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Svartalf wrote:it isn't cannon because people don't agree with what is depicted in spite of complete lack of evidence that the picture contradicts world facts.

There are cases of non canon art, like when a picture appears next to something, but doesn't fit the actual game facts, or when art that wasn't made for Rifts, but just fits the atmosphere is used (like many early Rifter covers). However, a piece of art that depicts a specific aspect of Rifts, and was commissioned for use in the book, odds are that it actually is canon (or it would have been rejected. NO! we want it that way, do over)

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Bood Samel wrote:If the art gets approved and sees print why isn't cannon? In my campaigns I've always went by the little things in the art, like Perez including the necronomicon and one of the books of Solomon (which implies both exist stiff in rifts).

coz the artists dont rly have much to do with things past Kev sayin 'here is a character class, draw it!' or 'thats a kewl monster, i will stat it!'. art direction is just one of them things where pally doesnt seem woried about keepin everything tight & preplanned & focused like a lot of newer rpg companies that put more value in presentation

ur never gonna see somethin in a pally game like Exalteds big cast of recurin signature NPCs that represent all the main stats & keep cropin up everywhere in the art to help ilustrate a lotta points

Svartalf wrote:it isn't cannon because people don't agree with what is depicted in spite of complete lack of evidence that the picture contradicts world facts.

Cinos wrote:Most of the art work is cannon, it's just when they get a bit recycle happy things can start to break down.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Svartalf wrote:it isn't cannon because people don't agree with what is depicted in spite of complete lack of evidence that the picture contradicts world facts.

How's about a HUGE PILE OF EVIDENCE where the picture contradicts the facts.

Cinos wrote:Most of the art work is cannon, it's just when they get a bit recycle happy things can start to break down.

None of the art work is canon.


Look at the following examples of just how off the artwork is compared to the actual items in-question, starting with my personal favorite;

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 111, the Iron Bolt Missile Vehicle.
"Weapon Systems
1. ML-12-Long Range Missile System(1): This box launcher holds two rows of six missiles, which can be fired in any order the gunner chooses...."
The picture has two rows with only five ports, yet amazingly you can still bang off missiles 11 and 12, despite not having a port for them.

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 125, the Personal force fields section.
"N-F10A Light Force Field
...is worn as two crossed belts..."
That crazy, as well as the guy he is attacking are clearly not wearing any of the Naruni force fields, the only force fields described in the section.
So why then is the picture there? Hopefully not to showcase exactly what these force fields look like.

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 132-133, the Juggernaut - Heavy Hover Tank
"Weapon Systems
3. Mini-missile Launchers in Turret(8): These launchers come four on each side of the turret..."
There are eight ports on one side. Clearly this is not a picture of a Juggernaut.

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 138, Nomad Scout Robot
"Weapon Systems
1. Rail Gun Turret: ...The weapon can rotate up 180 degrees..."
Was that a typo? Did they mean "up to" so the thing can turn around?
"...allowing it to track airborne targets."
Nope, they meant up, even though none of that sentence is correct, given that there is no way that gun can even point up, much less 90 degrees, let-alone completely flipping itself over for a 180.


Enough picking on Rifts Mercenaries, let's see what a minor glance at other books yields...

Rifts New West
pg. 185, Wild Weasel SAMAS
"Weapon Systems
Arm Mounted Short-Range Plasma Ejectors(2): Mounted on each forearm is a small laser..."
...but I thought they were plasma ejectors... (this is a clear case of typoid, which the writer contracted. He escaped before he could be euthanized)

The big one though comes from the cover art:
That horse is ejecting casings from its mouth.
That (a machinegun) is not an available option for any of the robot horses (pg.196 Special Robot Features). As well, I'm gonna doubt that it has infinite bullet casings (which would be a feature that went undescribed) to eject when it fires its unlimited-shots energy weapons.

