Head Shots

[keir451]

So I rolled up a level one Juicer just so people could see my point here (Well, actually I used the Java program I wrote that can automatically generate any NPC possible from the first Rifts book... Cause I'm an anal, but lazy GM like that using randomly generated dice rolls and what not) ANYWAYS. His hp stats are as such.

Hit Points: 53 S.D.C (Physical):110

My question/issue is this, if you take a .357 magnum (yes... SDC damage here ) and shoot this guy point blank, execution style in the back of the head - he's bound by MDC cables to a chair and et cetera. He's not going ANYWHERE (for those of you that may make a crack about his auto dodge) - He WON'T DIE! At 4D6, even with double damage straight to his hit points, its more than likely this poke will live! What are some thoughts on this?

Sorry, I don't buy it. KS used an example of character throwing himself on a grenade, taking the blast, getting up and saying "It's only SDC." and said "Sorry if you do that you're dead." So if Juicer is trussed up w/MDC cables so he cannot move and is shot in the head at point blank range w/a .357 Magnum he's DEAD. Period, end of character. Please roll up a new character.

[slade the sniper]

The way I would run it (as well as other "auto death" situations) is to just have the character die via GM fiat....

BUT if you wanted to have a rule...

penetrating injuries to the head do damage x 3 for called shots (DIRECT to HP)
penetrating injuries to vital areas of the body (heart, lung, spine, etc.) do damage x 2 for called shots (DIRECT to HP)

This makes snipers absolutely lethal in combat, just like IRL

-STS

[Killer Cyborg]

The rules are that for situations like that, SDC and HP don't matter.

[Cinos]

Why do people always jump to "The rules don't matter because of X". Learn to support rules and they can make tons of sense. People have some weird logic bending stuff happen some times. I've always had Head Shots do double damage direct to HP (Baring Crits, which be be an Additional -DOUBLE-, not just x3), I also jacked .357 to be a bit more harming (along with other relative weapon scales). In addition, they're +4 to Critical Rate (Jacking it to a 25% probability), and have high chance for blackout and a pass on a Critical Damage table for the local (most of which are crippling). While his resistance to bullet to brain case are still notable, and two rounds are likely to be needed baring a Crit on the first (I think a Crit + Low roll he could live as well). His assailants would likely be taken aback a moment by the fact the round failed to penetrate his skull case. They may even leave him for dead after he blacks out from the impact of the round and fail to check.

People who have survived crazy stuff like this defy numbers at times, even .357 to the head. Use numbers to tell stories, don't have stories that happen to have numbers in them.

[Noon]

I think in terms of story, ie drama, it doesn't matter - so what if you use five or ten bullets. He was killed. That's a dramatic story element.

And in terms of playing to win (if that's what you did) well again, your dead and you lose, regardless of bullets.

The only issue is the simulationist, who I'm really surprised if they are attracted to Rifts. That makes me think of how some people are attracted to really terrible people in terms of romance. Rifts just wont treat a simo right...but who knows, treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen?

[Traska]

I would offer up a D20 roll... roll a natural 20, and they live. They'll be mentally damaged, but it IS possible to survive cranial damage.

But as for damage rolls? The only difference between a 2D6 bullet and a 4D6 bullet will be how fine a strainer will be able to hold the gray matter soup that results.

[rat_bastard]

One, if the character is a juicer, than those drugs and implants he has received include bone enhancement, so a .357 to the head might be survivable.

Second, if the we are talking about a PC, then the very universe reshapes itself to his whim and he gets away with amnesia which is dramatically healed at the climax of the story arc.

Third, people survive close range shots with high powered weapons all the time, Look at Congresswoman Gabriel Giffords, she does not even have the benefit of being a chemically engineered superwoman.

When the target cannot dodge, make the damage hit point damage unless the shooter is aiming to wound, then make it sdc. When its a head shot and the target does not have separate hit locations for his sdc/hit points/mdc/gdc then double the head shot, and double the damage again for point blank.

[The Beast]

I'd like to point out that the CoMW book has a break-down chat of a human body's SDC/HP amount by location, and that a head has 24% of the total amount. So in your example you juicer's head would have 13 HP and 27 SDC.

[jaymz]

I'd like to point out that the CoMW book has a break-down chat of a human body's SDC/HP amount by location, and that a head has 24% of the total amount. So in your example you juicer's head would have 13 HP and 27 SDC.

IIRC someone did an even more in depth version in a Rifter article...

[The Beast]

I'd like to point out that the CoMW book has a break-down chat of a human body's SDC/HP amount by location, and that a head has 24% of the total amount. So in your example you juicer's head would have 13 HP and 27 SDC.

IIRC someone did an even more in depth version in a Rifter article...

CoMW book is more canon than the Rifter articles are though...

[rat_bastard]

CoMW?

[jaymz]

I'd like to point out that the CoMW book has a break-down chat of a human body's SDC/HP amount by location, and that a head has 24% of the total amount. So in your example you juicer's head would have 13 HP and 27 SDC.

IIRC someone did an even more in depth version in a Rifter article...

CoMW book is more canon than the Rifter articles are though...

Actually CoMW is only canon unto itself since the weapons in that book do not match up to any in the other sdc books (damages are typically higher in CoMW than thier in game equivalents for one reason or another). Besides I think the Rifter article is just more in depth and has its basis in the CoMW one. Not to mention the are plenty of thigns in teh Rifter that fill teh gap left in teh games as a whole.

[The Galactus Kid]

in this thread we argue that American senators have more HPs than juicers

Wow. And there it is.

[rat_bastard]

CoMW?

Compendium of Modern Weapons.

