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How would this work as far as there mdc? Would the sdc gain translate to mdc? Or would they just get large amounts of sdc despite them being mdc?

I would say that the sdc needles that are part of the harness couldn't penetrate the skin so the chemicals wouldn't be able to affect the body as much as they should. The person would die horribly.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I would say that the sdc needles that are part of the harness couldn't penetrate the skin so the chemicals wouldn't be able to affect the body as much as they should. The person would die horribly.

So your telling me in a world of almost mdc everything they dont have mdc needles?

Currently, on Rifts Earth, they apparently don't know how to make MDC materials bond to tissues and bone, only SDC.

Consequently, a Wormwood Titan Juicer would only gain a significant amount of SDC -which would ultimately translate as a relatively tiny amount of "MDC" -which would be added to their bodies.

What about Mega-Juicers? Aren't they considered MDC creatures?

gelidus wrote:How would this work as far as there mdc? Would the sdc gain translate to mdc? Or would they just get large amounts of sdc despite them being mdc?

I would rule that the system could work .. if the Humans from wormwood were not transformed from being in such an alien and magical enviorment for such a long long time.

They technically are human, yet .. they are not. Due to the magical energies of Worm Wood transforming them into what they currently are. (thats canon from worm wood too btw..)

Ergo the patient would take the SDC added damage (which is small amounts of MDC as damage instead of being added to the PC, there by quite possibly killing the patient.)

No it would not work in my world. But thats just my opinion.

dragonfett wrote:What about Mega-Juicers? Aren't they considered MDC creatures?

Different type of Juicer.

This Thread is asking about the Titan Juicer SDC bonding process......and it's possible effects on a Wormwood human.


P.S. Mega-Juicers become that way, they don't start out that way.

Why are Wormwood humans MDC in the first place?
Do they stay that way if they leave Wormwood?

I've always been under the impression that S.D.C. bonuses applied to M.D.C. creatures become M.D.C. bonuses. Since the juicer procedure is designed to augment humans, it should work perfectly on the wormwoodian human. Despite being an M.D.C. being, he is still human in every way.

Regardless, I would allow it, but I'd up the cost of the juicing procedure by perhaps 10-20% to reflect the cost of crafting the system so the needles are actually capable of penetrating the characters M.D.C hide.

One small item of note. If the character is being augmented in order to return to Wormwood and battle the Unholy, he will need to figure out some way to get refills for the harness. I imagine that for the average Wormwoodian that would be prohibitively expensive.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why are Wormwood humans MDC in the first place?

The planet's energies slowly alters them -or transforms them into MDC "on the spot" if they are conceived and born there.

Do they stay that way if they leave Wormwood?

Yes.

But if they have a kid elsewhere, that MDC quality doesn't get passed down.

Mercdog wrote:I've always been under the impression that S.D.C. bonuses applied to M.D.C. creatures become M.D.C. bonuses. Since the juicer procedure is designed to augment humans, it should work perfectly on the wormwoodian human. Despite being an M.D.C. being, he is still human in every way.

The only problem is that the Bonding Process uses only SDC materials, those that will chemically and physically bond with the existing tissues.

(It is implied that even using "just" light metals is borderline fatal from the high levels of toxicity, and one can logically infer from that that if they tried to use even more 'artificial' MDC materials things would be even worse, or they would have done that from the beginning to get much more durable Juicers.)

cornholioprime wrote:

Mercdog wrote:I've always been under the impression that S.D.C. bonuses applied to M.D.C. creatures become M.D.C. bonuses. Since the juicer procedure is designed to augment humans, it should work perfectly on the wormwoodian human. Despite being an M.D.C. being, he is still human in every way.

The only problem is that the Bonding Process uses only SDC materials, those that will chemically and physically bond with the existing tissues.

(It is implied that even using "just" light metals is borderline fatal from the high levels of toxicity, and one can logically infer from that that if they tried to use even more 'artificial' MDC materials things would be even worse, or they would have done that from the beginning to get much more durable Juicers.)

I'll have to check the specifics of the prodcedure later, but I'd probably still allow it. It doesn't seem all that unbalancing to me. But, if it did become so, there are always solutions to that problem.

cornholioprime wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why are Wormwood humans MDC in the first place?

