Any word when the sourcebooks will be out?

[auyl]

Hi, I'm recently new to the Palladium site and I saw that there are supposed to be two sourcebooks coming out for BTS. They've been there for a couple of months and I've heard nothing in the weekly updates about them. How long have they been there? Has there been any talk at all about releasing them sometime?

[Cybermancer]

It's more likely that the world will end in December 2012 then you'll see new BtS supplements before then.

[Jasper]

Yay! My favourite topic!

No. No news on when the supplements when come out, if ever.

It makes me a sad panda.

[mrloucifer]

There are several past topics that go into this... at great length in fact... about when these babies may be born. If you dont find recent ones let me know and I'll repost my personal stance on the subject in this topic.

[gaby]

Bts is too good for Palladium books to just forget it.

[jaymz]

er.....this topic may get some peoples blood curdling....

[Lord Z]

Outside of the two promised sourcebooks, I know of two other BtS projects currently in production outside of the Palladium office? The odds of either of these new projects seeing print in 2011 are not good, but they are out there getting done.

[Jasper]

From what I understand BTS is Kevin's pet project. I appreciate that but if he isn't going to write the books I hope he gives it out to freelancers.
Regarding other books being worked on the problem is the two planned sourcebooks for magic and monsters are far, far more important than anything else so I don't see how other sourcebooks are being worked on without the those books being out.
At this stage I'll be happy with anything. BTS is the only Palladium product I buy now... that means I don't buy any Palladium stuff because nothing comes out for BTS lol :*(.

[Sir Neil]

How long have they been there?

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!

. . . *sniff* *snicker* . . .

Ahem. Several years.

[ScottBernard]

Was it 2006 BTS2 came out? Which would now make it 5 years?

[Jasper]

It came out in Spring 2005.

[Her0man0]

has anyone on this thread created any rules for magic in BTS, id really love to play a mage, Psychics and Natural geniuses are getting boring... and over done, i love the way they did ISP to explain it in a modern world but now we need PPE

[lather]

BTS-1 arcanists were not like other mage classes in Palladium. Are you looking for something like that (do you have BTS-1 I suppose is the first question I should ask) or to drop in magic from another game and nerf the mage's P.P.E. pool that requires proximity to increase as with I.S.P.?

[Lord Z]

I agree that the magic system in 1st edition still works pretty darn well. It's a great buy at RPGNow.com.

If you are looking for new classes for 2nd edition, here is one option. I made such a class but cut it out of the Court of Tarot article to save space. You can still find it in the errata thread and errata article at NexusNine.net.

[Her0man0]

I dont have BTS1 but i do plan on checking it out now that its available at the RPG.now, but i am looking for something with the PPE acting like the ISP in BTS2, Ive been planning on nerfing my own like you suggested but was hoping to take the lazy way out.

[lather]

I've never done it but I'm thinking the simplest would be to use a modifier. Multiply the P.P.E. cost of each spell by 5 (or divide the PC's P.P.E. pool by 5) or something along those lines.

[Her0man0]

well, im going to try a PPE multiplier like with the ISP, when the mage is close to the supernatural there PPE starts raising,

Supernatural Creatures and situations would cause a boost
Ley lines and nexus points along with solstice, full moon, and planitary alignments would cause a boost, how much would depend on the time of year and location

ritual sacrifice would get double PPE at time of death but this would have to be a long and drawn out process

magic items could store spells or PPE to be used at a moments notice (ala dresden files)

A bit of work but nothing too difficult

Its the spells that have me worried

Im thinking of reducing the spells known to a real low number and making certain spells ritual spells that arent already and with very few being the kindle that can be cast at a moments notice

or

make generic effects that are powered by the wizards will and PPE, the actual appearance of the spell would depend on the wizard and the power of it would depend on how much PPE was channeled into it, the appearance would depend on the personality behind it

With this a character character would get to choose from several generic abilities that would act like skills(?)

For example lets say that the character gets 3 effects at first level
first choice is Blast, with this blast the character gets to choose what it is made of, fire, ice, darkness, or whatever, this "Spell" would do 1d4 damage per 3 or 5 PPE put into it or something and have a base skill of like 70% +2% per level or something,

Then the second choice is a Shield and they choose to have it made of force and the size and shape and SDC of it would require different expenditures of PPE depending on what the character wants and the character would have have an 80% chance of activating it......

