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Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:53 am**

My Gm and I (both ex military oursleves) don't change much about their skill selections tho' we allow threat recognition at the base level for the Lore Demons skill. We do run the CS military much like the US Army w/ automatic "Green to Gold" advancement for qualified enlisted troops.
We set their training level to "max" as it were, each base runs the same training regimen, but some times we have those who go that extra mile, i.e.; A CS technical officer who is very zealous about cleanliness (sister died due to dirty living conditions, the kind that breed disease). Also while many soldiers are uneducated, none of them are stupid and are expected to be proffesionals on & off the job.
A house rule I employ is to say that the body armor has a dumbed down version of a comabt computer in it, just enough to allow a soldier to recognize a pre-programmed demon or to record new sightings (essentailly a built in battle camera).

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:56 am**

"Each of you will receive the standard, substandard training which will result in your eventual derezzolution!"
'nuff said about the ignorant ILLITERATE yutz's trying to operate super-high-tech warmachines without being able to read or dooz teh matheez.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:17 am**

DhAkael wrote:"Each of you will receive the standard, substandard training which will result in your eventual derezzolution!"
'nuff said about the ignorant ILLITERATE yutz's trying to operate super-high-tech warmachines without being able to read or dooz teh matheez.

So? Just because they're illiterate doesn't mean they're stupid (i've seen much worse here on the boards, both in regards to intelligence and literacy), much of their training is hands on type stuff that doesn't need too much(if any) literacy, the exceptions to this are the officers and tech personnel (the ones who REALLY need to know how to read), but even the most basic soldier can still count even if they can't read.

Posted: **Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:37 pm**

Yeah I think there would be some basic recognition training of the most common threats. There would probably be a higher relaince on specialists though. That is one area I think is a weakness in the books. I know there are dog boys, but I don't think there is enough emphasis put on dog boys, psi stalkers and psychics integrated in to the CS armed forces. I doubt you'd see any patrol above the size of about a squad without at least one of those attached to it for supernatural threat detection.

I think there would be some basic lore/ID stuff in training, but not much. Too many threats, not enough time for indepth training, and the CS has lots and lots of specialists available to ID SN threats.

Also, I think there would be a much larger component of propoganda in CS training than there is in US training and truely regimented and formalized in to it. I think you'd find WWII German training to be a good idea of how that would work (lots of propaganda videos, posters, courses on proper political ettiquette (IE CS is numero uno, prosek is our father, etc, etc, etc)).

Posted: **Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:59 pm**

Green to gold advancement? Yo Keir... I don't thing that would work in a CS setting.
There are some jobs, quite a lot of them that require a modicum of administrative ability... filing reports, getting memos etc, that would not necessarioly be too practical to do 100% as audio/video documents. Ergo, they need literacy... problem is, only a small minority of CS population is at all literate, since education is actively discouraged, and learning to read as an adult without any background in it (like modern illiterates who learn as adult after failing to do so in school), is extremely hard. So, I guess there would be some kind of glass ceiling, and all ranks above Staff sergeant or Master sergeant would have to be filled with people belonging to favored categories, who got education because of their family, or who got picked to attend military schools as children.

Posted: **Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:43 pm**

hmm recently all the new topics are about arguments I feel we already talked about(well more often than usual I mean).
Is likely the training given by Coalition(and by most of advanced human armies) is structured aroudn the nugget that is the base soldier.
If you noticed all military occ have more than afew skill in common(natural as they are the "trick of the trade", you can't really call yourself a soldier if you don't know how to use an energy rifle). those are learned in roughly 10 weeks(at least comparing it to modern COmbat Training), This include learnign how to properly use weapson, physical exercise(more to build coordination, reflex and build endurance), Military hierarchy, teamwork and some basilar and pivotal piloting skills.
Then there are those who will continue, by their own choice or because they were choosen for it, for further trainign that will lead to SAMAS pilot(now I don't know how much it will last but think that 54 week is what it took to mdern pilot to learn how to fly....MANY aircrafts...so perhaps is less for SAMAS, as they have to learn to pilot less vehicles) or Techincal Officers.
Military Specialist is quite different, in that is sort of job wher eis not the soldier or officer who choose it, but rather he is choosen, and is not the sort of job you can talk or brag a lot about.
Coalition Psy-stalker and Dog boys receive a variant of the combat training of Grunt, tailored for their specific natural attitudes.
While for most part officers in Coalition come from base career, there would be officers schools. Now Officers either are specialized OCC(like Military Specialist, Techincal Officers, or even Special Forces), or simply are higly skilled Grunt(officers should be considered 3rd or 4th level Grunt in term of skills albeit as rule an officer is just qualified by not just his skill but his ability to lead a group of persons.)
Cyborgs are quite weird, because in theory they should not need OCC skills as they could come from any before conversion. But generally most armies(and generally anyone who pay for a combat cyborg conversion) grant some extra skills to fit the new purpose of the cyborg soldier, while some physical skills are likely calisthenics learned to help the new cyborg adapt to new body parts.
Hmm I missed something? Don't know.
Right now i'm kinda "cooked up" in tiredness.