Rifts: Ultimate Edition
Here's the big one that goes to show pics aren't canon.
pg.73, the Glitterboy statistics state that it holds 1000 rounds for its boomgun.
The size of a boomgun shell is 2 inches in diameter by 7 inches in length.
This translates to: pie times radius squared times height (3.14x1[sup]2[/sup]x7)
That's 21.98 cubic inches.
times 1000 = 21980 cubic inches.
divided by 12 = 1831.67 cubic feet.

The room I'm typing to you from is about 9 x 9 x 8 feet, or 648 cubic feet. That's about 1/3 the area the boomgun's shells take up, and the Glitterboy is only 10'5".

That, gentlemen (and ladies) is why pictures are not canon.

Misfit KotLD wrote:Because it's why Psi-Stalkers all now look like Powder.

Bood Samel wrote:If the art gets approved and sees print why isn't cannon?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Bood Samel wrote:If the art gets approved and sees print why isn't cannon?

Because a cannon is piece of artillery that used explosives to launch projectiles.

Misfit KotLD wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Bood Samel wrote:If the art gets approved and sees print why isn't cannon?

Because a cannon is piece of artillery that used explosives to launch projectiles.

Mythbusters can make a duct tape cannon. I bet they can make a paper and canvas one too.

keir451 wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Svartalf wrote:it isn't cannon because people don't agree with what is depicted in spite of complete lack of evidence that the picture contradicts world facts.

How's about a HUGE PILE OF EVIDENCE where the picture contradicts the facts.

Cinos wrote:Most of the art work is cannon, it's just when they get a bit recycle happy things can start to break down.

None of the art work is canon.


Look at the following examples of just how off the artwork is compared to the actual items in-question, starting with my personal favorite;

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 111, the Iron Bolt Missile Vehicle.
"Weapon Systems
1. ML-12-Long Range Missile System(1): This box launcher holds two rows of six missiles, which can be fired in any order the gunner chooses...."
The picture has two rows with only five ports, yet amazingly you can still bang off missiles 11 and 12, despite not having a port for them.

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 125, the Personal force fields section.
"N-F10A Light Force Field
...is worn as two crossed belts..."
That crazy, as well as the guy he is attacking are clearly not wearing any of the Naruni force fields, the only force fields described in the section.
So why then is the picture there? Hopefully not to showcase exactly what these force fields look like.

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 132-133, the Juggernaut - Heavy Hover Tank
"Weapon Systems
3. Mini-missile Launchers in Turret(8): These launchers come four on each side of the turret..."
There are eight ports on one side. Clearly this is not a picture of a Juggernaut.

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 138, Nomad Scout Robot
"Weapon Systems
1. Rail Gun Turret: ...The weapon can rotate up 180 degrees..."
Was that a typo? Did they mean "up to" so the thing can turn around?
"...allowing it to track airborne targets."
Nope, they meant up, even though none of that sentence is correct, given that there is no way that gun can even point up, much less 90 degrees, let-alone completely flipping itself over for a 180.


Enough picking on Rifts Mercenaries, let's see what a minor glance at other books yields...

Rifts New West
pg. 185, Wild Weasel SAMAS
"Weapon Systems
Arm Mounted Short-Range Plasma Ejectors(2): Mounted on each forearm is a small laser..."
...but I thought they were plasma ejectors... (this is a clear case of typoid, which the writer contracted. He escaped before he could be euthanized)

The big one though comes from the cover art:
That horse is ejecting casings from its mouth.
That (a machinegun) is not an available option for any of the robot horses (pg.196 Special Robot Features). As well, I'm gonna doubt that it has infinite bullet casings (which would be a feature that went undescribed) to eject when it fires its unlimited-shots energy weapons.

Rifts: Ultimate Edition
Here's the big one that goes to show pics aren't canon.
pg.73, the Glitterboy statistics state that it holds 1000 rounds for its boomgun.
The size of a boomgun shell is 2 inches in diameter by 7 inches in length.
This translates to: pie times radius squared times height (3.14x1[sup]2[/sup]x7)
That's 21.98 cubic inches.
times 1000 = 21980 cubic inches.
divided by 12 = 1831.67 cubic feet.

