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So I just read in the Game Master Guide that you can't dodge lasers and projectile weapons.. Some classes can try with a -10 ...is this new?

Define "new."

Killer Cyborg wrote:Define "new."

Newer? I dunno.. back in the day..mid nineties we always dodged everything. So is this in The RUE too?

I mean I guess this is the first time I have seen it clearly said that you can not dodge gun fire

I don't use the -10 penalty in my games because my games are deadly enough without it.

Feel free to use or not use the rule at your discretion.

It showed up originally in Warlords of RUssia I believe. The newest incarnation (ala RUE) is actually not so bad. -10 to dodge modern weapons (for everyone) at 10ft or less and -5 to dodge (for eveyone) upto 50ft away. HOwever I ignore the part that says only PP or OCC bonuses apply (thus you dont get your full dodge bonus). I allow full dodge bonuses to apply in order totry and negate the penalties as much as possible.

dante144 wrote:I mean I guess this is the first time I have seen it clearly said that you can not dodge gun fire

It first showed up, I believe, in Rifts: Japan.
Quite controversial at the time, and still not that popular.

RUE made things a bit better.

For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Mercdog wrote:For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Uh, how can you pre-emptive dodge if you have initiative and do now know if anyone is going to fire at you to begin with?

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Uh, how can you pre-emptive dodge if you have initiative and do now know if anyone is going to fire at you to begin with?

Spending their entire turn zig-zagging at random?

Cinos wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Uh, how can you pre-emptive dodge if you have initiative and do now know if anyone is going to fire at you to begin with?

Spending their entire turn zig-zagging at random?

I call that "evasive action" and handle it differently than a dodge. Instead, it gives any attackers a set penalty to strike. Then again, my ranged combat rules are a bit more... involved... than Palladium's original set.

Cinos wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Uh, how can you pre-emptive dodge if you have initiative and do now know if anyone is going to fire at you to begin with?

Spending their entire turn zig-zagging at random?

Isnt that what the full dodge is in RUE? (you get an additional bonus but cannot take an actions)

jaymz wrote:

Cinos wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Uh, how can you pre-emptive dodge if you have initiative and do now know if anyone is going to fire at you to begin with?

Spending their entire turn zig-zagging at random?

Isnt that what the full dodge is in RUE? (you get an additional bonus but cannot take an actions)

I donno, I stopped using Cannon before RUE, so it's all kind of a haze to me.

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Uh, how can you pre-emptive dodge if you have initiative and do now know if anyone is going to fire at you to begin with?

If you mean "don't know" anyone is going to fire at you, then it would be a surprise attack you wouldn't be aware of and wouldn't have rolled initiative until after the shot was fired and combat actually began. At least, I believe that is how it works for attacks you are unaware of, isn't it?

If you meant "do know" the attack is coming and have initiative, then your character can zig-zag, dive for cover, drop low and move in a chaotic bob & weave, etc. How you call that is up to you, but essentially its making you a moving target that the shooter must adjust his aim to hit.

But yes, I guess it is essentially a Full Dodge, I just call it a pre-emptive dodge because you arent' waiting for the attack to come. You are actively avoiding the attack in hopes of making things more difficult for the attacker. A Full Dodge, I view as more of a "Get the hell out of the way NOW!" defensive action, like diving to the side to avoid an oncoming car at the last second.

Meh, potato/patahto.

Mercdog wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Mercdog wrote:For me, it all depends on when the Dodge occurs.
I allow for pre-emptive dodging if you have the Initiative, so you can Dodge with Full Bonuses and then the shooter must beat your roll.
If the shooter has Initiative and fires first, then the -10 penalty to Dodge applies. For reactionary dodging, only PP and Auto-Dodge Bonuses apply to the roll.

Uh, how can you pre-emptive dodge if you have initiative and do now know if anyone is going to fire at you to begin with?

If you mean "don't know" anyone is going to fire at you, then it would be a surprise attack you wouldn't be aware of and wouldn't have rolled initiative until after the shot was fired and combat actually began. At least, I believe that is how it works for attacks you are unaware of, isn't it?

If you meant "do know" the attack is coming and have initiative, then your character can zig-zag, dive for cover, drop low and move in a chaotic bob & weave, etc. How you call that is up to you, but essentially its making you a moving target that the shooter must adjust his aim to hit.

But yes, I guess it is essentially a Full Dodge, I just call it a pre-emptive dodge because you arent' waiting for the attack to come. You are actively avoiding the attack in hopes of making things more difficult for the attacker. A Full Dodge, I view as more of a "Get the hell out of the way NOW!" defensive action, like diving to the side to avoid an oncoming car at the last second.

Meh, potato/patahto.

Ok so if you have initiative and fire then get fired at that is a surprise attack? In your game anyway?

jaymz wrote:
Ok so if you have initiative and fire then get fired at that is a surprise attack? In your game anyway?

