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I was thinking about the Witch OCC, and wondering why does the pact have to be with an evil being? What if the pact was with a good entity? Might be a nice twist to have a selfish character bind himself to a being of light, and be pushed into taking the high road.

Are there any canon examples of a good witch?
(Aside from The Wizard of Oz! )

I think most witches probably don't think themselves as totally evil, I'm sure there are plenty of good witches besides Glenda, that will tell you that.

I play a good one in one game.

the cloest I can think of our Odin's berserker's clearly they recieve some of Odin's essence and are given the berserk although I think the guy who wrote Pantheaon really should have read the prose edda and other Norse sagas before writing the OCC because they don't recieve many of the gifts Odin gave his Bererkers they justget the besererk. No transformation into a bear etc.

I think this mostly stems from the mythos that "Witches" are branded as being in the services of evil, demonic creatures who only aspire to cause misery and chaos...

However! With that being said, I do not see a reason at all that a Witch O.C.C. would HAVE to be bound to some sort of evil entity. It's just as likely that the Witch could be bound to something that is Good and/or at the very least "indifferent".

There are several mentions of potentially benevolent Alien Intelligences or beings of Equivalent power in the Megaverse. Viracocha would be an example, or Alistar Dunscon's musings over the Three Lords of Magic as another. Then there are references to Elementals of Alien Intelligence level power. These beings could, potentially, make a Witch... although it would strike me as a little odd.

It can be argued both ways though. I am sure there are those who would say if the empowering entity were a "Good" being... that character would become a Priest O.C.C. ... Not a Witch O.C.C.

Me? I think that Witches are just beings who have entered into the servitude of a greater entity and had power bestowed upon them in exchange for it. Under that ruling, one might consider the Witch a RIFTS equivalent of the Mystically Bestowed Class in Heroes Unlimited.

This would differentiate them from say Shifters. Shifters and Witches have a few common grounds... Except a Witch draws all their power from their benefactor, while a Shifter is already a spell caster who has merely entered into a contract with a supernatural entity of some kind or another for the sake of gaining... well... a little more.

... And I approve this message.

Mack wrote:I was thinking about the Witch OCC, and wondering why does the pact have to be with an evil being? What if the pact was with a good entity? Might be a nice twist to have a selfish character bind himself to a being of light, and be pushed into taking the high road.

Are there any canon examples of a good witch?
(Aside from The Wizard of Oz! )

There is a Good Witch in the "preamble" leading up to the Deevil/Demon War.

A good Summoner got in contact with, and made a Witch Pact with, none other than Thoth himself, and is currently providing intel on various aspects and places in the Minion War at Thoth's behest (even going to Hades or Dyval at some point and almost paying for it with his life -I forget which).

I look at this way, good Witches are either Shifters with that boon or effectively Priests of Light but their understanding is different.

Witch in a Wiccan sense would be some form of Priest of Light ore simple Lay worshiper.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:I look at this way, good Witches are either Shifters with that boon or effectively Priests of Light but their understanding is different.

Witch in a Wiccan sense would be some form of Priest of Light ore simple Lay worshiper.

Not true, Witches and Wiccans are not always one and the same. I wouldn't consider a Witch a priest of light either.

For the sake of this thread, let's define Witches according to Conversion Book 1, and leave other types (and Wiccans) out of it.

Mack wrote:Are there any canon examples of a good witch?
(Aside from The Wizard of Oz! )

As per the I'm bound to a SN being witch, I can't think of one.

As per the I'm a female mage witch, Hermini in the latest HP movie.

As per the real world, not possible.

The Shifter's/good Witch's name was "Alex," and his story begins in Rifts Dimension Book 10: Hades.

cornholioprime wrote:A good Summoner got in contact with, and made a Witch Pact with, none other than Thoth himself, and is currently providing intel on various aspects and places in the Minion War at Thoth's behest (even going to Hades or Dyval at some point and almost paying for it with his life -I forget which).

I took that to mean he took the Shifter pact.

The Beast wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:A good Summoner got in contact with, and made a Witch Pact with, none other than Thoth himself, and is currently providing intel on various aspects and places in the Minion War at Thoth's behest (even going to Hades or Dyval at some point and almost paying for it with his life -I forget which).

I took that to mean he took the Shifter pact.

I'm not quite sure what you mean......but the Text says that he was granted a Boon by Thoth.


(Guess that I'm going to have to bone up on my differences between Shifter's Boon and Witch's Pact; I thought that they essentially did the same thing. .)

cornholioprime wrote:

The Beast wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:A good Summoner got in contact with, and made a Witch Pact with, none other than Thoth himself, and is currently providing intel on various aspects and places in the Minion War at Thoth's behest (even going to Hades or Dyval at some point and almost paying for it with his life -I forget which).

I took that to mean he took the Shifter pact.

I'm not quite sure what you mean......but the Text says that he was granted a Boon by Thoth.


(Guess that I'm going to have to bone up on my differences between Shifter's Boon and Witch's Pact; I thought that they essentially did the same thing. .)

