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I like to known how do you see the Apprenticeship to a mage wokr in Palladium fantasy?

Technically, when a character hits 1st level their apprenticeship is over. They've learned the basics of being a wizard and have set out on their own to gether more spells and learn on their own.

"The Dark Elf" character of mine started out as a summoner. His OCC and related skills (actually elective skills) were scholarly however his secondary skills were all domestic (cook, sew etc.)

I imagine an apprenticeship being butler/maid/cook/gardener duties in the day then student by night (or whenever).

Mysteries of Magic touches on the subject (page 42).

I always thought Magic occ can recognize the Magic potential of people and Offer a Apprenticeship.

gaby wrote:I always thought Magic occ can recognize the Magic potential of people and Offer a Apprenticeship.

That is one possibility. Others include the would be apprentice asking (some would say "begging") for the mage's instruction/tutelage, often only to be refused over and over again, until the mage feels the applicant is truly ready to learn. Other's stumble upon an apprenticeship quite by accident, like a mage happening across a youngster that shows some early latent talent. (think Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars Ep. 1) Still others are more of an apprenticeship of convenience with the apprentice having something the mage really needs, whether access to better study/lab/workshop facilities, exceptionally large amounts of funding, (yes, some wizard's can be bought) or even a favor to an old friend to teach a son, daughter, sibling, etc. And even these are just a tiny few of the myriad examples.

As to what an apprenticeship entails, it's something akin to a combination of a terribly harsh school with lessons that are barely comprehensible as well as few and relatively far between, and indentured servitude (see "slavery") involving roughly 70%-80% or more of the apprentice's time being taken up cooking, cleaning, sewing, running errands, and all other manner of menial tasks and manual labor. The rest of the apprentices time is spent studying whatever lesson the mage has put before him, as well as getting a little food or rest himself, if he can manage it. Clever apprentices try and find a way to incorporate the current lesson into the day's tasks, therefore getting a bit of extra "hands-on" practice at his soon-to-be-acquired talents. This can have some rather interesting, and often disastrous, results. (ever see Fantasia or the Sorceror's Apprentice?) But then, experience is still the best teacher and no experience teaches faster than a bad one.

What number of years do you think it will take,before the Apprentice become a level 1 wizard?

Lets say a 10 year was pic to become a apprentice ,what age will he be at level 1 wizard?

I've always treated it mostly as the domain of guilds. Sure, independent wizards here and there will have students (generally in areas where formal guilds are rare), and traveling Magi will pick up eager students looking for something more interesting then farm work, but generally you'll need to make yourself stand out in some way, insessent requests, some through aptitude testing on part of the mentor, or bribery. Either way, you're basically a live in servant at best during the training, trading work for mentor-ship and access to the teachers library and to an extend, labs (assuming they have one). I figure it takes most 5-15 years to go from student to Level 1 Wizard, depending on the skill of the Teacher and Student, and how quickly they take off, however I still view Level 1 and 2 as on the verge of real wizard and still student (most who go trough good training will be level 2-3 in my eyes, a poor student / teacher, or someone forced to cut their learning early would start at first).

As far as the training of it goes, memorization of therum and facts about arcane laws, the math and astrology that backs them, the incantations, and how to mentally (and physically) manipulate arcane energy, and expands ones tolerance and grip on energy to use for said spells (hence the bulked up P.P.E base), which takes up a bulk of their time. However since I throw it in with Necromancy, I cut out the Spirit Cauldron for wizards, does not seem like the thing they should teach their students (It is an open level 3 Spell though, so those with few qualms about it can still get and abuse it).

gaby wrote:What number of years do you think it will take,before the Apprentice become a level 1 wizard?

Lets say a 10 year was pic to become a apprentice ,what age will he be at level 1 wizard?

Generally speaking, an apprenticeship takes as long as it needs to for the person to learn what he needs to know to strike out on his own. In gaming terms, 1st level characters are in the neighborhood of 18-20 years old (adjusted for race, of course). And a magical apprenticeship could start rather early - around the age of 5 or so. Which means it could take approximately 15 years for the apprenticeship from start to finish, with the character finally striking out after learning everything he needs to know to be a fledgling mage.

Don't forget you know how much the student can pay the teacher. I mean your getting a indentured servant for one and a half decades, but if you can pick up a chuck of cold hard cash as well all the better. While its not directly correlated, since its from some of the dimension books and not palladium fantasy setting, in the Three Galaxies your paying upwards of a hundred thousand credits PER SEMESTER for one of the University's (though to be fair its the best of the best and a apprenticeship and University education in this instance are probably not the same thing. Still if your grabbing nobles kids I expect the mage to be grabbing quiet a bit of money etc, to cover room and board, on top of the menial work.) A farm kid as you mentioned would have to be quiet extraordinary to get an apprenticeship. The example of Anakin is probably relevant since his force power were amazing compared to even the normal 'force sensitive'.