The way I'd rule it is matter what you sdc/Hp your dead, at least for the situation you described.

A .357 has about 750 joules of energy, even with an enhanced bone structure that's more then enough to pop your skull, not to say that the shooter also take's aim at a weaker point of the skull or use's a follow up shot or two to be sure.

The actual joules of energy means nothing when put up against an object of hypothetical hardness.

[sHaka]

I'm more interested in the story of how the juicer came to be strapped down and defenceless.

[rat_bastard]

I'm more interested in the story of how the juicer came to be strapped down and defenceless.

these kicks just keep getting harder to find...

[Dog_O_War]

So I rolled up a level one Juicer just so people could see my point here (Well, actually I used the Java program I wrote that can automatically generate any NPC possible from the first Rifts book... Cause I'm an anal, but lazy GM like that using randomly generated dice rolls and what not) ANYWAYS. His hp stats are as such.

Hit Points: 53 S.D.C (Physical):110

My question/issue is this, if you take a .357 magnum (yes... SDC damage here ) and shoot this guy point blank, execution style in the back of the head - he's bound by MDC cables to a chair and et cetera. He's not going ANYWHERE (for those of you that may make a crack about his auto dodge) - He WON'T DIE! At 4D6, even with double damage straight to his hit points, its more than likely this pr ick will live! What are some thoughts on this?

SDC is stupid when you're trying to translate real-life.

Some people are stupid when they try and translate SDC to real life.

[Traska]

in this thread we argue that American senators have more HPs than juicers

Wow. And there it is.

There's that Natural 20 I was talking about. It's possible to survive... it's just not likely.

[Spinachcat]

If x2 damage directly to HP doesn't kill a Juicer, its because the Dice Gods have declared in his favor. I don't mess with the Dice Gods.

But my NPC might just fire again....and again.

[Noon]

The moment it is a scene of someone being shot from behind in the head, using a system is silly as the result is evident.

If I were to propose to the player of the juicer 'Hey, it'd seem silly if the shot doesn't kill you - do you mind if your character just dies?' and they give the nod to it, I agree on bypassing the system.

Otherwise I use the system everyone agreed to. It gets into real deep water real fast when someone, because they think they know exactly what would happen, decides they skip as many rules as 'needed'/they like. Basing rules bypasing authority on the interpretation of fiction? Best leave that to certain sects.

Of course if it's a flat out use of the golden rule, that's part of the system. A crappy part that aught to be scrapped, but part of it.

[JuliusCreed]

So I rolled up a level one Juicer just so people could see my point here (Well, actually I used the Java program I wrote that can automatically generate any NPC possible from the first Rifts book... Cause I'm an anal, but lazy GM like that using randomly generated dice rolls and what not) ANYWAYS. His hp stats are as such.

Hit Points: 53 S.D.C (Physical):110

My question/issue is this, if you take a .357 magnum (yes... SDC damage here ) and shoot this guy point blank, execution style in the back of the head - he's bound by MDC cables to a chair and et cetera. He's not going ANYWHERE (for those of you that may make a crack about his auto dodge) - He WON'T DIE! At 4D6, even with double damage straight to his hit points, its more than likely this pr ick will live! What are some thoughts on this?

According to the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, pg 18, the damage could go one of 2 ways. You have the basic Head Shot doing double damage, triple duration of shock and blood loss, and the Brain Shot doing quadruple damage direct to HP, extensive blood loss at a rate of 4d6 HP/minute and an instant coma with the character dying in 1d6 minutes without IMMEDIATE extensive medical attention. Reading further on it is stated that damage done at Point-Blank range should typically be doubled when done to a vital area. Using the Brain Shot rules for an execution style shot such as this, your Juicer is looking at 4d6 damage multiplied by a factor of 8 (4d6 x 4 x 2 equalling 32 to 192 points of damage) going directly to HP, a further loss of 4d6 HP every minute from blood loss, and death within 1d6 minutes if he somehow manages to survive all of that.
Call the meat wagon buddy... this guy is done.

[The Beast]

I'd like to point out that the CoMW book has a break-down chat of a human body's SDC/HP amount by location, and that a head has 24% of the total amount. So in your example you juicer's head would have 13 HP and 27 SDC.

IIRC someone did an even more in depth version in a Rifter article...

CoMW book is more canon than the Rifter articles are though...

Actually CoMW is only canon unto itself since the weapons in that book do not match up to any in the other sdc books (damages are typically higher in CoMW than thier in game equivalents for one reason or another). Besides I think the Rifter article is just more in depth and has its basis in the CoMW one. Not to mention the are plenty of thigns in teh Rifter that fill teh gap left in teh games as a whole.

I think they weakened the weapons for playability in the other books.

[jaymz]

I'd like to point out that the CoMW book has a break-down chat of a human body's SDC/HP amount by location, and that a head has 24% of the total amount. So in your example you juicer's head would have 13 HP and 27 SDC.

IIRC someone did an even more in depth version in a Rifter article...

CoMW book is more canon than the Rifter articles are though...

Actually CoMW is only canon unto itself since the weapons in that book do not match up to any in the other sdc books (damages are typically higher in CoMW than thier in game equivalents for one reason or another). Besides I think the Rifter article is just more in depth and has its basis in the CoMW one. Not to mention the are plenty of thigns in teh Rifter that fill teh gap left in teh games as a whole.

I think they weakened the weapons for playability in the other books.

IIRC the damage ratings of hte the otehr games all predate the CoMW so they upped it in the CoMW rather than the reverse. I just sue CoMW and do away with what they list in the games.....

