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I have been talking around with the local gaming community about Rifts. The top 2 things I keep hearing for those who don't play now but did or considered to was this.

The concept of MDC was alright, but was too powerful.

So I was thinking about when I run my game toning down MDC to a 1 MDC equals 10 or 20 SDC. This still makes it deadly to humans, but not atomizing with a simple 1 MDC sharp tooth pick.

Has anyone else found this?

Has anyone run a game like this?

What ratios of MDC:SDC would you suggest?

I've been wondering this too. Not that I wanted to convert Rifts to an SDC enviroment but that I wanted to convert Rifts monsters for use in SDC games. If anyone has any suggestions for this converstion, official or not, it would be appreciated.

I myself use a 10-1 ratio. It allows peopel even with sdc weapons to have a fighting chance to a degree.

The 1:10 ratio is a popular house rule.

Pffttt for too powerful MDC is SUPPOSSED to be extra powerful, after all, it represents things so huge, hard, etc, that you can't hurt it even with sustained assault rifle autofire (and MG fire under 0.50 cal).
If you use the 1:10 house rule, it essentially stops representing what it does, and loses any reason to exist in the first place.

I play in a game w/ 1:10 MDC:SDC ratio.

It works ok...you just have to watch and reduce certain RCCs and OCCs that a ton of SDC like Amaki or Titan Juicers.

bah.
I've switched over to just SDC system now.

HP/SDC
Artifical AR
Natural AR
Pentetration Value ( PV )

use these together, there is no need for mdc in the first place.

Svartalf wrote:Pffttt for too powerful MDC is SUPPOSSED to be extra powerful, after all, it represents things so huge, hard, etc, that you can't hurt it even with sustained assault rifle autofire (and MG fire under 0.50 cal).
If you use the 1:10 house rule, it essentially stops representing what it does, and loses any reason to exist in the first place.

So you have no problem with an Abrams 120mm smoothbore only being able to do a grand total of 3d4 md?

To me an Abrams is the modern day version of an MDC vehicle. It shoudl be and using a 100-1 ratio....it has 15md. Now is MDC material supposed ot be significantly better? at 10-1 they still are. That wimpy 2d4md C-18 laser pistol is more powerful than a .50cal rifle and with not recoil. Thats pretty damned powerful for a little handgun. Or how about the boomgun doing the equivalent of 3d6x100 sd, 50% more than the most powerful tank cannon of today and is only the size of a really large bazooka liek weapon. The Abrams 120 listed as tops at 3d4x100 sd.

10-1 is more than enough of a ratio for MD/MDC to be VERYpowerful in comparison to SD/SDC.

10-1 not only is a better game mechanic, it makes more sense to me in terms of technological progress, for explanation, look up at jaymz's post.

jaymz wrote:I myself use a 10-1 ratio. It allows peopel even with sdc weapons to have a fighting chance to a degree.

Yeah, so do I.

I've used a 1:50 ratio at one point and time.

jaymz wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Pffttt for too powerful MDC is SUPPOSSED to be extra powerful, after all, it represents things so huge, hard, etc, that you can't hurt it even with sustained assault rifle autofire (and MG fire under 0.50 cal).
If you use the 1:10 house rule, it essentially stops representing what it does, and loses any reason to exist in the first place.

So you have no problem with an Abrams 120mm smoothbore only being able to do a grand total of 3d4 md?

To me an Abrams is the modern day version of an MDC vehicle. It shoudl be and using a 100-1 ratio....it has 15md. Now is MDC material supposed ot be significantly better? at 10-1 they still are. That wimpy 2d4md C-18 laser pistol is more powerful than a .50cal rifle and with not recoil. Thats pretty damned powerful for a little handgun. Or how about the boomgun doing the equivalent of 3d6x100 sd, 50% more than the most powerful tank cannon of today and is only the size of a really large bazooka liek weapon. The Abrams 120 listed as tops at 3d4x100 sd.

10-1 is more than enough of a ratio for MD/MDC to be VERYpowerful in comparison to SD/SDC.

No I haven't.

Sure an Abrams is an MD vehicle, with an MD gun... both very low compared to what the tech achieved later can reach.
I'm more impressed with a gurgoyle that can stand dozens of Abrams shots and the fact that a measly laser pistol can do half as much damage per shot as said gun (more than it if it's a rifle or a high end pistol) than with what the reduced MD capacities and damages would represent under the proposed system.

People who bring an SDC weapon to fight an MD opponent are NOT supposed to have a fighting chance, and the system is made so an SDC being will get vaporized if it takes MD damage, which would no longer quite be the case under a 1:10 ratio. ergo, 1:10 is wrong.
.

Svartalf wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Pffttt for too powerful MDC is SUPPOSSED to be extra powerful, after all, it represents things so huge, hard, etc, that you can't hurt it even with sustained assault rifle autofire (and MG fire under 0.50 cal).
If you use the 1:10 house rule, it essentially stops representing what it does, and loses any reason to exist in the first place.

So you have no problem with an Abrams 120mm smoothbore only being able to do a grand total of 3d4 md?

To me an Abrams is the modern day version of an MDC vehicle. It shoudl be and using a 100-1 ratio....it has 15md. Now is MDC material supposed ot be significantly better? at 10-1 they still are. That wimpy 2d4md C-18 laser pistol is more powerful than a .50cal rifle and with not recoil. Thats pretty damned powerful for a little handgun. Or how about the boomgun doing the equivalent of 3d6x100 sd, 50% more than the most powerful tank cannon of today and is only the size of a really large bazooka liek weapon. The Abrams 120 listed as tops at 3d4x100 sd.

10-1 is more than enough of a ratio for MD/MDC to be VERYpowerful in comparison to SD/SDC.