Witch's Pact has a choice of three different power options, and a choice of slaying a bunch of people in the AI's name, slaying a certain enemy, hand over 1st born, ect. AFAIK, a Shifter's Pact doesn't require any of that.

Ninjabunny wrote:

Emperor Ryu wrote:I like the idea of a bunch of good aligning witches, fighting for humanity to regain the world.

Why would they fight for humanity alone? Good Witches would most likely fight for all life on the planet.

Agreed. They would definitely be fighting against anyone who stood for humanity to regain the world. How misguided.

The evil witch would secretly be working with humanity to destroy all types of life that aren't human. Cause that is pretty evil.

Yes I regaining the land that has been stolen from you
such an evil cause

How exactly do you own that land? Ask the natives who it was stolen from, cause they were more correct in that you cannot own the land, it owns you.

If only I could evict those darn mosquitoes, ants, and martha forkin woodpeckers that keep peckin my damn house. The one that I'm still payin that bank that they actually have a document somewhere that says I have a right to who is on My land.

Whatevs.

Mack wrote:I was thinking about the Witch OCC, and wondering why does the pact have to be with an evil being? What if the pact was with a good entity? Might be a nice twist to have a selfish character bind himself to a being of light, and be pushed into taking the high road.

Are there any canon examples of a good witch?
(Aside from The Wizard of Oz! )

How would Oz be a canon example in Rifts? I think you should moderate yourself for suggesting that a Good Witch conversion would be from Oz...

Too funny. Need to step away.

Mack wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:I look at this way, good Witches are either Shifters with that boon or effectively Priests of Light but their understanding is different.

Witch in a Wiccan sense would be some form of Priest of Light ore simple Lay worshiper.

Not true, Witches and Wiccans are not always one and the same. I wouldn't consider a Witch a priest of light either.

For the sake of this thread, let's define Witches according to Conversion Book 1, and leave other types (and Wiccans) out of it.

Well if we're going to that then... No you can't have a good one because as defined in Conversion Book 1 you can't.

csbioborg wrote:Yes I regaining the land that has been stolen from you
such an evil cause

So then destroying the "Indians" in spirit west is good even though the land that was "stolen" from the CS actually belongs to the "Indians" from spirit west? Wait that still makes the CS bad.

I would have liked a separation of witches and priests. Right now it seems AIs favor witches, but can empower priests. Likewise the gods favor priests, but can empower witches(Atleast Ahriman has).
So if it had been only AIs do witches and Gods do priests it would have made more sense.

But I agree, good witches are definately an option. I could see a witch empowered by a elemental intelligence with a mini-elemental as a familiar.

Mack wrote:Are there any canon examples of a good witch?
(Aside from The Wizard of Oz! )

Not Palladium cannon either but wouldn't a good witch be like a Harry Potter that Gives some of his P.P.E. to some being of light?

The Pact of Selflessness
The Pact of Defenses
The Pact of Elegance

Shinitenshi wrote:

Emperor Ryu wrote:

bradshaw wrote:Not Palladium cannon either but wouldn't a good witch be like a Harry Potter that Gives some of his P.P.E. to some being of light?

The Pact of Selflessness
The Pact of Defenses
The Pact of Elegance

That's similar to my thoughts as well. It sort of reminded me of the t.v. series Charmed.

Which is about as accurate of a representation of a witch as Harry Potter and The Wizard of Oz are.

The Palladium Witches that are cannon are based off of gingerbread house dwelling old Fairytale women and black and white B-movies Kevin watched as a kid (most of them loosely inspired on the 14th through 18th century witch hunts.) They have nothing to do with any duotheistic religion or Neopagan beliefs and never did.

Emperor Ryu wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:How would Oz be a canon example in Rifts?

I believe Mack is excluding any movie references for this topic.

You take me WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too seriously.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:I look at this way, good Witches are either Shifters with that boon or effectively Priests of Light but their understanding is different.

Witch in a Wiccan sense would be some form of Priest of Light ore simple Lay worshiper.

Not true, Witches and Wiccans are not always one and the same. I wouldn't consider a Witch a priest of light either.

Sorry but read what I wrote, it make perfect sense in the context written.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:I look at this way, good Witches are either Shifters with that boon or effectively Priests of Light but their understanding is different.

Witch in a Wiccan sense would be some form of Priest of Light ore simple Lay worshiper.

Not true, Witches and Wiccans are not always one and the same. I wouldn't consider a Witch a priest of light either.

Sorry but read what I wrote, it make perfect sense in the context written.

I am reading what you wrote and I guess I am not understanding what you mean. Wiccans are Wiccans not Witches so I don't understand what you mean by Witch in a Wiccan sense.

Ok let me Rephase in the Wiccans I have known in my life and their rather large groups of friends who have used Witch to Identify themselves, they would be more like Priestess/priests of light.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:
Saitou Hajime Wrote: I look at this way, good Witches are either Shifters with that boon or effectively Priests of Light but their understanding is different.

Witch in a Wiccan sense would be some form of Priest of Light ore simple Lay worshiper. (End of Saitou Hajima's Writing)


Not true, Witches and Wiccans are not always one and the same. I wouldn't consider a Witch a priest of light either.