[jedi078]

My question/issue is this, if you take a .357 magnum (yes... SDC damage here ) and shoot this guy point blank, execution style in the back of the head - he's bound by MDC cables to a chair and et cetera. He's not going ANYWHERE (for those of you that may make a crack about his auto dodge) - He WON'T DIE! At 4D6, even with double damage straight to his hit points, its more than likely this pr ick will live! What are some thoughts on this?

Use common sense and rule that a character who is shot execution style in the back of his/her head with a .357 is dead.

[jedi078]

I see a lot of appeals to "common sense", but very little application of it. Okay, so what if instead of a Juicer, it's a Heroes Unlimited Immortal Godling with 499 S.D.C. and 231 Hit Points? Is it still "common sense" that he's just dead? Sounds like something you'd never face in Rifts, until you remember that a Titan Juicer can have S.D.C. and Hit Points in that range pretty easily.

It's kinda stupid and unrealistic when you shoot something in the head at point blank range execution style and the idiot GM says "Well he still has five hit points left so he's still alive."

Sometimes you just gotta let cinematics precede over game rules.

[rat_bastard]

I see a lot of appeals to "common sense", but very little application of it. Okay, so what if instead of a Juicer, it's a Heroes Unlimited Immortal Godling with 499 S.D.C. and 231 Hit Points? Is it still "common sense" that he's just dead? Sounds like something you'd never face in Rifts, until you remember that a Titan Juicer can have S.D.C. and Hit Points in that range pretty easily.

It's kinda stupid and unrealistic when you shoot something in the head at point blank range execution style and the idiot GM says "Well he still has five hit points left so he's still alive."

Sometimes you just gotta let cinematics precede over game rules.

Your right because nobody survives catastrophic injury in cinema.

The immortal godling would be MDC and could wash his face with .357 blasts to the face in rifts, and the Titan Juicer has a metal reinforced skull that is easily two inches thick as well as a cocktail of medical drugs and nano machines constantly circulating in their bodies.

[Armorlord]

If, after everything is said and done, double damage direct to HP and everything, then yes they live, after a fashion at least.

There are cases in real life, not cinematics or fiction, of people surviving gun shot wounds to the head. Crazier yet is that there are many cases of people still being functional afterward.

If someone can manage to have some HP left after taking that kind of hit, then there's a very decent chance that they can be saved. The next question down the pipe is how to work out the brain damage, and even if there is super healing of some sort available there is still a good chance of memories that are lost even if full function is restored.

[jedi078]

I would like to direct you all to this article, if I may. http://www.cracked.com/article_17573_7- ... vived.html

Nice read, and those are some VERY lucky people.

As for me I would still rule a character dead if shot in the head at point blank range. If the executee was a PC, I'd have the shooter make a strike roll. Roll a nat one, and I might just blow off an ear, or if I am feeling gruesome, blow away the jaw bone from from the right or left side so it is just hanging on the face becuse it is still attached on the opposite side. Of course this doesn't stop the executioner from taking another shot. The bottom line is that if someone has your character tied up and is going to execute your character you might as well roll up a new PC.

If a character is shot at range (like say by a sniper) I'd have the damage be x3 (or even x5) against hit points. Afterall the whole point of shooting someone in the head is to kill them, so it's only fair to ensure that death is almost certain. So now if by some chance the character still has hit points they'd need some serious medical attention as they will be losing a hit point for every minute they go without medical attention. Medical attention in this case would have to be a character possessing the medical doctor skill or field surgery skill. Each attempt would have to take 1d4 minutes of time, since we all know you just can't slap a band-aid on someones head after a bullet enters their skull. During this time the character would also be helpless, so if the shooter wanted to finish the job (or better yet shoot the medic) they have a high probably of be able to do so. If the character somehow manages to live they would have their IQ and PP reduced in relation to what percentage of hit points were lost when the bullet struck. Of course instead of doing all this it is sometimes much easier to just tell the player their character is dead.

Plus I tend to stick to realism in my games, and it is the fear of character death is one of the things the players in my games like.

[Armorlord]

I would like to direct you all to this article, if I may. http://www.cracked.com/article_17573_7- ... vived.html

And don't forget one on the topic of being shot in the head execution style with a .38 while laying in bed.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&pq=woman%20shot%20in%20head&xhr=t&q=woman+shot+in+head+makes+tea

[Killer Cyborg]

I've read a number of that kind of story.
One guy only found out what was causing his headache after he found a note on the fridge telling him he'd been shot.
Another guy was shot in the head 5 times while he was asleep in his home, and he got up and kicked the shooter's butt.

I'm betting that a lot of these were .22s though.

[rat_bastard]

Plus I tend to stick to realism in my games,

No you don't.

look at this:

I see a lot of appeals to "common sense", but very little application of it. Okay, so what if instead of a Juicer, it's a Heroes Unlimited Immortal Godling with 499 S.D.C. and 231 Hit Points? Is it still "common sense" that he's just dead? Sounds like something you'd never face in Rifts, until you remember that a Titan Juicer can have S.D.C. and Hit Points in that range pretty easily.

It's kinda stupid and unrealistic when you shoot something in the head at point blank range execution style and the idiot GM says "Well he still has five hit points left so he's still alive."

Sometimes you just gotta let cinematics precede over game rules.

Notice how you don't care that the target has the SDC of a Sherman tank? You just care that its a head shot with a revolver, the ability of the target to take the blow is not taken into account at all. The example given is a Juicer tied to a chair, a Juicer has a harder skull than a human and has a cardiovascular system full of medical drugs and nanobots designed to make the Juicer survive catastrophic injury.