The room I'm typing to you from is about 9 x 9 x 8 feet, or 648 cubic feet. That's about 1/3 the area the boomgun's shells take up, and the Glitterboy is only 10'5".

That, gentlemen (and ladies) is why pictures are not canon.

No arguments at all, instead I'd like to add one; The Shemarrian Railgun is stated to always be destroyed w/the Shemarrian, yet in Vampire Kingdoms there is picture of a person w/a Shemarrian railgun propped against the building next to him.
Basically most vehicle depictions are probably meant to be canon, but the rest is most likely fluff or filler.

Splynnys Girlfriend wrote:

Bood Samel wrote:If the art gets approved and sees print why isn't cannon? In my campaigns I've always went by the little things in the art, like Perez including the necronomicon and one of the books of Solomon (which implies both exist stiff in rifts).

coz the artists dont rly have much to do with things past Kev sayin 'here is a character class, draw it!' or 'thats a kewl monster, i will stat it!'. art direction is just one of them things where pally doesnt seem woried about keepin everything tight & preplanned & focused like a lot of newer rpg companies that put more value in presentation

ur never gonna see somethin in a pally game like Exalteds big cast of recurin signature NPCs that represent all the main stats & keep cropin up everywhere in the art to help ilustrate a lotta points

Dog_O_War wrote:

Svartalf wrote:it isn't cannon because people don't agree with what is depicted in spite of complete lack of evidence that the picture contradicts world facts.

How's about a HUGE PILE OF EVIDENCE where the picture contradicts the facts.

Cinos wrote:Most of the art work is cannon, it's just when they get a bit recycle happy things can start to break down.

None of the art work is canon.


Look at the following examples of just how off the artwork is compared to the actual items in-question, starting with my personal favorite;

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 111, the Iron Bolt Missile Vehicle.
"Weapon Systems
1. ML-12-Long Range Missile System(1): This box launcher holds two rows of six missiles, which can be fired in any order the gunner chooses...."
The picture has two rows with only five ports, yet amazingly you can still bang off missiles 11 and 12, despite not having a port for them.
OK, a common problem with Breaux pix is that the only places where the pics were consistently accurate was in Aliens Unlimited and such places where the matter was actually a Breaux creation. So maybe we should look at artist as part of a bunch of evidence?

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 125, the Personal force fields section.
"N-F10A Light Force Field
...is worn as two crossed belts..."
That crazy, as well as the guy he is attacking are clearly not wearing any of the Naruni force fields, the only force fields described in the section.
So why then is the picture there? Hopefully not to showcase exactly what these force fields look like.
that illo does not make sense as a force field illo, so how about it being there as a cool, and fairly canon combat illo that has nothing to do with the fact it's next to the force fields ?

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 132-133, the Juggernaut - Heavy Hover Tank
"Weapon Systems
3. Mini-missile Launchers in Turret(8): These launchers come four on each side of the turret..."
There are eight ports on one side. Clearly this is not a picture of a Juggernaut.
Breaux being unable to interpret a description to depict it accurately?


Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 138, Nomad Scout Robot
"Weapon Systems
1. Rail Gun Turret: ...The weapon can rotate up 180 degrees..."
Was that a typo? Did they mean "up to" so the thing can turn around?
"...allowing it to track airborne targets."
Nope, they meant up, even though none of that sentence is correct, given that there is no way that gun can even point up, much less 90 degrees, let-alone completely flipping itself over for a 180.
Breaux


Enough picking on Rifts Mercenaries, let's see what a minor glance at other books yields...