Posted: **Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:00 pm**

Svartalf wrote:Green to gold advancement? Yo Keir... I don't thing that would work in a CS setting.
There are some jobs, quite a lot of them that require a modicum of administrative ability... filing reports, getting memos etc, that would not necessarioly be too practical to do 100% as audio/video documents. Ergo, they need literacy... problem is, only a small minority of CS population is at all literate, since education is actively discouraged, and learning to read as an adult without any background in it (like modern illiterates who learn as adult after failing to do so in school), is extremely hard. So, I guess there would be some kind of glass ceiling, and all ranks above Staff sergeant or Master sergeant would have to be filled with people belonging to favored categories, who got education because of their family, or who got picked to attend military schools as children.

You're right. My thought was that the soldiers who were the most oustanding would be the ones promoted and taught to read.

Posted: **Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:41 am**

Engineer1445 wrote:Hello,

My Group and I were running a campaign this weekend. During a break we started to discus military training and how it would be different for our PCs then it was for many of us. The US military trains you to do your MOS and Basic Soldier Tasks. I think these days they change it to Warrior Tasks. But don't quote me on it. So how does this pertain to Rifts Earth? Well it comes down to Lore skills. Since I would think the CS main opponents are Magic users, D-Bee's and all supernatural monsters. Wouldn't the CS give its troops basic skills to ID and defeat theses threats.

So my question is:

1) Do they provide a training course in treat reconnection?

No. They provide equipment. Most every suit of PA, vehicle /w radar, and robot has a foe designator with something like 30,000 known enemies in it.
Also, their training is relatively simple, "see that monster? Yeah; not human so kill it." "See that chump not in CS body armour shooting at us? Yeah, shoot back."

Engineer1445 wrote:a) If so the how do you quantify it?

This list of CS friend/foe is so narrow that it doesn't need to be. It's effectively "common" knowledge.

Engineer1445 wrote:2) Is the house rule that all CS military personal get 2 Lore skills based on local training/operating area. But this skill starts at half its base. So Lore:D-bee would start at 12%. Is this rule a good one? Or does anyone have a better suggestion.

This is a bad rule. It promotes the thought that the average CS grunt is getting to know stuff about his enemies, when they are on a "shoot first, burn the bodies immediately after" mentality. Basically only an officer would have something even close to that, and all that would extend to is something along the lines of, "that's a dragon, better bust out the DU rounds".

Also, the average CS grunt is spending all their time learning to pilot Tanks and Powered Armour. Readin's fer suckers.

Posted: **Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:08 am**

Dog_O_War wrote:
Engineer1445 wrote:1) Do they provide a training course in treat reconnection?

No. They provide equipment. Most every suit of PA, vehicle /w radar, and robot has a foe designator with something like 30,000 known enemies in it.

I totally agree. The CS would provide at most a two day seminar on "bad guy" recognition. Beyond the power armors and such as Dog_O_War noted, even the common soldier's standard body armor comes equipped with an "internal, voice actuated support computer and database" (CWC 100) allowing them to help ID the enemy by an optical interface (jacked in bionic eye or multi-optic eye-patch). And barring the optical interface, for whatever reason, the soldier can just verbally describe what he's looking at to the support computer to get the friend-or-foe feedback needed.

Engineer1445 wrote:a) If so the how do you quantify it?