No I haven't.

Sure an Abrams is an MD vehicle, with an MD gun... both very low compared to what the tech achieved later can reach.
I'm more impressed with a gurgoyle that can stand dozens of Abrams shots and the fact that a measly laser pistol can do half as much damage per shot as said gun (more than it if it's a rifle or a high end pistol) than with what the reduced MD capacities and damages would represent under the proposed system.

People who bring an SDC weapon to fight an MD opponent are NOT supposed to have a fighting chance, and the system is made so an SDC being will get vaporized if it takes MD damage, which would no longer quite be the case under a 1:10 ratio. ergo, 1:10 is wrong.
.

Then the entire setting is wrong. If that si teh case then the ONLY peopel who shoudl have sruvived the great cataclysm are those who were part of NEMA or the military or developed magic or psionics. ALL OTHER HUMANS should be dead. Why? Because NEMA and the military did not have the resources to defend them indefinitely. There is no way you could have the large nations that exist in North America if the people that only had access to SDC weapons (most of the non NEMA/Military population) never had a fighting chance.

So changing it to 10-1 being wrong is your opinion. There are very LARGE number of people who find it to be too over the top and unfeasible for the world to exist as it does the way the ratio is in the RAW.

if you don't like the setting and the system, you may enjoy playing something else or buggering rabbits more than modifying something that fulfills its designed goals quite well.

jaymz wrote:There are very LARGE number of people who find it to be too over the top and unfeasible for the world to exist as it does the way the ratio is in the RAW.

These people are wrong.
They're probably the people who roll for random MDC encounters every hour, and picture demons under every bush that want nothing more than to slaughter every single living thing they find.

But that's not the setting that's described in the main book.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:There are very LARGE number of people who find it to be too over the top and unfeasible for the world to exist as it does the way the ratio is in the RAW.

These people are wrong.
They're probably the people who roll for random MDC encounters every hour, and picture demons under every bush that want nothing more than to slaughter every single living thing they find.

But that's not the setting that's described in the main book.

It isn't what I do. In fact I argue repeatedly with people that there isn't an MDC monster behind vey tree nor do the books indicate there is (event hough they apparently don;t like to be wrong) yet I still believe 10-1 makes more sense than 100-1.

Svartalf wrote:if you don't like the setting and the system, you may enjoy playing something else or buggering rabbits more than modifying something that fulfills its designed goals quite well.

I never said I didn't like the setting. Please tell me where I said that. It is still your opnion that 10-1 ratio is wrong if that is how people think it should be. The game is designed to allow people to modify it as they see fit.

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:There are very LARGE number of people who find it to be too over the top and unfeasible for the world to exist as it does the way the ratio is in the RAW.

These people are wrong.
They're probably the people who roll for random MDC encounters every hour, and picture demons under every bush that want nothing more than to slaughter every single living thing they find.

But that's not the setting that's described in the main book.

It isn't what I do. In fact I argue repeatedly with people that there isn't an MDC monster behind vey tree nor do the books indicate there is (event hough they apparently don;t like to be wrong) yet I still believe 10-1 makes more sense than 100-1.

So why would it be unfeasible for the world to exist as it does?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:There are very LARGE number of people who find it to be too over the top and unfeasible for the world to exist as it does the way the ratio is in the RAW.

These people are wrong.
They're probably the people who roll for random MDC encounters every hour, and picture demons under every bush that want nothing more than to slaughter every single living thing they find.

But that's not the setting that's described in the main book.

It isn't what I do. In fact I argue repeatedly with people that there isn't an MDC monster behind vey tree nor do the books indicate there is (event hough they apparently don;t like to be wrong) yet I still believe 10-1 makes more sense than 100-1.

So why would it be unfeasible for the world to exist as it does?

Well for the fact that anyone without MD/MDC equipment, even without a monster behind every tree, over 200 years are likely to have been eliminated/killed/eaten, while the military/NEMA wouldn't have unlimited resources to maintain the defenses that would have been neccessary for a nation like the Coalition to actually grow and over time flourish (well flourish for Rifts earth anyway). A 10-1 ration, to me, would give them something to at least stem the tide a bit more realistically. That is my opnion. Ifit si the opnion of others that no 100-1 is perfect, that is fine, but it does not make MY opnion any less valid sicne the game was writtena nd we are told repeatedly by Kevin himself that if we don;t like something then change/modify it.

I myself like so reasonable explaination as t how thigns get to wher they are. Tp me that was never really thought out for Rifts. we just suddenly went from tanks with 1500sdc to tanks having 100x that (thus being mdc) and I am sorry that doesn't cut it for me. we have about 80 years of tech devlopment that culminates with Chaos Earth tech. how did we get there? One day POOF mdc materials exist? Again that doesn;t cut it for me, but that is for ME. I don't expect anyone esle to agree with me. Most of the time they dont

jaymz wrote:Well for the fact that anyone without MD/MDC equipment, even without a monster behind every tree, over 200 years are likely to have been eliminated/killed/eaten, while the military/NEMA wouldn't have unlimited resources to maintain the defenses that would have been neccessary for a nation like the Coalition to actually grow and over time flourish (well flourish for Rifts earth anyway).

How do you figure?

I myself like so reasonable explaination as t how thigns get to wher they are. Tp me that was never really thought out for Rifts. we just suddenly went from tanks with 1500sdc to tanks having 100x that (thus being mdc) and I am sorry that doesn't cut it for me. we have about 80 years of tech devlopment that culminates with Chaos Earth tech. how did we get there? One day POOF mdc materials exist? Again that doesn;t cut it for me, but that is for ME. I don't expect anyone esle to agree with me. Most of the time they dont

Actually, I also think that the jump is kind of odd and, while possible, kind of unrealistic.
My response is to simply want to see more of the middle-ground stuff, though, not to reduce the power of mega-damage.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:Well for the fact that anyone without MD/MDC equipment, even without a monster behind every tree, over 200 years are likely to have been eliminated/killed/eaten, while the military/NEMA wouldn't have unlimited resources to maintain the defenses that would have been neccessary for a nation like the Coalition to actually grow and over time flourish (well flourish for Rifts earth anyway).