Rifts New West
pg. 185, Wild Weasel SAMAS
"Weapon Systems
Arm Mounted Short-Range Plasma Ejectors(2): Mounted on each forearm is a small laser..."
...but I thought they were plasma ejectors... (this is a clear case of typoid, which the writer contracted. He escaped before he could be euthanized)

The big one though comes from the cover art:
That horse is ejecting casings from its mouth.
That (a machinegun) is not an available option for any of the robot horses (pg.196 Special Robot Features). As well, I'm gonna doubt that it has infinite bullet casings (which would be a feature that went undescribed) to eject when it fires its unlimited-shots energy weapons.
a) I don't know if Zeleznik actually makes his arts to specs, since he's usually hired only for covers
b) given that the covers are usually ordered and delivered looooong before the book is even properly in production (remember how the cover for 3 Galaxies is obviously the one they ordered when there was supposed to be an actual Cosmo Knights book?), it's unlikely that Zeleznik had any kind of in-book stuff to draw inspiration of, so he just did a generic SF/western picture

Rifts: Ultimate Edition
Here's the big one that goes to show pics aren't canon.
pg.73, the Glitterboy statistics state that it holds 1000 rounds for its boomgun.
The size of a boomgun shell is 2 inches in diameter by 7 inches in length.
This translates to: pie times radius squared times height (3.14x1[sup]2[/sup]x7)
That's 21.98 cubic inches.
times 1000 = 21980 cubic inches.
divided by 12 = 1831.67 cubic feet.

The room I'm typing to you from is about 9 x 9 x 8 feet, or 648 cubic feet. That's about 1/3 the area the boomgun's shells take up, and the Glitterboy is only 10'5".

That, gentlemen (and ladies) is why pictures are not canon.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

keir451 wrote:No arguments at all, instead I'd like to add one; The Shemarrian Railgun is stated to always be destroyed w/the Shemarrian, yet in Vampire Kingdoms there is picture of a person w/a Shemarrian railgun propped against the building next to him.
Basically most vehicle depictions are probably meant to be canon, but the rest is most likely fluff or filler.

That person might well be an android.

Svartalf wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:

Svartalf wrote:it isn't cannon because people don't agree with what is depicted in spite of complete lack of evidence that the picture contradicts world facts.

How's about a HUGE PILE OF EVIDENCE where the picture contradicts the facts.

Cinos wrote:Most of the art work is cannon, it's just when they get a bit recycle happy things can start to break down.

None of the art work is canon.


Look at the following examples of just how off the artwork is compared to the actual items in-question, starting with my personal favorite;

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 111, the Iron Bolt Missile Vehicle.
"Weapon Systems
1. ML-12-Long Range Missile System(1): This box launcher holds two rows of six missiles, which can be fired in any order the gunner chooses...."
The picture has two rows with only five ports, yet amazingly you can still bang off missiles 11 and 12, despite not having a port for them.
OK, a common problem with Breaux pix is that the only places where the pics were consistently accurate was in Aliens Unlimited and such places where the matter was actually a Breaux creation. So maybe we should look at artist as part of a bunch of evidence?

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 125, the Personal force fields section.
"N-F10A Light Force Field
...is worn as two crossed belts..."
That crazy, as well as the guy he is attacking are clearly not wearing any of the Naruni force fields, the only force fields described in the section.
So why then is the picture there? Hopefully not to showcase exactly what these force fields look like.
that illo does not make sense as a force field illo, so how about it being there as a cool, and fairly canon combat illo that has nothing to do with the fact it's next to the force fields ?

Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 132-133, the Juggernaut - Heavy Hover Tank
"Weapon Systems
3. Mini-missile Launchers in Turret(8): These launchers come four on each side of the turret..."
There are eight ports on one side. Clearly this is not a picture of a Juggernaut.
Breaux being unable to interpret a description to depict it accurately?