I don't; however, a first level Grunt isn't expected to know everything from day one anyhow. Personally, I believe there's every reason to think the CS encourages on the job training. In game terms this would provide the basis for soldiers to later take skills like D-Bee Lore and Demons & Monsters Lore as they naturally advance in level. Grunts are, after all, free to select Technical skills without limit at a +5%.

Engineer1445 wrote:2) Is the house rule that all CS military personal get 2 Lore skills based on local training/operating area. But this skill starts at half its base. So Lore:D-bee would start at 12%. Is this rule a good one? Or does anyone have a better suggestion.

M'eh... you could play it that way if you really want. I myself am more keen on the OJT approach. Besides, it allows the character to more naturally evolve as more knowledge based skills are taken with age. Gives the kid a better long-term role playing feel... but that's just me.

Posted: **Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:34 am**

I agree with the functional illiteracy. I think the majority of CS citizens are functionally illiterate, with a relatively small number being completely illiterate and a slightly larger number being literate.

I'd personally give it numbers of 70% being functionally illiterate, 15% being completely illiterate and 15% being literate.

There is at least a basic educational system in the CS. If not, than society would completely collapse. You have to train engineers, scientists, etc at some point. This couldn't simply be reserved for the elite of the elite. You wouldn't have a large enough pool of trained engineers and other white collar workers to support the society. I agree that high levels of literacy and reading anything other than the propoganda material and official history books is verboten/actively discouraged, but some basic literacy has to be taught at some point.

Now, I'd imagine most of the population would have to sweat over reading a newspaper article, but most should be able to manage it, at least a simply written one that doesn't use big words.

I think in the CS military you would have specialists who are highly literate. These would be your clerks, officers, supply specialists, commisars (why the hell isn't it mentioned that there are commisars in the CS military, of course there would be!!!) most higher level non-coms would need to be fairly literate, etc. There would probably be some additional literacy training for those selected for such positions and recruits with higher levels of literacy coming in would probably be selected for those positions as well.

Posted: **Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:45 pm**

Spoiler:

MegaverseTraveller wrote:
keir451 wrote:
DhAkael wrote:"Each of you will receive the standard, substandard training which will result in your eventual derezzolution!"
'nuff said about the ignorant ILLITERATE yutz's trying to operate super-high-tech warmachines without being able to read or dooz teh matheez.
So? Just because they're illiterate doesn't mean they're stupid (i've seen much worse here on the boards, both in regards to intelligence and literacy), much of their training is hands on type stuff that doesn't need too much(if any) literacy, the exceptions to this are the officers and tech personnel (the ones who REALLY need to know how to read), but even the most basic soldier can still count even if they can't read.
I've always portrayed the average coalition citizen/soldier as functionally illiterate, which I would find far more likely in a society which utilizes advanced technology, rather than a purely illiterate. Pure illiteracy is generally characterized as a person whom cannot read or write in any capacity, for all practical purposes. In contrast functional illiteracy is defined as persons can read and possibly write simple sentences with a limited vocabulary, but is unable to manage daily living and employment tasks that require reading and writing skills beyond a basic level.

A real world example is the United States if you utilize the definition of pure illiteracy (age 15 or over can read and write), the United States is 99% literate, however if you utilize the definition of functional illiteracy (age 15 or over can't read or write to least at an eighth grade level of competency)* over 30% of the population is considered functionally illiterate and this percentage is growing at a rate of 1% annually (one reason being that it's estimated that 20% of graduating high school seniors are functionally illiterate). Studies in the field theorize that this partially due to poor teaching method, environmental, socioeconomic and familial factors coupled with a proliferation in entertainment options that don't require or encourage literacy.