Not sure if i like the skill part but im still brainstorming here

[Jasper]

well, im going to try a PPE multiplier like with the ISP, when the mage is close to the supernatural there PPE starts raising,

Supernatural Creatures and situations would cause a boost
Ley lines and nexus points along with solstice, full moon, and planitary alignments would cause a boost, how much would depend on the time of year and location

ritual sacrifice would get double PPE at time of death but this would have to be a long and drawn out process

magic items could store spells or PPE to be used at a moments notice (ala dresden files)

A bit of work but nothing too difficult

Its the spells that have me worried

Im thinking of reducing the spells known to a real low number and making certain spells ritual spells that arent already and with very few being the kindle that can be cast at a moments notice

or

make generic effects that are powered by the wizards will and PPE, the actual appearance of the spell would depend on the wizard and the power of it would depend on how much PPE was channeled into it, the appearance would depend on the personality behind it

With this a character character would get to choose from several generic abilities that would act like skills(?)

For example lets say that the character gets 3 effects at first level
first choice is Blast, with this blast the character gets to choose what it is made of, fire, ice, darkness, or whatever, this "Spell" would do 1d4 damage per 3 or 5 PPE put into it or something and have a base skill of like 70% +2% per level or something,

Then the second choice is a Shield and they choose to have it made of force and the size and shape and SDC of it would require different expenditures of PPE depending on what the character wants and the character would have have an 80% chance of activating it......

Not sure if i like the skill part but im still brainstorming here

Good ideas. One thing I hope they changed when (if) the magic sourcebook comes out for BTS2 is not allowing spells to duplicate psychic abilities too much. If you played an Arcanist from BTS1 you could pretty much a lot of the stuff psychics could do and just be one class. Healing, various fire spells, Telekinesis, sense spells all could belong to the Arcanist.
Psychis should have their schtick and Arcanists should do stuff different from them (not what psychics can do AND more...).
I am also hoping for various Arcanist classes each with their own angle.

[Lord Z]

All of those methods would work well in terms of game mechanics, but remember that BtS is a setting where skeptics have great power and control. If mages are throwing fireballs at gas stations, the entire setting suddenly makes less sense.

Here is another option I proposed a while back at NexusNine where it went over like a lead balloon. I suggested a system by which mages were reliant on supernatural creatures to cast their spells, like most of the mages in the Eregon novels and at least one old AD&D campaign. Magic simply doesn't work unless channeled through a SN critter. Thus, every mage has so do at least some summoning. The amount of magic which may be passed through a critter at one time is limited by the critter's stats -- maybe Hit Points or Horror Factor. For small spells, using a Scurry Talus or Poltergeist works well enough, and these critters are less dangerous. To cast more powerful spells, the summoner must summon increasingly powerful and dangerous monsters. If a mage gets overconfident, she may summon a monster which is too wild or powerful for her to handle. Alternative tactics include using an enemy monster as the funnel for spells cast against it.

[mrloucifer]

I suggested a system by which mages were reliant on supernatural creatures to cast their spells, like most of the mages in the Eregon novels and at least one old AD&D campaign. Magic simply doesn't work unless channeled through a SN critter. Thus, every mage has so do at least some summoning. The amount of magic which may be passed through a critter at one time is limited by the critter's stats -- maybe Hit Points or Horror Factor. For small spells, using a Scurry Talus or Poltergeist works well enough, and these critters are less dangerous. To cast more powerful spells, the summoner must summon increasingly powerful and dangerous monsters. If a mage gets overconfident, she may summon a monster which is too wild or powerful for her to handle. Alternative tactics include using an enemy monster as the funnel for spells cast against it.

I think I recalled reading a BTS2 playtester who said the mage character was doing something like this (I also think making pacts with supernatural beings was also involved, but I dont recall all the details and I'd have to dig to find this article in the bowles of the BTS forum).

[Jasper]

I suggested a system by which mages were reliant on supernatural creatures to cast their spells, like most of the mages in the Eregon novels and at least one old AD&D campaign. Magic simply doesn't work unless channeled through a SN critter. Thus, every mage has so do at least some summoning. The amount of magic which may be passed through a critter at one time is limited by the critter's stats -- maybe Hit Points or Horror Factor. For small spells, using a Scurry Talus or Poltergeist works well enough, and these critters are less dangerous. To cast more powerful spells, the summoner must summon increasingly powerful and dangerous monsters. If a mage gets overconfident, she may summon a monster which is too wild or powerful for her to handle. Alternative tactics include using an enemy monster as the funnel for spells cast against it.