Sorry but read what I wrote, it make perfect sense in the context written.

I am reading what you wrote and I guess I am not understanding what you mean. Wiccans are Wiccans not Witches so I don't understand what you mean by Witch in a Wiccan sense.

Ok let me Rephase in the Wiccans I have known in my life and their rather large groups of friends who have used Witch to Identify themselves, they would be more like Priestess/priests of light.

Alright, it just seemed strange to me. Lumping Witches in with Wiccans to me is like saying Protestants and Catholics are the same. Most of the Wiccans I know do not call themselves Witches since they are not the same thing, so that is why I was confused.

(Sigh...)...
Sorry for the "slight diversion" here:

Touching on Wicca real quick: We Wiccan's are not a Centralized, Monalithic, Organized Religion. Some are Solitaires, or practice in small Circles or even in large Circles. We follow the Path that is revealed to us by the "God & Goddess" (Some call the Godd & Goddess by different names: Osiris/Isis, Zeus/Hera, Sky/Earth, etc.). Some call ourselves Wiccans, Witches, Druids, Shamans, or whatever feels right. Please, please, please don't try to cookie cutter us. And please, can we leave Real Religions (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Wiccan or any other) out of this. For reference I have included the following links on Wiccans & Pagans in the Military (The Military has officially recognized Wiccans, Druids & several other "Pagan" religions. Unfortunately the "Handbook" has been pulled from the Web and is no longer openly available. The Military has finally locked down their Web Sites):

1. Lots of still current info, despite referencing a 1990 document. I don't think the address mentioned is a valid one though: At least none of the Wiccans in the Military that I know had anything to do with them. (shrug): http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm
2. A 5-page article: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5686682/wicca_for_army_chaplains.html
3. Military Pagan Network, Inc. - Just what it says: http://www.milpagan.org/index.html

I'll step down from my Oak Stump now. Thank you for "listening."

And before this thread get's moded...onwards...
______________________________________________________


Now, back to the Real reason for this thread: A Good Witch in Palladium/Rifts -- I don't see a reason why there can't be a "Good" Witch. As Ninjabunny Emperor Ryu (edited 27 Dec '10) pointed out, in the Conversion Book 1 (p. 55), "1. A direct link and willing allegiance to the supernatural (often evil)." It's "often evil"...not always. Unfortunately, what muddies the waters is the second element, "2. Empowerment by that supernatural evil." I would say that due to the "often evil" comment in #1, that the "evil" comment in #2 is trumped.

Some of the Gifts might be different. Demon Familiar would become something more appropriate to the Supernatural Entity the White Witch is bonding with. There wouldn't be Blood Sacrifices for Minor Pacts nor other "Evil" acts required. It would require some reworking, but I think it would be worth it to include in the game. Now, would most people know the difference between a "Bad" & "Good" Witch? Probably not, and that is where good Roleplayng comes in. More than most, the "Good" Witch has to lead by example, despite the trials of life. And this is where Really Good Roleplaying opportunities come in.


~ N

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:
(Sigh...)...
Sorry for the "slight diversion" here:

Touching on Wicca real quick: We Wiccan's are not a Centralized, Monalithic, Organized Religion. Some are Solitaires, or practice in small Circles or even in large Circles. We follow the Path that is revealed to us by the "God & Goddess" (Some call the Godd & Goddess by different names: Osiris/Isis, Zeus/Hera, Sky/Earth, etc.). Some call ourselves Wiccans, Witches, Druids, Shamans, or whatever feels right. Please, please, please don't try to cookie cutter us. And please, can we leave Real Religions (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Wiccan or any other) out of this. For reference I have included the following links on Wiccans & Pagans in the Military (The Military has officially recognized Wiccans, Druids & several other "Pagan" religions. Unfortunately the "Handbook" has been pulled from the Web and is no longer openly available. The Military has finally locked down their Web Sites):

1. Lots of still current info, despite referencing a 1990 document. I don't think the address mentioned is a valid one though: At least none of the Wiccans in the Military that I know had anything to do with them. (shrug): http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm
2. A 5-page article: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5686682/wicca_for_army_chaplains.html
3. Military Pagan Network, Inc. - Just what it says: http://www.milpagan.org/index.html

I'll step down from my Oak Stump now. Thank you for "listening."

And before this thread get's moded...onwards...
______________________________________________________


Now, back to the Real reason for this thread: A Good Witch in Palladium/Rifts -- I don't see a reason why there can't be a "Good" Witch. As Ninjabunny pointed out, in the Conversion Book 1 (p. 55), "1. A direct link and willing allegiance to the supernatural (often evil)." It's "often evil"...not always. Unfortunately, what muddies the waters is the second element, "2. Empowerment by that supernatural evil." I would say that due to the "often evil" comment in #1, that the "evil" comment in #2 is trumped.