How do you figure?

Mainly because if no one outside of hte NEMA protected zones shouldnt be able to survive any monster encounter let alone multiple over a period of time considering the great cataclysm event of Chaos Earth would be closer to the monster around every tree environment thna Rifts is (since Ley Lines as 3 miles high as opposed to 300ft high and random Rifts occur constantly). Not to mention even NEMA cannot seemto really stem the the tide of monsters during the inital time of Chaos Earth and they HAVE MD/MDC equipment

Killer Cyborg wrote:

I myself like so reasonable explaination as t how thigns get to wher they are. Tp me that was never really thought out for Rifts. we just suddenly went from tanks with 1500sdc to tanks having 100x that (thus being mdc) and I am sorry that doesn't cut it for me. we have about 80 years of tech devlopment that culminates with Chaos Earth tech. how did we get there? One day POOF mdc materials exist? Again that doesn;t cut it for me, but that is for ME. I don't expect anyone esle to agree with me. Most of the time they dont

Actually, I also think that the jump is kind of odd and, while possible, kind of unrealistic.
My response is to simply want to see more of the middle-ground stuff, though, not to reduce the power of mega-damage.

[/quote]

Depends on what you see as middle ground. I am making thigns that are "middle ground" but still using a 10-1 ratio and, at least to me (and most other people who have seen it), it works. Again I don;t expect peopel to agree with me and many times they don't but at least in my interpretation I think 100-1 is TOO much and I kwo I am not alone in that.

However let me state this. I believe this to be the case in Rifts NOT Robotech. Why? Robotech has a built in reason as to WHY there was such a DRASTIC increase in firepower and armour protection. At least in the original edition. Not so much in the New edition.

jaymz wrote:I never said I didn't like the setting. Please tell me where I said that. It is still your opnion that 10-1 ratio is wrong if that is how people think it should be. The game is designed to allow people to modify it as they see fit.

You said as much when you said "this is not good, it must be changed", when in fact the Rifts setting loses a lot of its flavor if a bunch of militiamen with assault rifles can actually do things against the MDC demons and monsters.

Ever thought of playing System Failure? might be more your cuppa.

Svartalf wrote:

jaymz wrote:I never said I didn't like the setting. Please tell me where I said that. It is still your opnion that 10-1 ratio is wrong if that is how people think it should be. The game is designed to allow people to modify it as they see fit.

You said as much when you said "this is not good, it must be changed", when in fact the Rifts setting loses a lot of its flavor if a bunch of militiamen with assault rifles can actually do things against the MDC demons and monsters.

Ever thought of playing System Failure? might be more your cuppa.

That has zero to do with setting but everythign to do with gameplay. AND it is still your opinion versus mine. You are no more right or wrong than I am in this.

How does it lose its flavour? In fact it SUPPOSRT the fact that pockets of those militia men had have survived for so many villages and communities exisy all over North america since many of said communities don't always use magic or hi tech weapons. It is no more unlikely than a small group with laser rifles being able to survive what Chaos Earth describes the way things were.

Just because you don;t agree with me doesn't make you right or me wrong. It puts at odds on our opinions in this matter.

Svartalf wrote:

jaymz wrote:I never said I didn't like the setting. Please tell me where I said that. It is still your opnion that 10-1 ratio is wrong if that is how people think it should be. The game is designed to allow people to modify it as they see fit.

You said as much when you said "this is not good, it must be changed", when in fact the Rifts setting loses a lot of its flavor if a bunch of militiamen with assault rifles can actually do things against the MDC demons and monsters.

Ever thought of playing System Failure? might be more your cuppa.

How is a bunch of dirt in nails, hardened wilderness trapper townsfolk armed with rigged together assault rifles fending off a giant tentacle unicorn demon not rifts? That's like it's definition as a game as far as I can tell. If nothing else, it's a strongly tied element of the entire theme of the game (human spirit / unconquerable resolve). Was it because it wasn't super crazy unstoppable tech vs super crazy unstoppable X (Where X is Magic, Psi or Tech as needed) so you assumed it wasn't rifts because gritty realism has no place in your games?

As to Cyborgs comment of not being MD monsters behind every tree. One monster per -state- in the USA will have wiped out every town within 200 Years time frame who can't defend themselves with an MD weapon. And there are at least enough monsters out there to make the CS need to worry about supply lines and limit their expansion past Iowa, they patrol their routes to deal with it, it might not be behind every bush, but it's suggestive enough to be a weekly occurrence in wide areas. Once per month is waaay more then enough to ensure every town, man, woman and child needs MDC protection and armored to survive.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:o & i just relised a 10:1 scale means we srsly need to change rail guns & rockets otherwise u get railguns doin 1D4x10SDC per shot & 1D4x100SDC per burst so their just heavy machineguns that cost as much as sports cars

Actually since that is whatthey were considered that is what the essentially are. They also have superior range, weigh about the same and can fir at a much higher rate than the typical mg can along with carrying more ammo. They may do teh same damage per round bt railguns will end p still doing upwards of double the damage of a Hvy MG with bursts. Besides how many people actually use a the single fire option on a railgun anyway? A 10-1 ration may in fact allow people to think and use it against unarmoured oppoents now since it will put down a typical human with nor armour instead of blowing them completely apart.