I think I recalled reading a BTS2 playtester who said the mage character was doing something like this (I also think making pacts with supernatural beings was also involved, but I dont recall all the details and I'd have to dig to find this article in the bowles of the BTS forum).

I think it's a fantastic idea for a type of mage, though as I said before I would like to see a variety of mage types this time not just one class that can do ALL spells. BTS 2 did pretty well with introducing neat little features for some of the classes, like Bursters do psychic reads on ashes and stuff. I think each class should have it's own neat features, players like having that.

[Her0man0]

no offense but im just not a big fan of all mages being dependent on supernatural creatures for there magic, i like the wizards that have been studying magic and know a few spells, i know for BTS2 they cant be that powerful but there could be something like Ninjas and Superspies, like the the dedicated wizard and the worldly wizard, or the modern mage, where they know spells and maybe can astral travel but unless they are around the supernatural they have to do lengthly rituals to do any real magic, the dedicated wizard could be like the paranormal investigator with spells or something

[Lord Z]

I would feel comfortable playing in a campaign which used any of the methods in this thread.

[Her0man0]

I'd venture to throw in the following metrics and suggestions:

Magic is more effective on the supernatural than non-supernatural, so that is why supernatural beings are wary of magic users.

P.P.E. costs, spell strength and such don't really need to be fiddled with its only the spells themselves. Globe of Daylight, Befuddle and Agony are still solid spells that work on most opponents, more than physical combat spells. Saving throws for a lot of spells aren't there (such as Globe of Daylight, Carpet of Adhesion or Escape) so debilitating magic is a lot more useful. I'd venture that only Death Weavers and Sowki of the lesser races would be powerful enough to suffer minimal saving throw penalties, while Brain Burrowers, Togolosh and Garkain would be pretty easy pickings.

And to be honest, there is a reason why supernatural beings fear spellcasters. They can sense them, see them, attack and kill them. BTS2 could have three magic classes: Arcanist, who casts spells with a wide range of possible options; Mage, a studious caster of a smaller amount of spells with with more potency in them; and the Ritualist, who creates elaborate rituals of impressive power for control, enslavement and direction of his supernatural minions.

I actually really like this but we need to remember the setting, in this world there is a reason why science cant verify psychics and mages, its because they cant perform worth a damn unless its around the supernatural. and so the rules for mages need to reflect this somehow just like they do with psychics

[Sir Neil]

I actually really like this but we need to remember the setting, in this world there is a reason why science cant verify psychics and mages....

Only wanted to point out that science could verify some physical or healing psionics in BTS 2 (A first level psychic still has enough I.S.P. to perform an experiment every so many hours), it just doesn't because that would be out of genre.

[Jasper]

Wow, that's a fantastic copy of the cover from BTS1.

I like your comments regarding magic, especially what the bad guys could use.

If the BTS2 mage sourcebook carries foreward the analogy of psychics being the white blood cells of the earth maybe it can go this way: magic was used by various supernatural creatures that crossed over to earth. These creatures were battled long ago by heroes (psychics) of various kinds. Some (normal) humans learned the monsters magic to use against them. Almost if psychics are the white blood cells then arcanists are innoculations of a sort, ie fighting disease with itself. I know the analogy isn't that apt but whatever. Arcanists of various types would be using the supernatural powers of magic and monsters against them, frequently alongside psychic heroes. Of course, humans being what they are many arcanists used their powers for their own benefit, abandoning the heroic tradition that had been started. Still other human that failed in their attempts to master magic turned to making deals with the other side for the power they craved, leading to summoners and witches and various types of Faustians.
BTS2 being a low magic world I wouldn't see many long standing traditions. I think a lot of magic lines would die out until journals were picked up again generations later. Arcanists would be either self taught from old books having the spark within, be part of a mystical (but non magic) tradition but actually be able to do real magic (and threaten the power structure of their group), be master/apprentice taught by a real user...lots of possibilities but magic should be rare. The flip side of it of course are the mages who get their power from deals. They enact evil rituals, conducts sacrifices etc.
Just babbling right now but I like the ideas being thrown out there and figured I'd throw out a couple.

[Lord Z]

The white blood cells-innoculations analogy seems very much to me like something Kevin would write. I wouldn't be surprised to find that particular metaphor in the final book.

[Jasper]

The white blood cells-innoculations analogy seems very much to me like something Kevin would write. I wouldn't be surprised to find that particular metaphor in the final book.

And evil mages are viruses...and monsters are diseases..what does that make the green stuff between my toes ?