? Maybe I'm just not understanding your question.

If you are currently in combat and know someone is going to be shooting at you, yes you get to roll initiative. If you are not in combat and are unaware someone will be taking a shot at you, you do not. Unless I'm misremembering, in such a surprise situation, only an Automatic Dodge is possible, and would still be faced with the -10 penalty.

If you win initiative and you are aware your opponent has a gun, you have a few options; One possibility is to attack, and one possibility is to Dodge. If you have the initiative and choose to dodge (Say, because you don't happen to have a weapon handy and the opponent is too far away to just punch in the face), then you get full dodge bonuses.

If you don't have initiative and your enemy fires his weapon, you can try to dodge, but have only your PP bonuses (and possible Auto-Dodge bonuses if you have Automatic Dodge) to off-set the -10 penalty.

Maybe I'm just not expressing myself properly today.
If that is the case, I apologize, and hope I've clarified things. The basic gist of my logic is that it's easier to dodge a bullet by getting out of the way before the gun is fired than it is to dodge one after it has left the gun and is speeding toward you.

dante144 wrote:So I just read in the Game Master Guide that you can't dodge lasers and projectile weapons.. Some classes can try with a -10 ...is this new?

Everyone can dodge lasers; any energy weapon actually. Gunfire too.

Pg. 361 in R:UE has a large-bolded header titled, "Dodging Bullets & Energy Blasts". As for "new", this has been in R:UE since at least 2005 (date on my copy), so that would make it a rule that is at least 6 years old. Kinda why KC asked for you to define "new".

Mercdog -

As i read the dodgle rules you get full bonuses to dodge during any melee whether you have initiative or not. Only PP bonuses to dodge offset the -10/-5 rule but that rule is only in effect within 50 ft of the shooter/target. Beyond that all bonuses apply.

Now if I read your post right, that is how you run it in your games but is not what I said above?

jaymz wrote:Mercdog -

As i read the dodgle rules you get full bonuses to dodge during any melee whether you have initiative or not. Only PP bonuses to dodge offset the -10/-5 rule but that rule is only in effect within 50 ft of the shooter/target. Beyond that all bonuses apply.

Now if I read your post right, that is how you run it in your games but is not what I said above?

Against normal hand to hand and melee attacks, your character will always get full bonuses to dodge, whether you have initiative or not. But to get full bonuses to dodge against bullets/lasers, they would have to declare a full dodge before the enemy fired his weapon. I've ruled that, normally, that requires them to have the initiative and declare the dodge instead of an attack. As far as distance issues, I've always ruled it as -10 under 50 feet, -5 over 50 feet. I know that differs from the book, but, IMO, I think it's more realistic
I'm probably still not explaining very well, but I'm not really sure how else to explain it, other than give an example.

Me: OK, Dave, you know the sniper's general location, but he caught you away from your big guns. Good thing he missed that first shot. Roll Initiative.
Dave: I got a 17.
Me: And he's got a 10. What do you want to do?
Dave: He's out of range for my pistol right?
Me: Yes.
Dave: All right, I'll do a Full Dodge and try to get to my motorcycle so I can grab my laser rifle. I've got a 10, plus 4 for my bonuses.
Me: OK, he needs a 14 to hit you. Nope, with bonuses he only made a 12.
(Skip to next initiative)
Me: Roll initiative. Sniper's got an 17.
Dave: I've got... an 8.
Me: Bad, luck. Sniper's taking his shot. He's got a 15 to strike.
Dave: I'll try to dodge it. Roll out of the way or something
Me: OK. He's over 50 feet away, but it's still a laser weapon, so you've got -5 to dodge, and you only get your PP bonus to add this time.
Dave: Here goes... I rolled a 19. -5 gets me a 14, but I do have +1 to dodge from PP, so I've got a 15 to dodge total.
Me: Ok, that's good enough, as defender, you only need to tie his roll. But you do feel the heat of his laser burn through your cloak at your left side.
Dave: Too close for comfort. I hope the others can find a way to flank him soon.

I hope that helps illustrate what I mean.

Ok so basically you house rule it a bit. No worries I think I get it now.

Though I do have one question. In your example you have the dodger at a -5 because the sniper is over 50 feet away. Are you still using and older version of the -10/-5 rule? RUE updated it to be -10 out to 10ft and -5 out to 50ft and no penalty beyond that.

jaymz wrote:Ok so basically you house rule it a bit. No worries I think I get it now.

Though I do have one question. In your example you have the dodger at a -5 because the sniper is over 50 feet away. Are you still using and older version of the -10/-5 rule? RUE updated it to be -10 out to 10ft and -5 out to 50ft and no penalty beyond that.

Pretty much. There's a couple of the RUE updated rules that make less sense to me than the older rules (Robotic/Supernatural PS and melee weapons for example), so I disregard them in favor of older rules that seem to (IMHO, anyway) work a little better or make a little more sense to me.