Mind you the SDC-MDC ratio isn;t the only thing I change so......and so far anyone that has played with my rules changes likes them and say they enjoy playing rifts more now than with the RAW

Take a world War Two tank like the Tiger, how many Tigers would it take to take out a M-1? two? Three? Five? and that what 50 60 years well try looking at the span of two hundred years here for the tech to advance there nothing wrong with by the book MDC within the allowed time frame.

Saitou Hajime wrote:Take a world War Two tank like the Tiger, how many Tigers would it take to take out a M-1? two? Three? Five? and that what 50 60 years well try looking at the span of two hundred years here for the tech to advance there nothing wrong with by the book MDC within the allowed time frame.

One problem. Tech did NOT advance for 200 years. In fact tech on Earth is now only on par or just slightly ahead of the tech of Chaos Earth. That is 300 years (188 year dark age and it is now about 110 PA so 298 years) to finally surpass what the tech in Chaos Earth is capable of and some Chaos Earth stuff is STILL more capable than stuff out there now.

Saitou Hajime wrote:Take a world War Two tank like the Tiger, how many Tigers would it take to take out a M-1? two? Three? Five? and that what 50 60 years well try looking at the span of two hundred years here for the tech to advance there nothing wrong with by the book MDC within the allowed time frame.

most of the difficulty would be in the fact that the modern tank likely has longer range, more accurate weapons, better sensors, etc.

if you just sat them facing each other in an field and let the tiger shoot the M-1 a few times, i doubt the M-1 would be all that impervious to the damage.

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:Well for the fact that anyone without MD/MDC equipment, even without a monster behind every tree, over 200 years are likely to have been eliminated/killed/eaten, while the military/NEMA wouldn't have unlimited resources to maintain the defenses that would have been neccessary for a nation like the Coalition to actually grow and over time flourish (well flourish for Rifts earth anyway).

How do you figure?

Mainly because if no one outside of hte NEMA protected zones shouldnt be able to survive any monster encounter let alone multiple over a period of time considering the great cataclysm event of Chaos Earth would be closer to the monster around every tree environment thna Rifts is (since Ley Lines as 3 miles high as opposed to 300ft high and random Rifts occur constantly).

Let's look at that for a bit.
No one outside of the NEMA protected zones [should] be able to survive any monster encounter(s).
I disagree.
1. One thing that many people seem to overlook is the fact that many (most) demons in Chaos Earth and Rifts (original book) are vulnerable to SDC attacks of one kind or another. Sometimes it's silver, sometimes it's wood, sometimes its fire or cold. Sometimes it's other stuff.
In Chaos Earth, ALL supernatural beings take Mega-Damage from dog bites.
There's plenty that humans could do to kill supernatural creature.
Even without killing the creatures, there's still plenty of chance for survival. Most supernatural predators and many demons have only animal intelligence. This means that they're going to be operating on instincts rather than intellect.
Many creatures that end up on Rifts/Chaos Earth aren't Mega-Damage creatures in their native world, and that's going to affect their behavior.
Animals have an instinctual fear of fire and smoke. Often they're not even going to stick around to see if it hurts them.
Animals have an instinctual fear of loud noises, such as gunfire. They will often flee rather than fight if startled.
Animals often don't attack enemies that appear large and/or aggressive, and can be bluffed into leaving if the circumstances are right and/or some thought and prep is put into it.
Predators with only animal intelligence who used to be SDC won't necessarily understand their new position. They might be able to claw/bite/ram their way through a brick wall or wooden palisade rather easily, but they won't necessarily know that. All they'll see is a sturdy appearing obstacle, and most of the time they won't even try to bust through it.
Creatures with animal intelligence, MDC or not, could even be domesticated.
Read this thread about SDC communities and ways that they might defend against mega-damage threats, if you need more info to get the full picture.
2. Not all demons/critters want to kill everybody all the time.
A lot of supernatural predators feed not on flesh, but on fear. Which means that it's in their benefit to keep a community terrorized, but alive. Others feed on PPE, sometimes by killing but other times simply by wounding or other means.
Demons/critters that DO feed on flesh aren't always hungry. Few animals and fewer intelligent beings would slaughter their entire food supply if they didn't have to.
For that matter, they might even end up in a situation where they don't have to hunt any more, they get feed for free. This would be the old "let's tie somebody to a stake outside of town every day/week/month/whatever as a sacrifice to keep the dragon/demon/monster from entering our town and killing us all" scenario.
Or not even human sacrifice, but animals; tie a few sheep up outside of town, and the critter doesn't have to go through all the work of chasing people down in order to feed. Predators generally prefer an easy meal whenever possible.
Intelligent demons/monsters might not even want to feed on people at all; they might want servants and worshipers. Why kill all the humans in a community when you could have them serve at your pleasure for generations to come?
3. Not all demons/monsters get along.
Just like predators in the real world, they'd most likely stake out some territory that they considered to be their own and they'd attack or chase out other predators that tried to poach in their feeding grounds.
By appeasing that creature by feeding it regularly, you might be ensuring that other monsters are kept out of the area, at least as long as your monster can hold his/her/its territory.
Others might actively hate other types of demon/monster/critter and prefer to kill them instead of killing humans.
Like splugorth minions and vampires, for example.
4. Not everything that comes through a Rift IS a monster.
Take dragons, for example. They're intelligent, powerful, and not necessarily evil. They might well decide to protect a territory simply out of decency.
Or take a race of D-bees that actually IS mega-damage, or that has mega-damage tech, or that has magic of psychic powers. Unless they're actively evil, they might well form an alliance with humans in order for mutual survival. Even if they ARE evil, they might want us as slaves, and keep us alive for that purpose.
5. Natives of Earth developed powers after the Rifts came.
Even without fancy NEMA gear, there's still psychics and mages out there with the power to help protect a community.
6. Taking Enemy Gear.
Xiticix Rifles are nifty weapons, and they can be used by any psychic or mage. Tech weapons from other races might be able to be used by anybody at all. MDC monsters can, if killed, possibly be skinned and made into armor (this is easier if you happen to have a vibro-blade or other MD weapon, but might be feasible even without them).
7. Prey animals generally survive as a species.
Humans aren't much of a match physically for many Earth predators. Lions, tigers, bears, etc. can kill us easily if we don't have armor or weapons at our disposal.
Yet our species survived a long, long time without any such advantages.
This is because, like everything else, we can run and hide if we need to. Mice can't fight wolves, but they sure as heck can hide from them and breed. Sure, some get found, but not all of them. Not even enough to endanger the species.
It wouldn't be fun living like a mouse, but it would be living.
And like the proverbial hiker trying to run from the bear, he doesn't have to outrun the bear, just the hiker next to him.
There's a LOT of animals on Rifts Earth that would make easier prey than humans, and a lot of the predators/monsters would turn to that whenever they could.