The planet's energies slowly alters them -or transforms them into MDC "on the spot" if they are conceived and born there.

Do they stay that way if they leave Wormwood?

Yes.

But if they have a kid elsewhere, that MDC quality doesn't get passed down.

Seconded. That's how I remember it too.

Mercdog wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mercdog wrote:I've always been under the impression that S.D.C. bonuses applied to M.D.C. creatures become M.D.C. bonuses. Since the juicer procedure is designed to augment humans, it should work perfectly on the wormwoodian human. Despite being an M.D.C. being, he is still human in every way.

The only problem is that the Bonding Process uses only SDC materials, those that will chemically and physically bond with the existing tissues.

(It is implied that even using "just" light metals is borderline fatal from the high levels of toxicity, and one can logically infer from that that if they tried to use even more 'artificial' MDC materials things would be even worse, or they would have done that from the beginning to get much more durable Juicers.)

I'll have to check the specifics of the prodcedure later, but I'd probably still allow it. It doesn't seem all that unbalancing to me. But, if it did become so, there are always solutions to that problem.

well, think about it for a second from a strictly out-of-game, Balance standpoint.

If a bunch of "mere" SDC particles give a Titan well over 1800 SDC (max), then what would you get if you house-ruled MDC particles into the equation?

One hell of a Munchkin Juicer -at least compared to all other Juicer types -that's what.

Mercdog wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why are Wormwood humans MDC in the first place?

The planet's energies slowly alters them -or transforms them into MDC "on the spot" if they are conceived and born there.

Do they stay that way if they leave Wormwood?

Yes.

But if they have a kid elsewhere, that MDC quality doesn't get passed down.

Seconded. That's how I remember it too.

Hm.
If so, then I'd allow it.
Rifts Earth has the technology to give Brodkil demons MOM implants and cybernetics, so they can clearly work on MDC creatures.

As for the effects, I'd have to look over Wormwood and Juicer Uprising and mull things over a bit.
Offhand, I'd say one of the following might work:
-The SDC bonus divided by 10 is added as a MDC bonus
-The SDC bonus is converted to MDC at the normal ratio (100:1)

Of course, if the GM doesn't want it to work, there are any number of explanations:
-MDC flesh isn't as mutable as SDC flesh, and the sheer growth created by the Titan Juicer process kills the subject by squishing their insides together inside their stronger-than-steel skin.
-The drugs work differently on MDC flesh, or fail to work at all. IIRC, in Atlantis the bars serve some really strong drinks to MDC customers, because the normal stuff doesn't really work much for them.

Any way you slice it, the process would be a lot more expensive than normal.

Problem with that one KC your using logic. Its rifts so....look at the problem in a mirror while hanging upside down. :b

gelidus wrote:How would this work as far as there mdc? Would the sdc gain translate to mdc? Or would they just get large amounts of sdc despite them being mdc?

It wouldn't, in game-terms. You must be SDC, not simply "human" to become a Titan Juicer.

Though if you could somehow get the conversion done to you on an SDC world, then go to Rifts Earth it would work. For how long though is up for review.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I would say that the sdc needles that are part of the harness couldn't penetrate the skin so the chemicals wouldn't be able to affect the body as much as they should. The person would die horribly.

"sdc needles" isn't a valid reason. You know this, I know this
The chemicals possibly being ineffective though might be. However there is nothing to support the drugs not working within the rules, only the idea-framework that mdc and sdc objects are "different". Maybe they'd have to do some drug-testing to get the dosage right?

I'd say it could work though, but I wouldn't let it happen within a game myself.

cornholioprime wrote:

Mercdog wrote:I've always been under the impression that S.D.C. bonuses applied to M.D.C. creatures become M.D.C. bonuses. Since the juicer procedure is designed to augment humans, it should work perfectly on the wormwoodian human. Despite being an M.D.C. being, he is still human in every way.

The only problem is that the Bonding Process uses only SDC materials, those that will chemically and physically bond with the existing tissues.

(It is implied that even using "just" light metals is borderline fatal from the high levels of toxicity, and one can logically infer from that that if they tried to use even more 'artificial' MDC materials things would be even worse, or they would have done that from the beginning to get much more durable Juicers.)