[jedi078]

The example given is a Juicer tied to a chair, a Juicer has a harder skull than a human and has a cardiovascular system full of medical drugs and nanobots designed to make the Juicer survive catastrophic injury.

Tell me where it specifically states that the bio-comp system increases the density of a standard juicers bones. Yes, your standard juicer gets 1d4*100 SDC and 1d4*10 hit points, but this is a result of drugs, and not an advanced carbide ceramic material being grafted onto the skeletal structure.

Plus I tend to stick to realism in my games, and it is the fear of character death is one of the things the players in my games like.

You've been shown numerous examples of people surviving headshots and worse. You aren't "sticking to realism", you're sticking to "I like to scare my players". If that works for you, fine, but don't cloak it in "being realistic", because reality is proving you wrong.

For every example shown where someone suffered a massive trauma to their head, you have 100+ people who have suffered the same injury and have been killed. So these examples that have been shown here are the one percenters who lived. So if as a GM you want to roll to see if a character shot in the head is among that 1% so be it. That's your choice. It's not mine.

As for scaring my players...I'm not trying to scare them. I just don't coddle them, and they know this. Some GM's do coddle their players. I think those GM's suck. I don't railroad my players very often either. If they do something that changes the events of the campaign, or carry out an action that makes killing a so called major or great menace relatively easy, so be it. As the GM I have to be as flexible, if not more flexible then the players.

[Dog_O_War]

The example given is a Juicer tied to a chair, a Juicer has a harder skull than a human and has a cardiovascular system full of medical drugs and nanobots designed to make the Juicer survive catastrophic injury.

Tell me where it specifically states that the bio-comp system increases the density of a standard juicers bones. Yes, your standard juicer gets 1d4*100 SDC and 1d4*10 hit points, but this is a result of drugs, and not an advanced carbide ceramic material being grafted onto the skeletal structure.

Actually, it's a result of an increase in muscle mass and bulk. Since it's unlikely that the Juicers' head-muscles have grown to a proportionate amount as per SDC/HP by hit-location, it's safe to assume that the bones there have been naturally reinforced.
As the Bio-comp does specifically regulate other aspects of a functional human body (R:UE, pg.78 second paragraph under the italized section), which just so happens to be bones capable of supporting its weight and muscle-mass.

Also, I believe there is a blurb in Juicer Uprising about this, though I do not have the book to quote it.

[jedi078]

The example given is a Juicer tied to a chair, a Juicer has a harder skull than a human and has a cardiovascular system full of medical drugs and nanobots designed to make the Juicer survive catastrophic injury.

Tell me where it specifically states that the bio-comp system increases the density of a standard juicers bones. Yes, your standard juicer gets 1d4*100 SDC and 1d4*10 hit points, but this is a result of drugs, and not an advanced carbide ceramic material being grafted onto the skeletal structure.

Actually, it's a result of an increase in muscle mass and bulk. Since it's unlikely that the Juicers' head-muscles have grown to a proportionate amount as per SDC/HP by hit-location, it's safe to assume that the bones there have been naturally reinforced.
As the Bio-comp does specifically regulate other aspects of a functional human body (R:UE, pg.78 second paragraph under the italized section), which just so happens to be bones capable of supporting its weight and muscle-mass.

Also, I believe there is a blurb in Juicer Uprising about this, though I do not have the book to quote it.

First of all your assuming that the increase in muscle density (which is what I belive the extra 1d4*100 SDC is) directly correlates to an increase in bone density.

Anyhow, at point blank range, as in the example the OP made, I doubt increased muscle mass, or even increased bone density is going to prevent a .357 from rendering a juicers brain housing group non-operational.

[Dog_O_War]

First of all your assuming that the increase in muscle density (which is what I belive the extra 1d4*100 SDC is) directly correlates to an increase in bone density.

No, I'm assuming that the bio-comp does what it says it does, which is to keep the body optimal; weak bones are not apart of an optimal body.

Anyhow, at point blank range, as in the example the OP made, I doubt increased muscle mass, or even increased bone density is going to prevent a .357 from rendering a juicers brain housing group non-operational.

Why? Is there some part of math that makes 4d6 greater than 1d4x100?

[The Beast]

See, this is why I use the 24% rule. Against normal people a head shot would kill them. Against a good number of PCs, a head shot would have a chance to not kill them.

[jedi078]

First of all your assuming that the increase in muscle density (which is what I belive the extra 1d4*100 SDC is) directly correlates to an increase in bone density.

No, I'm assuming that the bio-comp does what it says it does, which is to keep the body optimal; weak bones are not apart of an optimal body.

Where does it specifically that the bio-comp increases bone density? Go find that for me and you might have a case.

Anyhow, at point blank range, as in the example the OP made, I doubt increased muscle mass, or even increased bone density is going to prevent a .357 from rendering a juicers brain housing group non-operational.

Why? Is there some part of math that makes 4d6 greater than 1d4x100?

There is no math involved; it's called common sense and reality. You get shot in the head and you’re dead.

I guess some pansy GM's will allow a PC to survive a point blank gunshot to the head. The reason why? The GM is afraid the player will leave his gaming table because the player just can't stand losing their character after they got captured, are tied up and then executed.

[Dog_O_War]

Anyhow, at point blank range, as in the example the OP made, I doubt increased muscle mass, or even increased bone density is going to prevent a .357 from rendering a juicers brain housing group non-operational.

Why? Is there some part of math that makes 4d6 greater than 1d4x100?

There is no math involved; it's called common sense and reality. You get shot in the head and you’re dead.

FIREBALL!

I guess some pansy GM's will allow a PC to survive a point blank gunshot to the head. The reason why? The GM is afraid the player will leave his gaming table because the player just can't stand losing their character after they got captured, are tied up and then executed.