I can easily see the general population of the coalition as a functionally illiterate society, digesting the state media produced videos, shows and movies with no apparent need to learn how read the written word since there are plenty of entertainment options that don't require it (in conjunction with the anti-literacy bias of the government). Since the vast majority of the population is unable to read more (and likely write less than they can read) than the 300 hundred common words which make of 75% of written English, most instructions, warnings, signs, etc., utilize only those most common words which are combined with standard set of pictograms.
keir451 wrote:A house rule I employ is to say that the body armor has a dumbed down version of a combat computer in it, just enough to allow a soldier to recognize a pre-programmed demon or to record new sightings (essentially a built in battle camera).
I've always had the deadboy include a combat cam with short range transmission capability and recording. The system also includes a recording of the biometric data of wearer (pulse, blood pressure and temperature). These recordings are inaccessible by soldiers and are downloaded upon their return from patrol. People are notoriously bad eyewitnesses so this would greatly simplify debriefings or after action reports and give the intelligence analyst's far more accurate data to go over, with the additional effect of providing video proof of kills, mission completion, etc.( transmission capability also allows some officers to effectively monitor their troops while "leading from the rear"). This recording system is usually one of the first thing "altered" by people reselling "used" deadboy armor.
azazel1024 wrote:I think there would be a much larger component of propaganda in CS training than there is in US training and truly regimented and formalized in to it. I think you'd find WWII German training to be a good idea of how that would work (lots of propaganda videos, posters, courses on proper political etiquette.
Unless things have radically changed, theirs quite enough propaganda in US military training as it is, especially if you attend one of the more combat oriented schools or advanced combat school.
The Baron of chaos wrote:While for most part officers in Coalition come from base career, there would be officers schools. Now Officers either are specialized OCC(like Military Specialist, Technical Officers, or even Special Forces), or simply are highly skilled Grunt(officers should be considered 3rd or 4th level Grunt in term of skills albeit as rule an officer is just qualified by not just his skill but his ability to lead a group of persons.)
Military Specialist are officers, Technical Officers are actually Technical Specialist and are actually low ranking NCOs (corporals), Special Operations Characters are also usually NCOs. Grunts ranging from enlisted through NCOs, unless an exceptional individual and they might make officer rank after a long career, I just don't see a lot of CS grunts pulling an Audie Murphy.

That's pretty much how I see the Coalition, functionally illiterate. The upper ecehelons see no need for the average citizen/soldiers to know more than what their superiors think is absolutely necessary. I've also found in real life that my local college is instituting Vocabulary and Math proficiency tests where there were none before (mayhaps more colleges are doing this).
The cam system in the suits is pretty much standard in games run by myself and my GM.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:21 am**

MegaverseTraveller wrote:
azazel1024 wrote:I think in the CS military you would have specialists who are highly literate. These would be your clerks, officers, supply specialists, commisars (why the hell isn't it mentioned that there are commisars in the CS military, of course there would be!!!)

When you speak of Commissars are you think in the sense of Political Officers or in the sense of Supply Officers and Commissaries as stores of provisions?
azazel1024 wrote:most higher level non-coms would need to be fairly literate, etc. There would probably be some additional literacy training for those selected for such positions and recruits with higher levels of literacy coming in would probably be selected for those positions as well.

You don't have to be very literate to be a good NCO, you just have to know you job and and have the respect of the men under your command. The method utilized to teach literacy affects the speed at which student can learn and improve their skills. Phonetic teaching is slower but has the benefit of a larger vocabulary, the Whole Language approach works faster but shrinks the usable vocabulary, a blended approach combines the two.

Yeah, political officers. I prefer using the soviet term, commisar for them. Mostly because when I think political officer, I think soviet commisar (or as I have heard them refered to in several writtings and else where, comik-stars in part because of the distored, comic like reality they like to pass along as reality).

For NCOs, unless they are different in the coalition than most militaries I have seen, they are going to have to write and read some basic reports from time to time. A lot more than an enlisted soldier would. I don't think NCOs would need a super high level of literacy, but the higher your NCO rank, the higher the amount of literacy you'd likely need. Officers would always need a lot more literacy than an NCO would though.

Just making things up, but I'd say the average private would need to be able to read at least on a 3rd grade level, low ranking NCO (Corporal/Seargant) around a 4-6th grade level, senior NCO (Staff Sgt. on up) a 5-8th grade level, and officer, logistics/supply specialist, personnel specialist, clerk, etc at least an 8th grade level absolute minimum if not much higher level (even if not college level of literacy).

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:03 am**

DhAkael wrote:"Each of you will receive the standard, substandard training which will result in your eventual derezzolution!"
'nuff said about the ignorant ILLITERATE yutz's trying to operate super-high-tech warmachines without being able to read or dooz teh matheez.