Eh. There's more, but I don't feel like typing it all out.
Read that thread.

Cinos wrote:As to Cyborgs comment of not being MD monsters behind every tree. One monster per -state- in the USA will have wiped out every town within 200 Years time frame who can't defend themselves with an MD weapon.

See my response to jaymz.

And there are at least enough monsters out there to make the CS need to worry about supply lines and limit their expansion past Iowa, they patrol their routes to deal with it, it might not be behind every bush, but it's suggestive enough to be a weekly occurrence in wide areas.

In wide areas, like the several states worth of CS territory.
But a small village in an isolated valley might not see any significant threat for a stretch months or years.
And when they do, there are ways of dealing with them.

Also, the CS guards people against demons and monsters, but that's not all their patrols are for. One of the biggest reasons for their security and military might is to protect them from other humans and similar d-bees.

KC - I think You and I will just have agree to disagree because as nice as all that is typed out, we really do NOT have enough info on what was around during Chaos Earth in teh way of Monsters and Demons to make what you typed out as 100% valid. Also teh link you provided is things that woudl have been learned and figured out over time not known already.

What if several groups of Brodkill or Thornheads arrived on Chaos Earth? They are only vulnerable to MD Weapons. Many other Demon and such that woudl appear (yes the ones actual in the CE books may have the various weaknesses you describe but they are far from the countless numbers of other types that woudl likely appear all over the world to varying degrees) do not have said vulnerabilites to silver or wood (not to mention most peopel would not even think to try those things since they have no idea what in gods name they are facing, they just know the .357 they just emptied did nothing). Fact is a huge amount of the population, if not nearly all, would fall prey over the first years to the various monsters and demon etc as they became more agressive as monsters and demon are wont to do as they test their bondaries and the capabilities of those they are after. As such if you are not in a NEMA/Military protected area, you are essentially screwed. On top of that NEMA.Military resources are not unlimited in teh way of MD/MDC qeapons and equipment and they do not have th resources to build new ones from has been printed and repairs will only go so far over time.

As I see it switching to a 10-1 ratio makes the resources last longer, even if SD weapon are less effective (as opposed to useless) they are now useful. Especially to those NOT in the NEMA/military protected zones.

Killer Cyborg wrote:In wide areas, like the several states worth of CS territory.
But a small village in an isolated valley might not see any significant threat for a stretch months or years.
And when they do, there are ways of dealing with them.

Also, the CS guards people against demons and monsters, but that's not all their patrols are for. One of the biggest reasons for their security and military might is to protect them from other humans and similar d-bees.

The only problem is we have no way of knwoing just how the CS came to be and how they managed to actually build a society with manufacturing capabilities. With CE now the official version of what happenned to eventuall lead us to Rifst Earth....I am sorry the way CE is written it makes it VERY difficult to see how the CS may have arisen from that in any way.

jaymz wrote:KC - I think You and I will just have agree to disagree because as nice as all that is typed out, we really do NOT have enough info on what was around during Chaos Earth in teh way of Monsters and Demons to make what you typed out as 100% valid.

What part are you in doubts about?

Also teh link you provided is things that woudl have been learned and figured out over time not known already.

Depends on the things. Some could be found out in the span of hours or days, some could take longer.
A lot of it is already stuff we know how to do, though. Shoot stuff. Dig pits. Scare stuff away with fire. Run and hide.
Read the whole thread.

What if several groups of Brodkill or Thornheads arrived on Chaos Earth? They are only vulnerable to MD Weapons.

I assume that several DID arrive on Chaos Earth.
I also assume that these several groups did not wipe out the entire population of 300+ million Americans
I'd be really impressed if they could even wipe out 1 million.
Heck, I'd be impressed if they could wipe out 100k.

Many other Demon and such that woudl appear (yes the ones actual in the CE books may have the various weaknesses you describe but they are far from the countless numbers of other types that woudl likely appear all over the world to varying degrees) do not have said vulnerabilites to silver or wood

And where are these other types mentioned in the descriptions of Chaos Earth?

(not to mention most peopel would not even think to try those things since they have no idea what in gods name they are facing, they just know the .357 they just emptied did nothing).

Most of the population knows that crosses and silver are tools against evil, if only from vampire/werewolf legends.
Other stuff could be discovered through accident or experiment over time.
You never seen any horror movies with monsters that have only one weakness that happens to be discovered and used against it?

KC - I did read the whole thread and I don;t have any particular doubts about any ofit. I just don;t agree with it and take it the way you do. Thus why I said I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. We aren't going to see eye-to-eye on it so no point in arguing about it is all.