Rifts Mercenaries
pg. 138, Nomad Scout Robot
"Weapon Systems
1. Rail Gun Turret: ...The weapon can rotate up 180 degrees..."
Was that a typo? Did they mean "up to" so the thing can turn around?
"...allowing it to track airborne targets."
Nope, they meant up, even though none of that sentence is correct, given that there is no way that gun can even point up, much less 90 degrees, let-alone completely flipping itself over for a 180.
Breaux


Enough picking on Rifts Mercenaries, let's see what a minor glance at other books yields...

Rifts New West
pg. 185, Wild Weasel SAMAS
"Weapon Systems
Arm Mounted Short-Range Plasma Ejectors(2): Mounted on each forearm is a small laser..."
...but I thought they were plasma ejectors... (this is a clear case of typoid, which the writer contracted. He escaped before he could be euthanized)

The big one though comes from the cover art:
That horse is ejecting casings from its mouth.
That (a machinegun) is not an available option for any of the robot horses (pg.196 Special Robot Features). As well, I'm gonna doubt that it has infinite bullet casings (which would be a feature that went undescribed) to eject when it fires its unlimited-shots energy weapons.
a) I don't know if Zeleznik actually makes his arts to specs, since he's usually hired only for covers
b) given that the covers are usually ordered and delivered looooong before the book is even properly in production (remember how the cover for 3 Galaxies is obviously the one they ordered when there was supposed to be an actual Cosmo Knights book?), it's unlikely that Zeleznik had any kind of in-book stuff to draw inspiration of, so he just did a generic SF/western picture

Rifts: Ultimate Edition
Here's the big one that goes to show pics aren't canon.
pg.73, the Glitterboy statistics state that it holds 1000 rounds for its boomgun.
The size of a boomgun shell is 2 inches in diameter by 7 inches in length.
This translates to: pie times radius squared times height (3.14x1[sup]2[/sup]x7)
That's 21.98 cubic inches.
times 1000 = 21980 cubic inches.
divided by 12 = 1831.67 cubic feet.

The room I'm typing to you from is about 9 x 9 x 8 feet, or 648 cubic feet. That's about 1/3 the area the boomgun's shells take up, and the Glitterboy is only 10'5".

That, gentlemen (and ladies) is why pictures are not canon.

Actually, you got that wrong...
a) you sure it's 1.000 rounds? my ROE says only 100, which is more logical, since a boom gun round is a cartridge holding 200 normal railgun flechettes
b) there's 1728 cuinch per cufoot, not 12
so even taking your inflated round count
21980/1728 = 12.72 cubic feet
Given that this volume should be covered by a box roughly 2'x2'x3', which seems not incompatible with the one I can see on the picture of a Glitterboy's back on p219 ROE, it means that the picture actually IS canon and either you misread or RUE accumulated typos that were unknown in previous versions

Armorlord wrote:When it comes down to it, there's a long history of artwork that is at best 'inspired' by the subject. At worst they put a picture that's sort of on topic nearby.
Examples range from the absolutely awesome looking cover to Pantheons of the Megaverse that doesn't match to the Thor in that book, to T-Rex robots with crotch lasers, to pretty much all the Glitter-Girl art.
Art is meant to look cool, but it isn't always technically accurate.

Vrykolas2k wrote:

keir451 wrote:No arguments at all, instead I'd like to add one; The Shemarrian Railgun is stated to always be destroyed w/the Shemarrian, yet in Vampire Kingdoms there is picture of a person w/a Shemarrian railgun propped against the building next to him.
Basically most vehicle depictions are probably meant to be canon, but the rest is most likely fluff or filler.

That person might well be an android.

Indeed. I'm now wondering if that bit of Shemarrian Nation wasn't inspired by that piece of art.

keir451 wrote:Which part of Shemarrian Nation, the Male Shemarrians or the gun?

Svartalf wrote:Is that official? Nothing to prevent Archie from booby trapping the gun so it self destructs the moment its linked Shemarrian is destroyed (like, it requires a radio signal to delay the self destruct charge every few seconds... no more signal, no more gun)

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Is that official? Nothing to prevent Archie from booby trapping the gun so it self destructs the moment its linked Shemarrian is destroyed (like, it requires a radio signal to delay the self destruct charge every few seconds... no more signal, no more gun)

There is nothing preventing ARCHIE from doing that, but in canon KC is right.