Conversely, the mega-damage nature of people from Wormwood seems to be a totally magical thing that has nada to do with science and technology. They never say anything about people from Wormwood being made out of different stuff from us, just that it's a perk of living on a magic planet. After all, if your logic was right then Wormwood humans would starve if they lived in other dimensions, because all the SDC food they're eating wouldn't be able to interact with their MDC systems.

Then again, by the logic of the Wormwood book itself they should've all starved to death by now anyway, since they're eating mega-damage substances and don't have the Supernatual PS they'd need to be able to chew it

Rallan wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mercdog wrote:I've always been under the impression that S.D.C. bonuses applied to M.D.C. creatures become M.D.C. bonuses. Since the juicer procedure is designed to augment humans, it should work perfectly on the wormwoodian human. Despite being an M.D.C. being, he is still human in every way.

The only problem is that the Bonding Process uses only SDC materials, those that will chemically and physically bond with the existing tissues.

(It is implied that even using "just" light metals is borderline fatal from the high levels of toxicity, and one can logically infer from that that if they tried to use even more 'artificial' MDC materials things would be even worse, or they would have done that from the beginning to get much more durable Juicers.)

Conversely, the mega-damage nature of people from Wormwood seems to be a totally magical thing that has nada to do with science and technology. They never say anything about people from Wormwood being made out of different stuff from us, just that it's a perk of living on a magic planet. After all, if your logic was right then Wormwood humans would starve if they lived in other dimensions, because all the SDC food they're eating wouldn't be able to interact with their MDC systems.

Who says that I think it won't work?

Someone somewhere else said that they believe that Wormwooders can use the Titan Juicer bonding process to infuse those guys with hundreds of MDC. I say that the creators of this procedure would have used MDC materials if they could have.

As it stands, my position is that the process will work on a Wormwooder, but that they will simply get the supermassive amounts of SDC added to the physical structures of their MDC bodies (I surmise that using MDC particles are too toxic for humans to have in their bloodstream [actually, I think that the Authors just don't want Juicers with several hundred to a couple thousand MDC], and that Wormwooders are otherwise human in every way).

So where, exactly, are we disagreeing here?

You know, just for **** and giggles, what if one of the people capable of manipulating the fabric of Wormwood (one of the Worm-speakers? I think they're called) were influenced by the idea of the Titan Juicer? Maybe something akin to a Wormwood version of a Splugorth Juicer?

Gazirra wrote:You know, just for **** and giggles, what if one of the people capable of manipulating the fabric of Wormwood (one of the Worm-speakers? I think they're called) were influenced by the idea of the Titan Juicer? Maybe something akin to a Wormwood version of a Splugorth Juicer?

So.... Worm Juicers?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Gazirra wrote:You know, just for **** and giggles, what if one of the people capable of manipulating the fabric of Wormwood (one of the Worm-speakers? I think they're called) were influenced by the idea of the Titan Juicer? Maybe something akin to a Wormwood version of a Splugorth Juicer?

So.... Worm Juicers?

This is where I admit my obvious ignorance of the setting, but doesn't the Wormwood setting have symbiotic organism type stuff?

cornholioprime wrote:

Mercdog wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Mercdog wrote:I've always been under the impression that S.D.C. bonuses applied to M.D.C. creatures become M.D.C. bonuses. Since the juicer procedure is designed to augment humans, it should work perfectly on the wormwoodian human. Despite being an M.D.C. being, he is still human in every way.

The only problem is that the Bonding Process uses only SDC materials, those that will chemically and physically bond with the existing tissues.

(It is implied that even using "just" light metals is borderline fatal from the high levels of toxicity, and one can logically infer from that that if they tried to use even more 'artificial' MDC materials things would be even worse, or they would have done that from the beginning to get much more durable Juicers.)

Just an observation, but upon reading the Titan Juicer description, the bonding process would technically be completely unnecessary for a human from wormwood. Since the bonding is primarily to strengthen the SDC bones of a normal human so that his newly enhaced musculature doesn't snap them like twigs. The wormwood human, already a MDC being, would have a skeleton capable of withstanding the strain caused by the enhanced strength.

