gone through the time of the rifts, but with the american empire mostly intact. And the major nation was not a humansentric , not xenophobic, with Dogboys being counted as equals with humans in the fight to protect earth from the monster invaders.

That is what I got from the pre-view that was in one of the early rifters.

Dang I was going to say I did but apparently that was a different thread where I said it sarcastly, describing it as an alternate dimension where all the deaths happened 1 minute after midnight... blah, blah, blah. The stuff that was said was the cause of CE. Hmm did it include dogboys? Would they have been necessary with trained psychic sensitives?

[taalismn]

Much as I'd love to see an Alternate Rifts Earth book, you'd have to have TWO: one for those who want to see an Earth where the Golden Ager nations DIDN'T collapse, and one in which Humans and the average SDC D-bees are little pathetic things trying not be noticed and stomped by the demonic forces roaming the Earth.
In which case, it's simply easier not to wait for a World/Dimension Book, and simply fan-make it yourself.

[Tiree]

Hmm... so your saying that because they've been so inundated with propaganda they wouldn't bother doing any reasearch? OK so maybe the inhuman. Now what about time travelers and other humans that enter Rifts Earth through a Rift? Is the Principled CS person gonna blindly believe that the human child is dangerous because they've entered Rifts Earth by other means than a mother's womb?

Principled characters in general are not supposed to shoot first and ask questions later.

Why would you steal it instead of paying for it? And I could interpret the alignments where 7 is of higher value than 11 and you know there is that part that says "unless conditions are desperate" and if you have no money and that child will die of hunger... conditions are desperate... especially for the kid.

Actually it's fairly complex when you think about it. But without knowing the person came through the Rift, more than likely a Coalition Principled citizen would help a human in need. But once that person has been found out to be a dimensional being there could be an issue. In a way you can call it very similar to Racism. You can be Principled and still be a Racist - in this case indigenous human supremacist. The Principled character may have a Moral Crisis in this instance. They may decide that the dimensional human being isn't worth the help anymore. I mean heck - they could have mental or superpowers that just haven't manifested yet.

As said previously with part of the principled character's and their friends. I am sure if push came to shove, and it was a dimensional human being or a Grackletooth the Principled CS citizen would go with the dimensional human being - they after all are human versus a monster.

Remember: Alignment's aren't cast in stone. They are the most common traits that a character has. They can be bent, and broken. But the character is going to strive towards what the Alignment says. And nothing in the Alignments say that a character can't be a Bigot. In this case - Indigenous Normal Human Supremacist vs. all other Humanity (dimensional, super power, magic, and psychic)

[Tiree]

Much as I'd love to see an Alternate Rifts Earth book, you'd have to have TWO: one for those who want to see an Earth where the Golden Ager nations DIDN'T collapse, and one in which Humans and the average SDC D-bees are little pathetic things trying not be noticed and stomped by the demonic forces roaming the Earth.
In which case, it's simply easier not to wait for a World/Dimension Book, and simply fan-make it yourself.

I think you would need Two Dimension Books - one to cover the bulk of the information you want to portray. The other very similar to a GMG as to what is available from the other World Books - including updates and revisions. Like for me, I would make Africa and the mid-east a huge toxic wasteland. Japan wouldn't have been rifted into the future. And neither would have the Tundra Rangers.

[taalismn]

[
I think you would need Two Dimension Books - one to cover the bulk of the information you want to portray. The other very similar to a GMG as to what is available from the other World Books - including updates and revisions. Like for me, I would make Africa and the mid-east a huge toxic wasteland. Japan wouldn't have been rifted into the future. And neither would have the Tundra Rangers.

You gotta have Tundra Rangers...you wanna sell books in Canada. "Yeah, Free Quebec and Lazlo are NOT enough!"

[Zer0 Kay]

Hmm... so your saying that because they've been so inundated with propaganda they wouldn't bother doing any reasearch? OK so maybe the inhuman. Now what about time travelers and other humans that enter Rifts Earth through a Rift? Is the Principled CS person gonna blindly believe that the human child is dangerous because they've entered Rifts Earth by other means than a mother's womb?

Principled characters in general are not supposed to shoot first and ask questions later.

Why would you steal it instead of paying for it? And I could interpret the alignments where 7 is of higher value than 11 and you know there is that part that says "unless conditions are desperate" and if you have no money and that child will die of hunger... conditions are desperate... especially for the kid.

Actually it's fairly complex when you think about it. But without knowing the person came through the Rift, more than likely a Coalition Principled citizen would help a human in need. But once that person has been found out to be a dimensional being there could be an issue. In a way you can call it very similar to Racism. You can be Principled and still be a Racist - in this case indigenous human supremacist. The Principled character may have a Moral Crisis in this instance. They may decide that the dimensional human being isn't worth the help anymore. I mean heck - they could have mental or superpowers that just haven't manifested yet.