Some of the Gifts might be different. Demon Familiar would become something more appropriate to the Supernatural Entity the White Witch is bonding with. There wouldn't be Blood Sacrifices for Minor Pacts nor other "Evil" acts required. It would require some reworking, but I think it would be worth it to include in the game. Now, would most people know the difference between a "Bad" & "Good" Witch? Probably not, and that is where good Roleplayng comes in. More than most, the "Good" Witch has to lead by example, despite the trials of life. And this is where Really Good Roleplaying opportunities come in.


~ N

Just to touch on what you said though, not all Witches are Wiccan. This was the point I was trying to make to the poster.

(Shrug) I've met both. Some Witches are Wiccans, some Witches aren't Wiccans, some Wiccans are Witches and some Wiccans aren't Witches. It can get confusing, can't it.

Shinitenshi wrote:I do agree with what you said on "Good" Witches in game, especially the part about people not being able to tell the difference.

Of course. A similar "discussion" used to go on about "Paladins" in the "other game": Can they be Good? Do they have to be Lawful Good? (Edited 27 Dec '10)


~ N

Shinitenshi wrote:Lumping Witches in with Wiccans to me is like saying Protestants and Catholics are the same.

Even that comparison is too close, since Protestants and Catholics worship the same God.
Wiccans are one kind of witch, but not the kind that Palladium is talking about.
Just like Catholic Priests are one kind of priest, but not the kind that Palladium is talking about in their Priest OCC.
Complaining that Palladium Witches aren't like Wiccans is like complaining that Rifts Priests aren't like Catholic Priests.

"Wait a minute! Catholic priestss don't cast spells! They don't all know how to Dance! Most of them don't know Land Navigation, two different WPs, and Hand to Hand Basic! That's nothing like a Catholic Priest!"

It's a silly complaint that has no bearing in reality, and is only based on some kind of huge misunderstanding about the terms being used.

Most of the Wiccans I know do not call themselves Witches since they are not the same thing, so that is why I was confused.

The whole "Wiccans are witches" thing comes from Gerald Gardner's desire to use controversy to promote his religion back in the 1950s. England repealed the law against Witchcraft, so Gardner came out with his alleged ancient religion that was supposed to be witchcraft.
Not a bad PR move in the short run, because it allowed him to draw a large pool of people who wanted to feel persecuted and edgy. People alienated from Christianity (and let's face it, that's a heck of a lot of people) could rebel against Christianity while retaining the perception of moral high-ground by joining what was supposed to be an ancient religion that had faced long-standing persecution by the Christian majority.
The theory put forward was that the word "Witch" was a variation of the word "Wicca" or "Wicce," which simply meant "Wise One" in The Old Language. When Christianity invaded and took over Europe, they went about destroying local pagans and smearing their good name, spreading lies and misconceptions. Supposedly the old "Witches ride broomsticks" was based on an ancient fertility rite where wiccans would dance around a fire, then jump into the air with a broom to predict how high the crops would grow that year. The old "Witches have sex with Satan" came from a misunderstanding or deliberate corruption of the Wiccan Great Rite, and the wiccan god (aka "The Horned One") having a resemblance to certain Christian depictions of The Devil (who happened to look a heck of a lot like Pan, as did The Horned One).
And so on. It was all just a huge misunderstanding, deliberate or not, where the innocent Wiccans got painted as Satanists when they didn't even believe in Satan.
So when Gardner's religion of Wicca "came out of hiding," anybody who wanted to be controversial, feel persecuted, hold a grudge against Christians, and/or hold feelings of moral superiority, could go around saying, "I'm a witch!"
Which would stir up controversy and shocked exclamations, to which the "Witch" could respond by patiently explaining that everything the other person knows about witches is false, and that witches don't even believe in Satan, much less worship him, and in fact are a long-time persecuted minority of white people among white people.
Naturally, this appealed to so many people that the religion took off strong and grew pretty quickly, likely helped by getting to dance around fires at midnight and generally cavort around naked.

Please note, this is nowhere near the entirety of Wicca, which is a perfectly legitimate religion, regardless of its origins. In fact, it is one of my top 5 favorite religions of all time, so don't feel that I'm trying to bash anybody here.
Right now we're talking about the whole Wiccan/Witch relationship, so that's what I'm talking about. If anybody wants to ask me about the good parts of Wicca, I'll have a good dealt to talk about there too; I'm pretty well-versed in the subject.

Anyway, in spite of Gardner's version of things, no actual Wiccan documents or artifacts have ever been found (to my knowledge) that predate the 1950s.

Meanwhile, Wiccans actually bear little to no resemblance to what had previously been described as Witches: Christians who made pacts with The Devil, often including sexual intercourse to seal the deal, in order to gain magical powers that they used for evil purposes.
And THIS is the kind of witch that actually DOES have some historical evidence of existing, not to mention that it makes sense within the basic nature of humanity that there would be a significant (though nowhere near as prominent as the Church wanted to believe) number of people who would rebel against Christianity and/or try to promote their own self-interest by worshiping the enemy of the Christians.