I'll have to check the specifics of the prodcedure later, but I'd probably still allow it. It doesn't seem all that unbalancing to me. But, if it did become so, there are always solutions to that problem.

well, think about it for a second from a strictly out-of-game, Balance standpoint.

If a bunch of "mere" SDC particles give a Titan well over 1800 SDC (max), then what would you get if you house-ruled MDC particles into the equation?

One hell of a Munchkin Juicer -at least compared to all other Juicer types -that's what.

Actually it would be +2200 M.D.C. if you include the max Hit Point bonus as well.

But now that I have been able to check up on the stats and bonuses, I think I'd have to agree that the juicer process could amp up a M.D.C. human to godlike levels. I'd still allow the process to work on the wormwoodian, with Hit Point bonuses being simple 1:1, but the S.D.C. bonuses reduced to 1 M.D.C. per 10 S.D.C.. Not a perfect solution, but adequate enough for my games.

Gazirra wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Gazirra wrote:You know, just for **** and giggles, what if one of the people capable of manipulating the fabric of Wormwood (one of the Worm-speakers? I think they're called) were influenced by the idea of the Titan Juicer? Maybe something akin to a Wormwood version of a Splugorth Juicer?

So.... Worm Juicers?

This is where I admit my obvious ignorance of the setting, but doesn't the Wormwood setting have symbiotic organism type stuff?

I've barely ever read Wormwood, but IIRC you're right.
The wormspeakers have worms coming out of their mouths, and it's probably not because they're eating.

Trying to use logic here...


So the titian juicer process takes a normal squishy sdc person and turns them into a slightly crunchy sdc person by adding massive amounts of muscle and putting metal plates on there bones so they can support the large amounts of tank sundering mass.


So if you were to take a person who by all other means was a normal human but was mdc wouldn't they get mdc from it vs sdc?

I mean no part of there body is sdc so I can't see how it would make sense for them to get sdc from some where.....

The metabolisms would be different for a normal human and a Wormwood human. That would be my explanation.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Gazirra wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Gazirra wrote:You know, just for **** and giggles, what if one of the people capable of manipulating the fabric of Wormwood (one of the Worm-speakers? I think they're called) were influenced by the idea of the Titan Juicer? Maybe something akin to a Wormwood version of a Splugorth Juicer?

So.... Worm Juicers?

This is where I admit my obvious ignorance of the setting, but doesn't the Wormwood setting have symbiotic organism type stuff?

I've barely ever read Wormwood, but IIRC you're right.
The wormspeakers have worms coming out of their mouths, and it's probably not because they're eating.

IIRC, creating symbiotes, especially for purposes like a juicer type augmentation, is considered tantamount to necromancy on Wormwood. Using pre-existing symbiotes is fine, but creating them is to twist and manipulate the very fabric of the Living Planet. So the Worm Speaker would have nothing to do with it. However, Symbiotic Warriors using the rules from the Rifter (#18 I think) would be all for it. The Unholy would view it as a great weapon to give their warriors as well.

Thanks all

gelidus wrote:Trying to use logic here...


So the titian juicer process takes a normal squishy sdc person and turns them into a slightly crunchy sdc person by adding massive amounts of muscle and putting metal plates on there bones so they can support the large amounts of tank sundering mass.


So if you were to take a person who by all other means was a normal human but was mdc wouldn't they get mdc from it vs sdc?

I mean no part of there body is sdc so I can't see how it would make sense for them to get sdc from some where.....

Probably not.

The Flavor Text of the Titan Juicer process implies that ordinary SDC Particles are toxic enough as it is.

gelidus wrote:Trying to use logic here...


So the titian juicer process takes a normal squishy sdc person and turns them into a slightly crunchy sdc person by adding massive amounts of muscle and putting metal plates on there bones so they can support the large amounts of tank sundering mass.


So if you were to take a person who by all other means was a normal human but was mdc wouldn't they get mdc from it vs sdc?