As said previously with part of the principled character's and their friends. I am sure if push came to shove, and it was a dimensional human being or a Grackletooth the Principled CS citizen would go with the dimensional human being - they after all are human versus a monster.

Remember: Alignment's aren't cast in stone. They are the most common traits that a character has. They can be bent, and broken. But the character is going to strive towards what the Alignment says. And nothing in the Alignments say that a character can't be a Bigot. In this case - Indigenous Normal Human Supremacist vs. all other Humanity (dimensional, super power, magic, and psychic)

Your right as I stated before the alignment section even states that a good character can be as biggoted as anyone else but will choose life and freedom over anything else and would be the better person to have with you in a life or death situation. A principled purple supremecist isn't going to like the green guys but at the same time he isn't going to try to go slaughter them all as long as he isn't under the assumption that the greens are unfeeling monsters who's only thoughts are about eating purple children.

[Tiree]

Your right as I stated before the alignment section even states that a good character can be as biggoted as anyone else but will choose life and freedom over anything else and would be the better person to have with you in a life or death situation. A principled purple supremecist isn't going to like the green guys but at the same time he isn't going to try to go slaughter them all as long as he isn't under the assumption that the greens are unfeeling monsters who's only thoughts are about eating purple children.

This is exactly my point about the Propaganda about DBee's to the Coalition. They treat all the Green guy's (even children) as unfeeling monsters that can kill and/or eat you with a flick of the wrist. The fact that they have super powers, mind powers, magic, and supernatural abilities help foster this image that the Green's can kill a Purple without trying. And that if the Purple's don't stick up for themselves, there won't be a Purple left.

[Zer0 Kay]

Your right as I stated before the alignment section even states that a good character can be as biggoted as anyone else but will choose life and freedom over anything else and would be the better person to have with you in a life or death situation. A principled purple supremecist isn't going to like the green guys but at the same time he isn't going to try to go slaughter them all as long as he isn't under the assumption that the greens are unfeeling monsters who's only thoughts are about eating purple children.

This is exactly my point about the Propaganda about DBee's to the Coalition. They treat all the Green guy's (even children) as unfeeling monsters that can kill and/or eat you with a flick of the wrist. The fact that they have super powers, mind powers, magic, and supernatural abilities help foster this image that the Green's can kill a Purple without trying. And that if the Purple's don't stick up for themselves, there won't be a Purple left.

Exactly but if a Principled purple becomes educated then the principled purple is far less likely than a scrupulous purple to change their ways. I see it as a logarithmically decreasing chance for change as you go toward diabolic. Not because the diabolic would continue to believe that the greens are still man eaters or what have you but because the diabolic would likely enjoy killing the greens even more now that the diabolic purple knew that he was harming people that wouldn't normally harm him.

[Tiree]

Exactly but if a Principled purple becomes educated then the principled purple is far less likely than a scrupulous purple to change their ways. I see it as a logarithmically decreasing chance for change as you go toward diabolic. Not because the diabolic would continue to believe that the greens are still man eaters or what have you but because the diabolic would likely enjoy killing the greens even more now that the diabolic purple knew that he was harming people that wouldn't normally harm him.

You won't see dramatic change, as the conditioning is not easy to break. It will take decades if not generations to change the thought process to believe that these dimensional beings are okay, and to give them trust. Being prejudicial and a bigot an alignment does not make. So those who are of a specific alignment, will avoid situations that would make them question it.

[Zer0 Kay]

Exactly but if a Principled purple becomes educated then the principled purple is far less likely than a scrupulous purple to change their ways. I see it as a logarithmically decreasing chance for change as you go toward diabolic. Not because the diabolic would continue to believe that the greens are still man eaters or what have you but because the diabolic would likely enjoy killing the greens even more now that the diabolic purple knew that he was harming people that wouldn't normally harm him.

You won't see dramatic change, as the conditioning is not easy to break. It will take decades if not generations to change the thought process to believe that these dimensional beings are okay, and to give them trust. Being prejudicial and a bigot an alignment does not make. So those who are of a specific alignment, will avoid situations that would make them question it.

I don't agree with the last sentence... all of the alignments may avoid. One that is of a scholarly nature likely wouldn't though. I guess it is all a question of how much you take things at face value and how much you are willing to find out for yourself. Which again has nothing to do with alignment... except maybe Taoist since it assumes you study the Tao Te Ching, then again that could get as twisted by manipulative people to make it look the wrong way.

[DBX]

W/O their psychic alarm system against magic/psi, the Coalition would not last long. It's the only thing that's really saved them. And yeah, I know, tech tech tech, but adult or anient dragons,or most greater deamons en masse would in time over run them.

The CS may not be as powerful as they are now but wouldn't they be able to adapt to the situation.

Smaller area under their control, no burbs, more vanguard hidden within their ranks, more use of psi-tech devices, more borgs - similar to ngr