And off to the side, there emerged (or, according to them, re-emerged), the Italian school of witch craft, Stregheria, which was popularized by Raven Grimassi in the 1980s. It's not wicca, it's not Christianity. It's based more on American and European views of what ancient Greek witches might have done. There's still a Goddess that's identified with the moon, as in Wicca, and a God known as "The Horned One," but there are some significant differences between Stregheria and Wicca that make them separate entities. Like Wicca, a lot of their lore seems based on the theory that there were ancient witch-cults operating in Europe that were mistaken for Satanists by Christians, and that some of these goddess-worshiping cults go back to neolithic times, a theory put forward by Margaret Murray in her later mostly discredited writings.
Other than that, I don't know much about Stragheria, so I can't explain much more about them.

Just to make things a bit more muddled and complex, Anton LaVey jumped into the mix.
About a decade after Gardner, LaVey decided to make his own religion that could use the same basic schtick of labeling themselves with the title of a Christian Bad Guy ("Satanist," in this case), and get to feel persecuted and self-righteous when everybody "misunderstood" them and thought that they were devil worshipers, when they didn't even believe in the Devil at all. Again, they get to rebel against Christianity by doing "the opposite," but really doing pretty much the same thing.
After writing The Satanic Bible, in which he proclaimed that there is no God or Satan at all, so everybody with any sense should follow his self-serving religion of the Ego, LaVey followed up with another book, The Compleat Witch, which was later renamed The Satanic Witch. In this work, LaVey gives a how-to manual for Satanist women on how to use sex and sexuality as a weapon, how to use magic for selfish purposes, and so on.

So currently, there are four main kinds of witches:
1. The Christian witch, who make pacts with the Devil and casts evil magic.
2. The Wiccans, who are not Christian, have not made pacts with anybody and who are, whatever their origins and stereotypes, generally good and moral people (well, as much as any other religion). They (in theory, anyway), only use magic for good, because the religion includes heavy repercussions for immoral activities, especially when magic is involved.
3. Other Pagan Witches, like the Strega. There are quite a few neo-pagans out there that consider themselves witches, but who aren't either Strega or Wiccans, but are so similar that I'm going to lump them in here. Their use of magic isn't as restricted as with the Wiccans, but it's not inherently evil like the Christian Witches.
4. Satanic Witches, which use magic for selfishness and manipulation, much like the Christian Witches, but who officially don't believe in God or The Devil.

Of all these types, it's pretty clear that Palladium was describing the traditional Christian Witch, who is somebody who makes pacts with evil powers in order to gain magical abilities.
That's why Palladium's Witches are typically evil or aligned with evil entities.

One of my few house rules is that there can be the exceedingly rare good Witch.

Shinitenshi wrote:I wasn't complaining that Pally Witches weren't like Wiccans I never said they are.

Oh, I never said that you did say that, and I never thought it either.

I was just clarifying that not all Witches are Wiccan, which had nothing to do with Pally Witches. Since none of this has to do with the actual topic I am not even going to point out all the things that are so very wrong about your explanation of Wicca and Witches.

Feel free to PM me if you think I was wrong about any of it, and/or wish to discuss the matter any further.

Saitou Hajime wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Saitou Hajime wrote:I look at this way, good Witches are either Shifters with that boon or effectively Priests of Light but their understanding is different.

Witch in a Wiccan sense would be some form of Priest of Light ore simple Lay worshiper.

Not true, Witches and Wiccans are not always one and the same. I wouldn't consider a Witch a priest of light either.

Sorry but read what I wrote, it make perfect sense in the context written.

I am reading what you wrote and I guess I am not understanding what you mean. Wiccans are Wiccans not Witches so I don't understand what you mean by Witch in a Wiccan sense.

Ok let me Rephase in the Wiccans I have known in my life and their rather large groups of friends who have used Witch to Identify themselves, they would be more like Priestess/priests of light.

But they are not priests of light they are closer to druids or other nature elemental worshipper.

Mack wrote:I was thinking about the Witch OCC, and wondering why does the pact have to be with an evil being? What if the pact was with a good entity? Might be a nice twist to have a selfish character bind himself to a being of light, and be pushed into taking the high road.

Are there any canon examples of a good witch?
(Aside from The Wizard of Oz! )

Michael Landon in Highway to Heaven.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Ok let me Rephase in the Wiccans I have known in my life and their rather large groups of friends who have used Witch to Identify themselves, they would be more like Priestess/priests of light.

But they are not priests of light they are closer to druids or other nature elemental worshipper.[/quote]

In Rifts, the closest applicable OCC I can think of would be Mystic.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Ok let me Rephase in the Wiccans I have known in my life and their rather large groups of friends who have used Witch to Identify themselves, they would be more like Priestess/priests of light.

But they are not priests of light they are closer to druids or other nature elemental worshipper.

In Rifts, the closest applicable OCC I can think of would be Mystic.

I think Dryad would be another good one.[/quote]

Dryad is a race not a class... did you mean Druid?

Emperor Ryu wrote:I'm really starting to seriously thinking that we should have an expansion on the Witches O.C.C., like a sourcebook, or a large section in a future Rifter issue.

Yeah... cuz there important and PB doesn't want to insult Wiccan's by not statting them out like PB does with all of the middle East.