Svartalf wrote:

The Galactus Kid wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Is that official? Nothing to prevent Archie from booby trapping the gun so it self destructs the moment its linked Shemarrian is destroyed (like, it requires a radio signal to delay the self destruct charge every few seconds... no more signal, no more gun)

There is nothing preventing ARCHIE from doing that, but in canon KC is right.

Canon? as in, it's specified in SB1 (old or new version), or in Shemarrian Nation, or as in "it's not mentioned so I'll make up any **** I want to"?

Bood Samel wrote:I've a done a bit of comerical art designing CDs and tattoos mainly, and in my non-professional effort I did what was asked of me and followed the guidelines. I don't see how drawing something with in the context of a text at hand is that hard to do. It seems maybe people just draw stuff with in a loose theme and KS just squeezes it in. That works well with books like FOM, because magic itself is vague and nebulous, but with tech material, like all the examples above, is just seems inconsistent.

A book where art is canon wrote:The upper left retarded looking tumor on the skelebot has 26 mdc and a heat sensor with a range of 500 feet, the middle left tumor on the robot has 20 MDC...

Svartalf wrote:[color=#0000FF]Actually, you got that wrong...
a) you sure it's 1.000 rounds? my ROE says only 100, which is more logical, since a boom gun round is a cartridge holding 200 normal railgun flechettes

b) there's 1728 cuinch per cufoot, not 12
so even taking your inflated round count
21980/1728 = 12.72 cubic feet
Given that this volume should be covered by a box roughly 2'x2'x3', which seems not incompatible with the one I can see on the picture of a Glitterboy's back on p219 ROE, it means that the picture actually IS canon and either you misread or RUE accumulated typos that were unknown in previous versions

Svartalf wrote:OK, a common problem with Breaux pix is that the only places where the pics were consistently accurate was in Aliens Unlimited and such places where the matter was actually a Breaux creation. So maybe we should look at artist as part of a bunch of evidence?

Svartalf wrote:that illo does not make sense as a force field illo, so how about it being there as a cool, and fairly canon combat illo that has nothing to do with the fact it's next to the force fields ?

Svartalf wrote:Breaux being unable to interpret a description to depict it accurately?

Svartalf wrote:a) I don't know if Zeleznik actually makes his arts to specs, since he's usually hired only for covers
b) given that the covers are usually ordered and delivered looooong before the book is even properly in production (remember how the cover for 3 Galaxies is obviously the one they ordered when there was supposed to be an actual Cosmo Knights book?), it's unlikely that Zeleznik had any kind of in-book stuff to draw inspiration of, so he just did a generic SF/western picture

Svartalf wrote:Actually, you got that wrong...
a) you sure it's 1.000 rounds? my ROE says only 100, which is more logical, since a boom gun round is a cartridge holding 200 normal railgun flechettes

Svartalf wrote:b) there's 1728 cuinch per cufoot, not 12
so even taking your inflated round count
21980/1728 = 12.72 cubic feet

Svartalf wrote:Given that this volume should be covered by a box roughly 2'x2'x3', which seems not incompatible with the one I can see on the picture of a Glitterboy's back on p219 ROE, it means that the picture actually IS canon and either you misread or RUE accumulated typos that were unknown in previous versions

Svartalf wrote:Well, the Zeleznik picture is just a scene of the New West... the fact that no robot horses with muzzle machinegus are described in the book does not in any way mean that no such bots exist, nobody said that cover depicted a specific model, did they?

Svartalf wrote:And my beef is the types who say that "no art is canon, ever". sure, not all art is. Now, if you guys intend to drag every instance of non canon art, that won't make your evidence any less anecdotal. there's also plenty of it that just is... like the bits that are specifically captioned, meaning that they are approved, or those that actually are the source of the written canon.
Art should be judged case by case, not blanketed in ignorant dumb statements.