HA! This reminds me of the American Army...and the average belief that soldiers are stupid... whose replacement value is at least $25,000 for a general soldier with no specialization at all with approximately $17,000 of personal equipment...

For every skill, the cost goes up
For every year of experience the cost goes up
For vehicle crew, the cost goes up...a Bradley AFV costs about 3 million for a 3 man crew...so a million a piece if it is lost...
When soldiers die, they cost a lot of money too...

Just in the economic costs alone, the military really can't afford to hire stupid people...

But when you look at the complexity of the computers, the weapons, the electronics and the tactics needed to win, uneducated soldiers not only have 0 value added, they actually detract from the whole...

Oh well, off my soap box...

-STS

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:10 am**

In the case of the CS, and to a degree the US military, the is a difference between stupid and uneducated.

Also there is a difference between intuitive and intelligent. The later tends to have more authority issues, questions decisions, etc, etc.

Now I am not saying you can't have an intelligent soldier, I am just saying they aren't actively looking for geniuses in uniform unless they are talking about scientists, engineers or doctors. Maybe officers.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:50 pm**

I don't have CWC handy, but doesn't the new CS body armor have a built in optical reader or text-to-audio function?

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:17 am**

Mack wrote:I don't have CWC handy, but doesn't the new CS body armor have a built in optical reader or text-to-audio function?

See above posts by Dog-O-War and myself.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:08 am**

Actually, they don't... keep them in line by giving them the data one would get in writing through graphic symbols and color coding.
reading allows you to get information for yourself, and ultimately may lead you to questioning authority... ergo, it is evil.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:07 am**

But a general olligarical society where knowledge is kept among a relative few stagnates development and innovation radically. You don't have any of those "slum kids going off the college as the first one in their family and getting their PhD" success stories that you do places like the NGR (or, you know, most places in the real world).

The tiny number of CS citizens that are considered part of the elite who get a full (and real, if historically manipulated) education is so tiny there is no way the CS would realistically be able to meet all of its needs for trained engineers, scientists, computer programmers, project manager, military officers, clerks, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

It just isn't possible.

Could you have a smallish lower class that is intentionally stagnated and not educated, sure, but since the CS is made up of 95% "lower class" basically, there is no way the tiny educated class could support the nation.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:46 pm**

That means the elite is likely larger than you think... possibly like 20% of the population.
Plus, possibly, non elite families of provable devotion to the regime, like those of enlisted military personnel, likely get options to send their brighter kids to real school so they can move up in the world and supply the needed numbers of engineers, doctors and other scientists.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:55 pm**

Maybe, but that isn't how the CS is described in the books.

Look at a place like the US though. We have something like 98% of the population as functionally litterate and probably over 80% truely litterate. The average level of education is slightly above a high school level with more than half the population with at least "some college" and nearly half the population with a college education.

I can't even imagine trying to create a functional advanced society that is going to attempt to advance itself as fast as possible to counter the "Dee Bee" threat with the low amount of litteracy and education in the CS.

Honestly I just picture the CS as more like WWII Germany or Soviet Russia. Most people are educated to some degree (lower level than either of these two examples though), but in state schools. State schools means propoganda from the time you can pick up a crayon until grave. History is doctored or not mentioned ("lost" is a frequent explination). The leadership is not questioned (because they are beyond question/reproach). The CS is the only civilized power with other human powers at least misguided (especially if the consort with Dee Bees) or maybe wayward in the case of the FQ and NGR and are at worst deluded monsters in human clothing consorting with the devil (Lazlo, New Lazlo, etc).

There being enough impirical evidence that is played up for all it is worth by state television and propoganda of vicious Dee Bee and monster attacks and the heroic armed forces of the CS being the only thing keeping everyone from being eaten or enslaved by the monsters slavering at the very gates of the mighty fortress cities of the coalition even now.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:47 pm**

Try thinking on the lines of 1984 or Brave New World... those seemed to work with a huge majority of illiterate and uncultured workers.

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:55 am**

azazel1024 wrote:But a general olligarical society where knowledge is kept among a relative few stagnates development and innovation radically. You don't have any of those "slum kids going off the college as the first one in their family and getting their PhD" success stories that you do places like the NGR (or, you know, most places in the real world).