Nothing to do with it. You're saying that a person, who at any given time has even odds of surviving a direct hit from the main cannon of an M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank, should be killed dead by the comparatively tiny .357 magnum round - because "common sense" and "reality" say that "bullets to the head are deadly".

And you are a complete hypocrite for doing so. Common sense and reality say that no amount of drugs in the world are going to make a person tough enough to survive even a 20mm round anywhere to the body, yet Juicers can survive cannons that fire rounds 10 times the size.


So why is it so hard to believe that this guy could in fact survive a bullet to the melon?

[jedi078]

Anyhow, at point blank range, as in the example the OP made, I doubt increased muscle mass, or even increased bone density is going to prevent a .357 from rendering a juicers brain housing group non-operational.

Why? Is there some part of math that makes 4d6 greater than 1d4x100?

There is no math involved; it's called common sense and reality. You get shot in the head and you’re dead.

FIREBALL!

Yeah that's a real mature answer......thanks for telling everyone you really don’t have a valid response to counter me.

I guess some pansy GM's will allow a PC to survive a point blank gunshot to the head. The reason why? The GM is afraid the player will leave his gaming table because the player just can't stand losing their character after they got captured, are tied up and then executed.

Nothing to do with it. You're saying that a person, who at any given time has even odds of surviving a direct hit from the main cannon of an M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank, should be killed dead by the comparatively tiny .357 magnum round - because "common sense" and "reality" say that "bullets to the head are deadly".

First of all a 120mm Sabot round from an M1A1 has depleted urianum core, which means it’s gonna do a heck of a lot more damage then what’s listed in the books. Fact is it’ll do the same amount of damage (if not more) as the Glitter Boy’s boom gun because we are talking about a uranium slug.

Go ahead do the math, and I think (but don’t quote me on it) a few people already did a few years ago and found that the 120mm Sabot has more kinetic force then a boom gun round.

Second the kinetic impact alone (of either a Boom gun or 120mm Sabot) is enough to rupture every organ in the Juicer body even if wearing full EBA. So no your juicer isn’t going to survive getting hit by 120mm sabot round. He might survive getting hit by a 20mm round if in EBA.

…Common sense and reality say that no amount of drugs in the world are going to make a person tough enough to survive even a 20mm round anywhere to the body….

You have JUST validated my point of view.....thanks. This is why a Juicer should wear EBA, and utilize those fast reflexes do his/her best not to get shot.

So why is it so hard to believe that this guy could in fact survive a bullet to the melon?

A 130 grain hydra shock .357 round fired by a .357 Magnum revolver with 4 inch barrel length travels at about 1400 feet per second. At point blank range, the juicer doesn’t have a chance. Besides he’s already tied up, so the player might as well just write his character off and roll up a new one.

[Armorlord]

I guess some pansy GM's will allow a PC to survive a point blank gunshot to the head. The reason why? The GM is afraid the player will leave his gaming table because the player just can't stand losing their character after they got captured, are tied up and then executed.

Nothing to do with it. You're saying that a person, who at any given time has even odds of surviving a direct hit from the main cannon of an M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank, should be killed dead by the comparatively tiny .357 magnum round - because "common sense" and "reality" say that "bullets to the head are deadly".

And you are a complete hypocrite for doing so. Common sense and reality say that no amount of drugs in the world are going to make a person tough enough to survive even a 20mm round anywhere to the body, yet Juicers can survive cannons that fire rounds 10 times the size.


So why is it so hard to believe that this guy could in fact survive a bullet to the melon?

Pretty much this.

I mean there are several layers as to why the originally stated scenario fails.
One is that, in real life, no matter what your 'common sense' thinks, people survive being shot in the head. You need to be watching a Tarantino flick (other that Kill Bill) to get that cinematic 'heads explode all the time' that you see in 'grim and gritty realistic' comics and movies. As I touched on before.
Another is, as Dog here points out, the example is using the toughest, strongest, most jacked up example of augmented human possible to try and point at to claim the whole thing is broken. Comparing for 'realism' would be closer if you took a regular human and shot them in the head, should even get results closer to the mortality rate you might expect.
Third, I agree with applying current Death Blow rolls (x2 to HP) to melee range execution shots, but if you really want to bring character SDC into this, keep in mind that it is specifically meant to model people shrugging off gunshot wounds like a John Wayne movie, so if you really love realism that much, you would really need to stop using character SDC in your games.

Amusingly, I find the idea of a Tarantino-style game full of SD weapons and characters with just HP rather entertaining. I'll have to try that someday.

[Armorlord]

First of all a 120mm Sabot round from an M1A1 has depleted urianum core, which means it’s gonna do a heck of a lot more damage then what’s listed in the books. Fact is it’ll do the same amount of damage (if not more) as the Glitter Boy’s boom gun because we are talking about a uranium slug.

No, it doesn't. It does the damage listed, which is a high amount of SD damage, while the Boom Gun does the most amount of kinetic MD damage known to mankind.

Go ahead do the math, and I think (but don’t quote me on it) a few people already did a few years ago and found that the 120mm Sabot has more kinetic force then a boom gun round.

There is no math to do because we neither live in that dimension, nor do we possess double-talk super-science that is beyond anything we currently understand. Trying to go into this field of argument is beyond pointless. Trying to argue super-science rpg vs real life goes into sadder territory then people trying to argue over which super-science sci-fi setting is stronger than the other. It is pointless wankery over factors that can't really be compared.