Svartalf wrote:and you made another math fail. assuming each round occupies the full space of a parallellepiped its dimensions (2"x2"x7"), and assuming a box 2'x2'x35", I can fill it with 720 rounds, and that's not counting that the rows could be staggered to cram more ammo in, so the box does not need to be that much larger, if at all.

Dog_O_War wrote:Well, there is another way of figuring it out;
at 2 feet deep, that can accommodate 3 rows of rounds.
at 3 feet wide, that can accommodate 18 rounds side-by-side.
at 2 feet tall, that can stack 12 rounds.
12 x 18 = 216.
x 3 = 648.

That pack would have to be nearly double the size in order to accommodate 1000 rounds.

Basically, it is not even close to canon.

Svartalf wrote:Well, the Zeleznik picture is just a scene of the New West... the fact that no robot horses with muzzle machinegus are described in the book does not in any way mean that no such bots exist, nobody said that cover depicted a specific model, did they?

And my beef is the types who say that "no art is canon, ever". sure, not all art is. Now, if you guys intend to drag every instance of non canon art, that won't make your evidence any less anecdotal. there's also plenty of it that just is... like the bits that are specifically captioned, meaning that they are approved, or those that actually are the source of the written canon.
Art should be judged case by case, not blanketed in ignorant dumb statements.

and you made another math fail. assuming each round occupies the full space of a parallellepiped its dimensions (2"x2"x7"), and assuming a box 2'x2'x35", I can fill it with 720 rounds, and that's not counting that the rows could be staggered to cram more ammo in, so the box does not need to be that much larger, if at all.

Plus, if the original artwork of the GB is not cannon, given that that one too was inspired by Long's drawing, it means that it's Kev that failed, not Long.

Subjugator wrote:...I agree that art is in no way canonical (e.g. the SDF3 is not in Splynn City, guaran-frickin'-teed)...

Dog_O_War wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Well, the Zeleznik picture is just a scene of the New West... the fact that no robot horses with muzzle machinegus are described in the book does not in any way mean that no such bots exist, nobody said that cover depicted a specific model, did they?

That's just it though; my reference was not to a specific model, but to available options for all models. There is no option for machineguns in the face of the horse.
What a guy does to customize his robot horse is an entirely different situation.

Svartalf wrote:And my beef is the types who say that "no art is canon, ever". sure, not all art is. Now, if you guys intend to drag every instance of non canon art, that won't make your evidence any less anecdotal. there's also plenty of it that just is... like the bits that are specifically captioned, meaning that they are approved, or those that actually are the source of the written canon.
Art should be judged case by case, not blanketed in ignorant dumb statements.

See, what people are getting at is that art may be accurate, sure. But it does not take precedent over the written description; it is not canon even if it is an exact to-specs depiction for the afore mentioned reason.

Art does not supercede the writing. That is why art is never canon.

Svartalf wrote:and you made another math fail. assuming each round occupies the full space of a parallellepiped its dimensions (2"x2"x7"), and assuming a box 2'x2'x35", I can fill it with 720 rounds, and that's not counting that the rows could be staggered to cram more ammo in, so the box does not need to be that much larger, if at all.

This is not my concern; there is still 280 rounds left unaccounted for. Also, my math is accurate for the stacking method I used. Mainly because I don't trust that the rounds are actually stacked in the manner you're suggesting, based purely off that drawing (and where the belt feeds into the hopper).

MegaverseTraveller wrote:Determining the number of cylinders you can fit into a given ammo container is actually irrelevant to the argument, since you have no clue to the actual dimensions of the container, the shape of the container or feed mechanism of the weapon.

Since the dimensions of the round itself and dimension of the flechette is known, wouldn't a far more relevant argument be to think about the mass/weight of the ammunition.