They have that... just a bit different. In the CS you have success stories where little Johnny grows up in the 'burbs, beating rats for dinner, then comes of age and joins the CS Army. In the military Johnny excels, earns citizenship for himself and immediate family (by getting them on the fast track list), and goes on to Officer Candidate School. After that, Johnny serves with distinction, is permitted to attend the Chi-Town War College, where thereafter he rises to the rank of general, growing in fortune and power. After retiring from military service, Johnny becomes a successful business man with operations in the 'burbs and inside the fortress city, and has single-handedly elevated his family from the dirt to prominence among the Chi-Town elite.

Posted: **Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:59 am**

Of course, that's complete propaganda, because burb johnny is exceedingly unlikely to rise above master sergeant, and if he happens to deserve promotion above that based on service record, it's not likely he'll be able to master the new set of skills required (unless he's a complete genius or was a secret literate beforehand)... he'll still have earned citizenship for his family, though.

Posted: **Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:59 pm**

I guess I was mixing up my terms of pure literacy and functional literacy. I could see most of the society being fuctionally at about a grade school level of literacy and basic math. A relatively small number, maybe 15-30% are educated to any kind of literacy or real education above about an 8th grade level. Most of those are the elite citizens, but others are people who were spotted relatively early in their state education career who were identified as smart enough with the proper personality to be trained as engineers, scientists, etc. Preferably with the proper personality and temperment to be co-opted by propoganda machine. Those that have the personality to be rebillious are either still educated, but kept under the thumb of state security with fewer freedoms than others have or are actively discouraged from further education by either withholding it, institutional discouragement, psychological influence, etc.

All the other proles/progs end their "real" education (learning math, reading, writing, sciences, etc) around age 8-10. After that they stay in state schools till they are around age 16 or so. The rest is propoganda, official history classes (obviously focusing more on movies, visual media than reading the histories) and selected job training programs.

A few manage to make it through and gain true educations and turn rebellious by hidding their real intentions/personalities at a young age (ever watch Equillibrium? I also picture elements of this, especially with the Bale's kids in the movie, when it comes to hidding "from the system" at an early age).

Posted: **Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:14 pm**

Yeah... you forget that the primary crime for which rogue scholars are persecuted is not ownership of forbidden books, or even disagreeing with the regime... the thing for which they are stomped on hardest is teaching people to read.

which means that
a) there are people who are illiterate
b) the state wants them to stay that way.

it's not a matter of keeping the rebellious off controversial material, it's a matter of making sure nobody can ever get to read or hear about the controversial material, thereby suppressing oportunities for rebelliousness to develop in them.

Posted: **Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:52 pm**

Svartalf wrote:Yeah... you forget that the primary crime for which rogue scholars are persecuted is not ownership of forbidden books, or even disagreeing with the regime... the thing for which they are stomped on hardest is teaching people to read.

I would disagree insofar as it's not that they are 'just' teaching people how to read, but that they are teaching actual information and subjects at the same time. Like History that doesn't mesh with the Coalition Approved version, or philosophy like 'all creatures have merit'. THAT's what the CS is so bent about. Rogue Scholars threaten the CS's control of information. If the CS had absolute, iron clad control over the material that was available to its citizens at all times, I don't think they'd really have a problem with people learning how to read. But since that is nearly impossible, it is much easier to institute a policy of convincing people "You don't need to learn how to read. We'll tell you everything you want to know about it (After we do some editing.)"

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:06 pm**

remember your 1984

Teaching somebody something : if that body is dependant on content providers to distillate the info into him... well, if you can reprogram the somebody with the "correct" set of data, you can still make him into a normal citizen again

Now, if you've taught that person how to get info for themselves, and to compare sources and to think critically (independant of actual content of your teachings), then, that person will always look twice at what he's told, and the reprogramming won't be as easy or successful, and the state can't ever trust that person not to be subversive.

It's not just the content, it's the very ability to get information and think for oneself that is to be squashed down.