Why? Witch is what it says if you don't think it matches there are enough other classes (Druid, Mystic, etc...) to provide someone that wants to be something else without granting this exceptionally minor class with any more space that could be used for something more important like another swimsuit edition or cool construction rules for vehicles or something that has been completely unheard of and not a tweak or rewrite of an already existing class. Hey even the return of Perez's comic would be better... of course all of that is just my opinion.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:
(Sigh...)...
Sorry for the "slight diversion" here:

Touching on Wicca real quick: We Wiccan's are not a Centralized, Monalithic, Organized Religion. Some are Solitaires, or practice in small Circles or even in large Circles. We follow the Path that is revealed to us by the "God & Goddess" (Some call the Godd & Goddess by different names: Osiris/Isis, Zeus/Hera, Sky/Earth, etc.). Some call ourselves Wiccans, Witches, Druids, Shamans, or whatever feels right. Please, please, please don't try to cookie cutter us. And please, can we leave Real Religions (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Wiccan or any other) out of this. For reference I have included the following links on Wiccans & Pagans in the Military (The Military has officially recognized Wiccans, Druids & several other "Pagan" religions. Unfortunately the "Handbook" has been pulled from the Web and is no longer openly available. The Military has finally locked down their Web Sites):

1. Lots of still current info, despite referencing a 1990 document. I don't think the address mentioned is a valid one though: At least none of the Wiccans in the Military that I know had anything to do with them. (shrug): http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm
2. A 5-page article: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5686682/wicca_for_army_chaplains.html
3. Military Pagan Network, Inc. - Just what it says: http://www.milpagan.org/index.html

I'll step down from my Oak Stump now. Thank you for "listening."

And before this thread get's moded...onwards...
______________________________________________________


Now, back to the Real reason for this thread: A Good Witch in Palladium/Rifts -- I don't see a reason why there can't be a "Good" Witch. As Ninjabunny pointed out, in the Conversion Book 1 (p. 55), "1. A direct link and willing allegiance to the supernatural (often evil)." It's "often evil"...not always. Unfortunately, what muddies the waters is the second element, "2. Empowerment by that supernatural evil." I would say that due to the "often evil" comment in #1, that the "evil" comment in #2 is trumped.

Some of the Gifts might be different. Demon Familiar would become something more appropriate to the Supernatural Entity the White Witch is bonding with. There wouldn't be Blood Sacrifices for Minor Pacts nor other "Evil" acts required. It would require some reworking, but I think it would be worth it to include in the game. Now, would most people know the difference between a "Bad" & "Good" Witch? Probably not, and that is where good Roleplayng comes in. More than most, the "Good" Witch has to lead by example, despite the trials of life. And this is where Really Good Roleplaying opportunities come in.


~ N

Just to touch on what you said though, not all Witches are Wiccan. This was the point I was trying to make to the poster.

(Shrug) I've met both. Some Witches are Wiccans, some Witches aren't Wiccans, some Wiccans are Witches and some Wiccans aren't Witches. It can get confusing, can't it.

Shinitenshi wrote:I do agree with what you said on "Good" Witches in game, especially the part about people not being able to tell the difference.

Of course. A similar "discussion" used to go on about "Paladins" in the "other game": Can they be Good?


~ N

I thought Paladins were good?

Paladins in the Megaverse...
Palladin O.C.C.
Alignments: A palladin can be of any alignment; good, selfish, or evil.
However, most palladins are principled, scrupulous, or aberrant
(evil, but with a code of honor).

It goes on to say that diabolic exist and are usually considered anti-paladins the write up is the same reguardless.

NOW I don't think that is what was being referred to as the other game is in quotes which would make me think they are not refering to PFRPG as the "other" but D&D which also changed their rules as all gods of all alignments may have a paladin.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:I wasn't complaining that Pally Witches weren't like Wiccans I never said they are.

Oh, I never said that you did say that, and I never thought it either.

I was just clarifying that not all Witches are Wiccan, which had nothing to do with Pally Witches. Since none of this has to do with the actual topic I am not even going to point out all the things that are so very wrong about your explanation of Wicca and Witches.

Feel free to PM me if you think I was wrong about any of it, and/or wish to discuss the matter any further.

So... did Shin? PM me too Shin I want to know. Granted I'm Christian and even tell Mormons to only talk to me about religion if they want to here what is wrong. But I've was Bahai, Athiest, Deist and Agnostic. I've had Wiccan, Satanic (not Settites they're just wrong), Druids and Mormon friends... kinda strange tough, I've never had a Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish (but I do have a Hebrew friend) or Hindu friend. Hmm...