And yes I have seen many a horror movie. Most actually do not have a secret weakness, unless you are only talking baout older b movie monsters from the 50's. Modern horror movies (ok not so modern but Freddy Krueger, Jason, Michael Myers etc) don;t erally have any traditional weaknesses to speak of nor are they afraid of crosses or any particular holy symbols.

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:In wide areas, like the several states worth of CS territory.
But a small village in an isolated valley might not see any significant threat for a stretch months or years.
And when they do, there are ways of dealing with them.

Also, the CS guards people against demons and monsters, but that's not all their patrols are for. One of the biggest reasons for their security and military might is to protect them from other humans and similar d-bees.

The only problem is we have no way of knwoing just how the CS came to be and how they managed to actually build a society with manufacturing capabilities. With CE now the official version of what happenned to eventuall lead us to Rifst Earth....I am sorry the way CE is written it makes it VERY difficult to see how the CS may have arisen from that in any way.

We know that it was based on rediscovered ancient technology, including leftover NEMA caches.
What's the problem?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:In wide areas, like the several states worth of CS territory.
But a small village in an isolated valley might not see any significant threat for a stretch months or years.
And when they do, there are ways of dealing with them.

Also, the CS guards people against demons and monsters, but that's not all their patrols are for. One of the biggest reasons for their security and military might is to protect them from other humans and similar d-bees.

The only problem is we have no way of knwoing just how the CS came to be and how they managed to actually build a society with manufacturing capabilities. With CE now the official version of what happenned to eventuall lead us to Rifst Earth....I am sorry the way CE is written it makes it VERY difficult to see how the CS may have arisen from that in any way.

We know that it was based on rediscovered ancient technology, including leftover NEMA caches.
What's the problem?

Caches dont build new Mecha or weapons. Without said caches or a way to replace said mecha and weapons ....which no one actually had in CE (they do discuss that resources are tight in so far that they do not have replacement parts per se etc). Not to mention that the Nema forces in CE woudl have attempted to plunder those Caches as a way to replenish thier own resources. Also in SB1 Revised it is said the Republicans are the ones that gave the CS thier ancient tech secrets (ie Samas etc) which woudl inducate they made due with whatever they had and goes back to my original argument of there isn;t eenough MD/MDC weapons and equipment for such a large nation to come into being.

Again dont see us coming eye-to-eye KC so it is another matterof agreeing to disagree I think.

jaymz wrote:KC - I did read the whole thread and I don;t have any particular doubts about any ofit. I just don;t agree with it and take it the way you do. Thus why I said I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. We aren't going to see eye-to-eye on it so no point in arguing about it is all.

If you don't have any doubts, but you disagree anyway, I agree that further discussion on the topic seems rather pointless.

And yes I have seen many a horror movie. Most actually do not have a secret weakness, unless you are only talking baout older b movie monsters from the 50's. Modern horror movies (ok not so modern but Freddy Krueger, Jason, Michael Myers etc) don;t erally have any traditional weaknesses to speak of nor are they afraid of crosses or any particular holy symbols.

Freddy has a number of weaknesses, depending on the movie. He was Disbelieved, fought in a spiritual battle, had his remains buried in hallowed grounds, had all the souls trapped within him released, and was pulled in to the real world and killed there.
He always has some kind of weakness that must be found and exploited.
In the earlier movies, Jason's weakness was simply that he was a guy in a mask. After Part IV, his "weakness" was trapping him in the lake. In the 8th movie, his weakness was toxic waste. In Jason Goes To Hell, he had to be killed by another Voorhees using a mystical dagger. In Freddy vs. Jason, his weakness was water.

Michael Myers didn't really have a weakness, but that was specifically his gimmick; he was pretty unstoppable. But then, Myers was more of a psychopath than a monster, and psychopaths generally don't have special vulnerabilities.
And you don't need Mega-Damage gear to kill them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:KC - I did read the whole thread and I don;t have any particular doubts about any ofit. I just don;t agree with it and take it the way you do. Thus why I said I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. We aren't going to see eye-to-eye on it so no point in arguing about it is all.

If you don't have any doubts, but you disagree anyway, I agree that further discussion on the topic seems rather pointless.

And yes I have seen many a horror movie. Most actually do not have a secret weakness, unless you are only talking baout older b movie monsters from the 50's. Modern horror movies (ok not so modern but Freddy Krueger, Jason, Michael Myers etc) don;t erally have any traditional weaknesses to speak of nor are they afraid of crosses or any particular holy symbols.

Freddy has a number of weaknesses, depending on the movie. He was Disbelieved, fought in a spiritual battle, had his remains buried in hallowed grounds, had all the souls trapped within him released, and was pulled in to the real world and killed there.
He always has some kind of weakness that must be found and exploited.
In the earlier movies, Jason's weakness was simply that he was a guy in a mask. After Part IV, his "weakness" was trapping him in the lake. In the 8th movie, his weakness was toxic waste. In Jason Goes To Hell, he had to be killed by another Voorhees using a mystical dagger. In Freddy vs. Jason, his weakness was water.

Michael Myers didn't really have a weakness, but that was specifically his gimmick; he was pretty unstoppable. But then, Myers was more of a psychopath than a monster, and psychopaths generally don't have special vulnerabilities.
And you don't need Mega-Damage gear to kill them.

Yet for all these "weaknesses" they always came back even more powerful and unstoppable. Actually in Freddy Versus jason I think they stopped him by getting him with his own machete but I digress.....we're still at a stalemate as to our opnions so further discussion is pointless here as well

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:We know that it was based on rediscovered ancient technology, including leftover NEMA caches.
What's the problem?

Caches dont build new Mecha or weapons.

Sure, but rediscovered factories do.