Sure, telling them the Erin Tarn, Tolkeen and Lazlo versions of things is bad, but it's teaching them how to read those forbidden books that's the worst crime. It's been made painfully clear many times that the CS' war versus educated people is not just against the educated, it's against education itself, since their reasoning is that an educated person than think for himself, and that is the unforgivable crime. Education in the CS must be given by the state, and the state only, and teaching the people with the tools they might use to educate themselves is anathema, unless those people will be supervised closely to make sure they stay loyal.

As it is, in a fascist society like the CS, reading is too subversive a skill to let the common people have it.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:05 pm**

I still really can't see the CS hunting down its own citizens (or denying citizenship to someone who has skills they might otherwise want,) just for being literate. They are supposed to be the 'Last hope for humanity' after all, and I imagine that they would want the citizens to at least have the illusion that they have freedoms and privileges. I really see the CS using a more 'soft touch' approach to discourage literacy. They actively promote the 'ease' of gaining information through vids and audio rather than having to go through the 'time consuming bother' of reading. IMO, they wouldn't kick down your door and arrest you for being a known 'Reader', unless they recieved a tip that you have something like a pre-rifts copy of 1984. Heck, even then, if you can successfully convince them that you are a loyal citizen who was just a little curious, they may just confiscate the contraband material, fine you and send you off with a stern warning and a "We'll be watching you."

But then, I admit that my view of the CS isn't as 'evil fascist regime that crushes anything different and guns down scholars' as many folk on the forums. Sure, the CS will never, ever, condone magic, but Psionic ability (and by extension "super powers" in my games) are more of a grey area. If the human possessing such abilities proves themselves to be capable and loyal citizens of the Coalition, he can be made useful to the CS in one capacity or another. They'll never see anything non-human as being equal or worthy of having any real rights, but they do make non-human creatures to serve them (dog boys), and there is also canon material supporting some CS citizens using D-Bees as cheap labor (somewhere in the CWC, I don't have my books with me).

So, while I agree that they actively try to discourage literacy, I don't believe they are hunting down and putting CS citizens against a wall just for being able to read. IMHO, that is just a foolish waste of potential resources. (I know, I know, that's what the CS is known for, but like I say, I play them a bit different.

)

That's really all I've got to say on that subject.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:02 pm**

Well, denying citizenship to the literate : not necessarily, but that person would be vetted with a molecular scale fine toothed comb to make sure they were not letting the proverbial fox in the henhouse.

Similarly, a citizen who learned to read without state sanction would not be executed... he'd probably bbe sent to a reeducation camp, or enlisted as a private in the army, or shiven a janitorial job and 5-10 years house arrest... but he'd be branded a potential/low level traitor and could kiss goodbye to any chance of getting anywhere near a sensitive position, and the next offence (like possession of forbidden material) would likely indeed result in execution.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:39 pm**

You know, the only time I think a CS soldier would have trouble with enemy recognition is if the enemy in question is using skeletal motifs themselves or they are in an urban setting. They got a pretty solid visual style going with their vehicles, armor, and even weapons.

Posted: **Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:50 pm**

Engineer1445 wrote:So my question is:
1) Do they provide a training course in treat reconnection?

Yes. This is how they train the Dog Boys to behave and perform tricks.

a) If so the how do you quantify it?

Generally, it works like this:
Yellow Treats = Chicken Flavored
Brown Treats = Pot Roast Flavored
Red Treats = Salmon Flavored
Tan Treats = Liver Flavored
Gold/Sparkley Treats = Pixie Flavored

Posted: **Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:19 am**

Svartalf wrote:Yeah... you forget that the primary crime for which rogue scholars are persecuted is not ownership of forbidden books, or even disagreeing with the regime... the thing for which they are stomped on hardest is teaching people to read.

Hm.
Where does it say that?

Posted: **Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:06 am**

I'd have to go through RMB and CWC to find it again... or maybe that's just a couple pieces that clicked nicely that way.
Teaching CS people to read as a major crime would be in the RMB already.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:55 am**

MegaverseTraveller wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Of course, that's complete propaganda, because burb johnny is exceedingly unlikely to rise above master sergeant, and if he happens to deserve promotion above that based on service record, it's not likely he'll be able to master the new set of skills required (unless he's a complete genius or was a secret literate beforehand)... he'll still have earned citizenship for his family, though.