[Lord Z]

Maybe these mage methodologies should be placed in a new thread.

[mrloucifer]

The white blood cells-innoculations analogy seems very much to me like something Kevin would write. I wouldn't be surprised to find that particular metaphor in the final book.

And evil mages are viruses...and monsters are diseases..what does that make the green stuff between my toes ?

Im a fan of thinking of evil as more of the cancer cell variety.

[Jasper]

The white blood cells-innoculations analogy seems very much to me like something Kevin would write. I wouldn't be surprised to find that particular metaphor in the final book.

And evil mages are viruses...and monsters are diseases..what does that make the green stuff between my toes ?

Im a fan of thinking of evil as more of the cancer cell variety.

I forgot about cancer. Good call! Since cancer (I think, I don't have any medical knowledge) is often caused by one's own toxified body could we liken the cancer causing toxin to evil influence in Faustian mages and summoners. When the mages eventually fall to evil and/or control of their insidious overlord they would be likened to cancer as they spiral out of control. Viruses and bacteria could be more direct assaults from the other side.

Of course you can always just make the analogy whatever you feel like. Cancer, viruses, bacteria, poisons and toxins...I just hope Kev feels like using any analogy as long of the book gets written .

[mrloucifer]

Thats an very interesting train of thought Atomic Ray... one I should put some more thought into in the near future.

P.S... I suspect that by your using the term "major psi-type" as opposed to just "psychic" or even "sensitive psychic" (the types most likely to have these sort of dreams) that your more of a Rifts player than BTS. Not a bad thing by any means, just an observation.

[Jasper]

I could see a magic class, maybe a Blood Channeler or a Death Channeler, that would summon easy to control creatures, maybe place them in a mystic cage for instant kill and drink the P.P.E. of the sacrifice. Would be similar to the Summoner in PFRPG I suppose, but wouldn't be so dependent on circles, maybe pentacles or helixes or my favorite, the Sigil. Or if it's not enough for its own class, a collection of ritual helixes for a mystic cage collection is something any magic user could benefit in, but especially a Ritualist. For example, one that would be using the Helix "Helix of Shadow Wrath" to be used in conjunction with the Summon Shadow Beast spell to keep the Shadow Beast imprisoned, and the magic is so potent that with a thought the Helix can spiral to a single line, shredding anything imprisoned. Once the Mage has recovered P.P.E. from casting the two latent spells (another mechanism I believe in, especially for ritual and component mages, that can start spells and gradually add P.P.E. into them, or breaking up complex and costly spells into more manageable small ones that feed into each other) then the magic user could sacrifice the shadow beast to power the spell he had planned all long, something like Restoration, Summon Storm, Psychic Drain or Someone Makes Them. The character and player would have to be pretty creative in coming up with elaborate rituals, but I think it could be a worthwhile endeavor. In my vision, Helixes are purely magical, of a rainbow opaque translucent colors, that don't require any physical components (that's why they'd be more practical for powerful magic users, since the "floor space" requirements for circles and pentacles can be at times, problematic. And also needing a whole room of chalk, vials, beakers, etc makes inventory a nightmare.

What's a summoning helix?

[Lord Z]

I would respond to each strategy individually if they were moved to a more appropriate thread.

[TechnoGothic]

WHY Not use : NIGHTBANE : Through The Glass Darkly
it has:
SORCERER OCC
MYSTIC OCC
ACOLYTE OCC
CHANNELLER OCC
CYBER-MAGE OCC
FLESHSCULPTOR OCC
MIRRORMAGE OCC

I'm sure these SDC Men-of-Magic would fit in the worlf of BEYOND the SUPERNATURAL well enough.
The Sorcerer gets 10 to 60 PPE + PE attribute for PPE total for lvl One.

OMG ... I just looked over the ISP for BTS and boy are they LOW. I forgot about that to be honest.
How are they suppose to be able to use their blasted psi-powers at level one ? I mean alot of the powers cost more than their starting ISP for sure. This might be why my players refuse to play BtS2e.
Maybe we got spoiled by HU, NB, Rifts were characters can actually do something.

I think I'd rather use the Psychics from NB in a BtS styled game. They can be found in Between the Shadows btw... They at least start with enough ISP to use their powers once in awhile.

[Lord Z]

In 2nd edition, the ISP pools grow in resonance with supernatural threats. Not only will the psychics be unable to use many of their powers until a monster is nearby, many of those powers simply don't do anything until a monster is close. It's part of the tension inherent in the setting between people who believe in the supernatural and the skeptics who demand proof.