I mean no part of there body is sdc so I can't see how it would make sense for them to get sdc from some where.....

let's try this out with something else, shall we?

alright, we take an SDC building, let's say a log cabin. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of SDC.

now, let's pretend we have the same log cabin, made out of MDC wood. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of ______.

now, go ahead. fill in the blank. does the MDC nature of the log cabin mean that by throwing SDC materials into the mix, it should gain MDC? or does it mean that all the dirt and rocks we just threw on top only add a small amount of MDC, and even that is actually nothing more than hundreds of points of SDC which is equivalent to MDC apart from the fact that it can be damaged by SDC weapons.

personally, my opinion is that the second situation applies, but many people seem to think that the first situation should apply. i'm really not sure why that is. if it was possible to do the titan juicer transformation with MDC materials, it wouldn't matter whether the modified individual has MDC or SDC, it would just add MDC. so, if it was possible to add MDC using the titan juicer transformation, it would be done. it isn't done, so presumably is not possible (you are free to houserule otherwise, but if you do allow it then normal juicers should also gain MDC)

Shark_Force wrote:

gelidus wrote:Trying to use logic here...


So the titian juicer process takes a normal squishy sdc person and turns them into a slightly crunchy sdc person by adding massive amounts of muscle and putting metal plates on there bones so they can support the large amounts of tank sundering mass.


So if you were to take a person who by all other means was a normal human but was mdc wouldn't they get mdc from it vs sdc?

I mean no part of there body is sdc so I can't see how it would make sense for them to get sdc from some where.....

let's try this out with something else, shall we?

alright, we take an SDC building, let's say a log cabin. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of SDC.

now, let's pretend we have the same log cabin, made out of MDC wood. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of ______.

now, go ahead. fill in the blank. does the MDC nature of the log cabin mean that by throwing SDC materials into the mix, it should gain MDC? or does it mean that all the dirt and rocks we just threw on top only add a small amount of MDC, and even that is actually nothing more than hundreds of points of SDC which is equivalent to MDC apart from the fact that it can be damaged by SDC weapons.

personally, my opinion is that the second situation applies, but many people seem to think that the first situation should apply. i'm really not sure why that is. if it was possible to do the titan juicer transformation with MDC materials, it wouldn't matter whether the modified individual has MDC or SDC, it would just add MDC. so, if it was possible to add MDC using the titan juicer transformation, it would be done. it isn't done, so presumably is not possible (you are free to houserule otherwise, but if you do allow it then normal juicers should also gain MDC)

The man doth speak true!!

Mercdog wrote:I'll have to check the specifics of the prodcedure later, but I'd probably still allow it. It doesn't seem all that unbalancing to me. But, if it did become so, there are always solutions to that problem.

Since they could become Maxi-Killers anyway, I don't see why Titan Juicers would be all that much more of a problem.

*shrug*

/Sub

Shark_Force wrote:

gelidus wrote:Trying to use logic here...


So the titian juicer process takes a normal squishy sdc person and turns them into a slightly crunchy sdc person by adding massive amounts of muscle and putting metal plates on there bones so they can support the large amounts of tank sundering mass.


So if you were to take a person who by all other means was a normal human but was mdc wouldn't they get mdc from it vs sdc?

I mean no part of there body is sdc so I can't see how it would make sense for them to get sdc from some where.....

let's try this out with something else, shall we?

alright, we take an SDC building, let's say a log cabin. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of SDC.

now, let's pretend we have the same log cabin, made out of MDC wood. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of ______.

now, go ahead. fill in the blank. does the MDC nature of the log cabin mean that by throwing SDC materials into the mix, it should gain MDC? or does it mean that all the dirt and rocks we just threw on top only add a small amount of MDC, and even that is actually nothing more than hundreds of points of SDC which is equivalent to MDC apart from the fact that it can be damaged by SDC weapons.

personally, my opinion is that the second situation applies, but many people seem to think that the first situation should apply. i'm really not sure why that is. if it was possible to do the titan juicer transformation with MDC materials, it wouldn't matter whether the modified individual has MDC or SDC, it would just add MDC. so, if it was possible to add MDC using the titan juicer transformation, it would be done. it isn't done, so presumably is not possible (you are free to houserule otherwise, but if you do allow it then normal juicers should also gain MDC)

That is a horrid comparison. Your comparing a living breathing creature capable of adapting and changing to a picea wood....