I would like to put forward a few thoughts on this matter.
1) an apprenticeship would really only be an apt description for a few magic O.C.C.s. These being namely the Wizard, the Summoner and the Diabolist as these ones are really the only ones that require someone learning via books/pictures/instruction. The Warlock gets all his/her magic knowledge from the elementals of his choosing and the Mystic get theirs from innate ability.
Having said all that I would also say that a Diabolist apprenticeship would be fairly short as they have much less mystic study, BUT would also be one of the more elitist magic classes requiring a higher level of education. This education would be much like University, being around four to five years of 'advanced' education. A Summoners apprenticeship would probably last the longest due to the incredibly dangerous nature of the magic, plus the high amounts of book learning required. This would also be much like university, but would probably be the equivalent of a Masters/Ph.D. as opposed to a Bachelors. A Wizards apprenticeship would be less like schooling and more like what has been described by those posters above me.

2) It would depend on race. Not all races are as magically adept as others. Humans are definitely the 'middle of the pack' in terms of racial ability with magic, Wolfen would probably require more schooling as they are generally new to higher magics, I would probably suggest that they would take an additional 25% time increase. Creatures like elves, or Danzi are much more magically adept (Danzi are distant relations to fairy folk after all) and as such would probably take 25% less time. This would be to emulate the need for someone to learn about Potential Psychic Energy and the time learned in how to access it and shape it to ones will.

Just a few of my thoughts

A question accrued to me, before I answer the question...Why do wish to know and what aspect do you wish to know about?

gaby wrote:I like to known how do you see the Apprenticeship to a mage work in Palladium fantasy?

This is described in the Mysteries of Magic book.

The nature of the relationship will be highly dependent upon the wizard, and somewhat dependent upon the apprentice (with the apprentice becoming a larger part of the relationship as they get older). Some wizards may treat their apprentices as their own children... others may ruthlessly beat them for the slightest mistake.

Though it's aimed towards D&D, you might look at the book "Night of the Eye" by Mary Kirchoff. A good portion of the book is a description of a magical apprenticeship, and it heavily influences how I see such things... both Rand's respectful mentorship relationship with Justarius, and Lyim's more distant, and eventually abusive, relationship with Belisarius.

Basically a mage becomes a teacher to the apprentice, with as many different teaching styles as there are teachers. And given that PFRPG is basically medieval, any number of abuses would be overlooked.

gaby wrote:What number of years do you think it will take,before the Apprentice become a level 1 wizard?

Lets say a 10 year was pic to become a apprentice ,what age will he be at level 1 wizard?

Depends. The youngest you can start according to the age chart is 16 years old.

Also, as to the origional Topic, the odd thing about apprentiships is, the nature of the apprentiship depends enitrely on the personality and demenor of the wizard giving it.

Some may be firm and strict taskmasters, using the apprentise as slave labor as discribed eloquently by JuliusCreed, wherein the lessons are the reward for getting the days chores done. Others may be more kindly, and take a much more scholastic approach, with having the apprentice spend vast amounts of time in a library setting, pouring over tombs, and still others may be more akin to a father and son relationship, wherein the Wizard cares for his charge, molds him to greatness, and sometimes takes him out to go on relativly safe adventures for hands-on experiance.

Hiya,

well, I think it depends a lot on how instituionalized the apprenticeship has become in your world.

If there is a university or other school system, there will be no apprenticeship or only one that accompanies the school teaching - like working in a company, learning a craft and at the same time studying / going to school.

If you have apprenticeships in the sense of guild apprenticeships (not modern but medieval type) then what an apprenticeship constitutes, how it ends, term etc. might be regulated under guild rules, there might even be a guild charter to state all that.

Most often, however, wizards etc. are rare and have neither university, nor school, nor guilds but are all "loners". While the master-apprentice relationship will always be very individual (as has been stated by other posters) it will be the most individual in this latter situation. What an apprenticeship constitutes and entails will in such one-on-one situation depend very much on the master - he alone will call the shots - to some degree on the apprentice's father / a benefactor or patron, who may negotiate the details of the apprenticeship and for some minor part on what the apprentice himself can negotiate (but VERY little negotiation power there) or get out of and into the apprenticeship in the course of its term, i.e. he might earn respect and recognition of his master.

Coming back to how long an apprenticeship will be: IMO (and historical example would suggest) that depends entirely on the master. In the middle ages there were very old apprentices and most journeymen never became a master.

I do not think that by definition LEVEL 1 suggest the end of the apprenticeship. On the contrary, I would let the fledgling wizard EARN the rank of "journeyman".

Cheers
Hendrik