Also in SB1 Revised it is said the Republicans are the ones that gave the CS thier ancient tech secrets (ie Samas etc) which woudl inducate they made due with whatever they had and goes back to my original argument of there isn;t eenough MD/MDC weapons and equipment for such a large nation to come into being.

Well, the Republicans claim that they gave the tech for SAMAS and other stuff.
But that doesn't mean that they gave the CS all their MD tech (assuming that the claims are true).

RUE 356 describes it pretty well in any case: Select groups found "not just the technology, but a military or industrial factory with pre-Rifts machines (some MDC themselves) that could be cleaned, restarted and operated to create mega-damage items. after that, studying the manuals and computer files of the past and relearning what had been forgotten..."
"Reverse engineering of other pre-Rifts, vehicles and devices excavated from ancient ruins enabled these same people to expand on that knowledge and create their own designs."

Also, you keep focusing on Mega-Damage gear, but we both know that it wasn't necessary. There are other ways to kill MDC monsters, or at least to survive them, other than using Mega-Damage attacks, as I've described.
But more than that, there's magic and psionics, which were used a lot during the Dark Age (along with remaining leftover Mega-Damage gear).

Again dont see us coming eye-to-eye KC so it is another matter of agreeing to disagree I think.

I agree that we disagree.

KC - at least it is good discussion I hope

jaymz wrote:Yet for all these "weaknesses" they always came back even more powerful and unstoppable.

Sure, and if you find any single monster in Rifts or Chaos Earth that has a powerful money-making franchise, the same would happen for that creature.
But barring that, there's no reason why the people of Rifts/Chaos Earth couldn't kill stuff and have it stay dead.

jaymz wrote:KC - at least it is good discussion I hope

Certainly not a bad one. I've had to recheck the books on a few points and look some stuff up, and that's always kind of fun to do, as well as good practice keeping up with the rules and setting.
So whether we agree or not, there's certainly no hard feelings on my end of things. I kind of like such discussions.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:KC - at least it is good discussion I hope

Certainly not a bad one. I've had to recheck the books on a few points and look some stuff up, and that's always kind of fun to do, as well as good practice keeping up with the rules and setting.
So whether we agree or not, there's certainly no hard feelings on my end of things. I kind of like such discussions.

They are the best kinds.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:Yet for all these "weaknesses" they always came back even more powerful and unstoppable.

Sure, and if you find any single monster in Rifts or Chaos Earth that has a powerful money-making franchise, the same would happen for that creature.
But barring that, there's no reason why the people of Rifts/Chaos Earth couldn't kill stuff and have it stay dead.

Demosn don't "die" per se though iirc. I just don't recall how long they have to wait before they can return.

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:Yet for all these "weaknesses" they always came back even more powerful and unstoppable.

Sure, and if you find any single monster in Rifts or Chaos Earth that has a powerful money-making franchise, the same would happen for that creature.
But barring that, there's no reason why the people of Rifts/Chaos Earth couldn't kill stuff and have it stay dead.

Demosn don't "die" per se though iirc. I just don't recall how long they have to wait before they can return.

Yeah, I was remembering that as I wrote that last one. Really, I think it's all supernatural creatures, which would include a heck of a lot of stuff.
But killing something and having it stay away for at least a decade is pretty good. Gives time for a bunch of new kids to be born. And I don't know that they necessarily return to the same spot either, so for the community in question it might be a permanent victory (against that creature, anyway).

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

jaymz wrote:Yet for all these "weaknesses" they always came back even more powerful and unstoppable.

Sure, and if you find any single monster in Rifts or Chaos Earth that has a powerful money-making franchise, the same would happen for that creature.
But barring that, there's no reason why the people of Rifts/Chaos Earth couldn't kill stuff and have it stay dead.

Demosn don't "die" per se though iirc. I just don't recall how long they have to wait before they can return.

Yeah, I was remembering that as I wrote that last one. Really, I think it's all supernatural creatures, which would include a heck of a lot of stuff.
But killing something and having it stay away for at least a decade is pretty good. Gives time for a bunch of new kids to be born. And I don't know that they necessarily return to the same spot either, so for the community in question it might be a permanent victory (against that creature, anyway).

True enough but if it has some buddies in hell that are about to return.......that could be bad for the village that beat the demon only to have 4 show up a year later is all.

[quote=Killer Cyborg]In Chaos Earth, ALL supernatural beings take Mega-Damage from dog bites.
[/quote]

In -Chaos Earth- Sure, I happen to see this thread in the Rifts forum, so get Kevin to agree it applies across That is an inherent problem about making a game based on a game then using different rules for whatever reason that where never there before.

Yes many things have weakness, guess how hard it is for a squad of 6 humans armed with Silver Longswords to take down a Jinn? Where are they getting all this silver from? Where are they making these weapons exactly? Silver isn't a great weapons metal either, they're gonna wear out.