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:
(Sigh...)...
Sorry for the "slight diversion" here:

Touching on Wicca real quick: We Wiccan's are not a Centralized, Monalithic, Organized Religion. Some are Solitaires, or practice in small Circles or even in large Circles. We follow the Path that is revealed to us by the "God & Goddess" (Some call the Godd & Goddess by different names: Osiris/Isis, Zeus/Hera, Sky/Earth, etc.). Some call ourselves Wiccans, Witches, Druids, Shamans, or whatever feels right. Please, please, please don't try to cookie cutter us. And please, can we leave Real Religions (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Wiccan or any other) out of this. For reference I have included the following links on Wiccans & Pagans in the Military (The Military has officially recognized Wiccans, Druids & several other "Pagan" religions. Unfortunately the "Handbook" has been pulled from the Web and is no longer openly available. The Military has finally locked down their Web Sites):

1. Lots of still current info, despite referencing a 1990 document. I don't think the address mentioned is a valid one though: At least none of the Wiccans in the Military that I know had anything to do with them. (shrug): http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm
2. A 5-page article: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5686682/wicca_for_army_chaplains.html
3. Military Pagan Network, Inc. - Just what it says: http://www.milpagan.org/index.html

I'll step down from my Oak Stump now. Thank you for "listening."

And before this thread get's moded...onwards...
______________________________________________________


Now, back to the Real reason for this thread: A Good Witch in Palladium/Rifts -- I don't see a reason why there can't be a "Good" Witch. As Ninjabunny pointed out, in the Conversion Book 1 (p. 55), "1. A direct link and willing allegiance to the supernatural (often evil)." It's "often evil"...not always. Unfortunately, what muddies the waters is the second element, "2. Empowerment by that supernatural evil." I would say that due to the "often evil" comment in #1, that the "evil" comment in #2 is trumped.

Some of the Gifts might be different. Demon Familiar would become something more appropriate to the Supernatural Entity the White Witch is bonding with. There wouldn't be Blood Sacrifices for Minor Pacts nor other "Evil" acts required. It would require some reworking, but I think it would be worth it to include in the game. Now, would most people know the difference between a "Bad" & "Good" Witch? Probably not, and that is where good Roleplayng comes in. More than most, the "Good" Witch has to lead by example, despite the trials of life. And this is where Really Good Roleplaying opportunities come in.


~ N

Just to touch on what you said though, not all Witches are Wiccan. This was the point I was trying to make to the poster.

(Shrug) I've met both. Some Witches are Wiccans, some Witches aren't Wiccans, some Wiccans are Witches and some Wiccans aren't Witches. It can get confusing, can't it.

Shinitenshi wrote:I do agree with what you said on "Good" Witches in game, especially the part about people not being able to tell the difference.

Of course. A similar "discussion" used to go on about "Paladins" in the "other game": Can they be Good?


~ N

I thought Paladins were good?

My bad. I was watchin' my two little one's when I wrote this. Distractions galore. The end part should read as follows:

"Do they have to be Lawful Good?"

I have corrected the original text. Again, I apologize.


~ N

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Dryad is a race not a class... did you mean Druid?

there are several types of druids in rifts england. one of those types of druid is called a dryad. presumably it was a reference to the specific dryad class, since druid is a bit non-specific (for example, i doubt the millenium druid would be a good fit, nor a schatach...)

Zer0 Kay wrote:
But they are not priests of light they are closer to druids or other nature elemental worshipper.

I my experienced they do worship gods or at least recognize gods.

Shinitenshi wrote:

Emperor Ryu wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:As Ninjabunny pointed out, in the Conversion Book 1 (p. 55)

Did I miss a previous thread, before I joined this forum, that covered a similar topic to this one, on playable good alignment witches, from Rifts Conversion Book 1?

Nads mis-qouted, they said Ninjabunny when it was you who who was talking about Conversion book 1.

I will fall on my sword now. (Thunk... )


~ N

P.S.: Original Changed.

P.P.S.: Somebody just shoot me...

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:

Shinitenshi wrote:

Nadrakas wrote:
(Sigh...)...
Sorry for the "slight diversion" here:

Touching on Wicca real quick: We Wiccan's are not a Centralized, Monalithic, Organized Religion. Some are Solitaires, or practice in small Circles or even in large Circles. We follow the Path that is revealed to us by the "God & Goddess" (Some call the Godd & Goddess by different names: Osiris/Isis, Zeus/Hera, Sky/Earth, etc.). Some call ourselves Wiccans, Witches, Druids, Shamans, or whatever feels right. Please, please, please don't try to cookie cutter us. And please, can we leave Real Religions (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Wiccan or any other) out of this. For reference I have included the following links on Wiccans & Pagans in the Military (The Military has officially recognized Wiccans, Druids & several other "Pagan" religions. Unfortunately the "Handbook" has been pulled from the Web and is no longer openly available. The Military has finally locked down their Web Sites):

1. Lots of still current info, despite referencing a 1990 document. I don't think the address mentioned is a valid one though: At least none of the Wiccans in the Military that I know had anything to do with them. (shrug): http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_usbk.htm
2. A 5-page article: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5686682/wicca_for_army_chaplains.html
3. Military Pagan Network, Inc. - Just what it says: http://www.milpagan.org/index.html

I'll step down from my Oak Stump now. Thank you for "listening."

And before this thread get's moded...onwards...
______________________________________________________


Now, back to the Real reason for this thread: A Good Witch in Palladium/Rifts -- I don't see a reason why there can't be a "Good" Witch. As Ninjabunny pointed out, in the Conversion Book 1 (p. 55), "1. A direct link and willing allegiance to the supernatural (often evil)." It's "often evil"...not always. Unfortunately, what muddies the waters is the second element, "2. Empowerment by that supernatural evil." I would say that due to the "often evil" comment in #1, that the "evil" comment in #2 is trumped.