Besides the sdc materials in it have little to do with how they get the huge amounts of sdc. Its just so there skeleton can support the huge amounts of muscle on it. They are ONLY(worm wood humans) mdc none of the other rules that apply to mdc creatures apply to them such as the immunity to drugs or toxins. Its more like taking a Grackel Tooth (spelling?) And having him hit the gym for a few months and getting even more ripped. Is he going to gain sdc from that? Isn't his mdc body swelling and growing in size going to add more mdc to his stats?

gelidus wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

gelidus wrote:Trying to use logic here...


So the titian juicer process takes a normal squishy sdc person and turns them into a slightly crunchy sdc person by adding massive amounts of muscle and putting metal plates on there bones so they can support the large amounts of tank sundering mass.


So if you were to take a person who by all other means was a normal human but was mdc wouldn't they get mdc from it vs sdc?

I mean no part of there body is sdc so I can't see how it would make sense for them to get sdc from some where.....

let's try this out with something else, shall we?

alright, we take an SDC building, let's say a log cabin. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of SDC.

now, let's pretend we have the same log cabin, made out of MDC wood. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of ______.

now, go ahead. fill in the blank. does the MDC nature of the log cabin mean that by throwing SDC materials into the mix, it should gain MDC? or does it mean that all the dirt and rocks we just threw on top only add a small amount of MDC, and even that is actually nothing more than hundreds of points of SDC which is equivalent to MDC apart from the fact that it can be damaged by SDC weapons.

personally, my opinion is that the second situation applies, but many people seem to think that the first situation should apply. i'm really not sure why that is. if it was possible to do the titan juicer transformation with MDC materials, it wouldn't matter whether the modified individual has MDC or SDC, it would just add MDC. so, if it was possible to add MDC using the titan juicer transformation, it would be done. it isn't done, so presumably is not possible (you are free to houserule otherwise, but if you do allow it then normal juicers should also gain MDC)

That is a horrid comparison. Your comparing a living breathing creature capable of adapting and changing to a picea wood....

Besides the sdc materials in it have little to do with how they get the huge amounts of sdc. Its just so there skeleton can support the huge amounts of muscle on it. They are ONLY(worm wood humans) mdc none of the other rules that apply to mdc creatures apply to them such as the immunity to drugs or toxins. Its more like taking a Grackel Tooth (spelling?) And having him hit the gym for a few months and getting even more ripped. Is he going to gain sdc from that? Isn't his mdc body swelling and growing in size going to add more mdc to his stats?

His body is re-configuring ingested materials into MDC just as all beings, SDC or otherwise, do all the time.

HOWEVER, the Titan Juicer particles aren't ingested and reconfigured; they are essentially plastered onto the existing framework (carefully re-read the description in Rifts: Juicer Uprising; it's rather detailed and explicit).

The argument that you're putting forth is like trying to say that if you bond Adamantium to Wolverine's bones, Logan's entire body structure including his muscles and hair and tissues, will also become Adamantium.

cornholioprime wrote:

gelidus wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

gelidus wrote:Trying to use logic here...


So the titian juicer process takes a normal squishy sdc person and turns them into a slightly crunchy sdc person by adding massive amounts of muscle and putting metal plates on there bones so they can support the large amounts of tank sundering mass.


So if you were to take a person who by all other means was a normal human but was mdc wouldn't they get mdc from it vs sdc?

I mean no part of there body is sdc so I can't see how it would make sense for them to get sdc from some where.....

let's try this out with something else, shall we?

alright, we take an SDC building, let's say a log cabin. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of SDC.

now, let's pretend we have the same log cabin, made out of MDC wood. we want to make it sturdier, so we start piling dirt and rocks around the outside and even over the top, adding hundreds of ______.

now, go ahead. fill in the blank. does the MDC nature of the log cabin mean that by throwing SDC materials into the mix, it should gain MDC? or does it mean that all the dirt and rocks we just threw on top only add a small amount of MDC, and even that is actually nothing more than hundreds of points of SDC which is equivalent to MDC apart from the fact that it can be damaged by SDC weapons.

personally, my opinion is that the second situation applies, but many people seem to think that the first situation should apply. i'm really not sure why that is. if it was possible to do the titan juicer transformation with MDC materials, it wouldn't matter whether the modified individual has MDC or SDC, it would just add MDC. so, if it was possible to add MDC using the titan juicer transformation, it would be done. it isn't done, so presumably is not possible (you are free to houserule otherwise, but if you do allow it then normal juicers should also gain MDC)

That is a horrid comparison. Your comparing a living breathing creature capable of adapting and changing to a picea wood....