Second the kinetic impact alone (of either a Boom gun or 120mm Sabot) is enough to rupture every organ in the Juicer body even if wearing full EBA. So no your juicer isn’t going to survive getting hit by 120mm sabot round. He might survive getting hit by a 20mm round if in EBA.

If you want this level of 'realism', stop playing with juciers, superhumans, and, in fact, stop playing in MDC settings, superhero games, and avoid magic, the supernatural, and psionics. Why? Bacause you are going to see people survive crazy **** that you may rightly believe normal people in reality should not survive.

…Common sense and reality say that no amount of drugs in the world are going to make a person tough enough to survive even a 20mm round anywhere to the body….

You have JUST validated my point of view.....thanks. This is why a Juicer should wear EBA, and utilize those fast reflexes do his/her best not to get shot.

I think you missed his point, the conceits of the setting say that he is going to survive, whether our impressions think he should or not.

So why is it so hard to believe that this guy could in fact survive a bullet to the melon?

A 130 grain hydra shock .357 round fired by a .357 Magnum revolver with 4 inch barrel length travels at about 1400 feet per second. At point blank range, the juicer doesn’t have a chance. Besides he’s already tied up, so the player might as well just write his character off and roll up a new one.

Ok, really, if you want that level of realism, you are simply playing the wrong game. I don't mean that to be flippant or snotty. I mean that literally. I love the Megaversal system, and will gladly hump it's leg until my genitals chaffe, but if you want to go into detail about guns, weaponry, and general affect on the body to the point that you can use real world math to come up with meaningful results, you need to go over to my second favorite and take a hard look a GURPS instead. You have to use a system that matches the kind of game you want sometimes instead complaining that chocolate milk doesn't taste like apple juice.

I've only had a similar situation happen once to PC (purely through player stupidity and stubbornness), though I have had PCs or NPCs execute many an NPC. I did roll to hit (on a roll of 1 it's a miss fire), and did roll damage (4D6 quadrupled {X2 for a head shot, X2 for a point blank firearm}), if the character took less damage than his HP, he has miraculously survived the shot (this is like the bullet glancing off bone due to bad angle, a grazing, luck, etc.) and is at very least stunned, if not unconscious or in a coma. How they usually turn out is "Bang, Dead".

And that's the way folks should do it, while the number and type of multipliers people agree on vary, if you roll it out they manage to not die outright, more power to them, but for a lot of normal characters it is going to be just that when you roll it out- "Bang, Dead."

[jaymz]

Just for the record (This is to Jedi078) Exactley what juicer are we talking about here because your average juicer if hit can be killed using a standard laser rifle and that is more powerful than a 120mm Abrams gun by RAW unless using modified rounds. Does it make sense, no, and I do my things to rectify the issue but by the book a Jucier can in fact survive the 120mm of an Abrams that only does 2d4-3d4md. Now if you are talking about the 120mm of the Iron Fist from Mercenaries that is something else entirely.

I do have to ask why so many are so up in arms about how "realistic" Rifts is. I do what i do to have it make more sense not to make it more real.....

[Dog_O_War]

Anyhow, at point blank range, as in the example the OP made, I doubt increased muscle mass, or even increased bone density is going to prevent a .357 from rendering a juicers brain housing group non-operational.

Why? Is there some part of math that makes 4d6 greater than 1d4x100?

There is no math involved; it's called common sense and reality. You get shot in the head and you’re dead.

FIREBALL!

Yeah that's a real mature answer......thanks for telling everyone you really don’t have a valid response to counter me.

FIREBALL! IS the valid response. The gist of it is in my sig, but since you clearly do not understand what exactly is meant by decrying "fireball", I have to explain it.


A FIREBALL! is a thing that does not really exist. You can get a ball of thunder, but a fireball is physically impossible to achieve; it is common sense to to know that the physically impossible cannot be real.

Yet in the scope of this game, fireballs do in fact, exist - which should allow for other things that are also physically impossible - to exist.

Like people so drugged up they can take a cannon round to the chest and survive without even a broken bone.

That is why FIREBALL! alone is and will continue to be a valid response to all those whom say, "you can't do that, it's not realistic!" when the game itself has goddamn fireballs.

I guess some pansy GM's will allow a PC to survive a point blank gunshot to the head. The reason why? The GM is afraid the player will leave his gaming table because the player just can't stand losing their character after they got captured, are tied up and then executed.

Nothing to do with it. You're saying that a person, who at any given time has even odds of surviving a direct hit from the main cannon of an M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank, should be killed dead by the comparatively tiny .357 magnum round - because "common sense" and "reality" say that "bullets to the head are deadly".

First of all a 120mm Sabot round from an M1A1 has depleted urianum core, which means it’s gonna do a heck of a lot more damage then what’s listed in the books. Fact is it’ll do the same amount of damage (if not more) as the Glitter Boy’s boom gun because we are talking about a uranium slug.

Go ahead do the math, and I think (but don’t quote me on it) a few people already did a few years ago and found that the 120mm Sabot has more kinetic force then a boom gun round.

Second the kinetic impact alone (of either a Boom gun or 120mm Sabot) is enough to rupture every organ in the Juicer body even if wearing full EBA. So no your juicer isn’t going to survive getting hit by 120mm sabot round. He might survive getting hit by a 20mm round if in EBA.

Really? Do the math? Hows about I do the only math that matters; The cannon does 1d4x100 SDC. End of story.

Math done.

…Common sense and reality say that no amount of drugs in the world are going to make a person tough enough to survive even a 20mm round anywhere to the body….

You have JUST validated my point of view.....thanks. This is why a Juicer should wear EBA, and utilize those fast reflexes do his/her best not to get shot.

This is taking a quote out of context, which is against the board's CoC.