[mastermesh]

WHY Not use : NIGHTBANE : Through The Glass Darkly
it has:
SORCERER OCC
MYSTIC OCC
ACOLYTE OCC
CHANNELLER OCC
CYBER-MAGE OCC
FLESHSCULPTOR OCC
MIRRORMAGE OCC

I'm sure these SDC Men-of-Magic would fit in the worlf of BEYOND the SUPERNATURAL well enough.
The Sorcerer gets 10 to 60 PPE + PE attribute for PPE total for lvl One.

OMG ... I just looked over the ISP for BTS and boy are they LOW. I forgot about that to be honest.
How are they suppose to be able to use their blasted psi-powers at level one ? I mean alot of the powers cost more than their starting ISP for sure. This might be why my players refuse to play BtS2e.
Maybe we got spoiled by HU, NB, Rifts were characters can actually do something.

I think I'd rather use the Psychics from NB in a BtS styled game. They can be found in Between the Shadows btw... They at least start with enough ISP to use their powers once in awhile.

I always thought NIGHTBANE WAS the supplements for BTS, lol.

[TechnoGothic]

So then it is settled.

Want Mages, uses Through the Glass Darkly for the OCC magic-users.

btw, i really disliked how the psychics in BtS needs monsters, leylines, etc... to do anything worth a dang.

[TechnoGothic]

To answer the TOPIC...

When HADES freezes Over is the correct answer.

[Lord Z]

So then it is settled.
Want Mages, uses Through the Glass Darkly for the OCC magic-users.
btw, i really disliked how the psychics in BtS needs monsters, leylines, etc... to do anything worth a dang.

Admittedly, I got Through Glass in an X-Mas Surprise Package, and I have not gotten around to reading it properly.

As for the BtS Psychics & Proximity, that is a valid criticism and arguably even a design flaw. I admit that my Sensitive Psychic character, Professor Ali, would typically spend all of his ISP just finding the monster and have nothing left for the fight, at least until he reached fourth level. Around 4th or 5th level, the base ISP pool becomes large enough for it to not be such a limiting factor. On the other hand, Palladium characters have a lot of skills, and skills are excellent for compensating for that lack of power. If Professor Ali had ever encountered a big monster, like an Alien Intelligence, his ISP pool would have swelled x10 which would have given him ISP to use than a Nightbane Sensitive Psychic of equivalent experience level.

TG, you might want to take a closer look at the Psychic Classes from BtS2 which don't use much if any ISP to perform their class powers. I am thinking of the Diviner, Medium, Natural Athlete, and Natural Genius.

[TechnoGothic]

Yeah those Natural Athlete and Natural Genius are the best things in the book.

[Hendrik]

Bts is too good for Palladium books to just forget it.

YES, YES, YES!

To answer the TOPIC... When HADES freezes Over is the correct answer.

Yay! My favourite topic!

No. No news on when the supplements when come out, if ever. It makes me a sad panda.

*whiping tears away*

There MUST be sourcebooks!

THERE WILL BE SOURCEBOOKS!

*Hendrik starts to pray*

Cheers(?),
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

So then it is settled.

Want Mages, uses Through the Glass Darkly for the OCC magic-users.

btw, i really disliked how the psychics in BtS needs monsters, leylines, etc... to do anything worth a dang.

And/or use the BtS 1 (drivethru) Archanist with a DIYS update. I am just doing that ... hmmm, now come to think of it, will post if anybody else has already done that.

Kind regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

So then it is settled.

Want Mages, uses Through the Glass Darkly for the OCC magic-users.

btw, i really disliked how the psychics in BtS needs monsters, leylines, etc... to do anything worth a dang.

And/or use the BtS 1 (drivethru) Archanist with a DIYS update. I am just doing that ... hmmm, now come to think of it, will post if anybody else has already done that.

Kind regards
Hendrik

I'd like to see what you have, and start a new thread on our own version of an updated Arcanist.

Hi Mephisto,

I have already started another thread on the Arcanist (before you posted) which you may not have seen yet, but here is the link: http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=121672.

I have not finished my version of the 2nd ed Arcanist, but I will post a draft as soon as I will be through with that. 1st ed to 2nd ed conversion is anything but unlaboured but I will try to finish on the next weekend, maybe I have a very rough draft before that and I would gladly post that for discussion as well.

Kind regards
Hendrik