Some of the Gifts might be different. Demon Familiar would become something more appropriate to the Supernatural Entity the White Witch is bonding with. There wouldn't be Blood Sacrifices for Minor Pacts nor other "Evil" acts required. It would require some reworking, but I think it would be worth it to include in the game. Now, would most people know the difference between a "Bad" & "Good" Witch? Probably not, and that is where good Roleplayng comes in. More than most, the "Good" Witch has to lead by example, despite the trials of life. And this is where Really Good Roleplaying opportunities come in.


~ N

Just to touch on what you said though, not all Witches are Wiccan. This was the point I was trying to make to the poster.

(Shrug) I've met both. Some Witches are Wiccans, some Witches aren't Wiccans, some Wiccans are Witches and some Wiccans aren't Witches. It can get confusing, can't it.

Shinitenshi wrote:I do agree with what you said on "Good" Witches in game, especially the part about people not being able to tell the difference.

Of course. A similar "discussion" used to go on about "Paladins" in the "other game": Can they be Good?


~ N

I thought Paladins were good?

Paladins in the Megaverse...
Palladin O.C.C.
Alignments: A palladin can be of any alignment; good, selfish, or evil.
However, most palladins are principled, scrupulous, or aberrant
(evil, but with a code of honor).

It goes on to say that diabolic exist and are usually considered anti-paladins the write up is the same reguardless.

NOW I don't think that is what was being referred to as the other game is in quotes which would make me think they are not refering to PFRPG as the "other" but D&D which also changed their rules as all gods of all alignments may have a paladin.

"Other Game" = AD&D. Obviously before 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 or any other iteration afterwards. Originally they were only allowed to be LG (Again, I originally misquoted...thwacking head against floor - bad, bad, bad Nadrakas...). An article in the Dragon Magazine gave optional rules for Paladins of other Alignments (Anti-Paladins & seven others). The new editions of D&D (3.0/3.5. I think 4.0 still does; don't know, as I don't play "Tactical Combat D&D") allow Paladins of any alignment.

As several of the posters here have expressed agreement with the idea of a Good Witch, or perhaps a "Non-Evil" Witch, how would you Stat the O.C.C. out? Would you keep the Abilities/Powers exactly the same? Or, instead, would you make them different? (Trying to get back on to Mack's original topic )

~ N

Emperor Ryu wrote:

Nadrakas wrote: I will fall on my sword now. (Thunk... )

*Pulls the sword from Nadrakas's body, and casts the Resurrection Spell*

(Sigh) Darn...I was hoping for a Mega-Powerful Undead Empowering Spell.

Thank you...


~ N

Shinitenshi wrote:N- No problem, I was just confused, thanks for clarifying that for me
Zero- As Shark-Force pointed out I was indeed speaking of the Dryad in WB 3.
Saitou- You can be a Druid or Nature Worshiper and still worship or recognize a God.

We can honestly both be right in this case.

Emperor Ryu wrote:As far as the Witch O.C.C., or any other O.C.C. and R.C.C., is described in the Rifts Conversion Book 1, as being evil aligning beings, it doesn't necessarily have to always be that way. Given that the evidence that not all witchery is based on an evil perspective. It is very viable and quite playable to have a good aligning Witch O.C.C. An alignment can change, just like Emperor Prosek. Hopefully, he can change for the better as well. After all, he is only human.

While not saying so directly, the text of a Witch Pact strongly implies that, just as doing "evil" can strip you of your powers as a Cosmo-Knight due to the intimacy of the Link, so too can Witches who start acting "out of alignment" be stripped of their powers at a moment's notice, if not also tortured and killed for their insolence.

You wouldn't be required to to do various acts of Evil by your Deity before you are allowed to "advance" as a Witch, and have to be a reliable force for the evil goals of your Empowering Deity in order to make said advancements, unless that evil Deity or Alien Intelligence could somehow 'see into your soul' or something to make sure that you were staying on the right path.

Nadrakas wrote:"Other Game" = AD&D. Obviously before 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 or any other iteration afterwards. Originally they were only allowed to be LG (Again, I originally misquoted...thwacking head against floor - bad, bad, bad Nadrakas...). An article in the Dragon Magazine gave optional rules for Paladins of other Alignments (Anti-Paladins & seven others). The new editions of D&D (3.0/3.5. I think 4.0 still does; don't know, as I don't play "Tactical Combat D&D") allow Paladins of any alignment.

As several of the posters here have expressed agreement with the idea of a Good Witch, or perhaps a "Non-Evil" Witch, how would you Stat the O.C.C. out? Would you keep the Abilities/Powers exactly the same? Or, instead, would you make them different? (Trying to get back on to Mack's original topic )

~ N

And yet another Dragon article gave alternate alignments like Lawful Stupid... but I think that was an April fools issue . Hey why don't we give the NE Witch a nick name now... Gallindas.