So lets look at one flechette, the rounds outer dimension is ~2" (~5.1 cm) and holds 4 stacks of 50 flechettes per stack (200 flechettes total). Lets use some easy numbers for the flechette size that would fit inside the case, say 1/5" diameter (.5 cm) by 1" length (2.5 cm), using equal circle packing we come out to a inside diameter of ~1.6" or 1 and 3/5" (~4cm) required to contain the flechettes with minimal spacing, which leaves 0.4" (1 cm) for the outer case and items internal to the round.

(swapping to SI units for ease)
Using the .5cm by 2.5cm flechette we can calculate the volume to be 0.4910714 cm^3 (~.5 cm^3). so the total volume of the flechette material used per round is ~100cm^3.

Now lets say that the boomgun's flechettes uses a high density material that are durable enough to not to fragment, such as Tungsten Steel (has to be of high density to deliver maximum impact for the relatively small size of the round and you don't want them to splatter upon impact with the target).

A good grade of Tungsten Steel is 18.5 g/cm^3, so the total mass of the flechettes alone is ~1850 grams per round (~4 lbs). So the total mass of the flechettes required for 100 rounds would be ~400lb, for 1000 rounds it would be ~4000lbs.

Use simple napkin math just for some idea of the forces involved. When firing a APFSDS round (~32 lbs of fin-stabilized penetrator) the M-1 Tank's main gun (muzzle velocity ~mach 5) has about ~8 times the potential energy of ~4 lb mass if leaving the barrel at the same velocity. If you go lighter on the flechette material, the rounds potential energy would drop, if you go heavier on the flechette material the mass is gonna climb.

MegaverseTraveller wrote:Determining the number of cylinders you can fit into a given ammo container is actually irrelevant to the argument, since you have no clue to the actual dimensions of the container, the shape of the container or feed mechanism of the weapon.

Since the dimensions of the round itself and dimension of the flechette is known, wouldn't a far more relevant argument be to think about the mass/weight of the ammunition.

So lets look at one flechette, the rounds outer dimension is ~2" (~5.1 cm) and holds 4 stacks of 50 flechettes per stack (200 flechettes total). Lets use some easy numbers for the flechette size that would fit inside the case, say 1/5" diameter (.5 cm) by 1" length (2.5 cm), using equal circle packing we come out to a inside diameter of ~1.6" or 1 and 3/5" (~4cm) required to contain the flechettes with minimal spacing, which leaves 0.4" (1 cm) for the outer case and items internal to the round.

(swapping to SI units for ease)
Using the .5cm by 2.5cm flechette we can calculate the volume to be 0.4910714 cm^3 (~.5 cm^3). so the total volume of the flechette material used per round is ~100cm^3.

Now lets say that the boomgun's flechettes uses a high density material that are durable enough to not to fragment, such as Tungsten Steel (has to be of high density to deliver maximum impact for the relatively small size of the round and you don't want them to splatter upon impact with the target).

A good grade of Tungsten Steel is 18.5 g/cm^3, so the total mass of the flechettes alone is ~1850 grams per round (~4 lbs). So the total mass of the flechettes required for 100 rounds would be ~400lb, for 1000 rounds it would be ~4000lbs.

Use simple napkin math just for some idea of the forces involved. When firing a APFSDS round (~32 lbs of fin-stabilized penetrator) the M-1 Tank's main gun (muzzle velocity ~mach 5) has about ~8 times the potential energy of ~4 lb mass if leaving the barrel at the same velocity. If you go lighter on the flechette material, the rounds potential energy would drop, if you go heavier on the flechette material the mass is gonna climb.

Svartalf wrote:Niiice, he was batting for your side, did you notice?

Subjugator wrote:The problem with your hypothesis MT, is that you're assuming modern and existing materials (i.e. tungsten). Don't assume that the materials are what you're expecting or of the volume you're expecting.

/Sub