So why is it so hard to believe that this guy could in fact survive a bullet to the melon?

A 130 grain hydra shock .357 round fired by a .357 Magnum revolver with 4 inch barrel length travels at about 1400 feet per second. At point blank range, the juicer doesn’t have a chance. Besides he’s already tied up, so the player might as well just write his character off and roll up a new one.

The round does 4d6 SDC, regardless of what fluff you type there.

The Juicer has more than "a chance".

A serious question for you: can you tell the difference between our real-life reality, and in-game "reality"?

I ask this because you keep quoting facts that are true for our reality, yet have no bearing or leverage for the in-game "reality".

[The Beast]

FIREBALL!

[/quote]

Normally I hate it when you pull this crap. This time however it is appropriate when he was shown several RL examples of people surviving what's normally a fatal injury to someone's head and continues to ignore them.

[slade the sniper]

Sigh....this...thread...forces...me...

to suck it up and reply...

Ugh...

First of all a 120mm Sabot round from an M1A1 has depleted urianum core, which means it’s gonna do a heck of a lot more damage then what’s listed in the books. Fact is it’ll do the same amount of damage (if not more) as the Glitter Boy’s boom gun because we are talking about a uranium slug.

No, it doesn't. It does the damage listed, which is a high amount of SD damage, while the Boom Gun does the most amount of kinetic MD damage known to mankind.

Sigh...seriously?

Go ahead do the math, and I think (but don’t quote me on it) a few people already did a few years ago and found that the 120mm Sabot has more kinetic force then a boom gun round.

There is no math to do because we neither live in that dimension, nor do we possess double-talk super-science that is beyond anything we currently understand. Trying to go into this field of argument is beyond pointless. Trying to argue super-science rpg vs real life goes into sadder territory then people trying to argue over which super-science sci-fi setting is stronger than the other. It is pointless wankery over factors that can't really be compared.[/quote]

MD already exists...Kevin's own examples of MD (a tank) prove this...the difference is that there is an exponential increase in tensile strength of materials along with a exponential decrease in the density of these materials. THis is also "real"... theoretical in most cases, but still real enough to be around by RIFTS/ROBOTECH/various other SciFi settings that posit FTL spacecraft are available for purchase by the average upper middle class citizens...

Second the kinetic impact alone (of either a Boom gun or 120mm Sabot) is enough to rupture every organ in the Juicer body even if wearing full EBA. So no your juicer isn’t going to survive getting hit by 120mm sabot round. He might survive getting hit by a 20mm round if in EBA.

If you want this level of 'realism', stop playing with juciers, superhumans, and, in fact, stop playing in MDC settings, superhero games, and avoid magic, the supernatural, and psionics. Why? Bacause you are going to see people survive crazy **** that you may rightly believe normal people in reality should not survive.[/quote]

People survive ridiculous wounds all the time. Saw a guy with half an arm and half a leg get up and outrun a squad of guys trying to catch him...granted he had to go through houses and had about a 50 meter headstart in an urban area...but still it happened. I have also seen people that look like they just went to sleep after taking a relatively minor wound in a vital area and died quickly...internal bleeding and CNS hemmoraging does that... 1 point of SDC to the brain stem is far more deadly than 50 MDC to the hand...thus we have to deal with these numbers as abstractions and guidelines...

…Common sense and reality say that no amount of drugs in the world are going to make a person tough enough to survive even a 20mm round anywhere to the body….

You have JUST validated my point of view.....thanks. This is why a Juicer should wear EBA, and utilize those fast reflexes do his/her best not to get shot.

I think you missed his point, the conceits of the setting say that he is going to survive, whether our impressions think he should or not.[/quote]

Agreed

So why is it so hard to believe that this guy could in fact survive a bullet to the melon?

A 130 grain hydra shock .357 round fired by a .357 Magnum revolver with 4 inch barrel length travels at about 1400 feet per second. At point blank range, the juicer doesn’t have a chance. Besides he’s already tied up, so the player might as well just write his character off and roll up a new one.

Ok, really, if you want that level of realism, you are simply playing the wrong game. I don't mean that to be flippant or snotty. I mean that literally. I love the Megaversal system, and will gladly hump it's leg until my genitals chaffe, but if you want to go into detail about guns, weaponry, and general affect on the body to the point that you can use real world math to come up with meaningful results, you need to go over to my second favorite and take a hard look a GURPS instead. You have to use a system that matches the kind of game you want sometimes instead complaining that chocolate milk doesn't taste like apple juice.[/quote]

Agreed, though for my money, you can turn RIFTS into a death machine by going PE = HP and they never go up, and there is NO SDC for living critters. For normally MDC critters, you can give them PE x 10, or 100 HP or whatever number you want...it makes them scary, but not "shrug off gunshot wounds to the eyeball" retarded...

I've only had a similar situation happen once to PC (purely through player stupidity and stubbornness), though I have had PCs or NPCs execute many an NPC. I did roll to hit (on a roll of 1 it's a miss fire), and did roll damage (4D6 quadrupled {X2 for a head shot, X2 for a point blank firearm}), if the character took less damage than his HP, he has miraculously survived the shot (this is like the bullet glancing off bone due to bad angle, a grazing, luck, etc.) and is at very least stunned, if not unconscious or in a coma. How they usually turn out is "Bang, Dead".

And that's the way folks should do it, while the number and type of multipliers people agree on vary, if you roll it out they manage to not die outright, more power to them, but for a lot of normal characters it is going to be just that when you roll it out- "Bang, Dead."[/quote]

I don't kill characters, players kill characters...I have had TPK's due to player stupidity, and I have allowed PC's to live due to lucky dice and/or GOOD STORY and CHARACTERIZATION...