Besides the sdc materials in it have little to do with how they get the huge amounts of sdc. Its just so there skeleton can support the huge amounts of muscle on it. They are ONLY(worm wood humans) mdc none of the other rules that apply to mdc creatures apply to them such as the immunity to drugs or toxins. Its more like taking a Grackel Tooth (spelling?) And having him hit the gym for a few months and getting even more ripped. Is he going to gain sdc from that? Isn't his mdc body swelling and growing in size going to add more mdc to his stats?

His body is re-configuring ingested materials into MDC just as all beings, SDC or otherwise, do all the time.

HOWEVER, the Titan Juicer particles aren't ingested and reconfigured; they are essentially plastered onto the existing framework (carefully re-read the description in Rifts: Juicer Uprising; it's rather detailed and explicit).

The argument that you're putting forth is like trying to say that if you bond Adamantium to Wolverine's bones, Logan's entire body structure including his muscles and hair and tissues, will also become Adamantium.

What does it matter how it happens? The bottom line he is a mdc being getting larger through the swelling of his muscles and such. Are you telling me you think he would only get sdc even though he is growing larger? Thats like saying little billy has as much sdc who is 3'2 and 40 lbs as tough Tony who is 6'5 and 300 lbs

The skeleton adds VERY little to the sdc that they gain. Or they would keep a alot more of the sdc when they detox then they do. That is the ONLY bonding of sdc that takes place...

Logan did not start out as a mdc creature the citizens of worm wood did yet again a bad comparison.

gelidus wrote:What does it matter how it happens? The bottom line he is a mdc being getting larger through the swelling of his muscles and such. Are you telling me you think he would only get sdc even though he is growing larger? Thats like saying little billy has as much sdc who is 3'2 and 40 lbs as tough Tony who is 6'5 and 300 lbs

The skeleton adds VERY little to the sdc that they gain. Or they would keep a alot more of the sdc when they detox then they do. That is the ONLY bonding of sdc that takes place...

Logan did not start out as a mdc creature the citizens of worm wood did yet again a bad comparison.

The Gel is right; my mistake.

I checked the Titan Juicer description one more time (I'd been going mostly by memory), and I was incorrect when I said in earlier posts that the process bonds massive amounts of SDC material into the body.

In fact, the bonus SDC is there ONLY to super-reinforce the bones of the recipient's skeleton, at which point the character's body is bulked up with hormonal treatments.

I therefore change my previous "ruling" to say that, assuming for the sake of argument that Wormwooders are otherwise exactly like normal humans right down to their physiology.....that if they survive the Titan Treatment, the end result is a creature with a skeleton reinforced with hundreds of SDC......surrounded by hundreds, possibly thousands, of hormone-induced MDC flesh and blood.

Just HOW big the Wormwooder Juicer might be able to get, though, would depend upon how much reinforcement those SDC particles will add to however much MDC a megadamage skeleton naturally has and how much additional reinforcement it might probide...which might ironically mean that in the end a Wormwood Juicer might not be much more massive than his SDC counterpart, after all (when we consider the 100-to-1 SDC/MDC ratio of those bonding particles).

You are absolutely right, Gelidus.....but I'll never admit it.

haha

I'll further add to my most recent post before this one and say that since the only purpose of the SDC particles is to reinforce an existing structure so that it can support more weight, I would say that regardless of the structure that those particles are bonding to -SDC Human Bone or MDC Wormwooder Bone -the end product is just as strong in a Wormwooder as it would be in a regular human.....and therefore, the hormone treatments can be enacted as usual, growing the Wormwood subject so the same basic dimensions as an 'ordinary' Titan Juicer......


........only with as much as 2000+ additional MDC.


Wormwooder Titan Juicer versus Adult Dragon, anyone? Place your bets!!