So list of things that are MDC without a directly exploitable mechanic, Tautons, Crocodillians, Buti-fas, Demonic Cannibals, Gargoylite, Gurgoyle, Gargoyle, Gargoyle Mage, Gargoyle Lord (I will exempt Europe from this to an extent, as NGR some how made it through fairly well with tech intact for some unexplained reason, and yet have not taken over the entire land mass through the dark ages), Blood Hawks, Dark Behemoth, Darkhound, Dragon-Ape, Land Ray (Body Field, it is at least defeatable), Necrophim / Soul Snakes, Shadeling, Sun Demon, Vyarnect, Demon-Dragonmage, Lanotaur Psi-Hunter, Power Leech (for some reason, aside from being a MASSIVE threat to towns WITH MD Weaponry), Psi-Goblin, Zenith Moon Warpers, Brodkil, Neuron Beast, Splugorth Slaver, Rhino-Bufflo (Only when aged), Thornhead, Witchling, Xiticix, Mountain Giants, Devil Unicorn, Great Dream Snake, Grigleapers, Gwylack, Leatherwing (noted to be so common their numbers in the west to be in the millions), Oborus-Slitherer, Ostrosaurus, Panthera-Tereon (the first one noted to actual behave like an animal and not over hunt an area), Phantasm, Silonar, Tiger Claw Raptor, Tree Spiders, Tyrannosaurus Rex, Worm Wraith, Fallam, Blood Lizard, Larhold, Larhold Warbison, Aqua-Hydra, Crab Warriors, Dragonfish, Horned Demon-Fish, Swamp-Sludger, Water Serpents, Giant Waterstriders, Soul Worms, Minions of Inix, Pincer Warriors, Greot Hunter, Yeno, Armored Slayer, Bears (Both literal and mutant, the literal bears are listed with H.P / S.D.C, with an MDC note of "Equivalent to 2-3 M.D.C", even though their totals bearly stractch that, so there's a pretty bad gray area), Cadborosaurus, Fury Bettle, Giant Squid, D'Sonoqua (Included because her 'vulnerability' requires M.D.C capability to abuse to hold her underwater), Armored Devil Fish, Crawlies, Clamp-Mouth Dragonfly, Flash Beetles, Petal Thing, Temporal Raider, Man-Eagles, Plant Man-Monster, Spirit Man-Monster, Stone Giant, Teepowka, Ukt Water Serpent.

So, that's a big paragraph of back to back examples, from exclusively Rift canon, I choose not to include Japan and Madhaven (they're at a friends sue me), Underseas (Relevance) and Conversion books at this time. Every other rifts book is included if memory serves. I have only included R.C.C's noted for aggression or of Evil Alignment or are presented otherwise in an aggressors light. Of these, there are 9 who have a weakness easily (or somewhat) explorable to deal MD damage with otherwise S.D.C tools. 8 of these are S.D.C without technology. There are 78 Monsters (not counting Gargoyle or Xiticix versions). That's about 10% of the monsters listed in the game can be beaten without MDC tools of some kind. Many of these (Many being about 40-50%), are listed as being "common", only a few are denoted as Uncommon, and only a handful as "Rare". Some are listed to number "in the hundreds" for an area the size of a state, others have listings in "the thousands". A huge amount of these are listed in the US West, so I wouldn't want to live there come the end of the world.

Also, animals are FAR smarter then you give them credit for when it comes to themselves. All it takes is an animal with supernatural strength to bump into a tree and watch it explode to try it again and realize it's now a walking god of the animal kingdom.

Animals who are MD who are being 'tamed' by someone without MD capabilties will have a rude suprise for their breeder when it bucks it from his back with enough force to split him apart and turn him into human pudding, or fails to register the SD cattle prod.

Many of the Demon / predators are noted to eat often, depicted as horible things that just -like- killing things, or live in enough of a group that a town will not sustain their eating habits for long (well, assumed eating habits, they don't always denote amount / time between meals). The Soul Slugs are shown to NEED to eat a human once per 4 Days, but enjoy once per 2 days when able. Given a town, I suspect they will eat every day.


Holy jeeps you guys had an entire back and forth already ><
And before you claim otherwise, if the Good MDC creatures (who are by far the minority) helped humanity get by along with human mages, how'd Prosek get into power?

jaymz wrote:True enough but if it has some buddies in hell that are about to return.......that could be bad for the village that beat the demon only to have 4 show up a year later is all.

this presumes the demon (and/or its buddies) have some way of getting to that location anyways. don't they have to be summoned? (or randomly rifted, etc).

Shark_Force wrote:

jaymz wrote:True enough but if it has some buddies in hell that are about to return.......that could be bad for the village that beat the demon only to have 4 show up a year later is all.

this presumes the demon (and/or its buddies) have some way of getting to that location anyways. don't they have to be summoned? (or randomly rifted, etc).

They don;t seem to have an issue with invading an entire dimension (phaseworld) so i would think it isn't that hard to get back to Rifst earth if they choose to.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:o & i just relised a 10:1 scale means we srsly need to change rail guns & rockets otherwise u get railguns doin 1D4x10SDC per shot & 1D4x100SDC per burst so their just heavy machineguns that cost as much as sports cars

Actually since that is whatthey were considered that is what the essentially are. They also have superior range, weigh about the same and can fir at a much higher rate than the typical mg can along with carrying more ammo. They may do teh same damage per round bt railguns will end p still doing upwards of double the damage of a Hvy MG with bursts. Besides how many people actually use a the single fire option on a railgun anyway? A 10-1 ration may in fact allow people to think and use it against unarmoured oppoents now since it will put down a typical human with nor armour instead of blowing them completely apart.

oh god thats so lame. why woud anyone pay like 100k for a railgun that weighs a jilion pounds & needs expensive ammo & has a radioactive nuclear power doodad that u have to lug around when u can get a machinegun for 1 or 2% of the price & do as much damage? all the other weapons on a 10:1 MDC scale are totes badass & do way more damage than their SDC equivs but railguns basicly get turned into silly crap that only chumps & zilionares buy. ditto a buncha MDC rockets & grenades.

railguns & explosives are totes things that need their damage boosted before you do the 10:1 rule to em

Since Machine guns only fire in bursts ( and I think Railguns as depicted should do the same) machine guns only do at most 1/2 the damage of a railgun burst. Also the railguns still have longer range and do not weigh any more than a heavy machine gun does.

Also read the rest of my post. I make otehr cahnges as well not JUST the SDC-MDC ratio. Weapons damages in some cases are one of them.