FIREBALL!

Normally I hate it when you pull this crap. This time however it is appropriate when he was shown several RL examples of people surviving what's normally a fatal injury to someone's head and continues to ignore them.[/quote]

As for this...wouldn't a Molotov Cocktail or a Dragonsbreath round in double barrel sawed off shotgun be the analogue of a FIREBALL? Thermite, WP grenades, flamethrowers? The effect is the important thing, right...after all spending 10 years learning how to cast FIREBALL, versus a dollar in gasoline and some thickener (of your choice), a rag, a bottle and a lighter is FAR more economically/temporally affordable than most magic... even in RIFTS. Even if magic were commonplace, most people would still drive cars instead of teleporting or use guns instead of wands...less effort on a personal level using tech than magic. Oddly enough, most people don't take the time to learn to spell, or even use spellcheck...how are they going to master the elemental powers of the universe with their iron will if spelling is too difficult?

-STS

[jedi078]

The current M1A1 sabot penetrators are made out of a Tungsten Alloy and are heavier than the old DU ones, however the DU rounds self sharpen as they penetrate the target, while the new ones don't. The Kinetic energy at the barrel of the Rheinmetall 120 mm Smoothbore firing a sabot round is about 8 times more than the boomgun round, if you figure the total mass of the flechettes at about 4lbs per round. The muzzle velocity of both is ~mach 5. The penetrator is about 32lbs for the 120mm penetrator.

Thanks for the info!

To everyone else, this is why a 120mm SABOT is going do mega damage despite what the RAW states.

Really? Do the math? Hows about I do the only math that matters; The cannon does 1d4x100 SDC. End of story.

Math done.

If you have a 4 pound object that is traveling at mach 5 and a 32 pound object traveling at mach 5 which one do you think is going to do the most damage when it hits something? That's my reason why a 120mm SABOT round fired from an M1A1 will kill a juicer, because in most cases a boom gun round will kill a juicer too. It's obvious you don't agree with me.

Just for the record (This is to Jedi078) Exactley what juicer are we talking about here because your average juicer if hit can be killed using a standard laser rifle and that is more powerful than a 120mm Abrams gun by RAW unless using modified rounds. Does it make sense, no, and I do my things to rectify the issue but by the book a Jucier can in fact survive the 120mm of an Abrams that only does 2d4-3d4md. Now if you are talking about the 120mm of the Iron Fist from Mercenaries that is something else entirely.

According to the OP a level one Juicer from the first rifts book. There is no mention of said juicer having head protection either. As for the 120mm shell issue, yes we both have found ways to rectify various issues where the RAW makes no sense.

To end my side of the argument (and maybe I should have just stated this in the first place), the biggest reason why I believe (and it appears many people don’t agree with me here but so be it that’s life) a .357 round to the head of a juicer is going to kill him is in Conversion book 1, page 18 where it states that the victim of a point blank attack may automatically be killed at the GM’s discretion.

[keir451]

@jedi078: Agreed!!! In the end wether a character dies or lives is up to GM discretion. As a GM myself, for my games, I would rule that if said Juicer took a .357 to the head, he's dead, Fred.
I would also rule that said attack, if used against a Titan Juicer, would give him little more than a headache. However if one used a .50 caliber round at point blank range then he's toast.
Also in my games if you are struck by a 120 sabot from a M1 Abrams, the round generally kills most beings, dragons and godlings may survive if they pass their save vs shock (assuming the round impacts main body, a head shot is an auto kill). The dragon, because of their regenerative abilities, will be badly hurt but probably survive. The godling on the other hand .WILL. REQUIRE. the intervention of their Deity parent and a crap loads of magical healing to survive.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you have a 4 pound object that is traveling at mach 5 and a 32 pound object traveling at mach 5 which one do you think is going to do the most damage when it hits something? That's my reason why a 120mm SABOT round fired from an M1A1 will kill a juicer, because in most cases a boom gun round will kill a juicer too. It's obvious you don't agree with me.

You're starting with a faulty premise, which is that the ammunition description and speed for the Boom Gun are accurate, when it's pretty clear that Palladium put no real thought into them.
They initially had the boom gun rounds travel mach 2, but people pointed out that wasn't impressive, so now they're listed at mach 5.
That still doesn't justify the damage that the rounds do, though.

So changing other weapon's game stats with the boom gun rounds as a standard isn't something that's going to make things make any sense.

Hell, you might as well look at the Laser Bow in New West and say, "Well, pulling back a string on a bow can generate enough energy to inflict 2d6 mega-damage, so a normal slingshot ought to inflict 1d4 MD, and hitting somebody with a car ought to inflict hundreds of MD."

Garbage in, garbage out.

[jedi078]

If you have a 4 pound object that is traveling at mach 5 and a 32 pound object traveling at mach 5 which one do you think is going to do the most damage when it hits something? That's my reason why a 120mm SABOT round fired from an M1A1 will kill a juicer, because in most cases a boom gun round will kill a juicer too. It's obvious you don't agree with me.

You're starting with a faulty premise, which is that the ammunition description and speed for the Boom Gun are accurate, when it's pretty clear that Palladium put no real thought into them.

My premise is that a 120mm SABOT round should be inflicting a lot more damage then what is stated in the books and that if that round hit a Juicer he'd be dead, just like he would if hit by a boom gun round.

[jedi078]

Unless you want to argue an Arizona senator has more SDC than a juicer...

Senator Gifford is among the very few who have survived a gunshot to the head. Also she wasn't hit at point blank range like the juicer in the OP.