Well, for one, the SDC bonded materials wouldn't significantly strengthen the bone, so it wouldn't significantly improve his SDC. This is not an analogue to say...exercise...which would increase the body's own strength by that amount.

As such, I'd say that the increase would likely be MDC, but that the materials bonding to the bones wouldn't do diddly. Call it an additional 1500 MDC. I'd also add some interesting side effects, such as that his joints would stiffen due to the tissue's natural rejection of such items.

Maxi-Killer is the way to go. I'd still like to stat out a Monster Brodkil Maxi-Killer.

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Lenwen wrote:

gelidus wrote:How would this work as far as there mdc? Would the sdc gain translate to mdc? Or would they just get large amounts of sdc despite them being mdc?

I would rule that the system could work .. if the Humans from wormwood were not transformed from being in such an alien and magical enviorment for such a long long time.

They technically are human, yet .. they are not. Due to the magical energies of Worm Wood transforming them into what they currently are. (thats canon from worm wood too btw..)

Ergo the patient would take the SDC added damage (which is small amounts of MDC as damage instead of being added to the PC, there by quite possibly killing the patient.)

No it would not work in my world. But thats just my opinion.

I agree, not necessary either.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mercdog wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why are Wormwood humans MDC in the first place?

The planet's energies slowly alters them -or transforms them into MDC "on the spot" if they are conceived and born there.

Do they stay that way if they leave Wormwood?

Yes.

But if they have a kid elsewhere, that MDC quality doesn't get passed down.

Seconded. That's how I remember it too.

Hm.
If so, then I'd allow it.
Rifts Earth has the technology to give Brodkil demons MOM implants and cybernetics, so they can clearly work on MDC creatures.

As for the effects, I'd have to look over Wormwood and Juicer Uprising and mull things over a bit.
Offhand, I'd say one of the following might work:
-The SDC bonus divided by 10 is added as a MDC bonus
-The SDC bonus is converted to MDC at the normal ratio (100:1)

Of course, if the GM doesn't want it to work, there are any number of explanations:
-MDC flesh isn't as mutable as SDC flesh, and the sheer growth created by the Titan Juicer process kills the subject by squishing their insides together inside their stronger-than-steel skin.
-The drugs work differently on MDC flesh, or fail to work at all. IIRC, in Atlantis the bars serve some really strong drinks to MDC customers, because the normal stuff doesn't really work much for them.

Any way you slice it, the process would be a lot more expensive than normal.

I believe that is because of their bioregeneration and bonuses to save vs poision not because they are mdc

First Thing First.
The "metal" bonded to the Titan Juicer is Not List as being SDC material. We don't know what it is made of. This is left vague. BUT consider this...The new Metal Bones allow the Titan Juicer to withstand its Weight of Muscles, and to Inflict MDC Punches. The Flesh of a Titan Juicer is damaged (unless gloves are used), but the new Metal Bones remain Undamaged. It even says the new metal bonded bones are unbreakable doesnt it ?

Wormwood Human would not require the Metal Bonding Process. His Bones are strong enough to withstand the greater weight and Supernatural strength he will gain. His Body muscles would expand to Titan Juicer Size, the SDC would become MDC bonuses for them.

I would Call this a Varient Juicer Type myself. Maybe rename it the Kratos-Juicers (Kratos is theTitan of Strength and Power). No Metal-bonding to the bones, instead uses MDC Humans.

Now ... Picture a Sea-Titan undergoing this new MDC process !!
Thousands of MDC, Does not Breathe, Eat, drink...

Technically your a D-bee however human of a D-bee you might be. The SDC enhancements are not suited for your MDC body. At best the conversion wont hold, at worst you get poisoned and die.

I would say your only option is the D-Bee juicers listed in the Atlantis books. The mega juicer, while MDC, was made to make a SDC creature into a MDC creature; not improving on an MDC creature.

The Maxi-killer Juicer can enhance an MDC creature.
I would just add the Symbiote Armor to them maybe.

TechnoGothic wrote:The Maxi-killer Juicer can enhance an MDC creature.

I already said that.

Brodkil and Gargoyles are explicitly allowed to be Maxi-Killers - that's why I want to try a Monster Brodkil Maxi-Killer.

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