Amen! You nailed it. <Turns the propaganda machine into high gear>

Read General Droge's bio from SOT. Gutter trash to CS High Command. ... It happens.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:39 am**

As you pointed out, it is thinking critically that is the issue. Reading doesn't simply instill that ability. Nor does education. Of course the "right" education will instill that. However, in a highly controlled and regimented society critical thinking can be pretty well stamped on and damped will still providing the rudiments of an education including reading and math. Just strip out anything that doesn't provide those basics, throw in lots of propoganda and official history, discourage asking questions in classes, avoid assignments that are anything other than regurgitation of taught information (no analyzing here man!), etc.

I agree that scientists and to a lesser degree engineers would be taught critical thinking (a lot of rote engineering can be done without being inventive, just plug the puzzle pieces together to get the system you want. Not saying all engineering can be done that way, but you can make new systems with existing tech without doing a lot of inventing). You'd also have that small group heavily monitored and controlled.

Posted: **Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:59 pm**

DhAkael wrote:"Each of you will receive the standard, substandard training which will result in your eventual derezzolution!"

My comment still stands.
back in the day of pike, axe & arrow (and later, Musket)? Sure.
In a high-tech military force using multi-million dollar / credit war-gear?
Not likely.
Thus the extremely high numbers of CS casulties per engagement.

Posted: **Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:49 pm**

DhAkael wrote:"Each of you will receive the standard, substandard training which will result in your eventual derezzolution!"
'nuff said about the ignorant ILLITERATE yutz's trying to operate super-high-tech warmachines without being able to read or dooz teh matheez.

Just because You're illiterate does NOT mean you're an idiot. I have noticed that more and more people of today are not literate so much as they are ICONERATE. In case you don't know what that means, it is the understanding of PICTURES rather than the written words. They cannot read the word "danger" but they can certainly understand the skull and crossbones symbol, and they are advanced enough that they can use voice commands in most computers rather than type. They can even use voice to do reports as well. So yes, a Coalition solder can use those super high-tech war machines and power armor without being able to read. Something to think about.

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:42 pm**

more and more i read some of these posts, i realize most of the anti-coalition people dont even know the coalition a number of the CS OCC have literacy, and not every CS soldier who reads erin tarn's book is going to go awol over it.

As for training as i see it
7 weeks to 50 weeks depending on the OCC
remember some of the occs are equal to the US counter parts

besides military is easy to follow, so with slide show, video, trainer, hands on training, and drills, you have a Trained CS soldier.

Posted: **Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:17 pm**

Old One Eye wrote:With super advanced futuristic A/V technology and other forms of digital interface that we can hardly imagine with our 21st century mindset, I would suspect that the written word is about as obselete as a rotary phone is to us today. Sure there is high illiteracy, but it is only Tarn propaganda that makes it seem important.

That futuristic technology isn't going to make the written word obsolete because that ability to store information like that makes it resistant to tampering and change. Digital technology is progressing to the point that you can make fake images that will meet all tests of veracity and the only way to know that they're fake is if there's an element in them (like say ET in the background) that's obviously not real as no amount of digital analysis will detect the falseness of the image.

Posted: **Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:10 am**

Nightmask wrote:
Old One Eye wrote:With super advanced futuristic A/V technology and other forms of digital interface that we can hardly imagine with our 21st century mindset, I would suspect that the written word is about as obselete as a rotary phone is to us today. Sure there is high illiteracy, but it is only Tarn propaganda that makes it seem important.

That futuristic technology isn't going to make the written word obsolete because that ability to store information like that makes it resistant to tampering and change. Digital technology is progressing to the point that you can make fake images that will meet all tests of veracity and the only way to know that they're fake is if there's an element in them (like say ET in the background) that's obviously not real as no amount of digital analysis will detect the falseness of the image.

Actually there is still the little tell-tales an expert can find. For instance, a digitally inserted image will always have a pixelated fringe that can be seen when magnified.

Even so, I can't see a world where the written word becomes obsolete. Complex information cannot be conveyed by icons and such alone. Sure, you can make the illiterate functional like the kids working a McDonalds cash-register, but more complex jobs required literacy in some kind of language. And though it is already possible to automate even the most complex manufacturing, someone has to be smart/learned enough to make and later maintain the machines.

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